PDA

View Full Version : Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?



WaltJ
11th May 2006, 05:39
How do the other styles match up with BJJ?

Who would win in a street fight most of the time?

Chris McLean
11th May 2006, 11:30
Why do you ask? What do you think? And Who really cares?

MikeWilliams
11th May 2006, 11:39
1999 called and wants its thread back.

amadus
11th May 2006, 15:51
You guys are so mean--funny, but mean.

johnst_nhb
11th May 2006, 15:55
How do the other styles match up with BJJ?

Who would win in a street fight most of the time?


It has been shown over and over that if you are a blue belt in BJJ, you can:

-defeat anyone of any size on the street
-bang hot chicks/guys
-dojo storm any TMA dojo and embarrass the instructor in front of all of his/her students

There is really nothing else to add.

WaltJ
11th May 2006, 17:25
Isn't BJJ a sport, whereas Jujutsu is engineered for street effectiveness?

Besides, I don't want to get into a fight at the bar and have some dude dry humping me on the ground.

Texasmic
11th May 2006, 18:40
There's like, sharp rocks and broken glass on the ground!

and I don't want to have to shave my head!

johnst_nhb
11th May 2006, 18:57
There's like, sharp rocks and broken glass on the ground!

and I don't want to have to shave my head!

Yes, when I get home from just about anywhere, I have to spend 15 minutes picking the sharp rocks and broken glass out of my shoes. Its really quite a pain...

MikeWilliams
11th May 2006, 19:31
My frennnn, using the superiorr powerr of zhoo zhiitsu, you will take yor opponent to the groun, where he will be defenshlesh.

From the top poseeshon, you will not have to worry about sharp glass and hocks.

Porra.

hectokan
11th May 2006, 22:34
I am actually working on a patent design formulated especially for this type of scenario.It works like this......The BJJ practicioner slips on and secures this plastic back shield similar to the way you would put on a bullet proof vest,everytime he goes out into hostile enviorements.


This works great at bars,discos,partys and most crowded places,you simply jump to guard when confronted with a altercation and "wallaa" rocks and glass,and debris,all the sudden do not effect your guard performance one bit.

as a matter of fact the plastic shield allows a more responsive back spin inorder to triangle and armbar multiple oponnents at the same time.


Never again will TMA laugh at the notion of a BJJ practioner jumping to guard on the streets.

johnst_nhb
11th May 2006, 22:35
I am actually working on a patent design formualted especially for this type of scenario.It works like this......The BJJ practicioner slips on and secures this plastic back shield similar to the way you would put on a bullet proof vest,everytime he goes out into hostile enviorements.


This works great at bars,discos,partys and most crowded places,you simply jump to guard when confronted with a altercation and "wallaa" rocks and glass,and debris,all the sudden do not effect your guard performance one bit.

as a matter of fact the plastic shield allows a more responsive back spin inorder to triangle and armbar multiple oponnents at the same time.


Never again will TMA laugh at the notion of a BJJ practioner jumping to guard on the streets.

So if I am visualizing this correctly, it would be like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle shell-like device?

hectokan
11th May 2006, 22:38
So if I am visualizing this correctly, it would be like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle shell-like device?


Exactly,they were actualy 15 years ahead of time with my idea.They just did not grasp the ninja turtle/bjj crosstraining possibilties.

Budd
12th May 2006, 15:51
There's like, sharp rocks and broken glass on the ground!

and I don't want to have to shave my head!

Don't forget LAVA!!!

johnst_nhb
12th May 2006, 16:03
Exactly,they were actualy 15 years ahead of time with my idea.They just did not grasp the ninja turtle/bjj crosstraining possibilties.

Do you think I could get one of these with the Tapout logo on the back?

Chris McLean
12th May 2006, 16:36
The impact created from the body falling and hitting the broken glass on the ground is nice to.
Last time I checked the ground is harder than my knuckles or the bottom of my feet.

hectokan
12th May 2006, 22:54
Do you think I could get one of these with the Tapout logo on the back?


now that would be cool!

WaltJ
13th May 2006, 00:52
So who wins?

Jock Armstrong
13th May 2006, 01:20
The answer is


42

Brian Owens
13th May 2006, 04:44
How do the other styles match up with BJJ?
There are some similarities, and some differences.

Who would win in a street fight most of the time?
The one with superior skills and superior attitude.

(Are these questions for real, BTW?)

powerof0ne
13th May 2006, 06:24
I've been practicing BJJ off and on for about 6 years now. I'm currently under gracie-barra and from my own experience I would say bjj is awesome for grappling on the ground. Other arts have greater strengths for other areas. BJJ isn't the greatest art in the world for multiple attackers..I remember when I first started bjj back in 99 or 00, someone tried to demonstrate how they would take on multiple attackers. It was very dumb, to say the least. Something like choke one person with one arm while hitting another with your hand and kicking the third...so on, and so on.
I'd reccommend anyone training in bjj to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's the best martial art.
Why get a tapout logo on the back of your gi when you could get the bad boy logo ;)?

TonyU
14th May 2006, 02:19
No offense to anyone here, but no art is the best for multiple attackers.
The only advantage in a standup art is you can run if the opening arises.

powerof0ne
14th May 2006, 02:25
I highly disagree with this..Muay Thai would be much better for multiple attackers, more so then BJJ..karate would be, aikido would be. In BJJ you're on the ground grappling with one person at a time. Sure you could do a kimura standing up, but what if the person has a buddy that jumps in?
In Muay Thai you could leg kick one individual and then punch, elbow, knee, etc. the other(s) and keep attacking.
All arts have strengths and weaknesses and I will take back what I say if you can tell me how bjj would be practical for multiple attackers.
For one on one, bjj is awesome.

TonyU
14th May 2006, 02:45
Think so? Ok.
BTW I didn't say bjj would be practical for multiple attackers.
What I am saying is that multiple attackers is not that easy to defend. Unlike TV or the movies attackers don't take turns to attack. Also if their armed it brings it to a whole another dimension.

Brian Owens
14th May 2006, 08:31
No offense to anyone here, but no art is the best for multiple attackers.

...Also if [they're] armed it brings it to a whole [other] dimension.
That would be true of single attackers as well, though, wouldn't it? Armed versus unarmed always changes the scenario.

As to the first point, while there may be no "best" art for multiple-attacker situations, some arts are "better" than others.

Arts that were developed in/intended for actual combat/defense situations will by nature generally be better suited for multiple-attacker situations than those that were developed for the ring/octagon.

One isn't "better" than another in a general sense, but each has specific strengths and weaknesses in a specific sense.


...The only advantage in a standup art is you can run if the opening arises. [Emphasis added.]
I disagree entirely here. There are many advantages to being standing versus on the ground when facing multiple attackers.

I find your statement...how can I say this...ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

2.

TonyU
14th May 2006, 12:42
I find your statement...how can I say this...ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

2.
Oh ok.
.....

cxt
15th May 2006, 13:50
Been reading this thread with a great deal of amusement.

Brian's right.

All these "what ifs" and "oh yeahs" being poised.

Bottom line?

Arts are utterly dependent on the person using them for effect.
"Arts" fight NOBODY---its the person using them that fight.
So claiming that "this art" or "that art" would be "better" to fight multiple attackers is pretty jacked up.

The abiltiy to take on multiple people depends entirly on whom is fighting whom.

Matt Hughs could probably fight a couple of guys pretty well---but unless Matt Hughs is WITH you when it goes down, it makes very little difference what he can do---the real question is CAN YOU?
And even Matt is going to get his butt kicked if he was trying to fight say, 3 OTHER UFC guys at once.

And I don't care what art you practice--unless its a weapon art and you have it on you--and your oppts DON'T.
ANYONE trying to fight mulitple attackers is at a serious, probably highly injurous disadvantage.

The biggest problem with "what if" situations being spun out is that all you have to do to everytime you get an answer--you just say "oh, what if?????"

Texasmic
15th May 2006, 14:32
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...

It's not gay as long as you don't make eye contact! LOL

powerof0ne
15th May 2006, 16:35
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...

It's not gay as long as you don't make eye contact! LOL

haha, I love that pic with Vanderlei Silva smiling while being grappled from the back.

Anyway, I have had to defend myself on a few occasions with multiple people, and I didn't once consider going to the ground to grapple, I wonder why.

Unfortunately a lot of "brave" people like to beat up one individual with 4+ friends. So, yes, the chances are increasing that you, a friend, or even I will have to defend ourselves against multiple attackers.

Remember, "zhjiu-sjitsu is ze best" ;)

hectokan
16th May 2006, 03:38
Do you think I could get one of these with the Tapout logo on the back?


John,

Maybe we can market this thing!I mean if somebody thought of plastic nunchakus,safety chops,and red,white and blue gi's,then why not?.The only problem is that we need to capitlize on this thing now,while BJJ is hot.


The only downside is that I would hate to find our plastic turtle shells laying around years later in some country swamp meet after the BJJ craze is over.

Margaret Lo
16th May 2006, 16:08
No offense to anyone here, but no art is the best for multiple attackers.
The only advantage in a standup art is you can run if the opening arises.

And that's why I carry my rokushaku bo (white oak beauty) with me at all times, whether I'm on the Turnpike or the Garden State, or that crazy mob scene of parking in downtown Princeton!! I'm best equipped for multiple attackers, and god help anybody who tries to steal my spot. :D Just kidding! Don't arrest me Tony.

M

Prince Loeffler
16th May 2006, 18:04
And that's why I carry my rokushaku bo (white oak beauty) with me at all times, whether I'm on the Turnpike or the Garden State, or that crazy mob scene of parking in downtown Princeton!! I'm best equipped for multiple attackers, and god help anybody who tries to steal my spot. :D Just kidding! Don't arrest me Tony.

M


I always have my fierce Chihuahua named Rabies in my car with me at all times. :) :) :) :) :) :)

Andrew S
16th May 2006, 20:52
Will Brazilian Jujitsu make my wife more submissive?

Prince Loeffler
16th May 2006, 21:27
Will Brazilian Jujitsu make my wife more submissive?


Only in our dreams Andrew !....... :D :D :D :D No amount of Martial arts can changes the essense of a Woman ! :)

George Kohler
16th May 2006, 21:30
Looks like we have a troll.

TEA
17th May 2006, 00:13
How do the other styles match up with BJJ?

Who would win in a street fight most of the time?

OK, I'll play. Me with my M14 style rifle at 600yds. At least until either someone gets on the horn and calls down some arty or tacair on me or Arnie comes along with a plasma rifle in a 40wat range. My idea of a street fight is levelling the whole street.

George Kohler
17th May 2006, 01:06
He will not be able to answer you right now.

He is in E-Budo Hell at this time.

TonyU
17th May 2006, 01:50
And that's why I carry my rokushaku bo (white oak beauty) with me at all times, whether I'm on the Turnpike or the Garden State, or that crazy mob scene of parking in downtown Princeton!! I'm best equipped for multiple attackers, and god help anybody who tries to steal my spot. :D Just kidding! Don't arrest me Tony.

M
No worries Margaret, rokushaku bo is not illegal in NJ. :)

Dude
17th May 2006, 13:48
Looks like we have a troll.

lol WOW

One naive (admittedly dumb) guy asks a naive, dumb question and he is a troll. He gets two edifying responses. Among 20-something ridiculing, mocking responses about plastic "ninja-turtle-like" back shells. And HE is the troll. Not the guy who suggested that if you practice BJJ you will have a head full of glass shards. Not the guys who mock BJJ with turtle shells with logos on them. No, the guy who asks a dumb question probably from not knowing any better is a troll.

So let me understand your definition here, an ignorant, naiive "noob" who asks questions is a troll while people who mock and ridicule him, making jokes at his expense are valued members.

So by that definition every 3rd grader in the nation is a troll while a 20 year old who punks them around is a saint?

Amazing. Go ahead and delete this, from your definitions it's practically an honor to be banned.

TEA
17th May 2006, 15:53
Dude, sign your real name, per E-Budo rules.

Perhaps if the person in question had spent some time using the search function and reading previous threads instead of posting an inflamatory "Chevy vs Ford" question, he would have found some useful information.

Jeff Cook
17th May 2006, 17:01
That would be true of single attackers as well, though, wouldn't it? Armed versus unarmed always changes the scenario.

As to the first point, while there may be no "best" art for multiple-attacker situations, some arts are "better" than others.

Arts that were developed in/intended for actual combat/defense situations will by nature generally be better suited for multiple-attacker situations than those that were developed for the ring/octagon.

One isn't "better" than another in a general sense, but each has specific strengths and weaknesses in a specific sense.


I disagree entirely here. There are many advantages to being standing versus on the ground when facing multiple attackers.

I find your statement...how can I say this...ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

2.

Absolutely brilliant. You are lecturing a guy who is not only a karate sensei, but he also holds blue belt rank in BJJ, AND has been in more single- and multiple-combatant fights than most people still living. Also, he is an extremely experienced and qualified LE officer; he can fill in the details on that if he so choses.

Sorry to be so blunt, Brian - I respect your opinion, and I have never had a problem with you. All I am suggesting is that you at least ask the man what the basis is for his opinion before you call it "ridiculous."

In the spirit of that, what is the basis of your opinion?

Jeff Cook

Jeff Cook
17th May 2006, 17:08
Brian, I realized after typing the above post that you may indeed be ignorant of the standup component of original BJJ, which is still taught by many of the Gracies and their affiliates. Then again many BJJ students are not even aware of it, because the standup training usually comes after a significant amount of ground training, and unfortunately BJJ is plagued with the same problem other arts are plagued with: students dropping out after a few months or a year of training, and then claiming to be an "expert" on what BJJ training is about. FACT: BJJ is not just a ground-fighting system.

I think you may have erroneously assumed that Tony was advocating fighting multiple opponents on the ground, due to your faulty definition of BJJ.

Jeff Cook

Margaret Lo
17th May 2006, 20:33
Will Brazilian Jujitsu make my wife more submissive?


Only in our dreams Andrew !....... :D :D :D :D No amount of Martial arts can changes the essense of a Woman ! :)

You know you surrendered all power when you said "I do" you fool!!! When she had your baby, your liability became securitized by your DNA. Your only hope is to beg your mother for help. She can apply the following traditional MIL (Mother-in-Law) Arts:

Backhanded compliments: Oh you surprise me with how good you look!
Direct insult: oh dear I had to throw away that casserole, you know how i hate tuna.
Refusal to cooperate: I know I promised to baby sit saturday but..you know I had to change my schedule for my bridge night.

So while the ladies war, you at least have a little peace and quiet and seem sooo much more reasonable in comparison. Not to be cynical or anything, I've never had a mother in law.

M

Margaret Lo
17th May 2006, 20:56
I find your statement...how can I say this...ridiculous. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is.

2.


Looks like Tony U's been slacking off, and all he can give is a Jersey 2 cents worth. Where are your priorities Tony U? And by the way...Thanks!

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15661

Cocaine worth $1.6M seized
Wednesday, May 17, 2006

By DOUGLASS CROUSE
STAFF WRITER


For high-level drug dealers, it's an axiom: Always be prepared to move the stash.

Two Passaic County distributors did just that last week, authorities said, switching locations because they suspected they might soon become law-enforcement targets -- if they weren't already.

Their instincts were right: Detectives descended on their newly rented house in West Paterson on Tuesday, arresting the two partners and seizing 180 pounds of cocaine -- worth about $1.6 million -- they had tucked away in the attic, investigators said.

"They had found a nice, quiet location and were just going to try to blend in," said Detective Capt. Robert Prause, commanding officer of the Passaic County Prosecutor's Office Narcotics Task Force.

Three alleged mid-level dealers also were arrested during simultaneous raids in Paterson, Clifton and North Bergen, with seizures of $20,000 in cash, five luxury vehicles and a .44-caliber pistol. Authorities withheld the five defendants' names, arguing that revealing their identities could jeopardize a continuing investigation. No arrests were made in North Bergen, but cash was seized there.

They described one alleged high-level dealer as a Colombian national who had been living in Paterson and the other as the renter of the West Paterson house. Of the alleged mid-level dealers, two were living in Paterson and the other in Clifton. All five, who range in age from 35 to 50, were charged with first-degree narcotics offenses and taken to the Passaic County Jail, authorities said.

"If you saw them on the street, you'd never expect they'd be doing this," said Detective Lt. Danyal Bachok of the Prosecutor's Office.

Authorities said the men would take raw cocaine and cut it with powdered aspirin or some other diluting agent, then sell the drugs in arranged meetings with mid-level dealers.

Prause said the dealers were operating out of Paterson until late last week. They apparently changed locations, he said, after getting word about recent arrests of others in the drug network elsewhere in the country.

"Sometimes, they'll hold on to a location for a while, but if there's something that spooks them they'll move on," Prause said. "It all depends on their comfort level."

That comfort level is as much the result of fear about being robbed by competitors as it is fear of being arrested.

Investigators said the cocaine traveled from Colombia through Mexico to Texas, then to Chicago and, finally, North Jersey. The 180 pounds that were seized have a wholesale value of $1.6 million, and could have fetched more than double that on the streets of Paterson and Passaic, Prause said.

Prause said one effect of Tuesday's seizure might be a small increase in local cocaine prices.

Investigators say the rental house on Chestnut Grove Avenue ideally suited the high-level dealers' needs. The one-story brick home is on a dead-end street around the corner from access ramps to Route 80, with a detached garage that neighbors said has long had covered windows.

Inside, investigators said they found a mattress and box spring in each of the house's three bedrooms, along with a toothbrush, a few drinking glasses and a small amount of food.

"It was almost a barracks setup, with only what they needed to survive," said Detective Lt. Vince Mingione of West Paterson. "It wasn't so much lived in as worked in and slept in."

One neighbor, Mark Gorski, said he saw men unloading boxes from a U-Haul truck parked outside the house during the weekend. On Monday night, a car with tinted windows sat parked outside his own house -- he said he learned the next day that a detective had been doing surveillance.

Another neighbor, Bill Bruce, pointed out that shrubbery largely obscured the rented house's facade, and maple trees cast long shadows over its front walk.

"We only have the one streetlight, so it gets pretty dark in front of that house at night," he said.

He said the house had been vacant for many months and that the owner had been asking $2,600 in monthly rent.

Detectives knocked on the door just after 5 a.m. Tuesday. One of the two high-level dealers answered, and detectives found the other man still in bed, Prause said.

The arrests resulted from a six-month investigation by a team of 10 detectives assigned to the county's anti-drug task force. They were assisted by officers from Paterson and West Paterson and agents from the federal Drug Enforcement Administration.

hectokan
17th May 2006, 22:13
lol WOW

One naive (admittedly dumb) guy asks a naive, dumb question and he is a troll. He gets two edifying responses. Among 20-something ridiculing, mocking responses about plastic "ninja-turtle-like" back shells. And HE is the troll. Not the guy who suggested that if you practice BJJ you will have a head full of glass shards. Not the guys who mock BJJ with turtle shells with logos on them. No, the guy who asks a dumb question probably from not knowing any better is a troll.


Just for the record I am a avid BJJ practicioner and enthusiast,have been for a long time.My joke about the plastic turtle shells was just that,a tongue and cheek joke.knowing full well that my opinon won't been taken seriously on this forum,so I decided to join the fun


I played along with the direction of this thread simply because I know how this thread would go, especially when dealing with the o big multiple opponent questions.

It's funny the big multiple oponent dilema question was never a real big deal or concern for anyone interested in the fighting arts back in the 60s or 70s.It has become kinda of like a vise for most TMA to use in their disscussions today.Dealing with a single tough sob anyway you could,however you could was the mathematical problem everyone wanted to solve back in the day and they say I'm not tradtional (lol).Nobody cared about hypothetical questions,Nobody was talking about "what if rocks,or bottles" are laying around on the ground.The theoretical (because that's what it is)multiple opponent question was just that "A THEORY"that nodody cared about. Now nobody wants to deal with the problem of the single bad Mother &^^%%$$ starring at you across the tatami or the dojo.Everybody is convinced that on the streets the magical secrets will all the sudden shift things in their favor,like puff the magic dragon.

All of the sudden how you handle yourself in a single physical contact endeavor that requires any sort of physical conditioning is not part of any logistical fight question.

lol

Prince Loeffler
17th May 2006, 22:45
Hector,

Many of us saw your Humour, I don't think that you need to explain at all, specialy to Mr. William Dotrieve, He is perhaps trolling somehere now :) OMG ! Closed all the gates ! :)

Brad Burklund
17th May 2006, 22:55
Wow! Sometimes you guys crack me up. :) I am not a regular to these boards, but sometimes peruse for the fun of it since this forum seems often times a bit more "academic" in its arguments and is well structured from the backgrounds of those who write here.

But, Hectokan and CXT had the right of it, IMO... not the art, but the player. But also the training paradigm one uses to practice. And for anyone who dismisses the "sportive" element of grappling, one should actually take it upon him/her-self to participate in that arena before dismissing it.

A throw is a throw, a punch is a punch, and a choke is a choke...regardless of the contextual "sporting" element. These things simply do not change from self-defense to sport, they are intrinsically what they are, intent may be different, but application is not. It is in the resistive training practices that technique and application of technique are utilized, not in the non-contact environment.

I would also add a few questions: Why is it that a karate-ka trained formatively in his art who then partakes entry into say, the K-1 Grad Prixs, looks remarkably like the rest of the performers there who are kick boxers or trained in MT? Why is it that San-Sou fighters look like there doing a version of MT, but are supposedly coming from a Chinese background? How can one tell, when it's no-gi grappling, if it's a judo-ka, wrestler, or BJJer rolling?

Well, I think the answer is less in the stylistic version of a particular art, but in it's utility. This is often where the aspect of "style" bows to performance; and thus moves toward apparent similarity of technique regardless of its origins. When requisite utility is the name of the game, then function is all there is.

-Brad Burklund

amadus
18th May 2006, 00:06
How can one tell, when it's no-gi grappling, if it's a judo-ka, wrestler, or BJJer rolling?


I'm fairly certain I could tell the difference between a wrestler and a judoka a mile away--no matter the attire. At a little closer distance I might even be able to distinguish a judoka from a BJJ player.

Brad Burklund
18th May 2006, 00:24
Amadus,

Perhaps you can. :) I am the one with the difficulties in looking. :)

I remember seeing my judo instructor roll with some BJJ guys and it looked pretty much the same when using BJJ rules for newaza.

I do note he had a lot of grappling experience though and won the BB heavy weight BJJ Pan Am game when the held them at Dominguez Hills, CA in 2002.

-Brad Burklund

TonyU
18th May 2006, 00:52
Jeff and Margaret, I appreciate your support.

I can see how my post was misunderstood, but since I am not regular poster here, and most here do not know my background, thus I decided not to continue the discussion.

On that note Jeff is correct in that I was not inferring to fight multiple attackers on the ground. My intent was to point that no style has the trademark on multiple opponnent unless you train as much as possible all the aspects of multiple attackers.

By all aspects, I'm talking about the adrenal, psychological stressed aspect involved in multiple attacker scenario. It's not just punching or kicking multipe people. It's also about being able to psychologicaly able to survive the assault, because that's what it is, and assault.

Most good MA practioner IMO can deal with one on one depending on the type of fight or attack. Dealing with multiple brings it up to whole another dimension. Like anything else there are exceptions.

Even in multiple attackers I would like to have some experience on the ground for when Mr. Murphy shows up. I woould have better chance of surviving the encounter in the even I may end up there.

My $0.02

TEA
18th May 2006, 01:51
Reminds me a bit of what my first Tae Kwon Do instructor would tell us when we did multiple attacker drills (both standing and from on the ground). "If you ever get jumped by multiple attackers, chances are you are going to get your butt kicked. At the least, you are going to get hurt. The best you can hope for is to fight your way out of the situattion, and inflict as much damage as you can on your attackers in the process so that they may think twice before chasing after you as you run as fast as you can to safety."

Oh, as a side note, one thing I learned from him that I like to teach in self-defense drills is to yell, "help" and "someone call the police" as soon you have gained at least some degree of control over the situation, whether thats putting your attacker down or just creating some breathing room. This does two things. Most importantly, it may get someone to call in the cavalry. Of secondary importance, if you do end up putting your attacker down and injuring them, it makes clear to any witnesses that you were the victim and not a willing participant.

hectokan
18th May 2006, 02:03
A throw is a throw, a punch is a punch, and a choke is a choke...regardless of the contextual "sporting" element. These things simply do not change from self-defense to sport, they are intrinsically what they are, intent may be different, but application is not. It is in the resistive training practices that technique and application of technique are utilized, not in the non-contact environment.

I would also add a few questions: Why is it that a karate-ka trained formatively in his art who then partakes entry into say, the K-1 Grad Prixs, looks remarkably like the rest of the performers there who are kick boxers or trained in MT? Why is it that San-Sou fighters look like there doing a version of MT, but are supposedly coming from a Chinese background? How can one tell, when it's no-gi grappling, if it's a judo-ka, wrestler, or BJJer rolling?

Well, I think the answer is less in the stylistic version of a particular art, but in it's utility. This is often where the aspect of "style" bows to performance; and thus moves toward apparent similarity of technique regardless of its origins. When requisite utility is the name of the game, then function is all there is.

-Brad Burklund


That was a great analogy!

Brian Owens
18th May 2006, 04:07
...Sorry to be so blunt, Brian - I respect your opinion, and I have never had a problem with you. All I am suggesting is that you at least ask the man what the basis is for his opinion before you call it "ridiculous."

In the spirit of that, what is the basis of your opinion?

Brian, I realized after typing the above post that you may indeed be ignorant of the standup component of original BJJ, which is still taught by many of the Gracies and their affiliates.
I don't think his points are ridiculous...except for the position that the only advantage to a standup postion is being able to run away.

Also, athough my knowledge of BJJ is limited to say the least, I do have some knowledge of its history, development, and principles, as well as some small knowledge of jujutsu in general. So I am aware that there are methods of tachiwaza within the systems. If you read my post above you'll see that I never said otherwise.

I stand by my assertion that there is no superior art, only superior artists, and that the winner in any confrontation, whether in the ring or on the street, will be the one with superior skills and superior attitude.

The basis of my opinion is having been involved in martial arts since 1968, including training in Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Shito Ryu Karate, and Seiki Ryu Kenjutsu & Jodo; and having been a military policeman, private security officer & field supervisor, certified trainer, and bodyguard for 25 years.

HTH.

Jeff Cook
18th May 2006, 10:37
Brian, I agree with your post above, and you certainly do have an impressive background. Perhaps we can write this one off as a miscommunication, in light of Tony's last post and your clarification?

Jeff Cook

Tripitaka of AA
18th May 2006, 18:39
I am familiar with both Brian and Tony's posts here and on Budoseek, respectively. I was surprised to see such a simple misunderstanding develop between two such experienced folk. The trouble in this case is, I suspect, both parties are far more used to encountering Users such as myself = inexperienced, opinionated wannabees that find it easy to act as keyboard warrior experts without having any solid background in anything relevant. If either of them were to catch me trying to put forth my own thoughts as valid theory then I'd be exposed in a microsecond. The fact that many Users are like me, means that people like Tony and Brian (and Jeff and loads of others, obviously), have little time for blanket statements that come off as all-knowing.

And so, I am very pleased to see these two gentlemen engaging in such a discourse as this, for I can glean much insight from their reative experiences without ever leaving my chair. I'll raise my cup of coffee in a toast, to the continued online presence of TonyU and Brian, et al.

powerof0ne
18th May 2006, 18:46
Brian, I realized after typing the above post that you may indeed be ignorant of the standup component of original BJJ, which is still taught by many of the Gracies and their affiliates. Then again many BJJ students are not even aware of it, because the standup training usually comes after a significant amount of ground training, and unfortunately BJJ is plagued with the same problem other arts are plagued with: students dropping out after a few months or a year of training, and then claiming to be an "expert" on what BJJ training is about. FACT: BJJ is not just a ground-fighting system.

I think you may have erroneously assumed that Tony was advocating fighting multiple opponents on the ground, due to your faulty definition of BJJ.

Jeff Cook

I totally agree with you that some BJJ schools, and only some teach the stand up self-defense that you speak of. I was fortunate enough to train at one such school but I also taught Muay Thai to the students at this bjj school, and so did my brother. In my opinion it still was a lot more focused on the ground for strategies that would be much better against one opponent at a time.
Granted, I haven't trained in every BJJ association(just carlson gracie and gracie-barra)and have nothing but respect for BJJ. I would reccomend that everybody should spend some time training in BJJ but I also stand by my opinion that it isn't the best art to deal with multiple opponents.

chrismoses
18th May 2006, 20:47
The basis of my opinion is having been involved in martial arts since 1968, including training in Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Shito Ryu Karate, and Seiki Ryu Kenjutsu & Jodo; and having been a military policeman, private security officer & field supervisor, certified trainer, and bodyguard for 25 years.

HTH.


Brian, care to put some numbers with all of that experience? I had no idea your background was so varied.

Chris McLean
19th May 2006, 01:26
I know most BJJ schools dont address mulitple oponents. I have some training tapes from Joe Moreira that have drills for multiple opponents standing and I have some even better training tapes from www.leglocks.com for multiple opponents on the ground. I know only a little BJJ compared to Jeff C and Tony U.

Brian Owens
19th May 2006, 04:47
Brian, care to put some numbers with all of that experience? I had no idea your background was so varied.
Varied, yes; but nothing too impressive.

A few years here and a few years there, and lots of gaps in between. I don't have any teaching licenses in any traditional martial arts; in fact, the highest rank I got in anything was in Seiki Ryu, and as you know that wasn't much more than an advanced beginner's rank.

But having "been around" professionally, having been in a few scuffles and hospitalized once (you should have seen my partner & the perp!), combined with those little tidbits of various MAs, I've got my own opinions on things, as everyone does.


...Perhaps we can write this one off as a miscommunication, in light of Tony's last post and your clarification?
Yeah, I think so. I didn't intend it to come across as being as critical as it sounded.

Andrew S
19th May 2006, 05:15
I guess BJJ won't be overly effective against multiple wives, then? :p

Margaret Lo
19th May 2006, 18:29
I guess BJJ won't be overly effective against multiple wives, then? :p

Hmm in the same house? Probably less painful to perform seppuku with a KFC plastic spork. :D I have several Chinese friends whose grandfathers had several wives, but each had her own house and staff. So go for it Andrew.

M

mews
20th May 2006, 23:04
I knew a girl in college whose grandfather had 4 wives - in different countries, across several continents.

They were an Indian trading family, and the wives ran the local offices.

different continents worked.

mew

hectokan
21st May 2006, 14:10
Helio Gracies opinion on procreation.

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/helio2.htm

ZoomBee
1st June 2006, 09:15
Well, Mr. Helio Gracie belongs to a past generation. His ideas about anything unrelated to MA reflect that. In Brasil that is not even considered extreme bigotry or sexism when it comes from elders... I'm not saying I agree with his ideas, but they really don't come as a surprise.

What was really shocking to me regarding the article was the poor quality of the translation, when you understand that it is supposed to have been published by the PLAYBOY magazine. I guess it may have been translated by the website owner, in which case it can be promoted to "average" amateur quality.

Anyway... I would like to know what you guys think about Helio's conceptions about MA. I myself found him very much higher up in the BUDO scale than the regular BJJ practitioner.

Best.