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brianlkennedy
26th May 2006, 10:32
I have noticed that in most discussions of how to grip traditional Japanese weapons (be it the bokken or the jo) it is said that on the hand gripping the butt of the weapon (i.e. the lower hand) the pinkie (smallest finger) should be kept lower than the butt of the weapon and the pinkie should be curled under the butt of the weapon. So you end up with the thumb and first three fingers griping the shaft of the jo and the butt of the jo resting against the curled up pinkie.

Why is it done that way? I realize that there are thousands of ryu and some may not do it this way but for those that do, what is the reason?

I should mention I am not trying to start an argument or show any disrespect for traditional training. But for my own training I am simply asking the question. What I noticed, and I do not fancy myself any great handler of the jo, but on first glance the pinkie on the butt seems a bit counterproductive. What I noticed is if I thrust that way, (pinkie on the butt of the jo) and hit a target (a car tire, mounted so it gives a bit when hit) it felt "not so good" for the three small joints of my pinkie.


Take care,
Brian L. Kennedy

SMJodo
26th May 2006, 16:06
Brian,

I can only speak from my own training and experience, but my grip does not have the pinkie underneath the end of the Jo - for the reason you just stated. I would imagine that any move involving a thrust (tsuke) could potentially result in a broken finger. Personally, I keep all fingers wrapped around the bottom of the jo. The shape/angle of the Jo makes it naturally sort of butt-up in the heel of your hand when you thrust. This keeps it stable without breaking your finger. Hope that helps.

Douglas Wylie
26th May 2006, 20:15
So... you are practicing without a teacher??

What discussions?? The one from the noobs with 6 months experience? You think that is some valuable info?? It aint.

But I am not going to enable you by telling you what is right. You need to find a teacher.

Kim Taylor
26th May 2006, 21:09
Could have sworn it was in Deity and the Sword but I can't see it in a casual look-through, but it's certainly on page 55 of Japanese Swordsmanship by Warner and Draeger (first ed. 1982 Weatherhill)

With a shinken you may not want to put your pinky at the butt end, that's where the knot is, and you may unwrap it creating a couple hundred dollars worth of work for a wrapper. Secondly, if you take a finger off the hilt you take 25% of the power out of the lever that is your left hand.

However, if your school says rotate the weapon (jo in SMR certainly, sword in KSR etc) in any way, it's easier to rotate it if the pinky is at or off the end.

Not all knowledge comes from the internet fellas, and this has been discussed since before 1982.

It's also always a good idea to remember that a single school may not hold all the secrets of swordsmanship... it might take exposure to 2 or even 3 to learn all there is to learn under the sun.

KimTaylor

SMJodo
26th May 2006, 23:15
Brian,

I tend to agree with Douglas and Kim. I wanted to be helpful and throw you a bone so to speak, but if you really want to find out what Jodo is all about, find a good teacher. Sometimes, it's so convenient to go to the internet for a quick answer we forget that some things are best/only learned by traditional means. I'm glad that this forum exists, because it's a great place for fellow Jodokai to exchange thoughts and information. The filp side is that we run the risk of bastardizing what we love by giving it away cheaply and without thought or context. Practice the right way. Good luck in your pursuit.

brianlkennedy
26th May 2006, 23:25
Thanks much for the civil and helpful replies.

take care,
Brian L. Kennedy

Douglas Wylie
27th May 2006, 17:52
Here is a picture of Kuroda sensei's grip on the bokuto. He is practicing with Shimizu sensei in this picture.

mdamignani
29th May 2006, 19:30
one reason for the pinky being there is to make sure your hand doesn't slide up the weapon when thrusting another is there is no power in the pinky, the two middle fingers are the two that are strong the index and pinky are weak. This also allows more controll of the weapon.
this is only my opinion
sincerly Matthew Damignani

Brian Owens
30th May 2006, 06:49
...there is no power in the pinky, the two middle fingers are the two that are strong the index and pinky are weak.
This may vary from school to school. I was taught to have more "squeeze" in the little finger, then a little less in the ring finger, a little less still in the middle finger, and less still in the index finger.

After practicing it that way for a bit, I do have some "power in my pinky." ;)

JAnstey
30th May 2006, 07:39
... a Jo hachidan told us that the pinky is the Yin the female and is precious, the thumb is the Yang the masculine. The man and woman must work in harmony. But you must look after the precious female.

I also believe that you can't weild a sword without a pinky, and seem to remember that this was a reason that yakuza would cut off the little finger as an ultimate disgrace/punishement??

random stuff on a quiet day at work ;)

Cheers

Jason

Brian Owens
30th May 2006, 08:29
...yakuza would cut off the little finger as an ultimate disgrace/punishement??
My understanding is that it was not as a disgrace or punishment, but to attone for a disgrace; a sort of mini-seppuku.

But I probably read too many books and watch too many movies. ;)

JAnstey
30th May 2006, 08:34
My understanding is that it was not as a disgrace or punishment, but to attone for a disgrace; a sort of mini-seppuku.

But I probably read too many books and watch too many movies. ;)

... yup, I'm guilty as well :)

I did think it was in reference to the importance of the pinky in JSA??? But I'm not about to put any money on that being correct.

Cheers

Jason

Brian Owens
30th May 2006, 13:07
Could have sworn it was in Deity and the Sword but I can't see it in a casual look-through, but it's certainly on page 55 of Japanese Swordsmanship by Warner and Draeger (first ed. 1982 Weatherhill)

With a shinken you may not want to put your pinky at the butt end, that's where the knot is, and you may unwrap it creating a couple hundred dollars worth of work for a wrapper. Secondly, if you take a finger off the hilt you take 25% of the power out of the lever that is your left hand.
You are correct; there is mention of the little finger being off the hilt in Deity, as well as in Japanese Swordsmanship.

For those wanting to look this up, in Japanese Swordsmanship, on page 54 of the second paperback printing, Warner & Draeger write:

In order that he might develop maximum leverage when using his sword, the warrior gave serious consideration to the manner in which his hands must hold the hilt. He spaced them widely apart, as far as the hilt accommodated them, and this requirement produced the hand grip that characterizes all combative sword-drawing techniques. The left hand must grip at the very butt end of the hilt, and often the little finger is allowed to project beyond the butt end. [Emphasis added.]

In The Deity and the Sword: Volume 1, on page 27 of the 12th printing, Otake Sensei, as translated by Draeger, writes:

In the case of Seigan no kamae...The right hand holds near the handguard, while the left hand holds the extreme butt-end of the hilt to the extent that the little finger may be off the hilt. [Emphasis added.]

Dave Lowry also speaks of this in Bokken: Art of the Japanese Sword, when -- on page 38 of the 12th printing -- he writes:

...It is important that the little finger not actually be wrapped around the weapon itself, but curled tightly underneath it.

Not everyone agrees, of course. In many schools you'll see the butt of the hilt protruding from the left hand, and the hands seperated by only one or two finger-widths; and while Warner and Draeger called that method "inane," the schools doing so probably have their own good reasons for doing so.

In reference to Brian Kennedy's original question, though; while I have seen and read of the sword being held in this manner, I have not seen, read, nor been taught of the jo being held so.

SMJodo
30th May 2006, 14:22
In reference to Brian Kennedy's original question, though; while I have seen and read of the sword being held in this manner, I have not seen, read, nor been taught of the jo being held so.

Brian - I would agree with this. I'm also a bit less versed on the more technical aspects of the sword when it comes to Iaido.

Andy Watson
13th June 2006, 23:38
While I am nothing but an insect before God when it comes to Donn Draeger, there has been much work challenging some of his writings in the last few years and the perception I have is that a) the pinky off the end is a speciality technique of TSKR in order to reverse the sword and cut up and b) that Donn was extremely critical of a lot of other sword schools if they didn't follow the same set of rationale of TSKR.

I may be completely wrong here of course but in "Japanese Swordsmanship" on the one hand he gives Hayashizaki offshoots a bit of a hardtime but then devotes nearly 4/5 of the book on these very schools AND THEN SEITEI!

I am very glad to hear the likes of Kim's opinion on the use of all the fingers in making a good cut. It is interesting seeing the difference in cutting technology between schools such as TSKR and "mainstream" iaido. The former exhibits very quick but slightly choppy cuts which would be facilitated by having the hands spaced apart as far as possible whereas the latter go for larger and geometrically more arc-like large cuts. Which would be most effective? Speed or distance, which is most important? I think I am veering dangerously now.

Anyway, my own opinion lies in the belief that off-tsuka-pinkies are good for when there is a good reason for it and I think the reverse sword upper cut seems to be the only good reason. Good cutting, thrusting? I can't see how physically it can be advantageous to not use all the fingers and executing good te no uchi.

Kim Taylor
14th June 2006, 03:31
Well one way of doing a very fast and extremely painful do cut in kendo that was taught at least a couple years ago in Canada was to start with your nice foot-wide kendo grip, bring the sword up overhead and as you swing it down to cut do, slide the left hand up to the right hand and drill it right into the lungs. Very fast and very painful. Then make sure you slide it back to the right place before the ref or your opponent sees what you did.

In Jodo, if you leave your hands too wide while trying to do, say, tachi otoshi uchi, what happens? Yeah, exactly.

As my late and much missed long lost brother Bill Mears used to say about wide grips and the swing it causes, "So then you've whacked him in the forehead and now he's REALLY PISSED".

Kim Taylor




It is interesting seeing the difference in cutting technology between schools such as TSKR and "mainstream" iaido. The former exhibits very quick but slightly choppy cuts which would be facilitated by having the hands spaced apart as far as possible .

100110
20th June 2006, 09:24
Re: grip, cutting, etc, forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that

a) it's easy to cut with bad technique

b) we try to cut with good technique

c) there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Andy Watson
20th June 2006, 09:40
I really think the name of this thread should be changed. It's a bit weird sitting at work and an email notification comes up with the words "small finger on bottom"...

JAnstey
20th June 2006, 10:15
I really think the name of this thread should be changed. It's a bit weird sitting at work and an email notification comes up with the words "small finger on bottom"...


Yup I a hard time explaining that one to the girl I work with! I still think that she doesn't believe me ;-o

Cheers

Jason