Ju-Jutsu and Homestudy

[budoka9823]

Hi all,

I have a question....
Now i know most of you dont like the idea of homestudy programs, and i also think that a total beginner would have a hard time learning only from a homestudy program.

But what if a person with expirence, i my case 11 years MA expirence within both Ju-Jutsu (my JJ instruktor was number 4 at WM) and Karate and so, but who not really have got the degrees (Black Belt), since it at the time did not matter so much......
What if he took a homestudy within Ju-Jutsu, and got hes expirence to help in hes studys, would he then make a acceptable Black Belt?

Sincerly,

Jan

[MikeWilliams]

I can kind of see how learning solo kata in karate might be possible on your own, but how on earth are you going to train jujutsu without at least a training partner? Sure, you could pick up tips and ideas from videos or books - but you're still going to need other people in order to practise.

Why can't you find somewhere to train? If you don't have your style of jujutsu nearby, why not train judo? Or MMA? Both would be a good complement to your existing skills, and would develop your grappling immensely.

Finally, why do you want a black belt anyway? If it didn't matter then, why does it matter now?

[budoka9823]

You kind of did not answer my question, can a man with my expirence (11 years) and a few training partners (2-3 persons)....Earn a black belt from a home study and be a good black belt?

[Chuck.Gordon]

You kind of did not answer my question, can a man with my expirence (11 years) and a few training partners (2-3 persons)....Earn a black belt from a home study and be a good black belt?

Probably, but what would it really be worth?

The whole idea behind 'black belts' is to seperate serious students from dabblers.

Which are you? What are you willing to do to prove you're a serious student?

Homestudy? Eh.

I will send you a black belt and certificate for 500 Euro. I'll put 'em in the mail tomorrow. Quick and painless.

Actually, 'black belt' don't mean nothing.

What's important is the interaction between student and teacher and student and student.

YMMV.

cg

[budoka9823]

Well, okay i can see your point....
But again i have seen many many MA teachers from Dojos, wich are not worth anything at all..........
I just think if we are talking about a committet student that have some real background (11 years), who trains 2-4 hours a day and have a little training group and so on, then you are not giving him much credit, even that the knowledge he have, might be worth more then many other Black Belt around.....You are kind of writing like if we are talking of a beginner, but we are talking about one with 11 years MA expirence and i know of many systems where it just takes 2-3 years to get a Black Belt, they cant hold a candle to him in regards of know-how, but they have a BB so they are better, is that what you are saying, because it sounds like that?
Also why would very well recognize masters and arts make homestudy programs if it is selling out, and that are what you are saying is it not?

[MikeWilliams]

Training groups are good. 11 years experience is good (probably). So leave it at that. Just train, and forget about belts and rank.

You might not be a beginner, but your obsession with a £2 piece of cloth makes you seem like one.

To quote Royce Gracie, "a belt covers two inches of your a$$, you've got to cover the rest."

[budoka9823]

Hi Mike,

Ok, i must admint you got a point there....
Nice replay, thanks.

Sincerly,

Jan

[Prince Loeffler]

1)Well, okay i can see your point....

2)But again i have seen many many MA teachers from Dojos, wich are not worth anything at all..........

3) I just think if we are talking about a committet student that have some real background (11 years), who trains 2-4 hours a day and have a little training group and so on, then you are not giving him much credit, even that the knowledge he have, might be worth more then many other Black Belt around.....

4) You are kind of writing like if we are talking of a beginner, but we are talking about one with 11 years MA expirence and i know of many systems where it just takes 2-3 years to get a Black Belt, they cant hold a candle to him in regards of know-how, but they have a BB so they are better, is that what you are saying, because it sounds like that?

5) Also why would very well recognize masters and arts make homestudy programs if it is selling out, and that are what you are saying is it not?


1) I think you missed his points

2) So are you caomparing yourself to these dojo masters ?

3) What is this " Real Background" you speak of ?

4) No one saying a black belt is better than anybody but then again I am not really sure what you are saying either. Please clarify.

5) Would you trust a doctor who learned brain surgey thru video ? Some real masters do NOT promote anyone via video. Video is only good for learning resources not Certification.

[budoka9823]

1) I think you missed his points

You might be right :)

2) So are you caomparing yourself to these dojo masters ?

If a black belt does not mean anything, why do you then call them masters?
I would jugde a person from hes expirence, not belt color, but it seems to my most other else jugde from the color on the belt. I have been in diffenert dojo in my area and i have a big problem with being teached by a person who has less knowlegde then me, but he has a black belt and 2-4 years of traning. I have tried that some times now, but dont get me wrong there are many out there how know are lot more then me, and that is normaly does i seek to train with (i am from a small town with only around 5 different dojo).

3) What is this " Real Background" you speak of ?

My Background is: Karate, Ju-Jutsu, Kickboxing and Ninjutsu...
I train as often as i can (daily), and my instruktor within Ninjutsu (4 dan) had 25+ years expirence, my instuktor within Ju-Jutsu was number 4 at WM and very good, and my kickboxing instruktor was Scan. Master. But since some of them moved and so, i cant train with them any more :(
They where all well recognize black belts, and can kick my butt :)

4) No one saying a black belt is better than anybody but then again I am not really sure what you are saying either. Please clarify.

Well, I think i am saying knowlegde counts more then a belt....
And i think many other only thinks in belts, and if a person dont have a BB, then he is not more then a beginner.
Now i know i the same knowledge as many BB, of course again depending on who, but i have no prof (the BB).....
But it sounds like if i get a black though a homestudy, then my skill level would drop and i would not be as good as now?!?
I know that some of you are thinking hmm 11 years, but we dont know what level of skills he is at, so if he makes a homestudy and get a BB....How can we say he is good or bad and of course you cant.....
But it is a suprise to me that pepole just only thinks bad MA, maybe it is because of the HS is in the pic. and that fills out more than past expirence and so.....
But let me as you in a other way, if a BB from JJ, with 7 years expirence, in hes dojo with traning partner and equitment and so, took a homestudy and got a black belt, would he then make a good BB? (simply yes/no question)

You would properbely say it depends on how good a BB he is first off, right? (and proberly you would lean to a yes).
The only difference betwen him and me, is that i have more expirence and he has a BB from start.....

5) Would you trust a doctor who learned brain surgey thru video ?

I cant not see that is the same thing, but many other things are learned by homestudys these days, and being recognize as ok.

Some real masters do NOT promote anyone via video. Video is only good for learning resources not Certification.

Stephen Hayes and Van Donk are both great Black Belts within Ninjutsu they says on there website that a homestudy is sometimes better then other dojos.
Now i dont say i share that idea, but i have a hard time beliving that those two are only sellouts, and only saying so for the money....

[Eric Spinelli]

Mr. Jensen,

You seem to dislike the fact that some are teaching after such a short time, simply because they have a black belt. Why do you want to be one of them? If experience is all that matters, then do what you want, belt or not.

You seem to dislike the fact that nobody here will agree with your stance on homestudy, let alone the stances of those selling the material. Accept that this is for the same reasons that you dislike those who teach with minimal experience. Keep in mind that rank and teaching certification is something bestowed upon you by somebody else and cannot legitimately happen any other way. With homestudy there is nobody there to grant rank.

However, you keep replying as if you have already made up your mind. If this is the case, I'm not quite sure why you're wasting your time posting here. If you're just seeking the approval of somebody else, look elsewhere.

If a black belt is all you're looking to get out of this, take your 11 years of experience, go spend another 2-4 years training somewhere, and they will give you a black belt, too. You just might learn something. Maybe it will be humility.

Sincerely,
Eric

[johan smits]

Hi Jan,

My two cents. You ask if after 11 years of training following a homestudy program of jujutsu will make you an acceptable black belt.

But what is an "acceptable" black belt? Accepted by whom? Denmark's national jujutsu orgnisation? The E-budo community? The World Program of Masters in Jujutsu? Or by the individual teacher not related to any organization at all?

Being "accepted" always means being part of a larger community. So if you do not have to "answer" to your peers or an organization why not proclaim yourself master and get a black belt? On the other hand you are not certain about that otherwise you would not have asked.

To be quite honest a black belt in itself does not mean so much, what is much more important is what you learn after you have reached that stage. Black belts do not need teachers? Is that it?

Once I teach I teach what I know and I do not need to go to a teacher myself? No need for further progress? This is nonsense. From that point of view a homestudy program would not be much of a help. Sure you can get a black belt from the program. You will be recognized by the program.

Is that what you want? Then do it.

Best,

Johan Smits

[cybertipster]

I can see what your original point was. The question is once you have taken the homestudy course, where would you go to test for the BB. I have been training for 19 yrs and I have achieved a blackbelt in Ken po, JuJutsu, and Mi Guk Kwan Tang Soo Do. I have purchased training videos and found a lot of variations to techniques that I have incorporated into my own style, but I still had to have an organiztion to go before to test.

If you can find a good homestudy course and a reputable organization to test in front of then I say go for the homestudy. Just remember that from a video you can get no feedback and the greatest part to being an actual pupil in a school is the instructor, because the instructor can show you the inticacy of the technique that is sometimes lost by the camera.

[Finny]

budoka9823 and cybertipster, for what it's worth, the first rule you agreed to when you joined E-Budo was to sign each of your posts with your real full name.

This can be easily done, by going to 'User CP' at the top left corner of the page, then going to 'Edit Signature', and writing your name in your signature - then every post you make will be signed with your name.

[Tim Mailloux]

1) I have been in diffenert dojo in my area and i have a big problem with being teached by a person who has less knowlegde then me, but he has a black belt and 2-4 years of traning.....


You seem upset and unwilling to train at your local dojo because the instructor has not been training as long as you, but has a Black belt and out ranks you. But do you have any idea how intense his training had been in those years? How do you know he has less knowledge that you?

As an example, my aikido sensei went to Japan as a nikyu, trained 8 plus hours a day, 6 days a week as an uchi-deshi (private student) at Aikikai Hombu dojo for just over 3 years. In those 3 years she went from nikyu, to 4th dan and was told to return to the states and open a dojo. In your opinion was her rank at that time inflated because she had only been training for about 5 years total and was a 4th dan compared to your 11 years with no dan rank?

Also, in most Japanese martial arts, shodan (or 1st degree BB) means very little. The literal translation for shodan mean first step. So in most Japanese martial arts getting your shodan means you are know a serious student of that art, and the real training can begin.

[Itten]

I don't know about this home study thing. it sounds a bit like sex without a partner. i t might make you feel good for a while but it sure aint the "real thing".http://www.e-budo.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=404543#