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powerof0ne
24th April 2006, 16:20
Does it belong here or in Traditional? From my own exposure to this style I have not been impressed but I am open to the idea of good Isshin Ryu karateka, just highly doubtful of them in the PNW area of the USA. I'm not putting down the whole Isshin Ryu system now, I'm just wondering why so many high ranking Isshin Ryu black belt exist? Why their form doesn't seem too good(the ones in WA state, anyway)? The whole verticle tsuki debate has been talked about to death.
I'm sorry if I'm borderline violating an e-budo rule by bringing this up but I'm really wondering if this could be considered "traditional" karate?

Discipulus
27th April 2006, 06:35
Alright - here is the breakdown as best as I can give it... *deep breath*

A) Isshin-Ryu is a young art. The founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku, still has students alive who took from him directly.

B) There was a 3-way schism in the art. What I am about to say is rather inflamitory towards many "practioneers" of the form, but sadly after much research, I believe it to be true...

The schism went as follows: The first faction is the Eastern faction, then there is the western faction, then there is the traditionalist faction.

The Eastern Faction is led presently by Kichiro Shimabuku, son of Tatsuo - the founder of the form. He is, as per what I have been told, no credit to the art. In the most recent records of legit martial arts styles, concerning Isshin-Ryu, it says only "Kichiro Shimabuku was too important and busy to comment on his art form to us." and that is all. Kichiro has been discribed to me by some who have met him as "...a round, self-important little man who is a dishonor to his father's memory." Upon taking over the art from his father, he incorporated MANY things which are completely contrary to the art and spirit of Isshin-Ryu.

The Western Faction, is led by an Isshin-Ryu council. I will not drop names of people here, as it is dishonorable to speak ill of the deceased - but here is the breakdown of what happened with them. Two of Tatsuo's students left Japan as 1st Dans, and when their boats landed in America, they were suddenly 9th dans. They formed a council which confered the "official" title of 9th dan on them, then they turned around and, being 9th dans, confered the title of 8th dan on every member of the council. They affirm Kichiro as 10th dan, and their Master Shihan. Amazingly, within the last 40 years, more black belts have sprung up in "American Isshin-Ryu" than earth quakes in the history of Japan since its formation... Sadly, these are the majority.

The traditionalist faction follows what is called "Pure Isshin-Ryu" and are VERY rare to find. There is no 9th dan within this path. To be honest, rank means very little next to honor and integrity. This is the only path that adheres to Tatsuo Shimabuku's Christian (that's right, the founder was a protestant Christian) teachings that have been completely brushed under the rug by the mainstream in favor of his interest in metaphysics, fortune telling, and geomancy when he was young. :cry: The highest rank in the traditionalist faction is 7th dan, and belongs to A.J. Advincula. He was given instruction on how to self-promote from his sensi (Tatsuo Shimabuku, the founder) when he left Japan to return to the U.S. He has not taken advantage of the right to do so, however, stating that "7th dan was the last rank confered upon me by my Sensi, and I can't see any honor in being any rank higher than what he gave me. I'd rather die a 7th dan confered by the founder than given the rank of 10th dan by anyone, anywhere." He said this in reply to the US Isshinryu's Council's offer to make him Shihan. He has refused this organization and all their appealing offeres many times.

The core of what Isshinryu is about is this: Practicle Defense that works. There aren't many pretty moves or cool looking Katas in Isshinryu. It is, at its heart and soul, Okinowan Streetfighting. Most martial arts, taken to a street fight, don't work out so well (unless they are very potent or the student is VERY dedicated). Isshinryu takes the most simple and quick practices from every art available and makes one art that is useful for defending your life and the lives of others. It is a hard/soft form, and defensive only. All offense springs from defense. Within the traditionalist path, there are only 8 generations. I am 7th generation, and can go back 7 steps and hit Tatsuo Shimabuku himself. The other two factions are up to, I think, 78th gen, or some craziness.

If you wish to take Isshinryu or study it, the rule of Caveat Impetor is in FULL effect. Be advised, MOST of what you find will be total crap. That said, I do know for a fact that a student who had taken Isshinryu for three months was jumped by a student of Akido who had taken for years. The Akido student wound up in the hospital three moves into the fight. Isshinryu is meant to shut down the enemy as quick as possible. The rule is "No fight should last more than two hits - three if you must first block." Within three hits, the enemy should be disabled, broken, in need of serious medical attention, or dead. Period. Before you learn ANYTHING, you are taught that for every move, every motion you learn, there can and will be eternal consequence.

If anyone wants more information on traditionalist Isshin-Ryu, I would be happy to answer all I can, or refer you to those who can.

We all know that there are false practioneers out there of whatever form we take - sadly, where Isshinryu is concerned, they are the majority. When once asked why he didn't set the record straight, Shihan Advincula said, "What's the point? The asses will still brae as they will, so let them brae, it doesn't change the truth you know."

As for where the thread belongs, it is a traditional Japanese style originating from Okinawa, and is easily traced back to a Japanese founder - but it is very young, so it may belong elsewhere.

I hope this has helped!
Ryan Brown

powerof0ne
27th April 2006, 13:55
Thanks for the info, I was aware of Advincula but under the impression that there aren't as many people under him. I had a conversation with a gentleman that received his rank from Steve Armstrong that has since "switched" to Advincula, but I'm still not so sure. From I have read about Advincula, I definitely respect him but I think like you said, it's hard to find many Isshin Ryu dojo that are really from Advincula.

wsteigner
27th April 2006, 15:49
hi Just some add on info about Isshinryu and Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei.
Not to air bad things but to help keep the facts as fact. We can all do more research on our ryu and add to this history.
thanks bill PS Iam wls: in the answer


Alright - here is the breakdown as best as I can give it... *deep breath*

A) Isshin-Ryu is a young art. The founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku, still has students alive who took from him directly.
wls: True

B) There was a 3-way schism in the art. What I am about to say is rather inflamitory towards many "practioneers" of the form, but sadly after much research, I believe it to be true...

wls: please do more research. Attend an Advincula Sensei seminar a very
good source of Isshinryu history.

The schism went as follows: The first faction is the Eastern faction, then there is the western faction, then there is the traditionalist faction.

wls:may very well be more splits in the Eastern and Western factions.

The Eastern Faction is led presently by Kichiro Shimabuku, son of Tatsuo - the founder of the form. He is, as per what I have been told, no credit to the art. In the most recent records of legit martial arts styles, concerning Isshin-Ryu, it says only "Kichiro Shimabuku was too important and busy to comment on his art form to us." and that is all. Kichiro has been discribed to me by some who have met him as "...a round, self-important little man who is a dishonor to his father's memory." Upon taking over the art from his father, he incorporated MANY things which are completely contrary to the art and spirit of Isshin-Ryu.

wls: please an example of what he incorporated contrary to Isshinryu.

The Western Faction, is led by an Isshin-Ryu council. I will not drop names of people here, as it is dishonorable to speak ill of the deceased - but here is the breakdown of what happened with them. Two of Tatsuo's students left Japan as 1st Dans, and when their boats landed in America, they were suddenly 9th dans. They formed a council which confered the "official" title of 9th dan on them, then they turned around and, being 9th dans, confered the title of 8th dan on every member of the council. They affirm Kichiro as 10th dan, and their Master Shihan. Amazingly, within the last 40 years, more black belts have sprung up in "American Isshin-Ryu" than earth quakes in the history of Japan since its formation... Sadly, these are the majority.

wls: No council affirmed Shimabuku Kichiro as Shihan, He took over as was his
right as 1st son. His IWKA was formed before Shimabuku Tatsuo died.
much more research need here. Many were entrusted with Rokudan,
some put it on when they returned to the states some did not and waited
for the time frames in Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei AOKA.

The traditionalist faction follows what is called "Pure Isshin-Ryu" and are VERY rare to find. There is no 9th dan within this path. To be honest, rank means very little next to honor and integrity. This is the only path that adheres to Tatsuo Shimabuku's Christian (that's right, the founder was a protestant Christian) teachings that have been completely brushed under the rug by the mainstream in favor of his interest in metaphysics, fortune telling, and geomancy when he was young. :cry: The highest rank in the traditionalist faction is 7th dan, and belongs to A.J. Advincula. He was given instruction on how to self-promote from his sensi (Tatsuo Shimabuku, the founder) when he left Japan to return to the U.S. He has not taken advantage of the right to do so, however, stating that "7th dan was the last rank confered upon me by my Sensi, and I can't see any honor in being any rank higher than what he gave me. I'd rather die a 7th dan confered by the founder than given the rank of 10th dan by anyone, anywhere." He said this in reply to the US Isshinryu's Council's offer to make him Shihan. He has refused this organization and all their appealing offeres many times.



The core of what Isshinryu is about is this: Practicle Defense that works. There aren't many pretty moves or cool looking Katas in Isshinryu. It is, at its heart and soul, Okinowan Streetfighting. Most martial arts, taken to a street fight, don't work out so well (unless they are very potent or the student is VERY dedicated). Isshinryu takes the most simple and quick practices from every art available and makes one art that is useful for defending your life and the lives of others. It is a hard/soft form, and defensive only. All offense springs from defense. Within the traditionalist path, there are only 8 generations. I am 7th generation, and can go back 7 steps and hit Tatsuo Shimabuku himself. The other two factions are up to, I think, 78th gen, or some craziness.

If you wish to take Isshinryu or study it, the rule of Caveat Impetor is in FULL effect. Be advised, MOST of what you find will be total crap. That said, I do know for a fact that a student who had taken Isshinryu for three months was jumped by a student of Akido who had taken for years. The Akido student wound up in the hospital three moves into the fight. Isshinryu is meant to shut down the enemy as quick as possible. The rule is "No fight should last more than two hits - three if you must first block." Within three hits, the enemy should be disabled, broken, in need of serious medical attention, or dead. Period. Before you learn ANYTHING, you are taught that for every move, every motion you learn, there can and will be eternal consequence.

wls: Dont know that Isshinryu is different than other Ryu in your above
statement.

If anyone wants more information on traditionalist Isshin-Ryu, I would be happy to answer all I can, or refer you to those who can.

We all know that there are false practioneers out there of whatever form we take - sadly, where Isshinryu is concerned, they are the majority. When once asked why he didn't set the record straight, Shihan Advincula said, "What's the point? The asses will still brae as they will, so let them brae, it doesn't change the truth you know."

As for where the thread belongs, it is a traditional Japanese style originating from Okinawa, and is easily traced back to a Japanese founder - but it is very young, so it may belong elsewhere.

wls: Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei was many thing in his life but above all else
he was Okinawan and if you could understand his Okinawan Culture,
you have a much better chance to understand his Isshinryu.

thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai



I hope this has helped!
Ryan Brown

Discipulus
27th April 2006, 17:41
If anyone wishes to find an Advincula dojo, I have the entire lineage recorded, as well as his teachings in writen format as well as DVD. Anyone who is interested in a Dojo in his lineage, let me know and I will happily give you a list of students, practioneers, and dojos. I will post again on Isshinryu as well as Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensi at length within the week. First, I am going to contact my Sensi and make sure all my facts are straight.
Thanks,
Ryan Brown

Joseph Svinth
28th April 2006, 03:45
You mean those direct ties from Steve Armstrong to Ed Parker to Elvis do not represent the be-all and end-all in True Karate? Dang.

Brian -- If you want insight into Karate in the Old Days, you might look up Ernie Brennecke and Morris Mack over in Yakima. They're a lot easier to find than Reuter's guys.

powerof0ne
28th April 2006, 05:16
I will do as you say and look up more info on those gentleman but I guess I have a question regarding Morris Mack. A female that I know that used to study Shudokan told me that Mack "added" 5 more pinan, making pinan roku-jyu? I don't know how true this is, but just wondering if it's true or not.

Joseph Svinth
28th April 2006, 07:11
I don't know. I've never met or corresponded with Mack, but he's been around forever.

Ernie Brennecke, I've met once and corresponded with a few times. He's one of Morio Higaonna's earliest students, having started with Higaonna in Japan while he was still in the USAF. Anyway, he took second (to Joe Lewis) in the men's black belt division during the first of those Steve Armstrong tournaments at the Seattle Center. The next year, Lewis got blown out in the sparring (some Goju guy from Tacoma beat him), so as far as I know, Lewis never came back to Seattle again.

IchiRiKen1
28th April 2006, 14:19
If you are interested in seeing some Isshinryu that'll really turn your head, attend one of Mr. John Kerker's seminars with Mr. George Shin's dojo in Puyallup.

Mr. Kerker is a long time friend of mine; I've known him for over 20 years. He was a Yiliquan senior, moved, and ended up training at Mr. Sherman Harrill's dojo. "Uncle Sherm" was a close friend of my teacher's, and we have always had a great deal of respect for him. When Uncle Sherm died a few years back, Mr. Kerker took over his dojo and his seminars.

Seriously, if you attend one of his seminars you will not be disappointed. For that matter, you'll get to see me get the stuffing knocked clean out many, many times! Mr. Kerker routinely uses me as uke, and you'll get to see just what some of his techniques can do to a short little fat guy... :)

Mr. Kerker will be doing a seminar in Redmond, WA, on 23 September 2006, at Mr. Jeremy Johnson's dojo. His website is www.oneheartkarate.com, but I don't know if there are any updates on this seminar yet or not.

Hope to see you there!

smclain3
10th May 2006, 11:48
I am a Black Belt in Isshinryu and would like to respond to the statements made above. THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT BUYER BEWARE SHOULD BE THE FIRST CONCERN TO ANYONE WHO IS STARTING TO TRAIN IN MARTIAL ARTS. There are a lot of rip- offs out there in all styles sadly, and there are some in Isshinryu.

Isshinryu is in fact a very good system of self defense when taught by a good instructor.
I do not know about the rest of the country but in the Southeast Isshinryu is strong and has a good following.

We have some very talented instructors and some very good competitors in the Southh and I would put them up against anyone.

Like always everyone has an opinion and that goes for "Masters " as well and there is always 3 sides to every story their side, your side and the real truth.

smclain3
TN

wsteigner
10th May 2006, 15:01
It is great that you are a Black Belt in Isshinryu but what is your point in the
msg. Is something wrong with Shin Sensei Dojo having a seminar? Is it
because Kerker Sensei is giving the seminar? Or is this just a general warning
to the masses. Both of the Isshinryu sensei above are very reputable
within the Isshinryu community. So i guess i just dont get the point of your
msg. Sorry
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

]

powerof0ne
10th May 2006, 18:21
Like always everyone has an opinion and that goes for "Masters " as well and there is always 3 sides to every story their side, your side and the real truth.


What's the other side? I only see two sides that you gave an example to. What happens when "your side" is the real truth and the master's side isn't?
I'll tell you what usually happens, nothing, unfortunately.

smclain3
11th May 2006, 00:23
What I am trying to say is that it is unfair to judge a style by one school. I would suggest that you go and attend a seminar or try a school.
Isshinryu is a very good system and I would reccomend it to anyone.

You can find more information about Isshinryu schools in your area by going to :
www.iika.com
www.usika.com
www.oaka.com
www.eisshinryu.com

These are a place to start

On my earlier post I simply wanted to issue a general warning about all styles of martial arts. I am not familiar with any of the Masters mentioned, so I can not speak on their qualifications.

Sam
Tn

Nadelman
11th May 2006, 03:26
In the most recent records of legit martial arts styles, concerning Isshin-Ryu, it says only "Kichiro Shimabuku was too important and busy to comment on his art form to us." and that is all. Kichiro has been discribed to me by some who have met him as "...a round, self-important little man who is a dishonor to his father's memory."

Actually, this was a quote from a single book on Okinawan Martial Arts that I read (I will post later when I can locate the exact quote). Those who I know who have met him and trained with him have a high respect for him and say he has been greatly misunderstood. He is a quiet man who does not like the spotlight. Perpetuating negative stereotypes is NOT within the spirit of Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei, especially about the son whom HE entrusted to take over.


Upon taking over the art from his father, he incorporated MANY things which are completely contrary to the art and spirit of Isshin-Ryu.

Like what for example? You know, there are many people who have first hand knowledge of Kichiro, who know him personally and who would completely disagree with you on this.

As I said before, this started as a family argument. None of us know what really happened. So, it is really unfair to come to any conclusions. These rifts have manifested themselves in many of the associations. This is a shame. However, I am unaware of anyone in Kichiro's IWKA who perpetuate these things.

There are many likeminded people in Isshinryu who are from different associations who are trying to bring the "families" back together. Many train together, go to "Isshinryu" tournaments together, and have strong relationships.

This is the true spirit of Shimabuku Tatsuo Sensei. To this end we should be working. This is what Sensei would have wanted - One Heart Way.

powerof0ne
12th May 2006, 08:13
What I am trying to say is that it is unfair to judge a style by one school. I would suggest that you go and attend a seminar or try a school.
Isshinryu is a very good system and I would reccomend it to anyone.

You can find more information about Isshinryu schools in your area by going to :
www.iika.com
www.usika.com
www.oaka.com
www.eisshinryu.com

These are a place to start

On my earlier post I simply wanted to issue a general warning about all styles of martial arts. I am not familiar with any of the Masters mentioned, so I can not speak on their qualifications.

Sam
Tn

I was talking about my own experience with Isshin Ryu, primarily in the pacific northwest, and this has to do with more then one school. Most of them haven't been that great. I learned a long time ago to not judge an entire style by one school and I am very open to the idea of good Isshin Ryu and I think it exists, I just haven't really seen it here in WA.
I have my own opinions and judge different then many people do. For one, I really don't like point sparring and see no use for it for anyone that is an adult. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Brian Owens
14th May 2006, 02:15
...what is your point in the msg. Is something wrong with Shin Sensei Dojo having a seminar? Is it because Kerker Sensei is giving the seminar? Or is this just a general warning to the masses.

...i guess i just dont get the point of your msg. Sorry
It appeared to me to be a response to the general tone of the thread. It didn't seem to have anything specific to do with your post, having been posted 10 days after yours.

I think if you start at the top of the thread again, and read the first few posts (and especially the 2nd), you'll see what smclain3 was responding to.

HTH.

Victor Smith
14th May 2006, 22:18
Hi Brian,

There is no simple way to characterize Isshinryu across the United States. It didn't spread in any one way, but rather each Marine who returned from Okinawa who choose to pass the art did so on their own.

Some joined with others, some remained on their own. They trained for different periods of time, longer in the late 50's early 60's, shorter as Vietnam took over the horizon. They covered different material by their training, by the instructors work on his system, and by what they remembered, for the system was taught in the normal Okinawan method, hands on, not by books, movies or other means.

Only a hand full had more than 1 yr, to 1 1/2 years training.

Doesnt' sound like much, but they literally started karate in many portions of the states, and what they represent covers an extremly wide range of material and viewpoints.

Politics, participation or not, became one of the early stumbling blocks. And as much on Okinawa from what I understand. Isshinryu's founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo, lost many Okinawan students for teaching the Americans, and on the devisiveness of the systems succession when his son took over the reins.

Different groups within Isshinryu hold different opinions about who should be in charge. The last time I looked, nobody really has won.

On Okinawa, Isshinryu has a very small presence, I've only heard of 3 dojo remaining. The Isshinryu that is presented in the States, is solidly based on Shimabuku Tatsuo's teachings but a case can be made that the system has almost left Okinawa. I can't prove or disprove, simply the next 50 years will prove it. Personally I hope it does remain strong on Okinawa, but practicing Isshinryu for 33 years I'm more than a little prejudiced.

As for rank, well when Isshinryu was formed in the mid 50's, was the same time rank was being passed out on Okinawan in any case. Shimabuku, creating his own system, obviously didn't feel he had to ask anyone's permission how he awarded rank. There is a logical case, practicing most of his life without rank anyways, did he really think rank had much merit. If it made students feel good perhaps it was a good idea.

In any case his teachings have preservered in literally hundreds of American dojo.

Now as there is literally no universally approved Isshinryu organization, each developed their own standards. And yes today there are many times many 9th and 10 dans, which I have come to accept, fully, as the originators of American Karate taking the time to recognize themselves.

Is that bad, is that good? THey're not 25 year old 9th dans, most have practice about 40+ years. What they've created has passed to their students.

In all cases, rank really is just a Japanese confidence trick, that from my perspective didn't work in Japan. Why did Funakoshi a few years after in Japan find many karate systems he had never heard of? Or why did so many keep breaking away forming their own systems.

Give me a break, rank envy or desire has always been there.

Of course Japan thought they had some rules. THe rest of the world understood there are no rules, and volia...... the curren era.

Isshinryu is very worthy and Isshinryu may be very much less. It depends on where you look.

Just a personal note, George Shin is a true martial gentleman, and his hosting John Kerker is not a plug for anything. John is a student of the late Sherman Harrill, who trained in Okinawa alongside my original instructor, Tom Lewis.

Sherman spent the rest of his life working on the application potential (bunkai for lack of a stronger word) of kata technique. He literally tore a technique apart into uncountable applications all of which drop people very quickly.

I've seen many efficient martial artists, but if someone really wants to know how their art can work, I can't recommend anyone better than John Kerker, no matter what style you study. But then I've been there on the receiving end of Sherman's unending applications.

And there are many other worthy Isshinryu stylists, Advincula Sensei, being another worth mentioning.

But the full Isshinryu story, and I only know a small piece, is too vast to simply characterize.