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View Full Version : Kimura on Helio Gracie - The Plot Thickens



Jeff Cook
25th May 2006, 16:47
Apparently M. Kimura did not see the famous fight with Helio the way the Gracies remember it. From "My Judo," by Masahiko Kimura:

'After I returned from Hawaii, I went to Brazil by the invitation of Sao Paulo Shinbun (Note: local Japanese newspaper company in Sao Paulo). Sao Paulo Shinbun, which was in a slump, came up with an idea of doing pro wrestling to revive their business. The period of contract was 4 months. The participants were I, Yamaguchi, and Kato 5th dan. This enterprise was a big success. Wherever we went, the arena was super-packed. This made Pres. Mizuno of Sao Paulo Shinbun very happy. When we asked for a pay raise, he tripled our original pay on the spot. In addition to pro wrestling, we gave judo instruction wherever we went.

One day, Helio Gracie, judo 6th dan, issued a challenge to us. The rule of the bout was different from that of judo or pro wrestling. The winner was decided by submission only. No matter how cleanly a throw is executed or how long Osaekomi lasts, it does not count. He issued a challenge to Kato 5th dan first. The gong rang. Kato was in good condition, and threw Helio a number of times. However, past 15 minute mark, I started to see frustration in Kato=s face. The throws had no damage on Helio since the mat was soft. At 30 min mark, it was evident that Kato was tired. "What's the matter, Kato, go to Newaza, don't stand up!" Japanese audience yelled. Kato then threw helio down by O-soto-gari, mounted on Helio, and started Juji-jime. The audience roared with excitement. But, as I watched carefully, Helio was also applying a choke from below. They were trying to choke out each other. This lasted about 3 or 4 minutes. Kato=s face started to turn pale. I shouted, "Stop!" to the referee, and jumped into the ring. When helio released his hands, Kato collapsed onto the mat, face first. 2 days after this bout, I saw Helio's students marching down a city street carrying a coffin. They were shouting, "Dead Japanese judoka Kato is in this coffin. He got killed by Helio. We ask your support for Judo Master Helio Gracie!"

After this bout, the popularity of our pro wrestling show declined rapidly. The Japanese whom we encountered on the street murmured, "They must be phonies, losing in such a pathetic manner." Helio issued another challenge, this time to Yamaguchi. Pres. Mizuno of Sao Paulo Newspaper also begged, "Mr. Yamaguchi, please kill Helio, this time." But Yamaguchi seemed reluctant, and asked "Let me think for one night." If he fought a judo match under the Japanese rule, Yamaguchi is superior to Helio both in Tachi-waza and Newaza. But under the Brazilian rule, if Helio got pinned on the ground, all he has to do is to stay calm and be cautious not to get caught in a choke or joint lock, and remain still till the time runs out. Helio could fight to a draw in this way. If he used this tactics, it would be difficult for Yamaguchi to make Helio surrender. I then said to Yamaguchi, "Do not bother to come up with a plan to make Helio submit. I will accept the challenge." Until the day of the bout, we continued pro wrestling shows every other day. 3 days before the bout, local newspaper had a big headline, saying "Kimura is not a Japanese. He seems to be a Cambodian. Helio cannot fight a fake Japanese." I was surprised to see it. I rushed to the Embassy of Japan with my passport, and got a proof that I am a Japanese.

20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain.'

Jeff Cook

MikeWilliams
25th May 2006, 17:17
Thanks for posting - I hadn't read that before!

It gives a very interesting insight into the culture-clash between the Japanese and Brasilians.

hectokan
25th May 2006, 17:25
Jeff,

Great article,I think they both were great fighters in their own right.kimura was head and shoulders ahead of anybody else but helio must have been great also to last 13 minutes with the greatest.


Just by todays standards anybody that really understands grappling would know how difficult it is to go a simple 10 min grappling superfight match against a top elite player with out getting caught.


Judo + Jiujitsu = awesome

Chris McLean
25th May 2006, 20:57
That was a nice find Jeff thanks

Jeff Cook
26th May 2006, 00:05
It is an interesting read; however, I do have some questions about it. One of my questions is: how the hell do you break the forearm bones while doing udegarami? It is a shoulder crank. This makes me question the authenticity of the translation.

Jeff Cook

lemalin66
26th May 2006, 00:20
Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.

Martin Durette

MikeWilliams
26th May 2006, 09:18
Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.


Leaving aside the fact that Helio & Kimura weren't fighting under judo rules, ude garami most certainly is a shoulder crank. Next to heel hooks, it seems to cause more injuries than any other technique I know. Those injuries are always to the shoulder - except, apparently, in the case of Helio Gracie (so Jeff, you raise a good point).

Somehow the shoulder pressure has been overlooked or ignored by the judo rule-makers.

Jeff Cook
26th May 2006, 12:50
Ude garami is not a shoulder crank. Shoulder cranks are forbiden in judo.

Martin Durette

Martin, maybe you have never had ude garami done to you. Have someone do it to you and you will immediately see what Mike and I are talking about. It is a HUGELY overlooked myth in judo.

If you extend the arm and apply pressure, it becomes an elbow lock, but it is NOT classical ude garami when done in that position.

Jeff Cook

hectokan
26th May 2006, 13:11
It is an interesting read; however, I do have some questions about it. One of my questions is: how the hell do you break the forearm bones while doing udegarami? It is a shoulder crank. This makes me question the authenticity of the translation.

Jeff Cook

The only thing that comes to mind (in relationship to forearm bones)is the possibility getting into the ude-garami by applying pressure to the back of the hand inorder to pry the lock open.Instead of grabbing the wrist for the typical kimura lock,one grabs the back of the hand,this puts enormous amounts of pressure on the wrist causing uke to let go.

This inreturn can cause pain to run alonngside the forearm bones.I realize I might be stretching it here a little but that is the only thing that comes to mind.

amadus
26th May 2006, 14:29
So, ok udegarami...i've tested this one out, and figured out that if done in a certain manner, the pressure does go to the elbow. Imagine Uke lying on his back--Tori mounted or to the side of uke. Uke's arm is bent in an "L" shape next to his head. Imagine uke's hand is in a fist--this helps the illustration. If uke's fist is pointed up--his palm facing the sky--the pressure does seem to go directly to the shoulder. If, however, you turn uke's hand so that the pinky side of his fist is pointed up and apply ude garami--the pressure hits the elbow first, and it sets in the pressure much more quickly than in the other manner.
This also works when the arm is bent in an "L" shape but next to the body (uke is still on his back)--turn the fist so that the pinky side is up. This is the actual technique that Kimura used, but i believe he did it while Gracie was inside his guard...so in this case (from the bottom) the pinky side is pointed down.

Jeff Cook
26th May 2006, 16:51
Maybe, Joel, but I'm still not feeling it. I've done the lock, and had it done on me, from every angle and joint rotation possible. Maybe somebody who is extremely inflexible might feel it that way, perhaps? Or maybe I and the dozens of others I have rolled with are extremely flexible? I don't know, but I won't discount what you are saying. We may just have to remain in disagreement on this one.

Jeff Cook

MikeWilliams
26th May 2006, 17:22
Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken.

Could it be that the sound that "echoed through the stadium" was cartilage/ligaments popping, rather than bone breaking? The sound is equally nasty, and is much more likely.

The only locks that I know of that put potential breaking pressure on the bones are bicep or calf-crushes. In all other cases, the ligaments should let go first - although there is always the possiblity that the lock was on at a funny angle or something weird happened (it's impossible to tell from the footage available).

amadus
26th May 2006, 17:25
Well, I do think the majority of the time it does attack the shoulder joint, but i think you can attack both the joints and the elbow will go first because it's a weaker joint. I can always be wrong. In any case, the method that I illustrated is never the one shown in the judo text books, so I would assume that if one applied a "textbook" ude garami, then most definitely, the shoulder is the joint in trouble. So, for the most part we agree.

George Kohler
26th May 2006, 17:33
Speaking of Kimura, there is a part 1 article on him in the new Black Belt magazine. By the same person who did the article on Donn Draeger for the last one.

Part 2 will be on the Kimura vs Helio Gracie fight.

Starkjudo
26th May 2006, 17:37
I've found that the bigger frame of the uke, the more shoulder is affected. On smaller frame people, you get more reaction at the elbow and insertion point (if i'm using the correct term) of the forearm. I can see vaguely how it would be possible to break the forearm bones - but I don't have an uke i'd like to test it on.

powerof0ne
26th May 2006, 23:02
I've never had it do anything to my forearm neither, just to my shoulder or sometimes to my elbow.

lemalin66
26th May 2006, 23:58
Well Jeff in my 35 years of Judo I've had many ude garami performed on that poor body of mine. When it's well done the elbow pays the price. I had my left elbow dislocated and broken by an arm bar and believe me it is extremely painful. I had to be operated twice to get fixed.

I do understand that sometimes the effect of ude garami goes to the shoulder however it's not where it's supposed to be.

Martin Durette.

Simon Ford-Powell
27th May 2006, 00:18
agreed, crudely done with an upward lever, it catches the shoulder, but compacted in and up it gets the elbow.

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 13:22
Martin, I hope you and others know I am not challenging anyone's knowledge here. I am just trying to get to the bottom of the whole udegarami debate.

Simple leverage: the straighter the arm is, the more pressure is brought to bear on the elbow joint. However, in my opinion if the arm is straight we are NOT doing udegarami, or we are doing it SO POORLY that the effect achieved is not the one the classical entanglement was designed for.

Classical, properly-executed udegarami has the upper arm ninety degrees to the torso, and the lower forearm ninety degrees to the upper arm. Properly done, the lower arm is used as a lever to rotate the upper arm along its axis, causing the head of the humerus to rotate within the shoulder joint. Again, this is achieved by using the forearm as a lever only, to attack the proximal end of the humerus, NOT the forearm - the forearm is being used as a tool only.

However, when you stretch the arm out past ninety degress, and modify the entanglement past the point of "udegarami" recognition, you can certainly bring great pressure to bear on the elbow joint. This "judo modification" of the classical arm entanglement makes for a less efficient use of leverage, as it is much easier to attack the shoulder joint with this configuration, rather than the elbow. It is also much easier to defend the judo modification than the classical configuration.

Now, assuming this happend during the Kimura/Gracie fight, it is still highly unlikely that the radius and ulna would be fractured. Dislocated at the elbow joint, yes. Fractured, probably not.

I did see a freakish video lately of a grappling competition in Europe where a humerus was fractured due to udegarami, but it has been assumed that occured because the "victim" had well-developed shoulder muscles that protected his shoulder joint, and when the BJJ guy yanked on his arm, the force had to go somewhere - but it fractured the humerus, NOT the radius or ulna.

Jeff Cook

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 13:29
agreed, crudely done with an upward lever, it catches the shoulder, but compacted in and up it gets the elbow.

Simon,

I think it is interesting that you chose the words "crudely done." I would like to hear why you think the shoulder crank version is crude, compared to the judo modification to attack the elbow.

Again, not trying to start an emotional argument. I am fascinated with our difference in viewpoints. I have a fairly extensive experience in classical jujitsu, judo, and BJJ, but more importantly I have rolled with some of the best grapplers in judo and BJJ on this planet, and my experience with this is different. In fact, when I started judo at the University of Florida I was taught the way to execute udegarami as I describe above.

I have not seen the "judo modification" of udegarami in my classical jujitsu studies (doesn't mean it does not exist, though). I speculate that some ingenious judoka modified a shoulder attack to crudely attack the elbow joint to remain in compliance with judo competition rules.

Thoughts? Perhaps we should start a new thread?

Jeff Cook

lemalin66
27th May 2006, 14:13
Hello Jeff,

Quite frankly I realize that ude garami can be done differently and from different position. I just wanted to point out that in judo the goal was to put the pressure on the elbow. It could be otherwise for BJJ or classical ju-jitsu but who am I to argue since I never praticed them. Regarding what happened during the kimura-gracie fight you guess is as good as mine.

Don't worry Jeff, I don't feel offended by your point of view and be assured that I respect it.

Martin Durette

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 14:15
Thanks for the reassurance Martin; I respect yours too. I just try to be extra careful, as discussions like this tend to degenerate rather quickly on the internet.

Jeff Cook

hydestewart
27th May 2006, 14:30
Jeff,

Although ude garami can be used to attack the shoulder this is not allowed in judo contest as it constitutes a shoulder lock. There are however two ways I know to guarantee it works as an elbow lock. The frist is the one you mention of alowing uke's arm to straighten so the elbow is at 180 degrees and apply the lock by overextending the elbow.

The second is as follows:
1 Imagine uke is on his back and you approach from his left side.
2 Lie across his chest, hold his right wrist in your right hand, your palm against the pulse side of his wrist
3 Your left arm goes under his upper right arm and you grasp your own right wrist with your left hand. If you were to apply the lock now and his arm was bent at 90 degrees the effect would be largely on the shoulder so:
4 Draw his right hand as close as possible to his right shoulder
5 Draw his right elbow as close as possible to his right hip keeping his arm flat on the mat.
6 try to get his forearm almost parallel with his upper arm
7 Turn your right hand down, this rotates his forearm and causes the radius and ulna to partially cross over each other and increases the tension on the tendons and ligaments of the elbow.
8 Finally start to raise the elbow and you will have an ude garami which is far more of an elbow lock than a shoulder lock.

This is how I was taught ude garami as an elbow lock some thirty years ago. The problem is that in the heat of the moment it is easy to rush the stages and apply a shoulder lock. Although not allowed in judo contests this would be fine under different rules. The Kimura / Gracie match was not under judo rules of course.

Stewart Hyde

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 14:44
Stewart, thanks. With all due respect, though, that is a whole lot of pushing, prying, and wrestling to try to milk a submission out of a very inefficient method.

Some problems with it: the closer you push his hand towards his shoulder, the easier it is for him to extend his arm *only a few inches* towards his own head, making ANY lock impossible at that point, including the shoulder lock (extending the arm straight up, or putting the hand above the head, totally defeats locking the shoulder or arm).

Another problem: too many things have to happen to get in the position you describe. I am now speaking from a BJJ perspective. A white belt with very little training in BJJ may have enough matt savvy to defeat this arm position.

I should stop now; your method of course works, because people make it work. I do think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to pull off on anyone with only moderate newaza skill (again, speaking from a BJJ perspective - BJJ training methodology IS beginning to permeate the judo world).

Interestingly, when I competed in the early '80's, udegarami as I describe WAS allowed. I saw submissions due to shoulder-joint pressure, NOT elbow pressure. When a competitor would complain, the ref would usually say "you tapped to a properly-executed udegarami." End of discussion.

Thanks for describing it in detail. I will play around with it and see if I can change my mind concerning the efficiency of the technique.

Jeff Cook

hydestewart
27th May 2006, 15:26
Jeff,

When this techniques is applied it is not done in eight stages that was just an attempt to paint a word picture. It also doesn't rely on having uke lie there passively, naturally he will resist or try to escape, the skill lies in countering his counters if you like and applying the technique anyway or abandoning the technique and doing something else!

I know it works in randori or contest the way I describe and I have been doing judo for a long time. May be it could work that way for you too. I also know that the shoulder version is easier to make work so if you are allowed to do that where you train you could stick to that.

Stewart Hyde

PS You are right that a defence against ude garami is to staighten the attacked arm, I try to prevent this by using both arms against his one and if necessary reinforcing with the use of my head (physically and metaphorically)

Stewart Hyde

hectokan
27th May 2006, 15:56
http://bjj.org/susumu/pride8/images/p8sa06.jpg

taken67
27th May 2006, 16:17
http://bjj.org/susumu/pride8/images/p8sa06.jpg
Don't know, but it's funny Sakuraba is using the same technique to beat a Gracie.

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 17:06
Actually, he did not "beat" him with that lock. The referee called the match in spite of rules against him doing so - seconds before the end of the fight. Gracie did not tap, and his joint was not damaged, therefore the lock was ineffective.

The referee was biased and broke the rules to give the win to Sak. Too bad, as Sak in my opinion had beat him fairly.

Jeff Cook

Simon Ford-Powell
27th May 2006, 21:07
Simon,

I think it is interesting that you chose the words "crudely done." I would like to hear why you think the shoulder crank version is crude, compared to the judo modification to attack the elbow.

Again, not trying to start an emotional argument. I am fascinated with our difference in viewpoints. I have a fairly extensive experience in classical jujitsu, judo, and BJJ, but more importantly I have rolled with some of the best grapplers in judo and BJJ on this planet, and my experience with this is different. In fact, when I started judo at the University of Florida I was taught the way to execute udegarami as I describe above.

I have not seen the "judo modification" of udegarami in my classical jujitsu studies (doesn't mean it does not exist, though). I speculate that some ingenious judoka modified a shoulder attack to crudely attack the elbow joint to remain in compliance with judo competition rules.

Thoughts? Perhaps we should start a new thread?

Jeff Cook
Jeff, I am a Judoka and a Jiu jitsuka also. I was talking purely from the perspective of Judo competition rules. "crudely" was probably the wrong word to use since the shoulder crank is clearly effective, but for a Judoka will lead to penalties, so in that sense a deliberate attempt to execute the lock in that way would be "crude". It can be done effectively as an elbow lock though and I wouldn't say it was less effective in any way, just different

taken67
27th May 2006, 21:13
http://bjj.org/susumu/pride8/images/p8sa06.jpg
Is that Renzo?

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 23:12
Is that Renzo?

Negative. It is Royler in Pride 8. The contract specifically forbid referee stoppage.

Sak dislocated Renzo's elbow in Pride 10.

Jeff Cook

Jeff Cook
27th May 2006, 23:15
Jeff, I am a Judoka and a Jiu jitsuka also. I was talking purely from the perspective of Judo competition rules. "crudely" was probably the wrong word to use since the shoulder crank is clearly effective, but for a Judoka will lead to penalties, so in that sense a deliberate attempt to execute the lock in that way would be "crude". It can be done effectively as an elbow lock though and I wouldn't say it was less effective in any way, just different

Simon, thanks. I will work the lock the way y'all describe, and see if I can get it through my thick skull how to use it efficiently AND effectively. ;)

Jeff Cook

MarkF
28th May 2006, 11:23
Well, it may lead to penalties if you are clearly working the shoulder and not the elbow, but there are ways of doing both. I've never stopped a match with a permitted ude garami that also works the shoulder nor would most of my contemporaries or seniors. I have rarely seen an immediately injury to the shoulder unless it is being cranked and the elbow is not. To see clearly what is a proper ude garami in judo, take a look at the kosen videos posted by Jonesy.


Mark

Mateo
29th May 2006, 03:39
http://www.judoclub.ca/videoclips.html

Why talk about what Kimura might have been doing when we can watch what he did? :)

Unfortunately the clip is choppy and the finish is not clearly shown though.

We see him set up what became the classic BJJ way of performing the 'Kimura' from a half kneeling position a couple of times and then we have that still photo at the end of the second clip which appears to be the submission with Kimura reaching around in what appears to be an extra effort to put more torque on the technique. But who knows? Perhaps that wasn't the submission at all.

What I do know is that seems ironic to see the "Gracie Victory" title over that picture.

MarkF
31st May 2006, 06:18
Well, Matt is correct, but the problem with that is to decide whether or not you believe this to be an actual sporting contest instead of a work. Nothing wrong in it being a work, but it should still be noted when talking about that match. Both of them were pros back then and doing their jobs well. Just in reading Jeff's original post, the description is, well, as they are both professionals and they did what they had to do to win and win "well" I would think this sometimes overlooked item should be discussed first. It is your call, but there are videos around with that match that are clean. Even Kimura-sensei says that the mats were soft.

I still believe and have nearly always believed the match was a work (in my early years in judo, I watched wednesdays night rasslin' in Los Angleles and believed the results of those, too. I loved the Japanese "jujitsu" wrestlers when they went three falls). That got old pretty quickly, but the grappling itself was very well done until the mid-sixties.

But they did their jobs well. Here we are over fifty years later, none of us were there and we are still discussing it (at least I am, even if I am the only one on the side of the work).

Mas. Kimura-Sensei was just an all out great grappler, whether or not he was making a buck doing it (or Yen).

As for the picture (which I completely skipped and did not see it until now), that is definitely a purposeful lock, more suited for wrestling, and there is no question that penalties would be imposed, probably a disqualification. If serious injury had insued, a law suit would most likely follow, given today's litigeous society. Jeff knows the rules of BJJ better than I and I am at a loss when watching no-holds barred style matches but it is a good lock, just not for the purpose of randori or shiai.


BTW: I had all ready thought about starting another thread but generally, those get one or two posts and become archived pretty quickly. If a new thread is started, it may be better in the gendai budo forum so you don't break the connection to judo, but if you can keep it within that, go ahead and do so.


It has been a great thread, however so don't look at this as a "thread-killing" post.


Mark

MarkF
31st May 2006, 06:55
BTW: As to whether or not the Helio-Kimura match was a work, doesn't a 6-dan in Kodokan Judo give anyone else the chills?


Mark

Mateo
31st May 2006, 07:24
Well, Matt is correct, but the problem with that is to decide whether or not you believe this to be an actual sporting contest instead of a work.

Wow, I had never really thought about that possibility and have not heard anyone mention it before.

Here's a link to some more on Kimura:

http://judoinfo.com/kimura/masahiko_kimura.htm

Of course Kimura was doing Pro-wrestling at the time and was involved in Brazil doing it as well. The coffin stuff was really over the top as well. I just thought that in the fighting environment that Vale Tudo grew out of that this was an early example of the legitimate challenge matches as well.

I remember seeing Maurice Smith, shortly after his heyday in the UFC, involved in an obvious work for the RINGS organization with a pro-wrestler. What is strange is that some of the RINGS fights are works while others are obviously not. (Enson Inoue says that his early fights for the organization were not works and I believe this to be true.) However not knowing for sure which is which kind of spoils them all for me!

Rickson was quite up front about the fact that he was offerred the first fight against Takada in PRIDE as a work and refused to take it under those conditions whether it was arranged to be an outcome in his favour or not.

I was always suspicious of Takada's tapping out of Coleman with a leg submission. But this would be in the area of a 'fixed' fight and not a 'work'.

MikeWilliams
31st May 2006, 10:04
I honestly doubt it was a work. Showbiz and hype, yes. Fought under special rules, yes - but a work?

There is a culture of machismo in Brazil (and especially in the Gracie family) that would strongly argue against pre-arranged outcomes of fights. Helio was busy popularising Vale Tudo at the time, and if you have ever seen Brazilian Vale Tudo, it's about as far removed from pro-wrestling as you can get. It's even a long, long way removed from early Japanese MMA (RINGS, Shooto, early Pride - all of which were not beyond a little bit of backroom staging).

Moreover, Helio walked away with a serious injury. Royce nearly did the same (under similar circumstances*) this past weekend. These guys are self-publicists for sure, but you can't deny their "never give up" fighting spirit.

The "Gracie Victorious" headline is amusing, but again shows a fairly typical family trait - that side of the family aren't known for being gracious in defeat.

(*for those of you who haven't seen Hughes v. Gracie - Hughes applied an Ude Garami that *did* attack the elbow :) )

hectokan
31st May 2006, 15:11
Quoted by Mr Williams
The "Gracie Victorious" headline is amusing, but again shows a fairly typical family trait - that side of the family aren't known for being gracious in defeat.


Actualy the headlines on that Brazilian news paper read a "Moral victory"in portuguise(sp).It was a moral victory for them simply because he(Helio)lasted a long time with kimura.Did kimura carry the match longer than he should of?I doubt it,although I hear that a lot,especially from my Judo compadres.I seriously doubt it,Kimura wanted to throw him and he did about 6 to 8 times but to finish the match he had to submit him and that took it's time.Even if he was playing with him with different pinning positions (which means a lot in Judo)getting the lock was not as easy as it seemed.

Mike I agree,Just because the match was contested with the use of soft mats does not make it a automatic work.Sugar ray leanord had his promoters lobby for a larger ring and larger gloves versus Marvin Hagler.It does not make it a automatic work,its just called stacking the playing field in your favor.

Mateo
1st June 2006, 00:01
(*for those of you who haven't seen Hughes v. Gracie - Hughes applied an Ude Garami that *did* attack the elbow :) )

Yeah, it started off as a standard ude-garami but once Royce straightened his arm I guess it became the variation known as Hantai-ude-kujiki or "reverse arm crush".

"A rose by any other name..."

http://www.sherdog.com/news/pictures.asp?n_id=4578

If you watch the footage on video you can see Royce softly tapping twice on the mat when he started to take too many of the blows and the ref was stepping in.

Amazing resistance to the armlock, though.

Jeff Cook
1st June 2006, 01:37
Matthew, thanks for coming up with the name for the reverse arm crunch; I could not remember it. That was kind of one of my points earlier; if you exceed a 90-degree angle, it is no longer an ude garami.

Regarding Royce tapping - that is absolutely laughable. One certainly should not conclude that because his hands were slapping the mat as he was being pummled that he was purposely tapping. Hell, he tapped the mat MORE than twice with his head - because Mat was pounding the crap out of his head! I strongly believe the same thing was happening with his hands. He was getting beat like a red-headed stepchild and was flailing about aimlessly, nothing more and nothing less.

During a judo shiai I participated in a lllloooonnng time ago, I had to fight a black belt (I was still a white belt). At one point I was on all fours; he was attempting a very poor collar choke from above and behind me. In frustration, he violently yanked up and down on my neck trying to set the choke. He yanked so hard he pulled my torso up, and when I came back down my hands hit the mat. He did it again, yanking me up, then slamming me down, causing both of my hands to hit the mat again. The ref stopped the match, raised his hand, and declared him the winner because I "tapped out." My competitor TOLD the ref, "No, he most certainly did NOT tap out - I slammed him down towards the mat twice, and he caught himself with his hands." The ref looked at him blankly, and my competitor and I looked at each other very puzzled. Finally, I said, "screw it, you would have beaten me anyway!", we laughed, gave each other a hug, and left that idiot's mat.

Trust me, Royce is willing to take a broken arm and a concussion/unconciousness rather than tap.

Jeff Cook

BomberH
1st June 2006, 15:49
If you watch the footage on video you can see Royce softly tapping twice on the mat when he started to take too many of the blows and the ref was stepping in.

Amazing resistance to the armlock, though.

I also noticed that tap. I'm sure the Gracies will overlook it when refering to the fight in years to come.

Jeff Cook
1st June 2006, 16:26
I can't help but think that an anti-Royce attitude is driving this tapping thing. It was recorded as a referee stoppage/TKO. Royce did not say he tapped, Big John did not say he tapped, and Matt did not say he tapped. Those three were the only three in the octagon. If one of those three says he tapped, I might take this a little more seriously. But to say that because his hands, which were flailing around due to being pummled, hit the mat for the purpose of tapping - the evidence is not conclusive.

Jeff Cook

MikeWilliams
1st June 2006, 16:43
To avoid taking this thread off-topic, I have pasted Big John McCarthy's reaction to the fight in the "Hughes v. Gracie" thread in the member's lounge. What he says really ought to be the last word.

Jeff Cook
1st June 2006, 20:51
Thanks Mike. That should end the speculation.

Jeff Cook

lemalin66
1st June 2006, 22:23
I know that i'm off topic Jeff but I must point out your courage being a white belt (a loooonnnng time ago) and having to fight a blackbelt. It has to be a mismatch that must be avoided.

Martin Durette

taken67
1st June 2006, 23:02
Actually, he did not "beat" him with that lock. The referee called the match in spite of rules against him doing so - seconds before the end of the fight. Gracie did not tap, and his joint was not damaged, therefore the lock was ineffective.

The referee was biased and broke the rules to give the win to Sak. Too bad, as Sak in my opinion had beat him fairly.

Jeff Cook

Thanks Jeff, didn't know that, I'll have to watch the fight.

Jeff Cook
2nd June 2006, 00:47
Martin, when I competed in judo the classes were based on weight only at most tournaments I went to. However, I DID see a few white belts do quite well; I saw one white belt beat a black belt in tournament. Some judo coaches should just stick to coaching.

Tommy, I never saw the fight. I did read about the circumstances, however. Supposedly the contract between the two fighters totally forbade a referee stoppage. Gracie had the option to file for a "no contest" but chose not to.

Jeff Cook

Mateo
2nd June 2006, 01:54
I also noticed that tap. I'm sure the Gracies will overlook it when refering to the fight in years to come.

I'm not anti-Royce. I didn't want to see him tap. But I saw him tap behind McCarthy's right foot while McCarthy was in the process of stopping the fight. McCarthy didn't see it because he was already in the process of stopping the fight. The fight wasn't stopped because of the tap.

You didn't see it or you interpret it differently. That's cool. But I trust my judgement of what I see and I'm comfortable with you trusting your own even if it doesn't agree with mine.

Royler has tapped, too. It isn't a big deal. It's foolish not to tap and ruin your body and training for the ensuing months. Hughes would tap.

Enson Inoue doesn't tap and he took some really career shortening beatings. (i.e. Vonchanchyn) I don't respect him more for that. I just wish that the refs had stepped in earlier for him. (His brother rushed in for him when he was taking too much punishment from Frank Shamrock.)

Jeff Cook
2nd June 2006, 16:28
Matt, of course you are right, and I apologize. I have been reading various threads on various boards, most of the posts definitely anti-Royce, very few of them reasonable and well-said like yours.

I will ask him next Friday if he tapped - if I can figure out how to phrase it without causing problems, that is. ;)

Jeff Cook

IronMan
2nd June 2006, 17:19
The problem that alot of people have with McCarthy stepping in is that they thought he did it before the tap, which he did.
It was Big Joe's judgement call, because it looked like Royce might be ko'd pretty soon anyway.

I agree with you guys, it was a smart tap, because if you're on the bottom in that situation you can take some serious and permanent damage.

Tim Mailloux
2nd June 2006, 18:53
The problem that alot of people have with McCarthy stepping in is that they thought he did it before the tap, which he did.
It was Big Joe's judgement call, because it looked like Royce might be ko'd pretty soon anyway.

I agree with you guys, it was a smart tap, because if you're on the bottom in that situation you can take some serious and permanent damage.

I watched the fight live, and have rewatched the online clip many times. I don't see any tap. I do see Joyce's hands moving a bit, but at the time his skull was bouncing off Matt Hughes fists, elbows and the floor. I also give credit for the ref stopping the fight when he did. Joyce wasn't doing anything, and wasn't even trying to protect himself. Letting the fight go longer would have only caused more damage to a fighter that already had lost. For the record, I am not a fan of Joyce Gracie, and would have loved to see him knocked out. But IMO the fight was stopped at the appropriate time.

One of the ref's main jobs is to protect the fighters, and that is what he was doing. If he didn't stop the fight we would have a whole different bunch of people conplaining that the only reason he let the fight go on in such a ones sided manor was so Highes could really hurt and embarrass Gracie.

The only thing that matters, is that Hughes won in a dominating fashion. The manor in which the fight was stopped is irrealavant.

MikeWilliams
2nd June 2006, 19:57
Joyce? LOL.

Tim Mailloux
2nd June 2006, 20:08
Joyce? LOL.

OMG, I cannot believe I did that..... I know it is Royce. My brain is on auto pilot right now, and I spelled it phonetically with out even thinking. My apologies.


I am having a really bad day today, thank good it is almost over!

MarkF
4th June 2006, 16:15
You have taken advantage of my good nature and have hijacked this thread to discuss MMA anvd UFC, so I am closing thre thread. Besides, I believe it has run its course in the judo forum, but feel free to discuss post-modern Japanese budo in the Gendai Budo forum lounge. It really is simple to get me to allow off-topic posts by discussion the outcomes of MMA by using judo terminology.


No one is at fault but me so again, pleae bring this subject...Hey, I'll just move it to Gendai Budo myself. I may be cutting off my nose to spite myself, but then It keep the thread open and alllows me to stay out of it.


Have funsies.


Mark

powerof0ne
4th June 2006, 23:25
funsies, I hope you don't mind if I use that.

MarkF
6th June 2006, 10:28
No, not really. I think that may have come out of a bottle, though.


Mark

hectokan
7th June 2006, 16:02
Can anyone speculate as to why this match was contested under grappling rules instead of vale tudo rules?

powerof0ne
9th June 2006, 05:45
When this match happened was much Vale Tudo taking place in Brasil? I know that Helio did do some vale tudo matches but were they a few years after this?

Kevin Geaslin
12th June 2006, 22:20
I came across this clip on youtube while watching some Daiwado vids, I thought about this thread and figured it might be relevant.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2wO3dHUYwQ

Mateo
13th June 2006, 03:40
Nicer clip to be sure Kevin! :)

Still we don't really see the finisher, though we see the "kimura" getting worked and then the footage is broken and we see them getting up.

We don't get to see the position from the still in the photograph we discussed earlier, but that could have been a transitional move from anywhere in the fight.