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Cufaol
3rd May 2006, 16:30
I googled Shorin ryu, and so I found out it is a Karate-do style. My question is now the following : What is it like in terms of 'what does it look like" and "what is the filosophy behind it" ?

I'm kind of curious because I'd never heard about it before. I'm always looking for new stuff to learn you see. :)

cheers, Christophe.

Trevor Johnson
3rd May 2006, 17:38
Depends on who's doing the teaching, really. The style in Durham is pretty rigid, in a number of ways, and very precise. The head of this style is Eizo Shimabukuro, his student who's doing the teaching here's Sheree Adams. What we're learning is geared a bit more towards smaller people, but I've barely begun since I moved, so it may change.

Cufaol
4th May 2006, 11:12
The style in Durham is [...] very precise.

I like the sound of that. precision is good. :cool:
Thank you for explaining. I was wondering, is there a link you could point me to that will give me the history of Shorin ryu or the history of the style you are following?
I will leave you your peace after that. Promise. :p :rolleyes:

Cheers, Christophe.

Brian Owens
4th May 2006, 12:18
...is there a link you could point me to that will give me the history of Shorin ryu...
I'm not Trevor, but if I may offer the following:

While I was studying Shito Ryu (a major Japanese karate style) in the mid-'70s and early eighties, my brother was studying Shorin Ryu in Okinawa under Fusei Kise Sensei, and so I have some interest in its history. I hope I have this right.

Shorin Ryu is one of the major styles of Okinawan Karate, the other being Goju Ryu. The major Japanese styles are JKA/Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, and ... hmm. I thought there were four, but I can't think of the other now. It's late. Anyway...

The name Shorin itself is the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (Pine Forest), refering to its ancient origins in China's Shaolin Temple Boxing (Shaolin Chuan Fa).

Shorin Ryu is considered an evolution of Shuri Te, and has several other branches under it. Major branches of Shorin Ryu include Matsubayashi Ryu (why it's called a ryu and not a -ha I don't know), Kobayashi Ryu, Shobayashi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito.

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-ryu
http://www.okinawan-shorinryu.com/history.html

HTH.

Trevor Johnson
4th May 2006, 16:17
I like the sound of that. precision is good. :cool:
Thank you for explaining. I was wondering, is there a link you could point me to that will give me the history of Shorin ryu or the history of the style you are following?
I will leave you your peace after that. Promise. :p :rolleyes:

Cheers, Christophe.

Google Eizo Shimabukuro, that should help. www.toyei.com is also a good link. And don't worry about bugging me, I'm fine with that...

Cufaol
4th May 2006, 22:34
Trevor and Brian, thank you both for the information. I really appreciate your efforts guys. Now I know at least the history etc. of shorin ryu (and the other Okinawan arts ofcourse). By the way, is there a smiley for Rei ho? It could come in handy in situations like this. :)

Anyway, thanks again.

P.S. : This is the first time I hear ( or rather read) the meaning of the word Shaolin. So to Brian Owens: The linguist in me thanks you. A lot.



Cheers, Christophe.

Brian Owens
6th May 2006, 09:24
Note to new readers: The above posts were split from a thread in the Budo & the Body forum. This seemed to be the best place for the subtopic, since it dealt with questions about Shorin Ryu.

While the original questions have been answered, please feel free to add new material that you think is relevant.

Thanks.

Prince Loeffler
6th May 2006, 17:47
To add more to Brain's post to some historians, during the late 1800's that Shuri-Te began emerge with the name Shorin-Ryu.

Althought, Its a matter of speculation as to why or who started this name, but most of the karate practitioners in Okinawa accepted the new name which was a reference to the arts' roots at the Shaolin temple in China (Shorin is the Japanese pronunciation of Shaolin).

I will re-read some of my book in regards to this and perhaps based on what others have written, we can discover what the nearest truth behind the mystery.

powerof0ne
6th May 2006, 23:48
I'm not Trevor, but if I may offer the following:

While I was studying Shito Ryu (a major Japanese karate style) in the mid-'70s and early eighties, my brother was studying Shorin Ryu in Okinawa under Fusei Kise Sensei, and so I have some interest in its history. I hope I have this right.

Shorin Ryu is one of the major styles of Okinawan Karate, the other being Goju Ryu. The major Japanese styles are JKA/Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, and ... hmm. I thought there were four, but I can't think of the other now. It's late. Anyway...

The name Shorin itself is the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (Pine Forest), refering to its ancient origins in China's Shaolin Temple Boxing (Shaolin Chuan Fa).

Shorin Ryu is considered an evolution of Shuri Te, and has several other branches under it. Major branches of Shorin Ryu include Matsubayashi Ryu (why it's called a ryu and not a -ha I don't know), Kobayashi Ryu, Shobayashi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito.

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-ryu
http://www.okinawan-shorinryu.com/history.html

HTH.

The 4th major Japanese style is, Japanese Goju Ryu; I know that kind of threw you off since you also mentioned Okinawan Goju Ryu.

Brian Owens
7th May 2006, 00:42
The 4th major Japanese style is, Japanese Goju Ryu; I know that kind of threw you off since you also mentioned Okinawan Goju Ryu.
Yep. As I mentioned, it was late and my brain wasn't functioning at full capacity. ;)

Gogen Yamaguchi would have been of the Japanese branch, correct?

powerof0ne
7th May 2006, 01:30
Yes, he is the one who "founded" Japanese goju ryu.

Nyuck3X
8th May 2006, 21:43
The name Shorin itself is the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of
Shaolin (Pine Forest), refering to its ancient origins in China's Shaolin Temple
Boxing (Shaolin Chuan Fa).


Major branches of Shorin Ryu include Matsubayashi Ryu (why it's
called a ryu and not a -ha I don't know), Kobayashi Ryu, Shobayashi Ryu,
and Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito.

Just a little more clarification.

The character "sho" can also be pronounced "ko", meaning small,
"sho" meaning young or "matsu" meaning pine.
"Rin" can be pronounced "bayashi" which means forest. Kobayashi
means small forest. A reference back to the Shao-lin
(Chinese pronunciation) origins. There are four main branches of
Shorin-ryu. Kobayashi, (small forest) Shobayashi, (young forest)
Matsubayashi, (pine forest) and Matsumura Seito. The first three
can be pronounced Shorin-ryu and the last is considered Shorin-ryu
since it was created by Matsumura who founded the mother school.
The difference refers to the Sensei (teacher) that influenced the
style. Kobayashi was influenced by Chosin Chibana.
Shobayashi was founded by Chotoku Kyan and Matsubayashi was founded
by Soshin Nagamine. (Note: Nagamine was also a student of Kyan.)
The school of Matsumura Seito was handed down from Sokon Matsumura
to his grandson Nabe Matsumura to his nephew, Hohan Sokon.

The character used in Shaolin is the one used to represent young.

All schools are also considered Shuri-te/Sui-de.

I think they are called "ryu" instead of "ha" because they are very different
from each other rather than just another flavor of the same thing. They
have different syllabus and philosophies.

Peace.

Prince Loeffler
8th May 2006, 22:27
Well Done Ray. Thanks for the clarification !

Paul Hart
9th May 2006, 00:05
Some misconceptions about Shorin Ryu, but some good info also. Shorin Ryu is the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin. However, this is not the arts only origin. Sokon Matsumura, body guard to three Okinawa Kings, I think would have been the earliest to call it Shorin Ryu, however it was not in an attemp to name the style, but to name the techniques practised that day. The art, which is said to be from the Chinese Fukien White Crane, and Shantung Black Tiger schools, also has the Minamoto system of Bujustsu. Tis comes from Tometomo Minamoto being the father to the first King of Okinawa, Shunten. The art of Shorn Ryu comes from, and has in it, parts of the Minamoto arts, which became Uchinadi, parts of the Tode of Old Okinawa and the Lohan Chinese arts. It is written that Matsumura was half Chinese. I am unsure of the truth of this last part, but it was common in Okinawa those days.

gmanry
9th May 2006, 00:14
I thought shorinji was the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of shaolin.

Paul Hart
9th May 2006, 00:39
Shorinji means Shaolin Temple, not Shaolin. But good question.

Jock Armstrong
9th May 2006, 00:43
Shorinji means 'Shaolin temple'. The ji part being the ending used for buddhist temple buildings. Shinto tends to use the term jinja . Shorinji kempo translates as 'fist fighting of the Shaolin temple'.
I remember that a system called Shorinji ryu changed it's name to shorinji kenkokan to avoid confusion about 15 years ago [one was descended from the shorin lineage rather than the kempo group].

desparoz
9th May 2006, 00:57
Hi Jock

You said


I remember that a system called Shorinji ryu changed it's name to shorinji kenkokan to avoid confusion about 15 years ago [one was descended from the shorin lineage rather than the kempo group].

Not quite correct on that one, mate!

Shorinjiryu Kenkokan Karate was founded under that name by HISATAKA (KUDAKA) Kori (1907-1988) in approx 1946. The style was Shorinjiryu (Hisataka sensei was a student of Kyan's, among others), and his school name was Kenkokan.

Around the world there are many groups that are descended from that lineage. Almost all of us use the name Shorinjiryu in conjunction with a school name. Only those still affiliated with the Shorinjiryu Kenkokan Karatedo organisation of HISATAKA Masayuki sensei (son of Hisataka Kori sensei) use the Kenkokan name.

In Australia, the Australian Shorinjiryu Karatedo Association has taught Shorinjiryu since the late 70's. In the mid-90's, there was a split from the Kenkokan, and part of the group (that stayed with them) reverted to the Shorinjiryu Kenkokan name. The rest of us continue under the banner of Australian Shorinjiryu Karatedo.

So we're still Shorinjiryu....

Cheers

Des

Nyuck3X
9th May 2006, 03:38
Thanks Prince. I try... :rolleyes:

Jock Armstrong
9th May 2006, 06:18
So I got it arse about yet again- thanks for the info....

desparoz
9th May 2006, 06:21
No worries. :)

Brian Owens
9th May 2006, 14:16
I thought shorinji was the Japanese/Okinawan pronunciation of shaolin.Echoing what Paul Hart said, Sho-rin is Shao-lin, Sho-rin-ji is Shao-lin-szu.

HTH.

Nyuck3X
10th May 2006, 16:59
From Wikpedia:

In the original Japanese, ryū and ryūha are synonymous, with ha (originally meaning "tributary") being a smaller division than ryū (originally meaning "body of water").

My guess is all schools can be ryuha, the main stream being the -ryu, and
the smaller division being the -ha. In the case of Wado and Shoto, once
Ohtsuka became head of his own division, and was no longer accountable to
Funakoshi, Wado became a ryu.

As for Shorin, since Kyan and Chibana never broke away from Matsumura,
they never needed to start a ryuha but instead used different characters
to distinguish themselves apart. Nagamine named his after Matsumura using
the character "matsu" instead.

Just a guess...

Peace.

Tripitaka of AA
12th August 2006, 21:45
I've read something about this name thing and it has raised my curiosity. I don't know much of anything about Karate, Okinawa or otherwise, but the name Kobayashi is my wife's maiden name. One time I noticed that it shared the same kanji as Shorin so I asked about it. Seems I made a mistake. Below is a post I made recently which attempts to explain what a middle-aged Japanese non-budoka thinks about the difference between the words Shorin and Kobayashi;

I asked my Japanese wife (whose maiden name was Kobayashi) how the Kanji are written, and how they compare to the Kanji for "Shorin". We had some discussion and it would seem that [this thread]... needs some input from a Japanese linguist to help clear up some confusion. I am probably not that linguist, but I can tell you that "Ko" and "Sho" do not use the same Kanji, although to a Western eye they may appear to be very similar.

I can post Kanji by using the Japanese IME that is a free download from Microsoft and if you haven't got it loaded, some of my text below will appear as strange collections of characters and punctuation marks, but here goes;

Kobayashi is a fairly common Japanese family name which is written with two Chinese characters (Kanji), KO + HAYASHI 小 + 林 which on their own could be used as meaning "small" and "forest". Hayashi becomes bayashi when used in combination with other characters (don't ask, it gets even more confusing) There are many different Kanji that can be used to make the sound KO, but the one used here is found in words like kozukai "pocket money",
kozutsumi "parcel",
koya "cottage",
kouma "pony"
and kobito "pygmy"

Shorin (sometimes written as Shourin, or sometimes with a line above the "o") is the Japanese pronunciation of the word that the Chinese pronounce as Shaolin. It is written with two characters (Kanji), SHOU + RIN...少 + 林 which can be read as "little" and...err... "forest". For as you will see, the second Kanji is the same as the one given above for Hayashi. In Japanese, each Kanji can be read in two (or sometimes more) ways, the on reading and the kun reading, where one is sometimes known as the "Chinese" way and one as the "Japanese" reading. Hayashi and rin are two ways of reading the Kanji 林.
Other Japanese words that use the Kanji in SHOU are;
Shoujo "young girl",
Shounen "boy, lad",
Shousuu "small number, a few"

Kobayashi :- 小林
Shorin :- 少林

So the words look different to a Japanese person. The subtle difference in the first Kanji is a BIG DIFFERENCE to someone who reads chinese characters. Therefore, it would never mean "Shorin Shorin Karate..." to someone familiar with reading Japanese.

Other points to note; adding the Japanese word for temple makes Shorin into Shorinji (which in Mandarin Chinese would be Shaolin-ssu)...


I don't know how this fits into the history of "Kobayashi-ha Shorin-ryu Karatedo" and I am now really curious to get to the bottom of it. Please help me to understand. Also, what is "Shobayashi"? Whereas the others are familiar as Japanese family names (Matsubayashi, Kobayashi), my wife was nonplussed by Shobayashi.

Does anyone have the Kanji for Kobayashi, Matsubayashi and Shobayashi as written by Okinawan authors?

Andrew S
13th August 2006, 00:13
Just to add to the confusion, I've seen Shorin written as 昭林.

I also recall reading somewhere that Shobayashi was how the founder declared the reading of 少林 for his particular branch of Shorin Ryu.

I believe part of the confusion comes from the lack of documentation (e.g. transmition scrolls), so words in different dialects of Chinese then being passed on in the Ryukyuan language, then into Japanese... confusion ensured.

It's also quite possible that the Shaolin characters came into use because they matched the pronunciation of the name, and also matched some of the oral histories/myths/folklore associated with karate.

My ¥2 worth.

desparoz
13th August 2006, 13:11
Does anyone have the Kanji for Kobayashi, Matsubayashi and Shobayashi as written by Okinawan authors?

Hi David

With respect to your information source, its unfortunately not entirely correct.

Yes, the original Shorin should be as you've described for Shaolin (少林 ). The so-called "Shobayashi" Shorin ryu of Eizo Shimabukuro uses that Kanji, as do the Shorinjiryu traditions of both Kori Hisataka and Joen Nakazato. All of the Shaolin Shorinryu's seem to be descended from Chotoku Kyan.

Kobayshi Shorin ryu is written with the small kanji (小林 ) as in your wife's surname. This seems to be most used by the tradition descended from Choshin Chibaba.

Matsubayashi Ryu uses the kanji 松林.

All three can be pronounced Shorin.

I've heard it said that the kobayshi Shorin was from a misinterpretation by a sign writer that stuck. I don't know if this is true or not, but its a nice story.

I believe that Shoshin Nagamine adopted the Matsubayshi Ryu designation to differentiate his own school, while keeping the Shorin lineage. I believe he used Matsu in an effort to credit Sokon Matsumura, a key figure in the Shorin lineage.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Des

Nyuck3X
13th August 2006, 15:54
I do not have access to the book just now, but I think it was
Bishop's book where someone describes Chibana writing it with
the "small" character and when questioned about it, said something
to the effect of, No, it is not a mistake!.

I'll confirm later.

Ciao!

Tripitaka of AA
13th August 2006, 21:35
Aaaah!

This is getting a little clearer now.

I neglected to mention in my earlier post that my wife is no Budoka, and I am no linguist! But from our two heads had come some questions. The answers are beginning to form in the mist.

In the Japanese language, a sound (like SHO) can be made from a whole load of different Kanji... and each Kanji can be read to make a variety of sounds (like Hayashi also being Rin, etc.).

In the past it was even possible to pick a pretty looking Kanji and pronounce it any way you chose. No really! Parents deciding the name of a child could pick a cool sounding name then pick a cool-looking Kanji to go with it and then voila the Kanji was to be read like that! This got so bad that the government had to clamp down on the naming rules, so you could only use the Kanji that were already known to produce a particular sound. In essence, there became a list of acceptable names.

So from this and earlier answers I think I'm getting it. Please tell me if you think I'm on the right track. Here is my guesswork;

The masters were taught Shuri-te and it became known as Shorinryu. As the groups separated they carried on calling it shorinryu but chose to use different Kanji to make the SHO, with some poetic licence used in the selection. So the Shorinryu that has come to be known as Kobayashi-ryu has earned that "nickname" as the Kanji used by Chibana sensei are commonly found together in the family name "Kobayashi", although it was his intention for it to be pronounced Shorin. The equally common family name Matsubayashi is likewise now used as the "nickname" for a branch of Shorinryu although it was originally intended to be pronounced only as Shorin. The slightly weird one of "Shobayashi" is again just the nickname for the branch that uses the original Sho Kanji, although most people reading it would simply see "Shorin". For normal Japanese grammar "Shobayashi" couldn't work as it mixes On and Kun readings in a single word... which doesn't happen.

Is this it? Do I get the prize?

Gosh, it must be annoying having to explain this to every bloke who thinks he can read Kanji (whether they are from mainland Japan or foreigners from further afield). "Hey, you wrote Shorin with the wrong Kanji, that is a Ko!"... "Grrrrr, no I didn't!"

desparoz
15th August 2006, 09:05
The masters were taught Shuri-te and it became known as Shorinryu. As the groups separated they carried on calling it shorinryu but chose to use different Kanji to make the SHO, with some poetic licence used in the selection. So the Shorinryu that has come to be known as Kobayashi-ryu has earned that "nickname" as the Kanji used by Chibana sensei are commonly found together in the family name "Kobayashi", although it was his intention for it to be pronounced Shorin. The equally common family name Matsubayashi is likewise now used as the "nickname" for a branch of Shorinryu although it was originally intended to be pronounced only as Shorin. The slightly weird one of "Shobayashi" is again just the nickname for the branch that uses the original Sho Kanji, although most people reading it would simply see "Shorin". For normal Japanese grammar "Shobayashi" couldn't work as it mixes On and Kun readings in a single word... which doesn't happen.

Interestingly, Kyan Chotoku, the forebear of Shorinjiryu (karate) and "Shobayashi" Shorinryu also referred to his art as Sukunaihayashi. That would work as not being a mix of on and kun....



Is this it? Do I get the prize?


You got it!

Cheers

Des

armanox
16th August 2006, 05:14
Somebody asked about the Okinawan writing of Kobayashi - My School's logo is the same as Takeshi Miyagi's Logo in Okinawa except the name of the school. I'll ask about the properness of "Shobayashi" since we do have a few people in class that are rather good with Japanese. Perhaps this would warrant writing to Miyagi or Miyahira....

Anyone lineage hunting in Kobayashi Ryu is also welcome to use our resourses.

Since BBCode is not functioning for me at the moment, and not really trying to advertise, http://kobayashiusa.com

Brian Owens
16th August 2006, 06:46
Somebody asked about the Okinawan writing of Kobayashi - My School's logo is the same as Takeshi Miyagi's Logo in Okinawa except the name of the school. ...BBCode is not functioning for me at the moment...
If I may:

http://kobayashiusa.com/Images/Logo.jpg