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shakra
29th May 2006, 21:13
Hi there,

I have a question regarding the names of certian techniques and would be gratefull if someone could provide some insight.

Is technique udi garmi nage the same as udi garmi juji nage?

or is there some slight diffrences?

the terminology used is aikiki

thanks

Andrew S
29th May 2006, 21:58
One difficulty here is that not every senior instructor within the Aikikai uses the exact same terminology. (Simple example: one kind of kokyu nage may be called juji nage by one instructor, tembin nage by another)
Maybe if you could provide a description (or better yet, some photos or video) of the ude garami nage in question, we will probably be able to help you.

Tim Mailloux
29th May 2006, 22:07
Hi there,

I have a question regarding the names of certian techniques and would be gratefull if someone could provide some insight.

Is technique udi garmi nage the same as udi garmi juji nage?

or is there some slight diffrences?

the terminology used is aikiki

thanks

Like Andrew said, this isn't so easily answered as different shihan use different names for techniques. In the USAF alone I have heard the same technigue (Juji nage) called 3 different names by Chiba, Yamada & the late Kanai sensei.

What Chiba sensei calls juji nage, Yamada sensei calls Ude-nage & I belive Kanai sensei called Ude Garami.

shakra
29th May 2006, 22:19
I see this may go without an anwser or they may be the exact same technique.
but hers a quick short description of my interpritation of udigarmi nage

tori performes the first movments of ikyo (omote)but does not pin the partner to the ground but holds uke securely at the elbow and wrist. uke is sort of sitting or knelling on the ground tori then disengages the grip on the elbow wraps the hand under and grips his own wrist he then turns his body and pins his partner in a similare motion to shiho nage and exucest a pin similare in form to sankyo\nikkyo. sorry for the poor description but hopefuly someone will rember the technique I am attempting to descrive.

thanks

Andrew S
30th May 2006, 09:48
That technique is listed as ude garami in my syllabus.

Flintstone
30th May 2006, 09:56
When I once tried to name that waza I found it's name to be "O-Guruma", "Ude Garami" being a very diferent technique.

Diferent names for the same thing, this is Aikido :)

P Goldsbury
30th May 2006, 10:34
The names are not proper names, like a person's name, but descriptions of what happens or of important points in the waza.

Thus karamu 絡む means to entwine or entangle. Juuji 十字 is a cross or the kanji for 10.

So both variations of the waza focus on 'entwining' the arms in the form of a cross. I trained with Chiba Sensei many years ago and this was one of his favourite waza. He used do do it as a nage-waza, or throw, rather than as a pin. You can do either, but you start out with uke's elbows in the form of a cross.

The waza you have described is different. Like juuji-nage or ude-garami, it starts from 1-kyou, but, unlike these waza, it does not make use of uke's other arm. In the nage-waza version, you pin the elbow and then make use of uke's momentum to throw (with a big movement called irimi-tankan). The version you described, of grasping your own wrist, is a pinning variation of this. There is no 'official' name for this waza as far as I know.

Tim Mailloux
30th May 2006, 13:20
The names are not proper names, like a person's name, but descriptions of what happens or of important points in the waza.

Thus karamu 絡む means to entwine or entangle. Juuji 十字 is a cross or the kanji for 10.

So both variations of the waza focus on 'entwining' the arms in the form of a cross. I trained with Chiba Sensei many years ago and this was one of his favourite waza. He used do do it as a nage-waza, or throw, rather than as a pin. You can do either, but you start out with uke's elbows in the form of a cross.

The waza you have described is different. Like juuji-nage or ude-garami, it starts from 1-kyou, but, unlike these waza, it does not make use of uke's other arm. .

I may be confused here, but the technique that Chiba sensei calls jujinage (these days) only involves one of ukes arms. The technique starts off similar to any opening for shihonage. Both nage and uke are facing the same direction. Nage is holding ukes right wrist in his right hand, across nages body. Nage then raises his left arm under ukes right elbow while applying downward pressure with his right hand on ukes wrist. Kind of a standing arm bar. The upwards pressure on ukes elbow cuases uke to raise his center to take pressure off his elbow. As uke raises his center, nage slides or steps in (depending on his stance) with his left leg diagonally infront of uke and throws him with sort of a hip throw action while keeping pressure on ukes elbow.

I am not going to even try to explain what Chiba sensei calls ude garami. Basiclly it involves twisting up both of ukes arms together in a cross like shape, and using one of ukes arms to apply pressure to the back side of the other one of ukes elbows. Chiba sensei likes to do this one as nage waza as well. But like most of his throws, he projects uke down not out, and he holds both of ukes arms the entire throw. Makes for hard ukemi. When uke hits the ground he is pinned using the same arm twisting/crossing/ motion used to throw uke (very painfull) on the elbow. Uke has to tap with his feet becuase both hands are occupied.

shakra
30th May 2006, 14:05
I may be confused here, but the technique that Chiba sensei calls jujinage (these days) only involves one of ukes arms. The technique starts off similar to any opening for shihonage. Both nage and uke are facing the same direction. Nage is holding ukes right wrist in his right hand, across nages body. Nage then raises his left arm under ukes right elbow while applying downward pressure with his right hand on ukes wrist. Kind of a standing arm bar. The upwards pressure on ukes elbow cuases uke to raise his center to take pressure off his elbow. As uke raises his center, nage slides or steps in (depending on his stance) with his left leg diagonally infront of uke and throws him with sort of a hip throw action while keeping pressure on ukes elbow.

I am not going to even try to explain what Chiba sensei calls ude garami. Basiclly it involves twisting up both of ukes arms together in a cross like shape, and using one of ukes arms to apply pressure to the back side of the other one of ukes elbows. Chiba sensei likes to do this one as nage waza as well. But like most of his throws, he projects uke down not out, and he holds both of ukes arms the entire throw. Makes for hard ukemi. When uke hits the ground he is pinned using the same arm twisting/crossing/ motion used to throw uke (very painfull) on the elbow. Uke has to tap with his feet becuase both hands are occupied.

The technique you described I would know as juji nage and ude kimi(sp) nage I think both are correct

P Goldsbury
30th May 2006, 15:06
I may be confused here, but the technique that Chiba sensei calls jujinage (these days) only involves one of ukes arms. The technique starts off similar to any opening for shihonage. Both nage and uke are facing the same direction. Nage is holding ukes right wrist in his right hand, across nages body. Nage then raises his left arm under ukes right elbow while applying downward pressure with his right hand on ukes wrist. Kind of a standing arm bar. The upwards pressure on ukes elbow cuases uke to raise his center to take pressure off his elbow. As uke raises his center, nage slides or steps in (depending on his stance) with his left leg diagonally infront of uke and throws him with sort of a hip throw action while keeping pressure on ukes elbow.

I am not going to even try to explain what Chiba sensei calls ude garami. Basiclly it involves twisting up both of ukes arms together in a cross like shape, and using one of ukes arms to apply pressure to the back side of the other one of ukes elbows. Chiba sensei likes to do this one as nage waza as well. But like most of his throws, he projects uke down not out, and he holds both of ukes arms the entire throw. Makes for hard ukemi. When uke hits the ground he is pinned using the same arm twisting/crossing/ motion used to throw uke (very painfull) on the elbow. Uke has to tap with his feet becuase both hands are occupied.

No, you are not confused, but your post adds weight to the point I made in my earlier post that the names are descriptions, rather than labels, and so different shihans have named the same technique differently according to their own preferred focus.

The first technique you referred is sometimes called 'tenbin-nage' here. 'Tenbin' means balance and a tenbin-bou is a pole carried across the shoulders (think of idyllic pictures of Japanese peasants in Edo Japan) with a load evenly balanced at either end of the pole. I think the idea is that uke's arm becomes the 'tenbin-bo', since it is the focus of a certain balance between the weight of uke's body and your own weight pushing down on his wrist. Of course, it is also called 'juuji-nage' because uke's arm, held by tori, and tori's arm, which projects uke forwards into the throw, have the form of a 'juuji' or cross.

The second technique you describe is also sometimes called 'juuji-garami' (cross-twine), rather than 'ude-garami' (elbow twine), depending on preference. The technique you describe is exactly what I used to practise when Chiba Sensei was in the UK. You really need to have your wits about you when you take ukemi from his techique, since you are given just enough clearance to take a breakfall. Otherwise you can hit your head on the mat and end up in hospital (as I once saw in one of his classes--from this very waza).

So it can be ude-garami (stretching the arms and crossing/'twining' at the elbows) or juuji-garami (stretching the arms arms and 'crossing' the elbows), depending on one's preference.

However, I repeat that the technique described by the original poster is neither of these.

Ron Tisdale
30th May 2006, 15:44
Ude garami in Yoshinkan is where you twine your arm around uke's arm and grab your own wrist, throwing with the large pivot as Peter G. described.

Juji-nage is where you lock uke's arms together at the elbows, make the cross shape with uke's arm, and throw and release, or throw and pin.

I like both of these very much, but I have problems doing the first (I have problems with both, but more with the first) against active resistence. The central problem I find is taking uke's balance sufficiently that while you wrap and throw they don't beat you like a red-headed step-child with their free hand. ;) Anyone care to speak to that issue?

Best,
Ron

Tim Mailloux
30th May 2006, 15:47
You really need to have your wits about you when you take ukemi from his techique, since you are given just enough clearance to take a breakfall. Otherwise you can hit your head on the mat and end up in hospital (as I once saw in one of his classes--from this very waza).
.

yes, it is scary ukemi. I don't mind taking it as much as I mind throwing people as I know I can do the ukemi myself but other may not. Unless I know my uke can really handle him/herself I will ussually let one arm go as I throw them. I will still keep control of one arm and do a different pin. I have had to many close calls with people with less them great ukemi almost landing on their head / neck when I hold on to both arms. Becuace you are being thrown down into the ground instead of projected out you have very little clearance and time to do a typical break fall, and no matter how good your ukemi you still take it in the elbows.

As for having your whits about you when taking this ukemi with Chiba sensei, that goes for taking ANY ukemi for him.

Tim Mailloux
30th May 2006, 18:20
Ude garami in Yoshinkan is where you twine your arm around uke's arm and grab your own wrist, throwing with the large pivot as Peter G. described.


I like both of these very much, but I have problems doing the first (I have problems with both, but more with the first) against active resistence. The central problem I find is taking uke's balance sufficiently that while you wrap and throw they don't beat you like a red-headed step-child with their free hand. ;) Anyone care to speak to that issue?

Best,
Ron

we call this throw a Kukyunage variation. Typically we start this one off with an ikkyo omete or ura entrance. After the initial opening you should be imobalizing ukes arm at his wrist and elbow and he should be bent over and off balance. Very similar to the transition stage of Sankyo, Yonkyo, or Rokkyo. You then apply some additional downward pressure to ukes arm / elbow. Just enough pressure to get uke to push back. As he pushes back (it works even if he doesn't) quickly wrap the arm / hand that was controling ukes elbow around his arm and grab your own write (the one holding ukes wrist). As soon as you grab your wrist perform irimi-tenkan bringing uke hand back up towards his own face as you tenkan. Kind of a kotegaishi type movement, only a much more solid lock. We often do this ending the tenkan on our knees never letting go of your wirst. When uke falls use the the leverage on his arm to roll him over, the pin just sort of happens. If uke won't roll over easily, you are in a great position for an arm bar. I saw Chiba sensei do many arm bar variations this weekend at his seminar. He did so many pin variations I lost track of them all. I have found this technique to be very effective on even the largest ukes. The great thing is you have some many options from the opening. Can't get this technique do rokkyo, sankyo or yonkyo

Ron Tisdale
30th May 2006, 18:25
:) Yeah, I like the pinning part at the end...that I've never had trouble with. One of the kyu tests this year has this waza on it. I can't remember the exact entry to it...but it wasn't an ikkyo with uke already bent over. I'll have to check my notes on the entry...maybe I'm missing that kind of application. Doing this the way you describe would be much easier...

Best,
Ron

Tim Mailloux
30th May 2006, 18:50
:) Yeah, I like the pinning part at the end...that I've never had trouble with. One of the kyu tests this year has this waza on it. I can't remember the exact entry to it...but it wasn't an ikkyo with uke already bent over. I'll have to check my notes on the entry...maybe I'm missing that kind of application. Doing this the way you describe would be much easier...

Best,
Ron

IMO it is a very easy technique to do. It looks impresive, but really isn't that difficult. The other way I do this is from any shihonage entrance. If I blow the entrance to shihonage, or my uke is resistive I can easily transition to this technique. They never see it coming :-).