Weird question..maybe not.

[BigJon]

Quite a while ago, I trained in Matsubayashi ryu..as I understand it..the parent arts are considered: Naha-te, Shuri-te, and Tomari-te..(Please correct me if I am wrong.) My question is..do any of these "parent arts" exist on their own anymore.?

Sorry if I misspelled anything..its been a while since I trained Shorin ryu.
Thank you for your help..

[Prince Loeffler]

Quite a while ago, I trained in Matsubayashi ryu..as I understand it..the parent arts are considered: Naha-te, Shuri-te, and Tomari-te..(Please correct me if I am wrong.) My question is..do any of these "parent arts" exist on their own anymore.?

Sorry if I misspelled anything..its been a while since I trained Shorin ryu.
Thank you for your help..

Its an interesting questions Jon. Due to the evolvement of this "parent arts" I think that thier existence lies thru Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu..etc However, as a specific art in itself, that I am not sure. I'll try to read some books when I get home.

Here's a link that might hold you up for a while.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32087&page=1&pp=15

[BigJon]

Thank you. Actually thats the post that peaked my interest..haven't read all of it yet. I have wondered about this for a while. I was curious if the relationship is similiar to Tae Kyon/TKD.. with the exception, I know Tae Kyon exists on its own..

Thanks again.

[Prince Loeffler]

Thank you. Actually thats the post that peaked my interest..haven't read all of it yet. I have wondered about this for a while. I was curious if the relationship is similiar to Tae Kyon/TKD.. with the exception, I know Tae Kyon exists on its own..

Thanks again.

I believed Taekyon has little or close to none for the modern day Tae Kwon Do. Despite all the innacurate history of this Korean art. The majority believed that Choi's TKD was influenced by the art he studied during the Japanese ocuupation of Korea. Then again its been a while since I looked into this and I could be wrong.

[BigJon]

Let me know if you find something interesting...Ill keep reading in the meantime..

[Rob Alvelais]

Taekyon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3nmjKvOADo&search=Sword%20Swordsman%20Mind%20Body%20Kickass%20Moves%20Chris%20Crudelli%20Master%20Tetsuzan%20Se nsei%20Kuroda%20Dynasty%20Martial%20Arts)


Prince,

What's the Naha influence in Matsubayashi Ryu? I wouldn't think that there's much, outside of Fyukyukata ni. Everything else in the syllabus looks like Kyan's karate, outside of the Pinans.

Also, Prince, would you happen to know the lineage of the Wanshu kata in Nagamine's book?

Rob

[BigJon]

I saw that video yesterday, I wish it was edited without the host..

[cxt]

Jon G.

Nahe-te, Shuri-te, and Tomari-te are pretty much just general "catch-all" or "umbrella" terms for a number of styles that share some common ground and were practiced in specific areas of Okinawa.

There was a good bit of "overlap" esp in the Shuri/Tomari styles.

As I see it the use of the term "naha-te" for example is just a generic word for a general type of karate.

Not a specific "style" in and of itself.

Don't know if that helps much--sorry.

But any number of specific "styles" that were in exsistance then are still around today.

[Prince Loeffler]

Taekyon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3nmjKvOADo&search=Sword%20Swordsman%20Mind%20Body%20Kickass%20Moves%20Chris%20Crudelli%20Master%20Tetsuzan%20Se nsei%20Kuroda%20Dynasty%20Martial%20Arts)


Prince,

What's the Naha influence in Matsubayashi Ryu? I wouldn't think that there's much, outside of Fyukyukata ni. Everything else in the syllabus looks like Kyan's karate, outside of the Pinans.

Also, Prince, would you happen to know the lineage of the Wanshu kata in Nagamine's book?

Rob


Hi Mr. Alvelais. According to the book, this kata was brought into Okinawa in 1863, then reformed and DEVELOPED in Tomari.

As for Naha's influenced in Matsubayasahi Ryu, I think other than the fact that Matsubayashi Ryu was berthed in Naha and the creator of Fukyugata Ni ( Gekisai Ni in Goju Ryu) was Chojun Miyagi . There is really not much to it. However, This is a great questions and let me try to get back with a more accurate answer.

[Nyuck3X]

There was a good bit of "overlap" esp in the Shuri/Tomari styles.

But you can tell the difference by the use of the shiko-dachi.
Kobayashi (shuri) does not use as much as the other two
Kyan inspired Shorin-ryu. We tend to use kiba-dachi instead.
Off hand, I can only think of shiko-dachi in the two Passai.

I think the answer to the original question is, the styles
exisit in the katas that were preserved. If you study the kata
(styles were originally based on the kata you knew) you will
find the style.

Just my guess.

Peace.

[BigJon]

Wow! thanks for the info guys..I was under the impression that Naha-te, etc. were specific transmissions, or schools. Keeps getting more interesting..I love reading about the China/Okinawa martial connections..Its very fascinating to me!

[Rob Alvelais]

But you can tell the difference by the use of the shiko-dachi.
Kobayashi (shuri) does not use as much as the other two
Kyan inspired Shorin-ryu. We tend to use kiba-dachi instead.
Off hand, I can only think of shiko-dachi in the two Passai.


Hi Ray,

I seem to recall the shorinkan group using Shiko Dachi quite a lot. Isn't it used in the Pinans, Kushanku, Chinto and Gojushiho?

Rob

[Rob Alvelais]

Hi Mr. Alvelais. According to the book, this kata was brought into Okinawa in 1863, then reformed and DEVELOPED in Tomari.

Right, but where did Nagamine sensei pick it up? From Arakaki or elsewhere?


Rob

[Prince Loeffler]

Right, but where did Nagamine sensei pick it up? From Arakaki or elsewhere?


Rob

On top of my head:

Takahara learned Wanshu techniques and taught them to Sakugawa from 1750 to 1756.

According to my site which my Webmaster forgot to put the source. Its either from Kyan or Itosu. Let me finalized this when I get home tonight Mr. Alvelais. I will try to get this info as much as I can

[Rob Alvelais]

On top of my head:

Takahara learned Wanshu techniques and taught them to Sakugawa from 1750 to 1756.

According to my site which my Webmaster forgot to put the source. Its either from Kyan or Itosu. Let me finalized this when I get home tonight Mr. Alvelais. I will try to get this info as much as I can

Thanks, Mr. Loeffler,

Shito as you know, has a wanshu that IMO is not of the same lineage as the Wanshu in Nagamine sensei's book. According to what we're told in Shito Ryu, that kata comes from Itosu sensei. The one in Nagamine sensei's book looks to me to be more similar to Shotokan's enpi than the wanshu that we do in Shito.

Rob

[Nyuck3X]

I seem to recall the shorinkan group using Shiko Dachi quite a lot. Isn't it used in the Pinans, Kushanku, Chinto and Gojushiho?

My lineage, Miyahira, Gonzalez, shiko-dachi occurs briefly in Kusanku dai and
as you stated, Chinto and Gojushiho (slipped my mind, senior moment).
Pinans are all kiba-dachi. I do not know if there was a change there or
not. Can not remember if Shorinkan guys were any different. It has
been a while since I have played with them. Nakazato studied with
another teacher before he met Chibana. With the exception of
a short period with Motobu, Miyahira pretty much was with
Chibana for most of his life.

Also, Gonzalez split off in the late seventies so things that have changed
in the Shido Kan since then, did not make it to me. :rolleyes:

Peace.

[Prince Loeffler]

Thanks, Mr. Loeffler,

Shito as you know, has a wanshu that IMO is not of the same lineage as the Wanshu in Nagamine sensei's book. According to what we're told in Shito Ryu, that kata comes from Itosu sensei. The one in Nagamine sensei's book looks to me to be more similar to Shotokan's enpi than the wanshu that we do in Shito.

Rob


I just realized something here Mr. Alvelais. Since Wanshu is different from the other Katas in Matsubayashi Ryu's syllabus. For instant the "yoi" position is one hand forms a fist and the other covers it. Is this similar to Shito Ryu ?

Based on what you said that the Wanshu in Shito Ryu derived from Itosu's Wanshu. Perhaps there is a probability that Nagamine Sensei may have his Wanshu's influnced directly from Kyan.

Now Kyan is another story itself. Kyan was known to change and Modify the Kata that he learned from other masters. Kyan was sort rebellious in a sense. Perhaps, had Kyan decideds not the modify Wanshu, Would there be a chance perhaps that Kyan's Wanshu might be similar to Itosu's Wanshu ?

[robertmrivers]

When the first OKinawan karate "Kai" were being formed to unite the main instructors in the early 1900's, a set of Seitei kata were created where each "Style Head" contributed a kata to the set (Similar to the way the ZNIR, Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei had their seitei kata created) to unite the arts of the island. The kata contributed by Miyagi Sensei were Gekki sai Ichi and ni. In the seitei set, they were called Fukyukata ichi and ni. Some styles other that Goju still do these kata to this day.

Best

Rob Rivers