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John Driscoll
4th May 2006, 04:34
Most biographies of Morihei Ueshiba contain a reference to the October 1930 visit of Jigoro Kano, to Ueshiba’s temporary dojo in Mejirodai to view a demonstration of Aiki-Budo. All accounts reflect Ueshiba’s demonstration significantly impressed Kano and resulted in his commenting at the conclusion, “This is my ideal budo.” Kano subsequently assigned two of his valued students, Jiro Takeda, a seasoned Judoka, and Minoru Mochizuki, a rising star of the Kodokan, to study with O’Sensei.

While numerous references to the demonstration exist, I have been unable to locate details regarding the specific techniques demonstrated or the conversation that transpired between Kano and Ueshiba. Does anyone have detailed information regarding the demonstration? Regards, JED.

kimiwane
4th May 2006, 18:26
John,

Wish I could help you there, but I don't have specific answers to your specific questions. At best, I'd like to make a few comments that might shed some light on things if you don't already know about them, though you probably do.

First, as you probably know, Saigo Shiro had a lot to do with the development of judo and he was a daito ryu man. As I recall, he was famous for his yama arashi technique and was responsible for adding that type of movement to Kano's approach.

I'd guess that Kano just saw much more of the aiki movement in Ueshiba than he had seen from Saigo.

The other thing is that Kano took judo from the forms of jujutsu he had learned, deleting anything illogical or not supported by physics principles. So he had moved somewhat away from Japanese culture already by then. I guess Ueshiba's demonstration reawakened his sense of the Japanese budo spirit, which is, by nature, somewhat illogical.

Sorry I can't be of more help. If you do find anything more on this subject, hope you'll post it here!

Thanks.

Neil Yamamoto
4th May 2006, 18:47
I doubt you will find much, but try contacting the Kodokan library as a start.

International Department
TEL: 03-3818-4172
FAX: 03-3814-2918
e-mail: intl@kodokan.org

Library/Research Department
TEL: 03-3818-4562
e-mail:lib@kodokan.org

Second, Saigo Shiro's Daito Ryu ties are very suspect. Read this article.
http://www.bestjudo.com/article15.shtml

John Driscoll
4th May 2006, 19:27
Kimiwane & Neil -

Thanks for taking time to reply. I appreciate your comments. Neil, I will send a request to the Kodokan as you suggest. I know the Aikikai possess a letter from Kano to Ueshiba documenting Kano's request that two of his students be admitted to the Kobukan Dojo of Ueshiba. I would suspect the Kodokan would have a copy of the correpsondence. Regards, JED.

George Kohler
4th May 2006, 20:48
First, as you probably know, Saigo Shiro had a lot to do with the development of judo and he was a daito ryu man.

I don't think there is any evidence of Saigo knowing Daito-ryu. I think this has been talked about before on Aikido Journal forum by Mr. Pranin and may even be here in the aikijujutsu forum.

kimiwane
4th May 2006, 23:05
I don't think there is any evidence of Saigo knowing Daito-ryu. I think this has been talked about before on Aikido Journal forum by Mr. Pranin and may even be here in the aikijujutsu forum.

Well...I'll be doggone. But it seems that I read that he was the source of the yama arashi. Has that been presented and found untrue?

Thanks for the notice on that.

Neil Yamamoto
4th May 2006, 23:16
Read the link I posted, it's got a pretty solid case against the story of Saigo and Daito Ryu.

John Driscoll
5th May 2006, 03:26
I didn't want to get distracted from my original question. However, in addition to Stan Pranin's published research, Daigo Toshiro, Kodokan Judo 9th Dan and Chief Instructor at the Kodokan, states the following regarding yama-arashi, in his book, Kodokan Judo Throwing Techniques, Kodansha International 2005.

"Yama-arashi is recorded in Sekiguchi-ryu (the old style of jujitsu) as yama-otoshi. Shiro Saigo became famous throughout the judo world for perfecting this technique for randori-waza. It is said there was no yama-arashi before Saigo, and neither was there after him.

In Tokyo Police Academy Competion between Kodokan Judo and other jujitsu styles, Shiro Saigo's yama-arashi has shone through and helped contribute to the development of Kodokan Judo."

I think the two sources referenced places the origins of yama-arashi somewhere other than Daito-ryu. That said, I'd be interested in seeing any information demonstrating yama-arashi to be a technique in Daito-ryu. Regards, JED.

MarkF
5th May 2006, 15:51
First, as you probably know, Saigo Shiro had a lot to do with the development of judo and he was a daito ryu man. As I recall, he was famous for his yama arashi technique and was responsible for adding that type of movement to Kano's approach.

I'd guess that Kano just saw much more of the aiki movement in Ueshiba than he had seen from Saigo.


Oh, David, shame on you. You need to get out more. Actually, this is an old story and still can become a very passionate discussion, but just based in Shiro's age when he went to the Kodokan (16 yr.), and the jujutsu he was doing with Kano before that, it is pretty doubtful that he had any DR training.

BTW: Yes, it is the position of many judoka that there are as many forms of Yama Arashi as there are judo sensei, but Yama Arashi was in the first Go Kyo no Waza of Kodokan Judo. Just as many are likely to offer instruction in the same throw which is said to have disappeared when Saigo Shiro left the Kodokan.

Besides, as in most things, everyone has his own style.


Kano was questioned by his students after that comment to Ueshiba got around that Ueshiba was doing a superior form of Budo than Kano's Judo, but his answer to that was precise. "No. [Ueshiba's judo] is that of 180 degrees. Ours is the Judo of ninety degrees" or so it goes.


Mark

kimiwane
5th May 2006, 20:52
Read the link I posted, it's got a pretty solid case against the story of Saigo and Daito Ryu.

Neil,

sorry I glazed right over that. I'll have a look.

Thanks.

kimiwane
5th May 2006, 20:56
"Yama-arashi is recorded in Sekiguchi-ryu (the old style of jujitsu) as yama-otoshi. Shiro Saigo became famous throughout the judo world for perfecting this technique for randori-waza. It is said there was no yama-arashi before Saigo, and neither was there after him.

Sounds like it was a "known" technique, but he made it so thoroughly his own that no one else compared after him...


Oh, David, shame on you. You need to get out more.

Wahhhh!!!!

It's true. Enjoyed your comments.

Thanks.

George Kohler
10th May 2006, 02:49
Daigo Toshiro, Kodokan Judo 9th Dan and Chief Instructor at the Kodokan, states the following regarding yama-arashi, in his book, Kodokan Judo Throwing Techniques, Kodansha International 2005.

He is now a 10th dan as of January 8, 2006 with two other Judoka, Ichiro Abe and Yoshimi Osawa.