View Full Version : Wrist injury from Juho...
kirgan
28th April 2006, 01:54
Gassho,
I could use some feedback on a wrist injury I have with my left wrist.
About a month ago, I was working on some techniques for my 2nd Kyu exam with one of the black belts at my branch. After I practiced my techniques for a while, I offered to let him practice some of his new techniques on me. I don't remember the name of his techniques, I only remember that I had to grab him with my hand going into his sleeve. He practiced two version of a technique. One where he seemed to roll his arm over my hand and the other was a method of getting my arm in the S-shape.
He had a little trouble at first with the S-Shape version of the technique, so our branch master, Messersmith Sensei, demonstrated on me for him to see. I of course have had numerous wrist locks applied on me, but this time it surprised me a bit by the pain being more intense than usual. Needless to say, I dropped down very quickly.
My wrist was sore and sensitive to movement and any pressure for about a week. Now three weeks later, it is a little better - meaning I can move my wrist in all directions without pain, but it does feel a little weaker than my right wrist.
I have not been doing any Juho with my injured wrist these last 4 weeks, until last night when I had my wife put my arm in the S-Shape with Juji Gote just to test it. I had her go very slowly & as soon as my arm was in the "S" I felt a little pain. When she crossed her elbow over my arm and just slightly applied pressure and titled my hand just slightly towards my face, my wrist really hurt - way more than it should with just that little amount of pressure. When I had her repeat it on my other wrist, it was more like I am used to. There was pain, but not near as intense and it took more pressure for it be be enough to bring me down. So, my left wrist is obviously nowhere near being healed yet.
Anyone had a similar injury? How long did it take to heal?
Thanks,
--Mike
Ewok
28th April 2006, 01:59
Sounds like Johaku/Sode-dori. Maybe get some of the deep-heat muscle creams, I found that helped when I was receiving alot of those techniques.
Lately I've been teaching kannuki to some other kenshi, and now the point on the side of the wrist/lowerforearm is really starting to ache. At least I know they've got it right now :p
kirgan
28th April 2006, 02:22
Gassho,
Thanks for the suggestion. A fellow kenshi suggested something similar. He said I should try a produce called BLUE-EMU. I bought it today & have just applied it to my wrist for the first time. It doesn't say anything about heat, but it does say deep penetrating. I'll see how that works. I also am going to put on a wrist brace for while and see if that helps.
All other suggestions or feedback on similar experiences is welcome.
--Mike
Rob Gassin
28th April 2006, 03:32
Mike,
On which side of your wrist is the pain - the front (palm side), back, thumb side or little finger side?
Does it hurt when you squeeze the injured part, or when you stretch it?
What is the quality of the pain (aching, sharp, shooting, burning etc)?
Is the pain constantly present or does it only come with certain movements or in certain positions?
With Dori techniques, there is a lot of shearing force applied to the medial (little finger) side of the wrist whereas with maki techniques, the force is more a straight crushing force to the medial side of the wrist. I suspect that these forces can easily bruise +/- injure a structures on that side of the wrist especially the triangular fibrocartilage complex and meniscus homologue.
The main treatment for injuries to these structures is to avoid aggravating activities. Wearing a brace that stops the wrist moving from side to side and up and down, during training, might be helpful. Anti-inflammatory gels (eg. Voltaren) might be helpful. Emu oil is as good as snake oil :p and heat applications are a counter-irritant - that is' the burning sensation turns your mind off the pain. it only give short-term relief.
The good news is that the pain is likely to improve with time but can take several months to do so.
Keep in mind that what I have written above may have nothing to do with your injury :) .
Cheers,
Ade
28th April 2006, 07:25
Gassho
Strap it whilst you're awake, take anti-inflamatory tablets and pain killers, DON'T do any exercise on it or get it twisted at all until it stops hurting totally.
Then wait two more weeks before getting it twisted again.
If it hurts strap it when you train as a reminder to yourself and others.
It should take about 4 - 6 months.
If you're really desperate and fancy a laugh go to a doctor, they'll tell you that getting your wrist twisted is dangerous and advise that you take up gentle domestic cleaning instead then send you away with a prescription for the products of the drug company that bungs them the most money.
Take the opportunity to work on your kicking instead, start with the premise that it's poor and needs 4 - 6 months intense concentration to rectify.
Deeply satisfying.
Take care.
JL.
28th April 2006, 07:42
Gassho!
I also agree that You should move Your wrist as little as possible and take special care not to let anyone do any throws on it!! Similar injuries I sustained have taken several months at least to heal – if they healed at all.
Have You told Your sensei about it? From what I understood he caused the injury. That is somewhat troubling, too.
Kesshu,
______ Jan.
Steve Malton
28th April 2006, 10:48
Fingers going into the sleeve sounds more like sode guchi dori.
For once, I agree with Ade :eek: Strap it up until it's completely healed, and then for a bit longer.
Rob Gassin
28th April 2006, 13:02
If you're really desperate and fancy a laugh go to a doctor, they'll tell you that getting your wrist twisted is dangerous and advise that you take up gentle domestic cleaning instead then send you away with a prescription for the products of the drug company that bungs them the most money.
Can Drs still make money from pharmaceutical companies in England? If so, and they give the sort of stupid advise you suggest they might in Mike's case, then I must be working in the wrong country :p !!
Your suggestions are otherwise appropriate (if Mike has the type of injury we all think he has, and that many of us have suffered from before).
jailess
28th April 2006, 13:12
They can make money if they work exclusively for them. Otherwise incentives can be given by bway of free tourniquets, drug lunches, etc.
kirgan
28th April 2006, 13:50
On which side of your wrist is the pain - the front (palm side), back, thumb side or little finger side?
It hurts on the palm side. Go to the middle of your wrist on the palm side and then slightly towards the thumb.
Does it hurt when you squeeze the injured part, or when you stretch it?
It doesn't hurt when I squeeze my wrist, but yes if I put my hand in the S-Shape with the little finger pointing up and the thumb pointing down - it hurts a bit. Then when any pressure is applied to rotate my hand toward my face (thumbing coming up toward my face) it hurts way more than it should. It will hurt even if I just put my arm in the S-shapre myself and take my opposite hand and grab my injured wrist and move it slightly towards my face. This is what I used to do just try and loosen up my wrists before practice & it never caused me any pain at all when I did it, but now after the injury it does.
What is the quality of the pain (aching, sharp, shooting, burning etc)?
A sharp pain - just like if an S-Shape technique was being applied, but the level of pain is more intense & only a little bit of pressure on wrist is required to cause it. The pain goes away in a few seconds have the pressure is removed - of course that is only with a small amount of pressure. I am sure if let someone do it with normal force - the pain wouldn't go away in just a few seconds.
The main treatment for injuries to these structures is to avoid aggravating activities. Wearing a brace that stops the wrist moving from side to side and up and down, during training, might be helpful. Anti-inflammatory gels (eg. Voltaren) might be helpful. Emu oil is as good as snake oil :p and heat applications are a counter-irritant - that is' the burning sensation turns your mind off the pain. it only give short-term relief.
The good news is that the pain is likely to improve with time but can take several months to do so.
I am getting a brace today, so we will see if that helps.
I was afraid that everyone would say a couple of months to heal even with no use. I didn't really want to be out of commission with that wrist for that long, but oh well. Like what was suggested by Ade - I'll just have to focus on my write side & kicks for now. Sounds like my 2nd Kyu test might have to be delayed.
Thanks for the advice,
--Mike
JL.
28th April 2006, 14:02
Gassho!
Mike-san, better delay the exam than ruin Your wrist. It may be annoying but everything else is just plain irresponsible.
Quoting Baz Luhrman (with the slight deviation from knees to wrists ;) ): "Be kind to your wrists – you'll miss them when they're gone!"
Kesshu,
______ Jan.
Rob Gassin
28th April 2006, 21:15
Mike,
The site of your pain is not the one commonly associated with dori or maki techniques.
The fact that you have little or no pain when not using the hand is good news.
The sharp quality of the pain suggests that either a bruised structure is being compressed or pinched. This structure is most likely a bone, cartilage or deep ligament.
The lack of tenderness to touch suggests that the tendons are ok.
Given the site and quality of the pain, I'm confident it will improve. The advice regarding treatment given to you earlier by others and myself is still appropriate.
Decreasing the use of the wrist and avoiding aggravating movements is important. Wearing a brace on activity is a very good idea. Get one with a metal or hard plastic bar through it, to prevent movement. Complete immobilisation of the wrist is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, it might help the injured structure to heal but on the other hand, movement improves blood flow, which improves healing and also immobilisation can lead to rapid loss of muscle bulk and strength and very rarely to a nasty condition called (CRPS or RSD). My advise at this stage is to brace it when active but not to completely immobilise the wrist. Make sure you still use the fingers.
When your symptoms improve, return to training gradually , stretch and strengthen your wrist first then only allow nukis to be performed then if everything is ok after a few weeks, graduate to gyaku waza. Keep wearing a soft wrist brace for a while to remind your training partners of your injury.
If your pain persists, see a doctor.
Cheers,
Rob Gassin
28th April 2006, 21:18
Mike,
The site of your pain is not the one commonly associated with dori or maki techniques.
The fact that you have little or no pain when not using the hand is good news.
The sharp quality of the pain suggests that either a bruised structure is being compressed or pinched. This structure is most likely a bone, cartilage or deep ligament.
The lack of tenderness to touch suggests that the tendons are ok.
Given the site and quality of the pain, I'm confident it will improve. The advice regarding treatment given to you earlier by others and myself is still appropriate.
Decreasing the use of the wrist and avoiding aggravating movements is important. Wearing a brace on activity is a very good idea. Get one with a metal or hard plastic bar through it, to prevent movement. Complete immobilisation of the wrist is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, it might help the injured structure to heal but on the other hand, movement improves blood flow, which improves healing and also immobilisation can lead to rapid loss of muscle bulk and strength and very rarely to a nasty condition called (CRPS or RSD). My advise at this stage is to brace it when active but not to completely immobilise the wrist. Make sure you still use the fingers.
When your symptoms improve, return to training gradually , stretch and strengthen your wrist first then only allow nukis to be performed then if everything is ok after a few weeks, graduate to gyaku waza. Keep wearing a soft wrist brace for a while to remind your training partners of your injury.
If your pain persists, see a doctor.
Cheers,
kirgan
28th April 2006, 21:21
Gassho,
Gassho!
Have You told Your sensei about it?
Not yet. Are lead Sensei, Messersmith Sensei (6th Dan), has not been back since then. Are other black belts and Parra Sensei (4th Dan) have been teaching the class these last couple of weeks. The other instructors are all aware of the injury and have been having me practice techniques that don't involve using my injured wrist.
From what I understood he caused the injury. That is somewhat troubling, too.
I don't blame Messersmith Sensei. He is a good instructor & I knew the risk of injury in any martial art before I started. Heck about 3 weeks before this, one of the 2nd Kyu brown belts broke his toe on my knee. He had me down in a lock and I guess he should have kicked me with his other leg, because the one he chose to use was on the same side as my knee that was still up. His foot hit my knee.
Besides, after the technique was first executed on me, I thought I could shake it off - like we all usually do in class. So, after a minute or two of shaking and rubbing my wrist, I let the black belt try again. I could have said something and insisted he switch to my right wrist, but I really didn't think it was that serious and thought I could go again. I found out after that second time that I didn't shake the first one off as easy as I thought I could.
Who knows, if I had let it only be applied to me once, maybe my wrist would have healed in a week, instead of the 4 weeks it has been so far. In any case, I know neither one of them meant for it to happen and as I said, I knew the risks & am not blaming either one of them in the slightest.
I'll just do what I need to do now to let it heal. And I am sure I will be willing to jump right back in and have either one of them apply the technique on me again once my wrist heals. I'll just have to pay more attention to how it really feels to know if I should continue or switch wrists.
--Mike
kirgan
29th April 2006, 02:30
Thanks for the information & advice Rob. I appreciate it. The same goes to everyone else - Thanks.
--Mike
luar
30th April 2006, 18:31
Seeing how we as a martial art does not have enough public information on the types of injuries that typicaly occur, I decided to do a Google on "Aikido wrist injuries" figuring they must have something documented. I came across this article (http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/pms93_77_707-715.htm) which I thought was interesting.
Tripitaka of AA
1st May 2006, 19:56
From the article's conclusion. Nikyo pain is bone pain. The bones involved, the pisiform and the ulnar styloid process, have been identified based on the site of the pain, dissections of a cadaver, and wrist radiographs. Nikyo forcibly compresses these two structures. The intense pain produced is a result of stimulation of the periosteal nerves in these bony sur£aces.
Great link Raul. I don't have enough knowledge of anatomy to appreciate how much of a discovery this is, or how reliable the conclusion is... but it is interesting, isn't it. It goes a long way to explaining why the pain in Juho is intense, but vanishes when the lock is released.
Rob Gassin
1st May 2006, 21:54
Great article. The technique studied appears to get the wrist in a maki position but with a bit more wrist flexion than what we use in SK. The conclusion that the pain must arise from the bony surface is a bit dogmatic but may well be correct.
The comment "After years of continued practice, Nikyo pain will change to a dull, poorly localized discomfort in contrast to the sharp, well-localized pain in the beginner's wrist". Has anyone noticed this? I certainly haven't.
...The technique studied appears to get the wrist in a maki position but with a bit more wrist flexion than what we use in SK. The conclusion that the pain must arise from the bony surface is a bit dogmatic but may well be correct....The comment "After years of continued practice, Nikyo pain will change to a dull, poorly localized discomfort in contrast to the sharp, well-localized pain in the beginner's wrist". Has anyone noticed this? I certainly haven't.
Firstly in regard to Ni kyo using more wrist flexion than we (Shorinji Kempo) use then stick around, it gets a LOT worse as you go up the syllabus, (okuri hiji zeme is just one example!!!!)
Secondly: yes, my wrists can take far more pain than they used to and, if my teacher, Sensei Russell's demonstration of pain absorbtion at this year's UTS was anything to go by, then I'm going to get a lot better at taking a lot more pain in the future!
I'm so looking forward to it.
Kesshu.
Kari MakiKuutti
2nd May 2006, 16:03
I also agree that You should move Your wrist as little as possible and take special care not to let anyone do any throws on it!! Similar injuries I sustained have taken several months at least to heal – if they healed at all.
Have You told Your sensei about it? From what I understood he caused the injury. That is somewhat troubling, too.
Why should this be troubling? Only if the sensei injures many people accidentally or anyone on purpose, I would worry.
Nobody is perfect...
Great article. The technique studied appears to get the wrist in a maki position but with a bit more wrist flexion than what we use in SK. The conclusion that the pain must arise from the bony surface is a bit dogmatic but may well be correct.
What came to mind was a kick in the shins.
kirgan
3rd May 2006, 02:07
Seeing how we as a martial art does not have enough public information on the types of injuries that typicaly occur, I decided to do a Google on "Aikido wrist injuries" figuring they must have something documented. I came across this article (http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/pms93_77_707-715.htm) which I thought was interesting.
Very interesting read. It would be nice to read about more studies like this. I might have to do some searches also to see if I can find anything else.
--Mike
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