Need complete list & descriptions for MJER waza

[Ken-Hawaii]

Aloha, all:

Our dojo had several kodansha pass their shodan exams last weekend, & Sensei is allowing several of them to start the study of iaido. He teaches us MJER waza, & as the dojo's "scribe," I am trying to compile a complete list of MJER waza, along with enough detailed descriptions to help the new students.

I have enough information for shoden, batto, & of course Seitei Iai, but am missing significant amounts of descriptors for chuden, okuden, tachi uchi no kurai, & probably several other forms. I would appreciate any help, & am willing to e-mail the information that I've already compiled to anyone who needs it.

Mahalo! (Thanks!)

[Andy Watson]

Hi Ken

Nicklaus Suino's The Art of Japanese Swordsmanship is a good reference book with a comprehensive history. It doesn't have Tachi Uchi no Kurai but it seems to have everything else.

[ZealUK]

http://www.eikoku-roshukai.com/compilationofswordforms.pdf

http://www.hyoho.com/Snobulink.html

That should help.

I would contact Eikoku Roshukai or Hyaku if you want to copy that stuff however.

[Douglas Wylie]

The COMPLETE list by one account is-

1. Omori Ryu Iai no Koto, Batto no Shoden, 11 forms from seiza
2. Eishin Ryu Iai no Koto, Batto no Chuden, 10 forms from iaihiza (tatehiza)
3. Tachiuchi no Kurai, 10 forms standing, daito vs. daito
4. Tsumeai no Kurai (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms in iaihiza, daito vs. daito
5. Daishozume (Shigenobu Ryu), 8 forms from iaihiza, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
6. Daisho Tachizume (Shigenobu Ryu), 7 forms standing, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
7. Daikendori, 10 forms total, 4 forms shoto vs. daito (shoto wins), 6 forms daito vs. daito
8. Batto no Okuden (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms from iaihiza, 12 standing forms.
9. Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu, 5 forms bo vs. bo, 8 forms sword vs. bo
10. Natsubara Ryu Yawara:
a. Yawara no Kata, 10 forms
b. Tachiai Kaisogake, Yawara no Kata, 10 forms
c. Kogusoku, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms (in these forms, both participants are seated in an "iaigoshi" posture, on their toes with left knee down and the right knee up)
d. Ato Tachiai, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms
e. Kogusoku Wari, Yawara No Kata, 10 forms
f. Honte no Utsuri, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms

[Ken-Hawaii]

That's exactly what I am looking for, Douglas!! Thanks :p !!

Where did you locate that list? My long-term goal is to list each waza with a brief description of how it is performed. I guess I should explain that a bit further. Each waza obviously has a name; an English translation; whether it is done from seiza, tatehiza, or tachi-ai; which weapon is used (iaito, bokken, shoto, etc.); whether it it a partnered waza; & a few sentences that describe the performance of the waza.

So as a brief example of what I'm listing: Seitei Iai, Ippon-me, Mae (front) - seiza, iaito - First feeling threatened by the enemy sitting in front, deliver a horizontal cut to the temple (nukitsuke) and then cut down vertically (kirioroshi); o-chiburi, noto. This is obviously not enough information for a student to learn Mae, but will serve as a reminder while they are learning.

[Erik Tracy]

Ken,
I believe that list has come by way of the e-budo archives and a post by our esteemed Earl Hartman, who was once a student of Masaoka Kazumi Sensei, considered to be the 18th headmaster of one of the several ryu-ha of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. If I recall, this complete list was a translation on the part of Earl from a book he has.

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt you will find any type of descriptions for *all* of the sets in the list as they are rarely known or practiced or perhaps are even 'lost'.

On top of that, any such extant descriptions will vary between the different Eishin-ryu organizations and instructors.

If this is for local consumption only within your organization/dojo, you might be best off assuming the task of ryu-ha recorder and banging in notes in accordance with how your sensei teaches each technique.

Notes I have may be at odds with how you receive instruction and would only cause confusion - or worse - and we wouldn't want that, now, would we? ;)

Regards,
Erik Tracy
Jikishin-kai

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, I'm aware that I probably won't be able to find descriptions of all the waza in every set, Erik. But I won't know unless I try. There are a lot of iaidoka on this forum with a ton of experience, & I expect that I will be able to assemble quite a bit of information.

Sensei does review everything that I scribe before it goes out to his students, by the way.

[Douglas Wylie]

Hi Ken,

E-budo archives. It is all there. From what I can tell everything except the bojutsu and yawara have been confirmed to still be practiced, perhaps not by all but definately by some.

This site- http://seto3s.hp.infoseek.co.jp/kata.html

lists by technique-
Seiza no bu
Tatehiza no bu
Oku iai- it lists the Iwaza and Tachiwaza together
Tachiuchi no kurai (in both the 7 and 10 waza styles)
Tsumeai no kurai
Daishozume
Daishotachizume
Daikendori
Bangai (but it is missing 2 waza)

The soke list ends with Kono sensei so I am not sure if this list is from your group.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Sure wish I could read Japanese, Douglas.... I passed that Web-site along to Sensei with my request that he assist me with translation.

Thanks again.

[Chidokan]

I keep meaning to finish off the memory jogger on my site ...but I keep forgetting... :D
http://chidokan.tripod.com/id8.html

this was a good thread on the subject...
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3055&page=1&pp=15&highlight=seitei

I can send a copy of my notes if you like...that way your sensei can blame me, not you, for any errors... :)

[Charles Mahan]

Douglas left out Batto Ho, which addmittedly not all lines of MJER practice.
Including Batto Ho adds 7 more basic and 4 advanced tachi waza.

[Ken-Hawaii]

From all of the good feedback I've gotten on this topic, it strikes me that it may be a good idea to create a "library" of waza, including video where available. Being an MJER disciple, I would of course prefer to start with Eishin-Ryu. Yes, I realize that the style from another dojo is unlikely to be exactly the same as in my dojo, but I think this type of reference would be valuable, even to those of us who have studied iaido for many years.

Comments? Problems?

[Erik Tracy]

From all of the good feedback I've gotten on this topic, it strikes me that it may be a good idea to create a "library" of waza, including video where available. Being an MJER disciple, I would of course prefer to start with Eishin-Ryu. Yes, I realize that the style from another dojo is unlikely to be exactly the same as in my dojo, but I think this type of reference would be valuable, even to those of us who have studied iaido for many years.

Comments? Problems?

Ken - great idea..but...

If it is a private library - it may work. Problem with a video library on a 'public' forum is - and we've all seen this - post a video of yourself, or someone from your dojo, or one you found on the internet, and folks just love to be armchair 'experts' and make not so very polite comments.

Maybe when there is world peace we can also outgrow the pettiness to nit-pick pictures and video of others doing iai. To paraphrase a saying here "It (should) be all good" - unfortunately, egos get in the way.

Erik

[renfield_kuroda]

Instead of trying to assemble a library of reference videos for your art, one idea is maybe to spend several decades learning everything that your sensei can teach you?
Don't want to be impolite, but it is my personal opinion that such libraries and archives do very little little to promote the ryu itself. Nice for someone outside the ryu, but for those inside it, it's generally redundant.
I personally collect all kinds of materials; old writings of past sensei, DVDs, etc. about my beloved Mugairyu. And I derive much satisfaction and enjoyment from waching and reading them.
But when all is said and done, I go to the dojo and learn what Niina-gosoke teaches me. And THAT is what I teach to the next generation. That knowledge, from sensei to deshi, is the only thing that transmits the art from one generation to the next. All the rest is an interesting historical distraction.

Regards,

r e n

[Aden]

Don't want to be impolite, but it is my personal opinion that such libraries and archives do very little little to promote the ryu itself. Nice for someone outside the ryu, but for those inside it, it's generally redundant.

I think outside Japan libraries and such like are more important - living in Japan I had access to training in one of my arts with the menkyo kaiden who has complete transmission, here in Australia I do not have that luxury, but in addition to the instruction available to me when I travel to train with my seniors, I have for my daily use the vcd's of sensei instructing that I brought from Japan which I converted and carry for reference in an MP4 player the size of a cigarette packet. It doesn't promote the ryu (and there are no formal embu of the kata like in a commercial instructional video) but it helps me remember and as time goes on I see and understand more in the material....

There is also a use for them in the case of ryu like MJER where the sensei (viewed from outside the ryu) seem to have different subsets of a vast curriculum at their disposal, and its handy when there is only 1 class a week!

Possibly not much use for ryu with relatively small formal curricula where most of the variation is the sort of thing that involves kuden and sensei wandering through 'what if...'.

Aden Steinke

[Ken-Hawaii]

I generally agree with you, Ren, but as Sensei only has access to our dojo facility once a week for MJER practice, my wife & I have certainly benefitted from the multi-angle video I shot of him performing Shoden & Batto-ho. And all of our iaido students have purchased the DVD I created from Sensei so that they could also benefit when they can't be at the dojo practicing. Ninety minutes a week isn't really enough time for us to become proficient very quickly. And when we practice in our home dojo, having a visual reference has proven to be very helpful to prevent acquiring bad habits.

Eishin-ryu in Japan is far more widespread than it is in the U.S., or least here in Hawaii, where ours is the only dojo teaching it. And I have to think that there are other deshi around the world who have the same problem with limited access to their sensei's training. I will admit that being an engineer points me towards visual learning, but if you can come up with a better way to improve your & my iaido waza considering the limited access, Ren, I'm ready & willing to listen.

But if not, I will be happy to host an MJER video library on my own Web-site, Erik's apt comments about egos & people taking pot-shots notwithstanding :p .

[renfield_kuroda]

I will admit that being an engineer points me towards visual learning, but if you can come up with a better way to improve your & my iaido waza considering the limited access, Ren, I'm ready & willing to listen.
I'm all for vids and texts to help with kata you've already been taught directly by your sensei. Especially for beginners, who are in the "lef-no right foot, then cut..." stage.
But honestly instead of sitting and watched a vid for an hour, go actually DO the kata for 10 minutes.
Again this is my opinion, and only relevant for my beloved art:
I personally think there is such a thing as watching a video too much. For starters, you may be focusing on small details, how the movements LOOK, when you should be working on how the kata feels. We don't do our kata as "30 cm from the ground" or "left foot 45 degrees", we focus on "cut into the enemy's forehead" or "turn enough to avoid the cut but still be within maai to counter", etc. So watching a vid will only show you what's appropriate for that person, with that sword, in the moment.
Also, our kata develop as the student develops; the same first kata shin
has a different rythm, timing, intent, and feeling depending on if being done by a beginner, a shodan, a shihan, or gosoke.
Finally, the kata are all just parts of the whole, the ryu. Memorizing the movements of the 20 Mugairyu kata do not, as Gosoke constantly reminds us, mean we have learned Mugairyu. The movements are irrelevant without the correct intent, timing, distance, cutting accuracy, etc. Spending too much time watching a video and trying to mimic the movements can actually distract from learning the ryu; the strategies and techinques that the kata are trying to teach us.

Then again, I don't want to revive the old "can/can't learn from vids" thread, so I'll leave it at this. Whatever works for you.

Regards,

r e n

[FastEd]

I have found taking video of your own practice and watching it as a form of self analysis, very useful.

[FastEd]

I have found taking video of your own practice and watching it as a form of self analysis, very useful.


That should be "my"

[M. Mauricius]

Ren has been very kind. He spent lots of words to explain a very simple thing: you can't learn martial arts by yourself.

But pushing hard on the keyboard to convince the guys (perfectly analitics, he has been) has forgotten to say the mainly argoment: differently from a DVD, a sword' Sensei talks you with hundred different tones.

A Sensei is a man, who communicates with another man just like only men uses to do.

In facts, when you're in tune with your teacher's feelin' you may learn things so much important and higher than a simple kata's position.

To learn japanise' sword, first of all, it means to learn... your Sensei.



M

[Ken-Hawaii]

Ren, you definitely have the right idea on when a waza video will be helpful. Some kind soul on e-Budo provided a list of all the MJER waza, which amounted to around 190. When I showed Sensei the list, he agreed, & has added another 30 or so waza that he thinks are important.

Now I've been in martial arts since 1959, but have learned (excuse me, been taught) only 58 MJER waza so far, which puts me at about a quarter of the way to experiencing them all. I have to tell you that watching a video of what Sensei has taught so far is a huge help to me! As mentioned, the DVD I created has only the 12 Shoden & 7 Batto-ho waza, along with 6 Seitei Iai waza that Sensei wants his deshi to know, but all our iaidoka have raved about how helpful the video has been. I never said that a video library should be used to learn iaido on your own, but rather that it would be darn valuable to be able to go back & review how your sensei performed each waza.

Okay, enough beating this into the tatami mat.

If any of you have MJER waza in a decent video format (that means no second- or third-generation copies, & most definitely no video from the Internet!), either e-mail me privately or drop a note on this thread, & I'll start accumulating the video library. As soon as I have enough clips for a given MJER form (i.e., Shoden, Okuden, etc.), I'll post them on my Web-site with a credit to the contributor & the performer (when provided). At some point, I may post everything to the Sword Wiki, too.

[M. Mauricius]

QUOTE = Ken-Hawaii

Ren, you definitely have the right idea on when a waza video will be helpful.
...
Now I've been in martial arts since 1959, but have learned (excuse me, been taught) only 58 MJER waza
...
I never said that a video library should be used to learn iaido on your own, but rather that it would be darn valuable to be able to go back & review how your sensei performed each waza.





Hi Ken,

I've post a message, down here, shure of my opinions, and I still remain of those, but reading from you that your AM's practice corrisponds at the years I've lived made me though at the exagerated assertivitly I've used.

Also, it's eighter happened to me that I've sometimes seen private filmated Kata of my Teachers; about this way of use of the videos you're certainly right.

Definitively, you was not talkin' to me but I felt how if I were called in cause. So, I've to say that you teached me twice: one about the videos, and one - higher - about the way to judge. Thank you.



M