multiple punches

[aiki_nishino87]

Hi to Everyone!

In Aikido, techniques are applied on single blow of Uke (a shomen uchi or yokomen uchi), but in the street, when an Aikidoka is attacked with fast/multiple punches, what is the best thing that he does ? may be an fast, “Ki filled” irimitsuki ?

Thanks!

[Green_Dreads]

Aikido uke is not limited to shomen uchi and yokomen uchi. There's also jodan zuki (punch to the jaw/face), chudan zuki (punch to the mid-section), and various dojo use combination attacks, but these are not (to my knowledge) used in a grading syllabus anywhere.

In the dojo I train in, the most common tori counter attack to judan zuki is irimi nage, and the most common counter to chudan zuki is kotogashi.

[aiki_nishino87]

Stephen Lewin,

I agree with you about Iriminage and Kotegaeshi on judan and chudan tsuki, when they are single fists; but when someone comes with many fast punches, is difficult apply those techniques.
Perhaps, do you apply the technique, on the first of these multiple blows that uke launches ?

[Green_Dreads]

Stephen Lewin,

I agree with you about Iriminage and Kotegaeshi on judan and chudan tsuki, when they are single fists; but when someone comes with many fast punches, is difficult apply those techniques.
Perhaps, do you apply the technique, on the first of these multiple blows that uke launches ?

I don't think the kata work the same in reality as the do in the dojo, they just provide a pattern to improvise along.

I have grappled with friends and used aikido techniques, but never applied them from striking. However, from my experience in kickboxing I would say that it is possible to apply almost any technique to an overly commited uke, even if the attack is quickly followed up.

Attempting to handle multiple attacks from trained strikers is another field entirely.

[Amir]

Hi to Everyone!

In Aikido, techniques are applied on single blow of Uke (a shomen uchi or yokomen uchi), but in the street, when an Aikidoka is attacked with fast/multiple punches, what is the best thing that he does ? may be an fast, “Ki filled” irimitsuki ?

Thanks!


One does not normally throw multiple attacks at once, the attacks are thrown one at a time. If you move properly in response to the first attack, and get out of line, the second attack will require longer time to come, this grants you longer time to react then it would seem when looking at someone punching at the air.

Further, some techniques are easier to apply against multiple attacks, for example - Juji nage (I know other dojo's may use a different name) and quite a few others.

In our dojo we have practiced in a more structured way against multiple attacks, and then we even categorized the responses based on their timing, when looking at two consecutive attacks:
-> Responding to the end of the first attack. For example, using the returning punch hand for a lock or throw, or entering with it into Uke. One can sense the second attack is coming and uses entry to remain out of it's line, Preferably (proper movement at first) it is possible to use the realignment towards the second attack for the Kuzushi.
-> Responding to the start of the second attack. Again, use the realignment time to gain your own entry in a very early attack stage.
-> Responding to the second attack. One can react to the second attack from the new position, with or without regard to the first attack. Juji nage is an example for reaction with regard to the first attack - the first attack must be captured and controlled while the attack is on-going.

Once one is good enough in responding to the first attack, and can react to a couple. There is no problem with any length of attacks chain. Obviously, in a non practice situation, you should know why you did not intercept your attacker at his first attack and let him continue since each attack increases your risk of injury. Sometimes, you may have strategic considerations which would make you decide to take this risk (one of the yundasha in our dojo was attacked by a neighbor and he evaded harm for several minutes until the neighbor lost his breath. He was not willing to injure the man and felt he could not subdue him in a safe manner).


Amir


P.S.

There's also jodan zuki (punch to the jaw/face), chudan zuki (punch to the mid-section), and various dojo use combination attacks, but these are not (to my knowledge) used in a grading syllabus anywhere.

At least in our dojo, multiple striking situations are required in the examinations. At a minimum one would have to show a technique against couple of punching forms (two of the possible combinations: long and short punch, to head and body), in addition, one is expected to show a technical response to a dual attack.

[aiki_nishino87]

thanks, Amir and Stephen

you have taken off many of my doubts.
I have understand that apply technique on one punch is basically equal to apply technique on more punches.
If it is the second, third ... punch, for an aikidoka it must be as if it is the first strike.
Just timing/irimi. Is it right?
thank you, Amir, for your detailed post.

Perhaps, Aikido is the only martial art that requires more time then others to enable one to defend him/her self in the street.
However, for this context, I have just found a quote of Ueshiba Sensei: “in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi (surely with kuzushi), the 30% is waza”

[Green_Dreads]

thanks, Amir and Stephen

you have taken off many of my doubts.
I have understand that apply technique on one punch is basically equal to apply technique on more punches.
If it is the second, third ... punch, for an aikidoka it must be as if it is the first strike.
Just timing/irimi. Is it right?
thank you, Amir, for your detailed post.

Perhaps, Aikido is the only martial art that requires more time then others to enable one to defend him/her self in the street.

Not at all. Karate, tai chi chuan, most Chinese styles (including the Shoalin styles) and several others require a lot of training to be as or any more effective than aikido.

When we discuss aikido as related to self-defence, I think its important to look at Daito ryu (the parent art of aikido), and I reccomend you do. There's some interesting revelations in there.


However, for this context, I have just found a quote of Ueshiba Sensei: “in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi (surely with kuzushi), the 30% is waza”

I think that was more true for him that most of us today. Without the proper knowledge of aiki, I think a person at my own level has more chance using waza. I'm open to anyone challenging that though, I'm not in fights every Tuesday night to really know.

[Amir]

I have understand that apply technique on one punch is basically equal to apply technique on more punches.
If it is the second, third ... punch, for an aikidoka it must be as if it is the first strike.
Just timing/irimi. Is it right?


The difference in the timing is vital, and unless you practice punching situations constantly, you will find the second punch always gets in.
The same goes for the movement, it is not enough to deflect the first punch, you must be in a position that would break your attacker sequence. Again - practice makes perfect.




Perhaps, Aikido is the only martial art that requires more time then others to enable one to defend him/her self in the street.
waza”

in my view, Aikido is only the advanced section of some Ju-Jutsu, without the beginner section. Hence, one focuses on practicing advanced principles - aiki, and the underling assumption is that one is good enough to utilize this in real life. Combine this element with a multitude of techniques, which are very delicate and require high accuracy, and you will understand why it takes very long to reach any level of proficiency.
Aikido is not the only M.A. of this type. And the quality of the teacher and student, their goals and willingness do matter. Some ways of practice will never make one proficient outside the dojo.

Amir

[aiki_nishino87]

Yes, Amir, surely, these levels are attained through constant, long and correct practice.
I have said that Aikido is perhaps the martial art that requires more time to make it efficient in the street, because at first, the beginners must learn the balance, the kuzushi, then techniques on a grab attack (ex. katate mochi, kata mochi), after that an Aikidoka can begin to react to strike and after he can control punches. The ideal in Aikido is react at the first uke’s attack, and apply quickly a technique, like Shioda Gozo Sensei did, that executed mostly irimiwaza, applying an “violent” kuzushi, leaving uke powerless thrown.
But to reach this level, in my opinion, we have need almost of 20-25 (or more) years of constant practice.
Regarding to Daito ryu, Stephen, I think is very similar to Aikido Yoshinkan, which I practice.
However, Shioda Gozo Sensei said that after a long practice in the Dojo, is important test the techinques in a real situation; he did it!!

[Amir]

The ideal in Aikido is react at the first uke’s attack.

we have need almost of 20-25 (or more) years of constant practice.


a) One has to be very soft, as he has to react to the intent, not to the attack, by the moment the attack is clear, it is too late for irimi and sometimes (short distance), too late for anything. This is even more important when talking of S.D. - the first thing to do is identification of threat, long before the confrontation actually started.

Obviously, this requires much higher level then my own.

b) 20-25 years seems like a short time for me, as I am only an amateur and do not practice several hours daily.

Amir

[aiki_nishino87]

One has to be very soft, as he has to react to the intent, not to the attack,

Interesting point Amir! react to the intent, not to the attack !
In fact when I try irimi on a punch, I’m late, and I don’t execute kuzushi properly; this because I’m reacting to the attack, not to the intent.
To achieve this, we must fell with senses, not see with eyes, right?
Surely, this is one of the most important things to realize the AIKI.
As beginner, I have focused too much on technical aspects of Aikido, and I have neglected this “human” aspect of Aikido.



This is even more important when talking of S.D.

sorry, what do you mean “S.D.” ?

[Amir]

S.D. -> Self Defense.

The problem with reaction to intent is the difficulty to actually do this. This would probably take me a few more decades to learn if I will ever succeed in it.

Amir