Bokken "bounces" slightly/shakes at the end of cuts

[Lowriderx52]

In practicing my cuts (I am still very much a beginner) I took someone's advice and decided to pay attention to every small movement in my forms/techniques.

I have come to realize that at teh end/bottom of a cut I have a hard time stabilizing - my bokken seems to shake a little up and down before it stops.

My sensei is very old school (the Way is in practice) so I want to check here first, am I doing something wrong or will it go away with practice.

P.S. I got a video of Saito, who I realize is "aikido" but it seems his cuts are very strange and his bokkens shakes up and down a lot at the end of his cuts too, different from what we do in Yoshinkan.....

With pre-emptive gratitude,
Nathaniel Kim

[Chris Brown]

I have struggled with a similar problem, and my sensei and sempai tell me that this, along with a tendency for the blade to descend through the final 1/3 or so of the cut (relative to speed. It's much more noticeable the more slowly you execute the cut.) with a side to side "wavy" type motion, is a result of two bad habits.

The first is gripping the tsuka too tightly and not having my hands/wrists placed properly, and the second is the use of too much power overall in the execution of the cut.

With practice, and really paying attention to my grip, plus use of a full length mirror to watch my whole waza when someone more experienced is not available to watch me have helped relieve most of the problem. I notice it still happens a lot when I start practice until I have really warmed up an loosened up my wrists.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it is of some help to you. Get your sensei to watch you execute slow cuts and stop you at the instant he sees where you are going wrong. That's how we diagnosed and began to correct my problems.

All the best!

[Jock Armstrong]

Trying too hard is often the cause of "bounce". Try easing back on the amount of power you put into the swing.; also, squeezing the hands on the tsuka helps focus the cut and acts like a braking system. Let us know how you go...

[Chris Brown]

I think Mr. Armstrong just did a far better job than I could of describing what I tried to describe. Thank you, sir.

[ichibyoshi]

It depends a little on your tradition. If it is aikido then I suppose the right way might be quite 'soft', ie no vibration. But this was put in the koryu thread and every koryu has a different slightly different set of objectives as to what makes a good cut.

And in my art (kendo), some vibration of the kensen at the end of the cut, particularly when using the shinai, is considered definitely a good thing, as it shows good tenouchi and strong sae (snappiness).

b

[Jock Armstrong]

that's right for kendo Ben, but cutting with a blade entails a somewhat different dynamic. "Snap" as such is not as important as allowing the blade to perform an arc to slice the target.

[Lowriderx52]

Thanks for all your replies, I guess I will go slow and work my speed up, and also experiment to get a proper grip.

P.S. Don't let me sayign this is "aikido" fool you, if historians met my Sensei Eun Jang Yu they would have to redefine "Gendai" and "Koryu" lol

Plus he was under Yagyu Nobuharu under Yagyu Ryu so his sword style is basically that.

[Chris Brown]

I think the description given to me that made the most lasting impression concerning how to properly grip my sword and position my hands and wrists was to imagine that my tsuka was a wet, but somewhat delicate cloth, and I was to hold it as though I were attempting to gently, but firmly, wring the water from it.

Once I got my mind wrapped around that one, so to speak, I began to improve.

Good luck!

[Itten]

To add to what Chris has just said, good grip (tenouchi) comes from the wringing action where the first knuckle of both hands are in line, and from solid wrist strength. Doing this initially causes some compression in the pectoral muscles which will relax with practice. Sinking the body towards the end of the cut ensures that you cut with body and not shoulder and arm, (jushin no ido). Strong kamae is therefore vital, the flexing of the forward knee determines the range of lowering your centre of gravity. Understanding the entry and exit points of the cut help to prevent over using power at the end of the cut when it is no longer necessary. Finally, handling a shinken to learn tome, how to stop the cut at a desired point, will also help greatly.

with respect, Alec

[hyaku]

In practicing my cuts (I am still very much a beginner) I took someone's advice and decided to pay attention to every small movement in my forms/techniques.

I have come to realize that at teh end/bottom of a cut I have a hard time stabilizing - my bokken seems to shake a little up and down before it stops.
Nathaniel Kim

In what I do it's normal as the arms are still slightly flexed on the cut and not locked. To lock and stop everything leaves no room for continuation. I know this is not the concept for some other swordwork though.

[glad2bhere]

My sword master advised me that the stability of the sword tip is a direct reflection of the stability (focus) of one's heart. His report was that as I would concentrate on stabilizing the sword tip in practice I would find my "heart" ("maum-ssi") would stabilize--- and vice versa. You are right to be concerned about this matter. You are wrong to want a resolution so early in your practice. My sword master is in his 70-s and this issue is but one of a range of such issues he continues to address on a daily basis. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[grondahl]

Nathaniel check out http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1952

It´s a E-budo member and Yoshinkan stylist experience of training in an Iwama style (thus following Saito sensei) dojo. It has a rather good explanation of the bouncing tip.

[Lowriderx52]

Thanks for all your advice and I think I finally figured out my problem

Most of all I wasn't doing a "proper" grip, I haven't practiced in a while so I was gripping tight "with my whole hand" instead of tightest with the pinky and ring finger and sort of wider/looser with my index fingers.

I adjusted my grip and everything is working pretty smoothly now if I do say so myself, and thanks for all you advice!

P.S. I don't mean to sound arrogant especially as a beginner but I looked at Saito sensei and no offense but doesn't his movement strike you as odd for those who practice Koryu?

I got a video of him and his hits seem "strange" as in when he's about to strike he sort of fling his sword back over hit backside as if he was going to strike his own behind and then he swings down. I hear he's good but if he is it's a VERY different style from what my dojo does.

Any Koryu thoughts on Saito?

Nathaniel Kim

[Alex Dale]

Nathaniel,


Where do you study? I was pretty sure I had kept tabs on all Yagyu Shinkage-ryu people in the U.S., which I assume you're in the U.S.. Could you tell us more about your teacher and such? Are you a part of the (Owari/Bishu) Yagyukai? If you'd prefer, you can message me privately.


Regards,

[Brian Owens]

...P.S. I don't mean to sound arrogant especially as a beginner but I looked at Saito sensei and no offense but doesn't his movement strike you as odd for those who practice Koryu?

...I hear he's good but if he is it's a VERY different style from what my dojo does.

Any Koryu thoughts on Saito?
Yes, what he does is different than what you do. Different; not "odd."

Since you don't practice the same art as he does, don't worry about it. Follow your sensei's advice, and in 20 or 30 years may may reach a similar level to Saito Sensei's.

[Chidokan]

I had an excellent lesson in 'sword wobble' a few years ago.... to summarise it you are using too much arm muscle and upper body power, and no (or not enough) lower body. Try this. roll up a sheet of newspaper and cut with it like you do with your sword. If the paper collapses in any way - guess what.... :rolleyes:
Try only holding the tsuka with the little finger ONLY. Tension in the hands also tenses the shoulders and hunches you up. Put NO power in the cut, just let the arms swing. Do this for a while to get the 'feel'. Finally during this exercise tense the lower body as the sword is level with tekki's head, but keep the upper body and arms loose. These are just exercises to try and get a feel for how it works, but they will show you if you are too tense or powerful....

[Lt_Action]

Haha, Tim, that newspaper thing sounds like an excellent idea.

It'd probably be a good idea for me to try it.

I was at work once and found an ENORMOUS plastic bat in the toy aisle. Of coruse, being involved with sword, everything becomes a sword, so I decided I'd give it a swing before I put it up. I "cut" a kesa with it and at the very end of the cut, the bat snapped at the handle and skidded across the floor.

Bearing that in mind, I believe I am in no real posistion to be offering advice on cutting properly.

BUT, there is the "Tsuka no nigiri kata" if that is what it's called, which is the whole "wringing the hands over the tsuka during the cut".

My sword doesn't wobble much at all and with the way I apparently overpower my cuts so I'd say that's worth a shot. ;)