Why? [Archive] - E-Budo.com

View Full Version : Why?

Unskilled_Blade

12th June 2006, 19:50

I'm sure theres another thread explaining this.... but I'm lazy :D

Why are almost all Okinawan weapons bladeless (except kamas) this would include:
nunchucks~Bo~Han-bo~sai~jutte~ etc. But why?

TonyU

12th June 2006, 20:15

I'm sure theres another thread explaining this.... but I'm lazy :D

Why are almost all Okinawan weapons bladeless (except kamas) this would include:
nunchucks~Bo~Han-bo~sai~jutte~ etc. But why?
Keep in mind that the weapons were innovations (from what was available to them at the time) to replace something that they could not have, in this case swords.
My take is this, if they could have blades, they would have swords.

Andrew S

12th June 2006, 20:25

Why are almost all Okinawan weapons bladeless (except kamas) this would include:
nunchucks~Bo~Han-bo~sai~jutte~ etc. But why?

Aha, this is a much better question! You really need to work more on your wording ("I was running through a list of Okinawan kobudo in my head, and realized that, with the exception of the kama, they all seemed to be bladeless. Does anyone know why this is?") as this is an introductory question and therefore needs to be polite. But as content goes, not bad.

Ok, lecture over.
I'm no expert, but let's give it a go.
Firstly, you can remove han-bo and jutte (jitte) from your list. These are mainland Japanese weapons.
Second, many Okinawan weapons were bladed - the Okinawan kingdom forged swords and produced bows and arrows, but self-regulation kept them under lock and key. The invasion by the Satsuma clan led to the prohibition of weapons, which meant the Okinawan people needed to improvise. The logical choice? Agricultural tools.
The bo could be improvised from any pole used by the peasantry, or oars used by fishermen.
The tonfa was the handle from mill stones.
Nunchaku (note spelling) could be developed from grain flails or horse bridle bits.
The kama was simply a sickle used for farming.
I'm not sure where the sai fits in, as examples of them used as weapons could also be found in China, the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia. I've heard stories that the peasantry used them as hay forks, although I wouldn't be surprised if the Satsuma clan permitted local police to carry them in the same way mainland Japanese police used jitte.
Again, I'm not expert, and I'm sure someone more knowledgeble will post shortly.

Unskilled_Blade

12th June 2006, 23:15

Thank you, Andrew! I could never understand why there are so many strange Okinawan weapons. Sorry about the way I type, though. I tend to type very fast and sometimes I don't explain things very well. :D

Texasmic

13th June 2006, 01:29

Without going into much detail (because in don't have much time right now) It is my understanding that the Ryukyu King outlawed weapons (swords, spears, that sort of thing) for all but the Bushi, and then them too. He did it in order to promote peace and later to keep his people from getting into fights with the Japanese. The Okinawans learned to fight with improvised tools. The things that would be handy.

I sure someone on here will give you more details, but that is a "thumb nail" sketch as I understand it.

GregorHaenggi

13th June 2006, 12:08

As far as I know it wasn't the Okinawanian people who "invented" those tool-weapons. All of them can be found in different Kung Fu styles especialy in the different southern white crane styles. For exemple the origin of the tunkuwa or tonfa. As you can read on www.kobudo.ch (http://www.kobudo.ch/Tonfa.html) (I know it's written in german, perhaps it will be translated someday ;) ) the tonfa ist also known as "Fu Ping Quai". Fu Ping was the name of an militia system that was founded in the sixth century when peasents were trained to protect the land against the nomadian tribes from the west. There the way between military training and the use of agricultural tools is very short.

Another reason, beside the prohibition of weapons to the people, because there are so little bladed or even iron weapons in the okinawian Systems is that all the iron had to be imported to the islands from Japan or China.

Texasmic

13th June 2006, 14:52

Also, just like in Europe in the Middle Ages it was forbidden for a peasant to possess a weapon. Only the gentry were allowed to wear swords or other weapons.

The Bushi in Ryukyu were oppressed by the Japanese, striped of their rights as gentry, and forced to work at jobs like the peasants. They learned to improvised.

Most of the weapons in Ryukyu kabudo are farming or fishing tools. I have heard the White Crane Kung Fu connection before, and I have no opion about it one way or the other i.e. I don't know. (OMG someone said he didn't know something? lol) :nono:

Harry Cook

15th June 2006, 23:52

Well..not really. Peasants in Europe quite commonly owned weapons; the longbow effectively destroyed the power of mounted knights and that was a peasant weapon. The Lochaber axe in Scotland was not the weapon of choice of the nobility and the spearmen that formed the Scottish schiltrons were of peasant stock.
As for weapons in Okinawa. The tale of a disarmed populace is largely a myth. I presented the evidence in my Precise History of Shotokan if anyone is interested.
Harry Cook

Joseph Svinth

16th June 2006, 05:35

From KRONOS, 1509:

A monument is built at Shuri, Okinawa, to honor the accomplishments of the Ryukyuan King Sho Shin. In 1926, the Okinawan scholar Iha Fuyu interprets that part of the monument reading "Swords and bows and arrows exclusively are accumulated as weapons in the protection of the country" to mean that the king had ordered the collection of all the iron weapons in the country. In 1987, Professor Mitsugu Sakihara of the University of Hawaii showed that this was a misinterpretation of the text, and that King Sho Shin was actually stockpiling arms rather than suppressing them.

From KRONOS, 1669:

The Japanese close the only swordsmithy on Okinawa. During the 1930s, Iha Fuyu and Funakoshi Gichin claimed that this closure caused Ryukyuan farmers to develop karate for the purpose of self-defense. Fuyu is also responsible for the theory that peasants who lacked weapons created karate. But, as this theory was not publicly advanced until 1942, it may have more to do with Japanese militarism of the 1930s than historical fact.

As for the Okinawan bushi class, it eventually represented a third of the total population. Like many modern folk, some members of this class believed their ancestry entitled them to do nothing except cash their welfare and Social Security checks. And, like many modern folk, some of these latter people whined mightily when Dad told them, "You're 35 now. So, either get a job and start paying some rent, or move out of the basement." And, in the case of Okinawa, this started happening circa 1724, when the Naha government moved a bunch of aristocratic deadbeats to the countryside.

okinawanfighter

19th June 2006, 17:32

In 1477, the new King of Okinawa, Sho, Shin, was responsible for putting a stop to feudalism on Okinawa by making all the anji move to the capital of Shuri and imposing a ban on all weapons. Developing out of necessity, the Okinawans learned to use their empty hands and their farming and fishing tools to defend themselves. When the Shimazu Clan from Satsuma invaded Okinawa in 1609, they continued to enforce the weapons ban.

The bo was derived from a farming tool called a tenbib (tin-beeb), which was used to carry buckets or bundles around on either end. This tool came in a variety of shapes and sizes. The most common was the rokushakumarubo (roh-ku-shah-ku-mah-ruh-boh), which is a six foot piece of round wood. Other shapes included kaku bo (four sided bo), rokaku bo (six sided bo) and hakkaku bo (eight sided bo). The Okinawan bo is tapered at both ends rather than one diameter.

Sai - The three pronged, metal truncheon is a unique weapon believed to have been introduced to Okinawa by the Chinese in and around the late 1400's. The sai was employed by the local law enforcement the same way the modern day police use their night stick. There has been some controversy and even some speculation as to the origin of the sai. Some believe it to be a weapon that was created as opposed to a farming or fishing tool, similar to a tool used in China to create holes in the ground for seeds. Some even believe that the sai were at one time a bladed weapon.

Tunfa - This weapon developed from two different sources. One was the grist mill handle and the other was a crank handle used for drawing water from a well. Used singularly or in pairs, the practitioner could defend against other weapons effectively, such as a katana or bo. The tunfa employs striking, blocking, and punching as it's techniques. The handle allows the user to swing the tunfa outward for striking and blocking while letting it return to the outside of the forearm to prepare for the next technique.

Nunchaku
One of the most popular martial arts weapons, the nunchaku were derived from two different farming tools; the first of which was an old style horses bit and bridle called a muge (moo-geh), and the second was a tool used to pound grain or rice. Nunchaku come in different shapes and sizes. In Mateyoshi tyr-ha, the most common types of nunchaku are the hakkakukei (hahk-kah-ku-kheh), which are octagonal shaped and maru-gata (mah-rue-gah-tah), which is round. Both are connected by three lengths of cord about three finger widths wide. Sometimes the nunchaku can be connected by a piece of vine called kanda (kahn-dah). The kanda was usually longer than the cord due to the fact that this type of connector could bind an adversaries' hands and head.

Kama
After inspecting this weapon, one can guess that at one time this was no more than a common garden sickle. Usually referred to as ni-cho kama (nee-choh kah-mah), which translates into a pair of kama used in a combative manner. The blades can be used, of course, to cut with, the back of the blade can be used like a club to strike with, and the handle can be used to block and punch with.

Tekko (teh-koh)
This weapon has two possible origins. One lies in the idea that the tekko was used on board fishing boats while pulling the net in so the net would not cut into the hand. The other was the use of a horse shoe simply put into the hand and used to punch with. The first one was made out of wood while the other was made, of course, out of metal. These weapons employ blocking, striking, grabbing, and joint locking.

Eku (eeh-kuu)
Used originally as a boat oar, the eku is capable of being used similarly to that of the bo. One of the techniques employed while using the eku, is taking the wide, flat part of the weapon and throwing sand in your opponent's face. It has a distinct cutting look while being used.

Nunti-bo (noon-teh boh)
Some say that this weapon came from China while others say it was a tool used on the fishing boats to bring in the nets. It consists of a six foot bo with a nunti sai mounted on top. Used like a bo, the nunti-bo can strike, block, grab, and puncture.

Tinbe / Rochin (ten-bay / roh-chen)
The rochin is a twelve to eighteen inch piece of wood with a three to four inch blade on the end. The rochin is used in conjunction with the tinbe, a type of shield usually made out of a turtle shell. As one can guess, the shield is used for deflecting incoming attacks while the rochin would be used to strike back.

Other weapons used on Okinawa are: the kuwa (Okinawan hoe), suruchin (a long chain, weighted at both ends), the abumi (a wooden saddle stirrup), naginata (a seven foot bo with a curved blade on the end), yari (spear), and of course, the katana (a single edged, curved sword).

Gibukai

19th June 2006, 18:40

Hello,

by repeating the tale of Sho Shin's weapon ban one more time, it does not become reality. As Mr. Svinth and Mr. Cook indicated, this tale was the result of one single error in the interpretation of an old monument inscription.

How, do you think for example, did the authorities enforce a person carrying a weapon to lay it down when they were prohibited to use one themselfes? This is only one question that would remain without an answer if one really sticks to that tale.

Many of the mentioned weapons were part of the so called Jigen-Ryu Bo-Odori, which has been developed by a Satsuma warrior in order to instruct samurai of lower social levels and other groups of Satsuma's society in a martial way. As you know, not everyone in Japan was allowed to carry a sabre. So they had to use sticks and other "peasant" tools. These weapons found their way to Ryukyu, too.

R. Sakagami mentioned, that a lack of natural brass was the reason for so many weapons without a blade. However, this could be at most only part of a picture since there are a lot of documents which portray sword wielding Okinawans.

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

okinawanfighter

20th June 2006, 17:29

I guess everyone has an opinion. But who really knows for sure????

Phil Snewin

22nd June 2006, 12:45

Typically, it was the aristocracy who studied M/Arts in Okinawa, not the peasantry. The peasants were too busy trying to scrape a living and simply would not have had time to dedicate to the long term study of M/Arts. They would have been oppressed [sic] by their own aristocracy, and the Satsuma clan and this is no different to any other society where there is more than one tier. [The upper tier imposes a situation that keeps the lower orders in check and in order to provide them with wealth.]

Suggesting that Kobudo weapons were originated by the peasants because of the Satsuma Weapons edit, simply does not hold water on a number of levels which have been gone into enough times before if you really want to find out.

Unlike the commonly held misconception, most if not all of the weapons used in Kobudo are of Chinese origin and the commonly held belief that Sai were used to make holes for planting seeds is just plain daft! Common people could not afford metal implements as metal was a resource in very short supply, and why have an ornate three pronged metal tool when a plain old stick would do?!

Okinawan Martial Artists such as Chatan Yara [1668-1756] and Tode Sakugawa [1733-1815] studied both Chinese Kempo and weaponry in China and introduced these elements to Okinawa to augment the indigenous aristocratic martial art of ti.

For an extensive list of Chinese Weapons, see here: http://chinese-weapons.gungfu.com/

The prime reasons for the majority of Kobudo weapons being bladeless is that
a). metal was too expensive to muck about with and turn into weapons that needed testing, and a method developing for.
b). There were already methods and weapons being taught which did the job, in the form of the predominantly Chinese methods brought to Okinawa by people like Chatan Yara and Tode Sakugawa. If it aint broke, dont fix it, adapt it.

Texasmic

22nd June 2006, 15:10

and the commonly held belief that Sai were used to make holes for planting seeds is just plain daft! Common people could not afford metal implements as metal was a resource in very short supply, and why have an ornate three pronged metal tool when a plain old stick would do?!

Bravo!
The sai as a "seed hole maker" theory is one of the dumbest things I have heard for just the reasons you put forth. I wonder if some teacher years ago said it as a joke and someone took him seriously and it got passed down that way.

~edit~
Heck, think about doing that job. Would you really stoop over all day? Or would you just get a stick where you could stand up and poke a hole, then drop your seed from a standing position and if you miss the hole push it in with your toe.

Chris McLean

22nd June 2006, 17:24

The sai could have been used to lift bails of hay. An ancient hayfork.

CEB

22nd June 2006, 19:14

:D
That would suck and is about as practical as using them as corn planters. Ha Ha Ha!

If you want to lift bails then you need hooks not straight prongs. If you are going to lift loose hay/straw then you need a lot longer handles.

I'm a farm boy from Illinois.

Hay hook
http://www.thesustainablevillage.com/products/product_images/FR/FR10235.jpg

Hay fork
http://www.hardwareworld.com/files/pi/lQ/R/7OAK.jpg

Texasmic

22nd June 2006, 19:42

CEB

22nd June 2006, 19:54

Oh my God! HA HA HA HA! That is funny!

Harry Cook

22nd June 2006, 20:40

If anyone is in Leeds (England) please visit the Royal Armouries. In the Chinese section you will find a sai, described as a 'parrying weapon'. It was a weapon, not a hay fork. There are accounts of people training with sai in the 19th century and I have an unpublished 19th century drawing of a man wielding a sai. This will appear in a book I am doing at the moment.
As Phil Snewin pointed out, most of the weapons taught in Okinawan kobujutsu can be found in one form or another in China.
Nice to see you here Phil, by the way.
Harry Cook

Chris McLean

22nd June 2006, 21:43

CEB

I bet chop sticks dont seem practical to a corn fed country boy either hahahhahahaa

TheBadger

23rd June 2006, 17:15

Everything I have ever read points to the Sai being the exception to the rule as far as Okinawan weapons. It was a police weapon/badge. Am I wrong on this?

Texasmic

23rd June 2006, 18:20

Everything I have ever read points to the Sai being the exception to the rule as far as Okinawan weapons. It was a police weapon/badge. Am I wrong on this?
That is what I have heard too. It is a weapon and only a weapon and it served as a weapon and a badge. Not so much "police" as we think of them today, but more along the lines of Ryukyu Bushi.

If your in trouble look for the dude with the sai in his belt for help!

Mitch Saret

23rd June 2006, 18:20

I could have sworn the sai fight betwen Nefertiri and Aksunamun in The Mummy Returns was as factual as you can get! :rolleyes:

Texasmic

23rd June 2006, 18:46

I could have sworn the sai fight betwen Nefertiri and Aksunamun in The Mummy Returns was as factual as you can get! :rolleyes:
Traditional Egyptian Sai Chick fight.
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3886/saifight1sz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

TimJurgens

29th June 2006, 09:48

Martial arts teachers world wide seem to have a common problem. They don't know how to say "I don't know". Maybe because we all want to be like the blind old dude from Kung-fu or something it forces people to come up with answers and "facts" that are not subject to the same scrutinity as actual historical assertations.

Historians check and cross check their facts before publishing. Martial Artisist seem to be more willing to cut academic corners.

My teachers here have stressed that the Sai came from China as a weapon. No farm implement like a Sai was around. Rice is not grown here now and has not been grown here in any great quantitiy since they figured out that mainland rice was better. Sugar cane is the main farm crop, with pineapple, shiquasa, goya, and Mikan as other main staples. I have a Mango tree in my yard and these are common as well.

My teachers have also pushed the idea that farmers farm and guards or aristocrats charged with defense of the kingdom(s) train for fighting. If this forum does only one thing and that one thing is to slow down the propagation of unchecked martial arts inaccuracies then it is a good day for the forum indeed.

Texasmic

29th June 2006, 13:34