PDA

View Full Version : Shimizu sensei video clip (youtube)



Fred27
21st May 2006, 14:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAV_amzevcc&search=shinto%20muso%20ryu

Very short clip of Shimizu Sensei.

Fred27
30th September 2006, 18:35
*shameless bump*

Sorry for the resurrection, (Hallelujah), but I had a question about this particular clip.

If I'm not mistaken, Shimizu sensei is performing the chudan kata Taisha. Is this clip a representation of the older (more koryu) way of doing it or is it actually the reversed?. And by that I mean if it is influenced by Shimizu senseis cooperation with Kendo?

Andy Watson
2nd October 2006, 11:19
It's odd because the opening title says Ushiro zue (zen) which it isn't and you are correct.

Whether kendoised or not, it's a bit of an odd one and it doesn't appear to be the completely Shimizu-ized SMR jodo or the Fukuoka style. Some parts look newer (the instantaneous monomi strike) while what the tachi does looks older (cutting only to the head). The trouble with Chudan is that it is a bit too fast to see much fine detail.

I guess that it was the jodo done by Shimizu-sensei at the time and we shouldn't really look on it as eavesdroppers and use it as the definitive example of how to do jodo (which I'm sure you weren't but some will).

Even menkyo kaiden will do odd things when someone points a camera at them!!!

Fred27
2nd October 2006, 14:46
Even menkyo kaiden will do odd things when someone points a camera at them!!!

Hehe :).

Thanks for the info friend. It certainly looks different than what I've seen in other clips and even what I've seen "live" in the dojo. I guess Jodo has evolved quite alot since that clip was shown as well. Thanks again.

Earl Hartman
3rd October 2006, 18:48
Looks like a fairly representative Taisha to me, although the sword work looks pretty kendoized, what with the big furikaburi. Still wondering how the Ushiro Zue got in there, but whatever.

What specific differences are you talking about? Specifically, what do you mean by "instantaneous monomi strike"? Do you mean you're taught to wait? How does that work?

I have heard that the Kyushu people do monomi differently, actually stepping forward with the right foot and turning the body 90 degees to the left, causing them to come inside and under the swordsman's blade so it passes behind the jo man's back and then they pivot and do the monomi strike. (Looks pretty cool, but seems kinda dangerous.) I'm pretty sure the Tokyo-den doesn't do that. At any rate, the monomi here looks just like the way I was taught.

However, while the initial entry on the kuristuke and and tai atari is not how I have been taught, I have seen that way demonstrated before.

I figure it's just another way to do it.

Fred27
3rd October 2006, 20:45
Looks like a fairly representative Taisha to me, although the sword work looks pretty kendoized, what with the big furikaburi. Still wondering how the Ushiro Zue got in there, but whatever.

What specific differences are you talking about? Specifically, what do you mean by "instantaneous monomi strike"? Do you mean you're taught to wait? How does that work?

I have heard that the Kyushu people do monomi differently, actually stepping forward with the right foot and turning the body 90 degees to the left, causing them to come inside and under the swordsman's blade so it passes behind the jo man's back and then they pivot and do the monomi strike. (Looks pretty cool, but seems kinda dangerous.) I'm pretty sure the Tokyo-den doesn't do that. At any rate, the monomi here looks just like the way I was taught.

However, while the initial entry on the kuristuke and and tai atari is not how I have been taught, I have seen that way demonstrated before.

I figure it's just another way to do it.

I'm glad it wasnt just me that noticed the small variations. That kuritsuke and tai atari is also not what I was taught. The version I know of is a very firm strike with the left hand against the face of the uchidachi..(well very near the face anyways) and then going under, catching the tsuka and then kuritsuke.

So the sword-work is more kendo eh? Thats cool. :) Looks more powerful than what I do, (if I have to judge it just by looking at it that is).

Earl Hartman
3rd October 2006, 21:08
I'm glad it wasnt just me that noticed the small variations. That kuritsuke and tai atari is also not what I was taught. The version I know of is a very firm strike with the left hand against the face of the uchidachi..(well very near the face anyways) and then going under, catching the tsuka and then kuritsuke.

That's how I have been taught as well. I'm fairly certain that the Kyushu-den does it the way that is shown in the video, but I wouldn't stake my life on it. I've only seen bits and pieces of their stuff.


So the sword-work is more kendo eh? Thats cool. :) Looks more powerful than what I do, (if I have to judge it just by looking at it that is).

The guy clearly knows how to use a sword, and his swordwork is, as you say, quite strong. My background is kendo, and I had to have my kendo habits beaten out of me. The way most kendo people do hasso is all wrong for jo, and if you watch the video closely, you will see that when the swordsman rasies his sword to strike he almost hits himself in the butt with the tip of his sword. Tht's what I mean by "kendoized". We are taught never to bring the sword that far back, since it creates an opening.

Fred27
3rd October 2006, 22:30
That's how I have been taught as well. I'm fairly certain that the Kyushu-den does it the way that is shown in the video, but I wouldn't stake my life on it. I've only seen bits and pieces of their stuff.


Well...I dont know either. I'm not 100% sure what lineage we follow in the European Jodo community to be honest.The head of the main European Jodo Community is Pascal Krieger, and he trained with Shimizu sensei in the 1960's and 70's, then with Kaminoda sensei in the 1980's from whom he learned kusarigama, and then finally Nishioka Tsuneo who presented Pascal with his Menkyo Kaiden. I dont know for sure about Nishioka sensei, but the rest of them (except Pascal) are tokyo-people as I understod it.

Regardless it does look alot more fluid than what I've seen here. Not more correct or more wrong, just fluid.



The guy clearly knows how to use a sword, and his swordwork is, as you say, quite strong. My background is kendo, and I had to have my kendo habits beaten out of me. The way most kendo people do hasso is all wrong for jo, and if you watch the video closely, you will see that when the swordsman rasies his sword to strike he almost hits himself in the butt with the tip of his sword. Tht's what I mean by "kendoized". We are taught never to bring the sword that far back, since it creates an opening.

Heh! I guess I had it easier than you then. I was a blank piece of paper when I started with SMR. :p

I did notice that Kaminoda sensei..(think it's him anyways)..dipped his sword-tip very deep, but the funny thing is I have always been under the impression that such a strike was actually more koryu rather than modern. Dont remember where I got that impression as I cant remember seeing it in the dojo. I prolly saw similar swordwork in a koryu kenjutsu-clip somewhere.

It's really thrilling (for me) to notice and examine all these details now that I can begin to apreciate the more subtle variations of movements and techniques. :)

Earl Hartman
3rd October 2006, 23:03
Regardless it does look a lot more fluid than what I've seen here. Not more correct or more wrong, just fluid.

Dude. It's Shimizu Sensei.

Dave Weider
4th October 2006, 00:34
Let's help you guys out.

The Tachi 'guy' as you call him is Kuroda Ichitaro Sensei and he was the best the ever was with both Jo and Tachi. He was the teacher of Kaminoda, Hiroii and Yoneno. Look him up and you'll understand what I mean.


rasies his sword to strike he almost hits himself in the butt with the tip of his sword. Tht's what I mean by "kendoized". We are taught never to bring the sword that far back, since it creates an opening.
Well since Kuroda Sensei was 9th Dan Kendo, 9th dan Iaido and Shimizu Sensei's preferred Uchidachi you might say he was a bit 'kenoized' but I guarantee he didn't leave many openings :)

Quite a few of your other comments are not too accurate but let's just say the video is pure SMR the way is was taught to the many students who learned at the Renbukan in the sixties and seventies.

Nishioka is er well Nishioka style.

Earl Hartman
4th October 2006, 01:22
I never said that the "tachi guy" wasn't any good. He is obviously very, very good. One glance tells you that.

All I said was that his swordwork seems to be quite influenced by kendo. This is a stylistic comment, not a comment on his skill. I have never done seitei jo, but it is my understanding that the swordwork in seitei jo is heavily kendoized. Of course, the relative openings exhibited by a poor practitoner of such a style are going to be greater than those exhibited by an expert practitioner of such a style. However, the smaller the "furikaburi", the shorter time it will take for the sword to reach the target. All I said was that his furikaburi was extremely pronounced. Theoretically, this will create an opening, however small or momentary. That is entirely different than saying "this particular uchidachi's swordwork is full of holes". As I said in my first comment, his swordwork is obviously quite strong. I am quite sure that he could run rings around any number of swordsmen who were not as good at their style as he is, even if they thought their style was more "correct".

Also, I never said that the entrance and approach on the kuritsuke and the tai atari were "wrong". All I said was 1) that's not how I was taught to do it, and 2) it looks like what I have seen done by the Kyushu-den people. This is jo demonstrated by Shimizu Sensei, after all. By definition, whatever he does is correct.

I don't understand your comments regarding Nisioka Sensei. Am I correct in assuming that you believe that he has not transmitted what he learned from Shimizu Sensei correctly? If that's the case, I suppose we should end the discussion here, since I don't intend to get into a debate about who does jo the "correct" way. There are a number of different lines of transmission, all of which are, as far as I know, quite legitimate since they all trace back to people who received menkyo kaiden from Shimizu Sensei.

In any case, I do jo the way my teacher tells me to, and I assume that you do the same. That's pretty much how it should be.

Fred27
4th October 2006, 08:16
Dude. It's Shimizu Sensei.

Captial 'S' in sensei? gotcha. Crap I did it again! :)


The Tachi 'guy' as you call him is Kuroda Ichitaro Sensei and he was the best the ever was with both Jo and Tachi.

So thats him! I've heard his name plenty times but I have not read that much about him.


Quite a few of your other comments are not too accurate

Well I wouldnt mind learning what comments were not too accurate, it's the only way to learn. :)

Dave Weider
4th October 2006, 17:10
Well I wouldn't mind learning what comments were not too accurate
I'll try a couple of clarifications then.


I have heard that the Kyushu people do Monomi differently, actually stepping forward with the right foot and turning the body 90 degees to the left
That was the way it was done by Shimizu up until a few months before he died. It was more like a S step right foot steps to the left with body turning to the left. Somewhat like the beginning move of Tachi Otoshi. You can see Matsui doing a variation of the left turn in Monomi in his videos. It's OK but the short step is easier to do.


I guess Jodo has evolved quite alot since that clip was shown as well. Thanks again.
You say that Jodo has 'evolved' since the time that Shimizu and Kuroda were teaching and training. Just because you do a Jodo that is 'different' from what you see on the video don't assume yours is an evolved version.

Earl Hartman
4th October 2006, 18:45
If that is how Shimizu Sensei did Monomi up until a few months before he died, why does he do it differently in this version of Taisha? It is the same technique. So clearly he did it both ways.

The simplest explanation is that there is more than one version of this technique, that is, they are kaewaza of each other. One line took one version as their "standard", one line took another. Perhaps these different versions are for when the jo man finds himself in a situation where one or the other would be most appropriate. Perhaps one version is, according to some, the omote and the other is the kage.To repeat, I don't believe that I ever said one version was "wrong". All I said was that that is not the version I have been taught.

Evolution is built into the koryu just as it is built into anything else. This is just one example of it. Stating that things have evolved is just saying that they are not the same as the once were. It isn't necessarily a value judgment unless one wants to make it so.

Fred27
4th October 2006, 18:49
You say that Jodo has 'evolved' since the time that Shimizu and Kuroda were teaching and training. Just because you do a Jodo that is 'different' from what you see on the video don't assume yours is an evolved version.

Fair enough. I havent seen enough video-clips and haven't learned enough about Shinto Muso-ryu to know what is koscher. :)

But this version of the Taisha, did it survive in any student of Shimizu Sensei and is ít still being taught today?

Fred27
4th October 2006, 19:03
I think I made a poor choice of words. When you say something has evolved people interpret it as something has become better and the old is something to discard. That was not my intent.

I should have said "I guess Jodo has changed quite alot since that clip was shown as well. Thanks again". Sounds more neutral than "evolved" :)

Dave Weider
4th October 2006, 21:01
I think I made a poor choice of words. When you say something has evolved people interpret it as something has become better and the old is something to discard. That was not my intent.
No problem. I agee martial arts should evolve however I think it's good we now have video and other media records to show us from where the 'evolving' began.


I should have said "I guess Jodo has changed quite alot since that clip was shown as well. Thanks again". Sounds more neutral than "evolved" :)Well it depends on who is doing the teaching. I have trained with some teachers who are exact images of what you see in the video. It was good training.

Fred27
5th October 2006, 08:51
No problem. I agee martial arts should evolve however I think it's good we now have video and other media records to show us from where the 'evolving' began.


Indeed. I would kill for clips of Shiraishi Hanjiro Sensei clips and/or Uchida Ryogoro. :)

JAnstey
9th October 2006, 07:02
Hi there

Does any one know who the Uchidachi on this clip is ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA3twanDtzU&mode=related&search=shinto%20muso%20ryu

Cheers

Jason

Fred27
9th October 2006, 11:46
Hi there

Does any one know who the Uchidachi on this clip is ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA3twanDtzU&mode=related&search=shinto%20muso%20ryu

Cheers

Jason

I got no idea..sorry. But that particular group is featured in alot of YouTube Jodo videos. Check out YouTube user "Mekugi" for more SMR clips (in case you havent already seen them). :p

Martin Doring
23rd November 2007, 22:50
But this version of the Taisha, did it survive in any student of Shimizu Sensei and is ít still being taught today?

Yes it did, i looked at the video and then was amazed at the comments, I have been taught Taisha as shown in the video.

Fred27
27th November 2007, 15:30
Yes it did, i looked at the video and then was amazed at the comments, I have been taught Taisha as shown in the video.

Hey there Martin!

Which group to train with in what I assume is Holland? :)

Martin Doring
28th November 2007, 21:55
Hey there Martin!

Which group to train with in what I assume is Holland? :)

Yes, the Netherlands, and our group has no name, no website, in fact we have nothing but the group itself.... our sensei is M.G. Gravestijn Sensei. He trained under Shimizu Sensei in the late 60's and early 70's together with Kaminoda Sensei and other well known Jodoka's
Some think he never got a jodo group off the ground but he did . Due to his disinterrest in commercial stuff the group is small, and not well known at all.
Due to health problems our sensei has a hard time teaching us now :cry:

Fred27
28th November 2007, 22:48
Yes, the Netherlands, and our group has no name, no website, in fact we have nothing but the group itself.... our sensei is M.G. Gravestijn Sensei. He trained under Shimizu Sensei in the late 60's and early 70's together with Kaminoda Sensei and other well known Jodoka's
Some think he never got a jodo group off the ground but he did . Due to his disinterrest in commercial stuff the group is small, and not well known at all.
Due to health problems our sensei has a hard time teaching us now :cry:

You are very fortunate to have a Sensei with his experience. :) Hope his health improves.

Fred27
28th November 2007, 23:14
Oh, I forgot to ask. You said you were amazed when you read the comments about the Shimizu clip. Why is that?

Martin Doring
29th November 2007, 08:59
I was amazed because I never would have guessed the kata being adjusted or changed (although the variations probably are very small). I always thought everybody who practiced SMR Jodo would do it the way Shimizu Sensei had tought it. Now reading this topic I see this is not the case and even Shimizu himself has made some changes over the years.
I guess it is foolish of me to think nothing would ever change but when you train a kata for a while after some time you start to see the logic of it and why some movements are done like they are done, and then after doing it this same way for years to see there are variations amazed me.....
now i started thinking and looking for more video material, i found the rest of the film this clip was taken from and another too (omote and chudan) and I found that my Sensei was tought both waza like they are done in the movies. He probably left Japan before any changes were done. I found a film where Kaminoda Sensei is doing chudan, and see there are minor variations, bigger variations I see in a film about Pascal Krieger.


changes, right or wrong? I don't know, I think it gives me something to think about and to learn from.....

Fred27
29th November 2007, 13:34
I'm getting a deja vu reading your post ;). I thought I would add some comments on it.

A ryu is something that "flows [from the past]", like a river. If a river stops moving it will become stagnant. Each student who learns SMR, or any other koryu for that matter, and recieves his Full License (Menkyo) will without a doubt pass on his own interpretation to his students, even if his teachings are as perfect a copy of his Masters teachings as can be. For knowledge cannot stand still or it will become stagnant too.

There will always be "changes" to a MA-system though, radical or subtle. It is unavoidable for we are all individuals and we all add our own "touch" to what we are taught. We can never copy a MA-system the same way a xerox-machine copies a piece of paper, but we can assimilate
the knowledge and skills. Even then it will become something that is different from the previous generation.

If you want to have a concrete example of how different groups teach differently then we can use the European Jodo Federation as an example. Pascal Krieger of the EJF was taught SMR-Jodo by Shimizu Sensei in the late 60's and throughout the 70's until the latters death, afterwhich he recieved some teachings from Kaminoda Sensei.
Pascal Sensei was taught SMR-Jodo in the "style" that Shimizu used at the time which is not too different than what is shown in this clip. Pascal Sensei did not become a full-time Kaminoda student after Shimizus death, however, and he didn't tie himself to any of the other Menkyo Kaidens at the time.

In the mid 1990's Pascal Sensei met up with a certain Nishioka Tsuneo, a japanese SMR-Jodo Menkyo, and became his student. Nishioka Sensei started training SMR-Jodo in Tokyo with Shimizu Sensei at around 1940 and got his "core" training in the 40's. Nishioka Sensei has stated that he wants to pass on the SMR-Jodo that he was taught in this period. He started teaching Pascal Sensei in this "style" of Jodo and would eventually award Pascal Sensei a Menkyo Kaiden in 1998.

So today the EJF is more alike to what SHimizu Sensei taught in the 1940's than in his later period. Kaminoda Sensei teaches the style that SHimizu Sensei had in the 60's and 70's which is more akin to the above video-clip.

So there you have it. :) Sorry for the long post and I hope I made sense.

Oh, if you want some more info on SMR you could check out the "History of Shinto Muso-ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shint%C5%8D_Mus%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB)" article on Wiki. Be warned that anything written on Wiki should not be taken as official sources, though it will give a fair overall picture.

Martin Doring
6th December 2007, 22:00
yup you made sense, and no the post issent to long ;)

i see there is a lot to learn and to discover for me

Fred27
7th December 2007, 11:59
I have heard that the Kyushu people do monomi differently, actually stepping forward with the right foot and turning the body 90 degees to the left, causing them to come inside and under the swordsman's blade so it passes behind the jo man's back and then they pivot and do the monomi strike. (Looks pretty cool, but seems kinda dangerous.) I'm pretty sure the Tokyo-den doesn't do that. At any rate, the monomi here looks just like the way I was taught.

This is true, although I didnt know that when you first posted. There is a video-series called "Nihon Kobudo" which features many martial arts including Jodo. In the SMR-Jodo video they demonstrate Omote, chudan and Okuden. Otofuji and Namidome Sensei demonstrate Omote and they did monomi the way you described it above. Our group does it the "tokyo-way". Here is a kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vrbTScmjk) from the same video-series (though not monomi).

Ron Tisdale
7th December 2007, 15:43
Wow.

Maybe I need to start studying jodo. There is a group in Philly now.

Best,
Ron

Ken-Hawaii
8th December 2007, 09:01
Good idea, Ron. My wife & I started training in MSR Jodo under Quintin Chambers-Sensei about a year ago, & it has helped our MJER waza immensely, as well as being a whole lot of fun. :D :D

Fred27
10th December 2007, 12:05
To get in tone with the original topic, here is a clip of Shimizu Takaji and Kuroda Ichitaro (cut from the same original clip) doing Ran ai with kodachi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5PoK9BArWw

Lance Gatling
12th December 2007, 14:21
........

Regardless it does look alot more fluid than what I've seen here. Not more correct or more wrong, just fluid.
.............

It is indeed so much more fluid, and led me to a recent conversation with a senior jodo student, who is also a senior kendoka.

I asked him why, at least in the case of the Zenkenren seitei gata practice, at least in my experience (all in Tokyo), everything seems disjointed, jerky - not fluid. In other martial arts I've studied, everyone starts fairly jerky kata series. Learning step by step, stringing the pieces together, then working to smooth out the steps and make them more fluid, flowing in near continuous movement, except for the intentional pauses.

But that seems to be ignored, or perhaps intentionally absent in most of the practice I see, even in very advanced jodoka.

His comment was that after Shimizu sensei there was a senior police jodo instructor who wanted to slow down the kata for beginners, focus on the finer points of each step of the kata ('move your right hand about 1.5cm down...' yah yah) to ensure the steps are correct. So he got the entire ZKR jodobu to practice that way.

Then he died before he could tell them it was OK to speed back up once they learned the individual steps. :eek: And no one has figured it out since.

Anyone else ever hear such a thing? Does normal practice seem jerky, disjointed to anyone else?

Cheers,

Lg

Dick Mineo
13th December 2007, 01:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zKtuH0Ymng

Please allow me to correct myself a bit here with the last comment I made.
I have been talking about sparring not MMA type competition of life and death situations.
Still I believe that - one that has studied (in depth) kata, its bunkai and sparring has a great advantage over a street brawler with no training, but the mind set of a brawler can not be underestimated or taken lightly.

As Mr Morris discusses - being in the zone - with kata as compared to being in emergency zone, there is a difference.
However - If one has practiced getting into the zone with kata and manages to find that zone while sparring....it is likely that he will be more able to get there if a real situation arises than one that has not practiced.

What I am trying to say is - with me - I have been able to get into that zone while sparring. It was not something that happened every time I wanted it to but knowing the feeling and sparring with partners that I had sparred many hours with.....it was not unusual. Also I noticed that when in larger classes and put up against a stranger that was obviously larger, more flexable and even more conditioned than myself.....I found I did go into a semi-emergency mode and did find that zone. It almost always gave me the advantage I needed.
Kata and sparring (light contact) is all I have done, so my experience with someone actually trying to knock my head off has never put me in a completely emergency zone, I can not speak from experience there.
So - Now I am just hoping that my years of sparring will help, if the situation does get to that point.