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knarly b
16th May 2006, 13:46
Hi

Does anyone know of a good resource telling of Takamatsu's time in China as im interested in reading all about it.
Ive found little bits and read Soke's Essence of Ninjutsu but id like to read in more depth about it and all the challenges he fought.

Thanks very much.

Bujinkan83
16th May 2006, 13:51
Hello, here is a link to the dojo where i train there is a little info on Takamatsu Sensei on there hope this is ok, it also mentions the time he went to China.
http://www.bujinkanmanchester.co.uk/takamatsu.htm

knarly b
16th May 2006, 15:33
Thank you Giuseppe, but ive seen a lot of similar information and it has only piqued my fascination in the subject. Im really looking for more complete accounts if any exist.

I feel its something we could benefit from knowing as we all aspire to take in Takamatsu's teachings. but then again i understand if Hatsumi Soke wants to keep some memories of his mentor to himself for personal reasons or due to the stories containing sensitive information which he would rather transmit verbally if at all.

Eric Baluja
16th May 2006, 16:41
Not quite on-topic, but not completely off-topic either: Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?

Just as an example, outside of Okinawan/Japanese karate, has anyone ever seen anything like Gyokko-ryu 'hicho no kamae' in any other koryu Japanese close-quarters fighting system? What about Koto-ryu "hoko no kamae'? Or any of the Gyokko-/Koto-ryu kamae for that matter?

And that's just the kamae...what about the movement? Circles and lines? Generating power from the foot, knee, hip, spine?

Makes ya wonder...

knarly b
16th May 2006, 17:21
i think u could start a new thread on that one.

Gyokko Ryu was supposed to have come from China originally anyway. And if you look back a bit, its speculated that virtually all Asian martial arts have come from India originally.

Also, similarities can be seen between all (good) martial arts because they utillise the innate strengths and weaknesses of the human body.

i learnt (saw) a move in lesson last week which is very similar to a wing chun move, uses rolling elbow to push opponents arm down but after that its different. similarities are bound to pop up, its the style which differs more prominently.

anyway, back on topic!? . . .

Evan London
16th May 2006, 20:23
I just received an e-mail today advertising a new book about Takamatsu Sensei:

"Takamatsu Toshitsugu - the last shinobi" by Wolfgang Ettig

The link provided was:
www.takamatsu-sensei.info

Disclaimer: I have no connection to this book, nor do I know the author. I have not read it, nor have I purchased it yet.

Gary Arthur
16th May 2006, 20:28
Posted by Eric Baluja

Not quite on-topic, but not completely off-topic either: Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?

Just as an example, outside of Okinawan/Japanese karate, has anyone ever seen anything like Gyokko-ryu 'hicho no kamae' in any other koryu Japanese close-quarters fighting system? What about Koto-ryu "hoko no kamae'? Or any of the Gyokko-/Koto-ryu kamae for that matter?

OK going from memory there is a book entitled "Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop that have some photographs in that look very similar to some of the kamae in the 9 schools. I think one looks like Hoko and i'm sure there a kosei.

Gary Arthur

George Kohler
16th May 2006, 22:06
I've actually seen Tanaka Fumon using a posture very similar to Koto-ryu's seigan no kamae. Some of you may say, "Well, he is a student of Kaminaga Shigemi, so he must be showing Koto-ryu." This was before he became a student of Kaminaga and it wasn't Koto-ryu he was showing. I think he was demonstrating Enshin Ryu.

taken67
16th May 2006, 23:09
I just received an e-mail today advertising a new book about Takamatsu Sensei:

"Takamatsu Toshitsugu - the last shinobi" by Wolfgang Ettig

The link provided was:
www.takamatsu-sensei.info


Anyone know about the book or the author?

stormy
16th May 2006, 23:24
Anyone know about the book or the author?

Ettig originally asked Hatsumi sensei if it was ok to write this book, he was told no, he went ahead anyway, maybe Don Roley could confirm this?.

ChrisMoon
16th May 2006, 23:34
Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?

stormy
17th May 2006, 00:27
Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?

He wouldn`t really, but i couldn`t see the point of going to Sensei, asking him if it was ok to write the book, then when told no, go ahead and write it anyway!

Eric Baluja
17th May 2006, 14:20
I've actually seen Tanaka Fumon using a posture very similar to Koto-ryu's seigan no kamae. Some of you may say, "Well, he is a student of Kaminaga Shigemi, so he must be showing Koto-ryu." This was before he became a student of Kaminaga and it wasn't Koto-ryu he was showing. I think he was demonstrating Enshin Ryu. Tanaka Fumon has his own issues (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=404849#post404849), or so I hear.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is the theory I've heard that several of the schools are actually Takamatsu's codification of skills he learned in China plus Japanese taijutsu. I think the theory is somewhat bolstered by the lack of similarities between e.g., Gyokko-ryu and most other koryu jujutsu -- "strange" kamae (no "shizen tai"), focus on pressure point strikes, style of movement, strategies, practically no small arms work...

Obviously most folks on this forum have a vested interest in quashing this theory but I'm still interested in what people have to say about it, keeping an open mind.

DrewS
17th May 2006, 17:47
Hey all, I've been a troll here at E-Budo for a few years now and finally decided to sign up. Onegaishimasu!

From what I remember hearing about Takamatsu-s.'s training when he was younger and his trip(s) to China and Mongolia have always interested me, but as far as I know, much of that comes from stories either passed on from Takamatsu-s. to Hatsumi-souke and continuing down the line. I'm not saying they're not true but it would be nice to come across some documented evidence as well.


Just out of curiousity, why would he need his permission?

He wouldn`t really, but i couldn`t see the point of going to Sensei, asking him if it was ok to write the book, then when told no, go ahead and write it anyway!

I have a small conjecture about it. I think that when wanting to author the book, going to Hatsumi-souke would be one of the best first hand sources, not to mention that Hatsumi-s. has Takamatsu's scrolls, which would also be great sources to work from. However, while I don't think it may be a real knock to Mr. Ettig's credibility to not have permission, if something about the book seems really off, then it's an issue to bring up.

I personally would like to check out the book and might actually end up ordering it.


Anybody ever notice that some of the Takamatsu-den, most especially those of questioned provenance (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure...) have taijutsu kamae that look more like they came from Chinese arts?

As Mr. Burton pointed out, and according to Manaka-sensei's article on Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu history, the Gyokko Ryu's founder derived it from Chinese Kenpo*. Likewise, Koto Ryu Koppoujutsu was either created by the same man or a student of Gyokko Ryu (I cannot remember which and my notes are at home); while the movements are different, they still seem "Chinese" in nature perhaps due to this influence. I believe Shinden Fudo Ryu, both Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu, also share this sort of founding.

But, I don't think that, as Mr. Baluja seemed to imply, that others are ignoring or quashing this. I think that the time Takamatsu-sensei spent in China perhaps enhanced a more Chinese movement, look, and feel to his Gyokko Ryu techniques (and perhaps Koto Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu can be included in this) but I think these have originally been in the densho. But, a lot of this is my own speculation looking at the facts I have before me.

George Kohler
17th May 2006, 23:04
From what I remember hearing about Takamatsu-s.'s training when he was younger and his trip(s) to China and Mongolia have always interested me, but as far as I know, much of that comes from stories either passed on from Takamatsu-s. to Hatsumi-souke and continuing down the line. I'm not saying they're not true but it would be nice to come across some documented evidence as well.

Some of Takamatsu Sensei's stories were from his autobiographies in several newspaper articles made back in the 1950's or 60's.

DrewS
18th May 2006, 02:18
Some of Takamatsu Sensei's stories were from his autobiographies in several newspaper articles made back in the 1950's or 60's.

Ah, I was unaware of that. Have the articles been reprinted in some of Hatsumi-sensei's books in either English or Japanese?

George Kohler
18th May 2006, 02:39
Most of the articles that I saw were in the Genbukan Newsletters (Newsletter is called Bufu) that were translated by Tanemura Sensei.

JIGOKU
18th May 2006, 23:34
Wolfgang Ettig has been around forever in the Ninpo/Bujinkan training in Germany - well he can be considered as one of the pioneers in the german speaking countries...
To many people (including myself) Ettig books he wrote in the 80ies were the same thing as to your guys SKH`s books - even Wolfgang wrote them after attending some Shadows of Iga seminars...
When the Takamatsu book was released many peopl complained - I found the book exceptionally well researched and written...I dont know if its out in English....
Well concerning the time of Takamatsu in China; anybody familiar with chinese history and chinese martial arts knows that there is NO WAY that a japanese would have been taught by a chinese teacher at that time...
Btw Aikidoka are faced by similar questions due the fact that Ueshiba spent some time in China.....

regards

Stefan Marcec

Ellis Amdur
19th May 2006, 05:10
Stefan wrote: "Well concerning the time of Takamatsu in China; anybody familiar with chinese history and chinese martial arts knows that there is NO WAY that a japanese would have been taught by a chinese teacher at that time..."

Not necessarily. Sawaii Keniichi of I-ch'uan (Taikiken) and Takeda Hiroshi of Tongbei ch'uan (Chinese students of the same tradition suggest, based on Takeda's book which was published in China in the 1930's that he was misled in some of what he was taught, due to anti-Japanese feelings).
Ueshiba? I agree - he definitely saw Chinese martial arts, and per Okumura Shigenobu, admired some of them - but there's no evidenced that he enrolled and studied with anyone.

Best

George Kohler
19th May 2006, 05:38
There was a Chinese student of Takamatsu Sensei that learned Kukishin-ryu from him. From what I understand the student was also teaching Takamatsu Sensei Chinese martial arts. His name was Ren Keimei (Sorry don't know his Chinese pronunciation of his name).

Jiaozi
29th May 2006, 23:23
Yes, like Stefan said, Wolfgang Ettig was very prominent in Germany at the height of the Ninja Boom, i.e. middle of the 80s. He wrote about 3 to 5 books. They were mostly trash, taking benefit of the hype at the time. I guess most of his readers were teenagers who dreamed about running around at night in full ninja costume. :D
I don't know about his newest book on Takamatsu.

Re Takamatsu's time in China please keep in mind that the Japanese committed numerous atrocities in the 30s, 40s there, the Nanjing massacre being the most known, of course.

kabutoki
31st May 2006, 09:37
Hi,
Wolfgangs book about Takamatsu is nothing like the old ones he wrote almost 20 years ago, when there was not much information available. The new one is very well researched and full of notes and additional historical explanations.

Karsten

Shinobi
31st May 2006, 18:37
There was a Chinese student of Takamatsu Sensei that learned Kukishin-ryu from him. From what I understand the student was also teaching Takamatsu Sensei Chinese martial arts. His name was Ren Keimei (Sorry don't know his Chinese pronunciation of his name).

He was actually Korean, related to the Manchurian Emperor at the time, so possibly from northern Korean. He taught Takamatsu-sensei Korean martial arts as is mentioned in the book "Essence of Ninjutsu" by Hatsumi-sensei. The name mentioned in the book is Kim Keimei.

Zhang Zi Long (Cho Shi Ryu) is who Takamatsu-sensei faught against for over a hour and then Zhang taught him Shaolin chuan-fa and the basic 18 forms of Shaolin (luo-han). A kung-fu practitioner told me that if one knew what province Zhang was from you could figure out exactly what style of Shaolin he knew and taught to Takamatsu. So Shandong province is where one should look.

The above is from my research so some of it could be wrong.
hope this helps,