PDA

View Full Version : Kuji-in / Kuji kiri



hanshi.laohu
8th November 2002, 22:47
Hello evrybody !!!

I want to tell us about Kuji no kiri ... looking what I've red in books and sites of ninjutsu, it's a succession of fingers and hand cuts ! Thanks to this, ninjas could improve there spirit energy and could do lot of "magics" jutsus !!! There are nine fingers and hand cuts, and eighty-one possibility of successions !!!
I find it interesting, and I want to know more about kuji kiri ... what are these nine cuts, what are this "magics jutsus", and all informations you can bring me about this topic ....

Thank you all, and sorry again for the bad english ... :)

BigJon
9th November 2002, 04:56
Well, not only ninjas used the kuji-in. In Kukishin ryu, there are some kuji used in staff forms. Kukishin ryu was developed by samurai families. -It has to do with the Mikkyo sect of buddhism as well.
Jon Gillespie

hanshi.laohu
10th November 2002, 12:41
Thanks a lot Richard !!!

Your message have helped me a lot. Although your message is a little hard for me because with all this oriental word in a text in english, I don't understand all, I think I've understood what you've tried to say !!
And thanks an other once !

Robert Meier
10th November 2002, 20:43
Komban-wa,

I just try to understand something about Tibetien Buddhism after I discovered that the one Yoga system isn´t meant for me. The appartement they practiced that was a bit too clean for me to say the least. But that doesn´t nessecarily mean that this was the last time I tried Yoga. Anyway it´s good for the back. But the music from India in the background was almost as terrible the other way around as Eddi Sensee´s on "his" webside.

Aumhh, just cant´t hold back that joke: I asked where the socalled "Shambala" is after reading about it in that flyer.
Hehe ... nice try Frank Farmer ... o.k.

Anybody any inputs about Shambala. I think that´s what they try to practice there. It´s not necessaryly ONLY about TIBETIAN Buddhism, is it. I feel pained because of the homework. Still about fifty pages of difficult English text untill assatte. The seminar is about "taming the mind" if I got that right. And they say something about "cutting spiritual materialism" (maybe title of a book) and that it´s probably rediculous at least to know how much milk and sugar to take in your coffee. That´s depressing as well. Even Nirvana and Samsara might not be properly explained by listening to the music of that rocker or the film in the cinema. Annybody any inputs about Satori and Nirvana. Please only from experience because I´m not willing to discuss whose Ego (English) is better or worse than mine. That might be like hairsplitting I guess.
At least the text includes some cool jokes, so for example that one more ball of icecream isn´t nessessarily what makes one happy. I felt touched in my privacy because I read the text just when I finished about half of the container of icecream I enjoyed in the café of that cinema where Brad Pitt once watched his film called "seven years in Tibet" or something. And I wonder if they don´t have such good cinemas in the States or where he comes from.

What did Shojin say. Mudra and stuff.
I remember me as a kid when a photograph took a photo of me and for good posing I touched my ringfinger with the thumb and felt some energy inside me while looking like watching inside. o.k. the fingernails were a bit dirty but that shouldn´t matter I think.

Could somebody explain a bit about that one. Often you can see that one on Jesus-pictures and I read something about that it means "no fear". But I remember also reading about that in the context of Tara.
but strangely enough it was not Tanemura Soke´s Tara in Ireland where I spend impressive vacation with school; (not in Tara yet, so where is it please) but it was a green Sculpture, maybe a Buddhist sculpture I found probably somewhere in the internet.

But pointing and middle-finger where not so absolutely straight to say the least and I wonder if it´s o.k. when the little finger touches the ring-finger. Is that prober English .... I hope so but that´s not much.

Yesterday was cool, I watched a Jewish Synagogue (sp?) and discovered that in the left first row there was no reservation as in all the other first row. I thought, funny ... like more than a decade ago when I tried to teach about Jesus and all that youngsters preferred to take a seat in the last row instead of the first one. So I felt quite comfortable to take this very special seat in the first row. Annyway I don´t know right know where I lost my glassed, so that was a good choice. But will not belive me what happened. An elder lady and a man took a seat beside me and all those people seemed to know her; only I had no idea and though if as a gentleman I should exchange the seat with her but then thought "No, that would be too much ... "

After a while, probably after asking if that´s true, she introduced herself personally by whispering almost into my ear that she is the Shichô (sorry can´t find my English dictionary so I use the small japanese one) of my City. I did hide a smile and asked if as a kind of public employee I had to know her. Don´t know if she got that joke; however she said I probably should. I asked if I should take an other seat because it seemed that they forgot the reservation sheed of paper for that ones but she denied and almost took my arm like saying: "Jesus, be quiet ... you only make it worse."
Too bad she´s a generation or two too old for me ...

But actually I was very surprised how political such a church-setting might be. I have no words for that and an important person below looked strangely on the Tai Kai pics of NY(C) in ´96 which I hold under the Jesus (Kom)plott book he was staring to. He didn´t ask to watch so I didn´t hand it to him.
I critizised him less than one percent they did inside there all the time and only said - probably I was not even cynical that way - that it´s not fair that I used to try to protect EL AL and Akir all those Saturdays but that I was not allowed to pray there two years ago for peace when some idiots made some bombing over there.
So he asked me when I came there and I told him maybe at the weekend and that next time I should come on Fridays.
Hmm, wondering if I should do that; nothing againgst this bathin-cap I used to wear when I was in Tunesia as a kid in vacation at such a place.

Hmmm, but I have a great offer to stay in a big appartement in Marocco from my Mum´s friend whose friend is probably going to become a General in the future.
She sais that there are real people who make real predictions for free out of some bones there. As well as in Marakesh. Is this also about Shamanism or do I do a mistake here. Is that real ... ?
Sounds interesting ...

What did I want to say ?

Ahh ..., I have heard about nine stages to calm the mind or something. Is that comparable with the three times three stages mentioned in ... where was it ... Hayes Senseis books ?

And what would come after that? The prediction stuff or what?
To say the truth, I´m very confused and that sounds all pretty strange to me.

And I´m a bit pained about what that guy in Marrakesh said what will happen to my Mums friend (not boy-friend). He seemed to say the truth regarding the kids she got ( or didn´t the one time ). The problem is big health-problems after she´ll be fifty, as she told us with a cigarette in her hand. I just wonder what to do (now) against that not so great thing and if one shouldn´t change that a bit ...

o.k. to much fantasy-stuff.

Kind regards

looking forward to your reply,


RM :(

Swinger
11th November 2002, 02:47
Whatever Robert is on I want to drop some man.

paolo_italy
11th November 2002, 13:59
up, rob!

:laugh:

Doug Tweedy
11th November 2002, 18:05
I have read (or tried to read) a lot of Robert's responses in the past. My question to other e-budoists is this:

Is it my imagination, or does he seem to include portions or updates to various stories, without anybody on this board knowing ANYTHING about the people, places or stories he is refering to?

I usually find my self scrolling quickly thru his post and going to the next one. The ACAMAC (sp?) guys post was like a car wreck. It was horrible but you still found yourself looking. Robert seems like a very friendly and nice guy, but his posts are a bit rambling, as far as SUBJECT matter goes. Poor English is no problem, I can work around that, but the subjects seem like they are just falling from the sky in random order.

Is it just me?

Doug

Robert Meier
11th November 2002, 23:34
Koban wa. Oh, I mean Ohio. Gomen Desu, neh.

Thanks Doug Tweedy. Alligato(o)u

Your very right, there is a psychological doctor who sais so as well. A collegue thinks so as well. It´s all a bit hard or taff (sp?)

I so much distrust people and the doctor mentioned above that I even prefer not to tell him about the great bottle of wine I had to a steak weeks ago. I hope at least Paolo from Italy could understand me. It was really a good wine, not such a cheap one that makes you too blind. But a french one ...
The doctor sais that if I won´t stop drinking altogether, he will arrest me in hospital again. But I disagree. No, I will not sign this sheet of paper again. Never ... I´d prefer to climb the most highest mountain of japan for the second time before I´ll sign annything from this chemical assistent again. Hontou ni.

However one thing I am really interested in.
What is the meaning of ACAMAC. I really don´t know that.

BTW I "invented" a strange personal Mantra in hospital:
It was: Retire, retire, retire, retire ... my warm bed, my warm bed, my warm bed, my warm bed."

OK, only for two years in two years, abouto ... Oh oh, sorry was posted twice. And hope that time no monkey business and table dance stuff. thxforthehintben.

oyasumi.



:smilejapa

Doug Tweedy
12th November 2002, 18:14
To keep it simple,

I think Robert said it best...

Doug

Tenchi
26th August 2003, 11:58
Does anybody have any knowledge on Kuji-Kuri Ninjustsu Ryu cause ive read a little on it and would like some reliable information? Appreciate any help

BigJon
26th August 2003, 14:01
Post should be titled "Legend AND Myth",

If I remember right, its just another Western perversion of something resembling a Japanese art... Ill keep looking though.

Snowtiger
26th August 2003, 14:11
Originally posted by Tenchi
cause ive read a little on it

What exactly have you heard/read about it?

Joshua Lerner
26th August 2003, 15:27
I'm guessing that Tenchi read about a "Kuji-kiri Ninjutsu Ryu" in the book "The Ninja" by Eric Van Lustbader, which is a work of fiction (albeit a well-researched one for a martial arts thriller from the early 80's). The hero of the book also goes to study the Katori Shinto Ryu, which is portrayed (inaccurately) as a ninjutsu ryu.

I think he got most of his information from Donn Draeger's "Classical Bujutsu", for a number of reasons -

- in the ninjutsu section of Draeger's book, it mentions the Katori Shinto ryu as the first tradition to develop its own ninjutsu tradition. There weren't too many other resources in the early 80's where he could have gotten that information from.

- it also mentions the kuji kiri in that section.

- there is a picture in the ninjutsu section of the book with the caption "crest of the Koga ninjutsu ryu." The picture matches a description in "The Ninja" of a symbol drawn on the door of a ninjutsu dojo.

I reread parts of "The Ninja" on vacation recently - I hadn't read it in many years. The description of the symbol on the door stood out in my mind for some reason. When I got back home I was leafing through "Classical Bujutsu" and there it was.

Hope this helps.

Moko
26th August 2003, 15:53
about Kuji Kuri but my step dad cooks up a mean chicken curry.

Snowtiger
26th August 2003, 16:08
Originally posted by Joshua Lerner
- in the ninjutsu section of Draeger's book, it mentions the Katori Shinto ryu as the first tradition to develop its own ninjutsu tradition. There weren't too many other resources in the early 80's where he could have gotten that information from.

Ummm.. No. Actually Draeger makes it quite clear that the ninjutsu methods of TSKS ryu are a form of "anti-ninjutsu", i.e. methods deviced to work against ninja tactics of other schools. I guess he knew well enough about TSKS ryu, as he did have Menkyo Kaiden in it.


it also mentions the kuji kiri in that section

Kuji kiri was a method commonly used by several non-ninja schools. See The Deity And The Sword for one example.

Joshua Lerner
26th August 2003, 16:33
Ummm.. No. Actually Draeger makes it quite clear that the ninjutsu methods of TSKS ryu are a form of "anti-ninjutsu", i.e. methods deviced to work against ninja tactics of other schools. I guess he knew well enough about TSKS ryu, as he did have Menkyo Kaiden in it.

"Not all ryu found it necessary to formalize a ninjutsu tradition of their own. On the basis of historical evidence, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu was the first to do so." Classical Bujutsu, page 85.

There is nothing in "Classical Bujutsu" that suggests that the TSKSR was practicing ninjutsu to guard against it. I can type in the entire chapter, if you like. It may say that in other sources, but not in this book, and I think Mr. Lustbader only used this book as a reference.

In any case, I'm not making any statements about history or what real ninjutsu is or was; I'm only talking about the possible source for claims of a "Kuji-kiri Ninjutsu Ryu." I am merely stating that Mr. Lustbader probably created the idea, along with several others such as the idea that TSKSR is a ninjutsu school, after reading (and taking poetic license with) "Classical Bujutsu."

Addendum: I just did an internet search and found someone teaching Kuji Kiri Ninjutsu (http://www.resource-media.com/john2/kuji_kiri_ninjitsu_.html) :


Soke Carr has devised the Kuji Kiri Ninjitsu system to help martial artist realize they should not limit themselves to one style, rather to study as many styles so they may be true warriors, should the need arise.

At least he's admitting he made it up.

Snowtiger
26th August 2003, 19:49
Originally posted by Joshua Lerner
"On the basis of historical evidence..." [Draeger]

This is an often used phrase in the book. It simply means that they have the makimono (scrolls) to prove it, while others don't (or choose not to let researchers examine them).


There is nothing in "Classical Bujutsu" that suggests that the TSKSR was practicing ninjutsu to guard against it. I can type in the entire chapter, if you like. It may say that in other sources, but not in this book

Yes, now that I checked it out from my bookshelf, you're right. I replied earlier without checking it from the book and it must've been in some other source(s).

poryu
26th August 2003, 20:25
Originally posted by Snowtiger
I guess he knew well enough about TSKS ryu, as he did have Menkyo Kaiden in it.



Sorry but in the Katori Shinto Ryu there is no such thing as Menkyo kaiden. They use different names for there rankings

Draeger did not achieve menkyo kaiden or the equivalent in the school he recieved a much lower ranking

Snowtiger
27th August 2003, 06:18
Originally posted by poryu
Draeger did not achieve menkyo kaiden or the equivalent in the school he recieved a much lower ranking

Oh, yes. My bad. I read something quickly and it said "menkyo holder" instead of "menkyo kaiden" now that I re-read it. :)

Snowtiger
27th August 2003, 18:37
Now that we were talking about kuji kiri, here's an excellent article:
http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html

Tenchi
28th August 2003, 10:44
Thank you for help... i have come to the conclusion that it is just a western perversion of something resembling a japanese art as said by Mr Gilespie...... and that article on mandra is very good thank you all for your help


Tom Lello

JimGould
29th August 2003, 05:18
I think it depends of whether you are referring to the Dragon Ball Z type ;) or not.

If there is anyone here as old as me do you remember a series from the UK called 'The Way Of The Warrior' narrated by Dennis Waterman (him off minder and the Sweeney) ?

I have the whole series on tape at home and in one episode it quite clearly shows the head of Katori Shinto Ryu demonstrating Kuji-In with his hands and then a form of Kuji-Kiri with a patient in his surgery.

Fake or real? (you can only answer this if you have seen the program of course).

Jim_Jude
29th August 2003, 18:21
The Mudra that you most often see have root that are thousands of years old, & much easier to track than the Ninja, it would seem. The Mudra come from the spiritual practices the Ninja adhered to, which came from China & to there from India. Mudra are abundant in the Hindu & Yoga meditative traditions, but of course, to see if they work or not, you'd have to train with them for a period of time... wow, sounds familiar, huh?

Tamdhu
29th August 2003, 20:55
Originally posted by Moko
about Kuji Kuri but my step dad cooks up a mean chicken curry.

This reminds me of an old room-mate and chum who used to whip up big buckets of a specialty we liked to call 'Kuru Rice', upon which he would sustain himself for weeks at a time for mere pennies.

The dish itself had a somewhat bloody and brainlike look to it, consisting largely of rice and ketchup or tomato sauce or some such what. 'Kuru' is a disease that headhunters get after eating the brains of their enemies.

Hey now!

Let's eat!

jere279
18th November 2003, 03:38
Hello I was wondering if someone knew any indepth information about the kuji in and/or the kuji kiri. I have done my homework and looked up the meaning and the defenitions but my real question would be has someone here ever seen the kuji in or the kuji kiri in action before. If so did anything happen?

For those who have no clue what the kuji in and the kuji kiri are, visit this site real good info.
http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/kujiin.html

Tamdhu
18th November 2003, 17:17
I see kuji performed at the beginning of almost every class, after which amazing feats of training take place.

Seek out some training yourself, and ask these questions of real live instructors. If you're mainly just interested in reading about it, then I'd suggest reading Essence of Ninjutsu by Masaaki Hatsumi and the entire series of books by Stephen Hayes.

MakotoDojo
18th November 2003, 18:27
Ku no Ji is taught in my Dojo about every class, all my kyu grades understand it and do it. It is the true secret to power.

doraemon
18th November 2003, 19:03
Nice Site.

Sometimes I feel like teaching this stuff before people know how to use their taijutsu effectively is like putting down the icing and then adding the cake.

The principles behind the subject matter are really important to know. But more from a perspective of dealing with life and it's obstacles.

Nice Site though. :)

MakotoDojo
18th November 2003, 20:35
without ku no ji, your your taijutsu will not be very good...

kimq
18th November 2003, 21:46
Originally posted by MakotoDojo
without ku no ji, your your taijutsu will not be very good...

I thought that's what I bought my outdoor tabi off the internet for indoor training was for! :D

Tamdhu
18th November 2003, 22:05
without ku no ji, your your taijutsu will not be very good...



Too true. You wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

doraemon
18th November 2003, 22:11
without ku no ji, your your taijutsu will not be very good...

What process can help with your your grammar?

John Lindsey
18th November 2003, 22:40
Jeremie,

You are not going to get more information on this subject because very little of it is taught, even in the X kans. I hope your interest is only for research, and not for actually use, since you will be just wasting time by trying to copy what you find on the internet..

Moko
19th November 2003, 00:21
Kuji rocks! It is the source to all power. All mammals can do Kuji.
Also don't wash your belt a your training experiences and sparring victories on embued in your belt. Keep it near you if you get in a fight or put it on fast.

Unwashed belts and Kuji. can't beleive I'm giving away so many powerful secrets to date. I should start a website with all my secrets on it.

Oni
19th November 2003, 02:59
Originally posted by Moko


Unwashed belts and Kuji. can't beleive I'm giving away so many powerful secrets to date. I should start a website with all my secrets on it.

My last belt actual had a tag on it that said not to wash it! ;) Your secrets out Robert!

JimGould
19th November 2003, 05:29
Thanks for the link to my site lol :D

Of course, we should remember that Kuji-In and Kuji-Kiri are not really Ninjutsu arts but are Samurai arts. I doubt you will find many people who teach or understand it well and we can sit back and wait for the flame war LOL.

The info on my web site is really basic and only shows a few 'popularised' hand postures (out of 73?) and is just there to spark some interest in the subject and can be found in many books.

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 06:28
hahaha..

Laughing with everyone :)

However my Joke was missed!:(

It was told to me back in 1997 I think by Kevin Schneider. He said Soke said the secret to taijutsu was ku no ji. Then went on to explain the shape / Ku no ji in hiragana was found in correct body
\
structure look for it in the bend of your arms in kamae, your legs
shuto uke omote gyaku etc.. You keep looking for where else it shows up.

that just well may be a kuden! :)

John Lindsey
19th November 2003, 07:07
http://www.resource-media.com/john2/ninjitsu.html

This guy has a kuji kiri ninjitsu system. He must be the real deal eh?

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 07:18
it didn't come out so here is a pic of what I mean...

http://www.genbukanohio.org/kunoji.jpg

doraemon
19th November 2003, 07:34
I prefer fu no ji. :)

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 07:44
Originally posted by doraemon
I prefer fu no ji. :)

huh?

http://www.genbukanohio.org/fu.gif

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 07:48
I'll bet you mean F.U. no ji

http://www.sharemation.com/~middlefinger/images/cf2image.gif

doraemon
19th November 2003, 10:42
Well, Rick, I didn't mean that.

But it's good to know that you think that I might. :)

I like the sinuous lines that flow within the space of the "character" as if connected to a "center".

Not that it could, or would be used in a stance, but that it reminds me of the power generation that could make what we do work. :)
Dynamics, so to speak.

4 strokes all with changes in direction, all generally returning to the center.

This was just an original thought on my part.

No finger usage at all...except on the keyboard. :)

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 11:03
LOL!
Ahhh...

Gotcha, neat idea as well.

Tamdhu
19th November 2003, 17:45
However my Joke was missed

How could you miss my not missing your joke?

Perhaps I was too obscure. Maybe I should have said 'You wouldn't have a leg bent at the proper hiragana-character-like angle to stand on'.

Next time!

MakotoDojo
19th November 2003, 19:41
No I seen that. I should have said missed by allbut one :)

Anyway. It was late/early whatever.. :)

How about let's talk about proper application of chu shi ken?

Tamdhu
19th November 2003, 20:59
chu shinken?

Sword kissing?

Yikes!

Oh. shi ken.

Sorry.

; )

jere279
20th November 2003, 01:21
Well my question was not really answerd but thanks anyways. And for all of you with your great jokes thanks for staying on topic. Oh and Jim your site is great...keep up the good work!

DWeidman
20th November 2003, 01:46
Originally posted by jere279
Well my question was not really answerd but thanks anyways...

What, exactly, are you looking for? Stories of people muttering something under their breath, a finger gesture, then vanishing into thin air? Magic like that?

The above is an honest question - is that the kind of response you were looking for?

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

John Lindsey
20th November 2003, 01:52
Jeremie (please sign your last name),

What we are trying to say is that if you intend to learn kuji to USE it, give it up now. It is like trying to drive a car with no gas in it. Sure, it is fun to go thru the finger weaving, but why waste your time?

jere279
20th November 2003, 03:09
All I really wanted to know was the opinions on if the kuji ins and the kuji kiri is absolute B/S or if there is a small size of thruth in it. Of course I dont intend to use or practice it or try to learn it( I dont know where you got that idea) im just curious to if anyone here belive in the "power" of the kuji in and kuji kiri. Oh ant by the way my full name is Jérémie Normandeau for who ever asked.

John Lindsey
20th November 2003, 03:23
Good questions. A Japanese fellow named Takamatsu once said that there are 3 powers for a martial artist:

1. Physical power

2. Mental power

3. Heaven's power

Kuji relates to Heaven's power. If you do not have #'s 1 and 2, then #3 will not be possible. It can also be dangerous if you do not know what you are dealing with. It is like a stranger knocking on your door and you invite them in to stay without knowing for sure who they are.

kage110
20th November 2003, 10:06
All I really wanted to know was the opinions on if the kuji ins and the kuji kiri is absolute B/S or if there is a small size of thruth in it. Of course I dont intend to use or practice it or try to learn it( I dont know where you got that idea) im just curious to if anyone here belive in the "power" of the kuji in and kuji kiri. Oh ant by the way my full name is Jérémie Normandeau for who ever asked.

Jérémie,

As one beginner to another, you are not going to get a definitive answer here. The only people who can say for sure whether the kuji is real or not (in terms of it being able to convey mystical energy) are not on this board and wouldn't answer you anyway. I believe that there is a whole lot of stuff in the world that is not easily explained by modern physics so we can call that stuff 'mystical' or 'spiritual' if you like. I believe there is a whole lot beyond the physical for a human to tap into if they have had the training - but training and experience are the key. If Hatsumi-sensei was to offer me the secrets of the kuji-kiri and give me his whole collection of scrolls it would do me absolutely no good whatsoever as, first of all, I can't read Japanese, and even if I could I wouldn't have the knowledge to be able to understand what was written down.

If you want to get some knowledge of the mystical possibilities read some books about chi kung and the Chinese martial arts and medicine. Many people in the west (and here on the board) are very sceptical about the claims but nobody has 'scientifically' proved anything, one way or the other. From my understanding of the Bujinkan, very, very few people get active training in this stuff and I doubt that there are many people on this board who would claim much expertise in this field.

As to your full name; thanks for telling us but you are still supposed to post your full name on all of your posts on e-budo. Rule number 4 I believe (though I could be wrong).:p

El Guapo-san
20th November 2003, 11:36
If you can't do either gyaku right, know/ feel the difference between Takagi Yoshin and Gyokko techniques or get through one round of randori, then the kuji questions are pretty much a waste of time. Concentrate on the beginning stuff, and other things may make sense later. Or maybe not. But then the question would be different, wouldn't it?

I've seen a few things which fall under the heading of kuden, but they were always in the context of something else. If you don't know the context, well, it's like kage said about having the scrolls.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

jere279
20th November 2003, 12:01
The last few post were the answers I was seeking. Thank you!

naginata
21st November 2003, 17:07
Jeremy, I've done some research, but very VERY little action with the Kuji, as we largely do not use the process in class.
I've always looked at them as being a physical manifestation as a way to achieve a "mind over matter" psychosynaptic kind of effect...i.e. creating a mental action by provoking a physical trigger.
I see them as being very similar to how my Hung Gar Sifu would say, when in times of trouble...or duress, "flex your claws" to make yourself brave and collected like the Tiger.
It's something I do quite often, and I've noticed it does seem to relieve some stress and provide a bit of focus....I would assume the Kuji is something similar...moreso an exercise in active meditation than any sort of "magic."

Then again, I could just be completely wrong, anyone else have any ideas?

Ryan Wineland- York PA Bujinkan Dojo
under Shihan Greg Stough

Moko
22nd November 2003, 01:29
Nice comment. I'm glad that the forum was able to support the preconceptions you had and not present anything different even if it may have been the truth. You're going to be interesting to watch.

silllybillly
24th November 2003, 00:49
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Good questions. A Japanese fellow named Takamatsu once said that there are 3 powers for a martial artist:

1. Physical power

2. Mental power

3. Heaven's power

Kuji relates to Heaven's power. If you do not have #'s 1 and 2, then #3 will not be possible. It can also be dangerous if you do not know what you are dealing with. It is like a stranger knocking on your door and you invite them in to stay without knowing for sure who they are.


Don't we all have numbers one and two already?

What is believed to be the nature of heaven's power?

John Lindsey
24th November 2003, 01:02
Todd,

If you are not trained to develop #1 & 2, then you will not have it. These are the skills that a human being can develop through training. You may have great physical power, but without mental power you will not get very far in budo.

silllybillly
24th November 2003, 01:27
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Todd,

If you are not trained to develop #1 & 2, then you will not have it. These are the skills that a human being can develop through training. You may have great physical power, but without mental power you will not get very far in budo.



It is believed to be your own power then?

The name heavens power, as opposed to mental and physical power, sounded to me as though it was power from another source besides one's self.

So it is of a person's own power?

Maybe mental and physical honed to a level where they are more than the sum of thier parts? So it is only a different name?

John Lindsey
24th November 2003, 01:35
Heaven's power is supposed to be power given to humans, rather than developed by humans. There is also a dark side to the force, if you want to call it that. That is why we should not train with kuji until we have mastered the mental and physical powers, so that we have the judgement to tell the difference.

Sorry if this seems a bit deep, but this is how it was explained to me.

silllybillly
24th November 2003, 01:40
A power given to humans by whom?

Don't worry about being deep, I love deep.

Mike Passow
24th November 2003, 04:24
Given by Hank of course. ;)

Check your Private Messages.

Yours,
Mike

geosync
24th November 2003, 16:55
Rough paraphrase follows.

As Hatsumi sensei says in the Takamatsu DVD, the only/real secret is that there are no secrets.

One of the many thoughts I have when thinking about that statement is that if one is spending their time looking for some hidden power/magic, they may end up missing the real truth.

silllybillly
24th November 2003, 17:07
I want to know what the beliefs are. John says you should not use this method until you are ready. I don't even know the method. I am not interested in trying to use this method now. Right now I am interested in the belief structure. Who is this power believed to be given by? What is the religious view of those who practice this? Is it a part of mikkyo? Does it have any other origins?

kage110
24th November 2003, 17:15
Todd,

You aren't going to get those sorts of answers here as I doubt anybody really knows anyway and if they are they are not likely to tell you. If you really want to know about these things you have to train and train until Hatsumi-sensei (in the Bujinkan) thinks you are ready to be taught it. Other than that you can go out and try and read as many books on esoteric wisdom as possible and you might get a clue as to what it is all about. Don't expect to be able to write to an internet forum and get answers. Part of the thing about getting knowledgeable about a subject is doing the leg work and researching things yourself. You simply will not understand such topics if you get an answer off someone here as you will not have the knowledge to comprehend what you are being told.

Best of luck,

DWeidman
24th November 2003, 19:00
Originally posted by silllybillly
Right now I am interested in the belief structure. Who is this power believed to be given by? What is the religious view of those who practice this? Is it a part of mikkyo? Does it have any other origins?

"But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.' The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do... what?"
-Merovingian

What, exactly, are you "meaning to do" with this information, Todd?

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

silllybillly
24th November 2003, 19:14
"What, exactly, are you "meaning to do" with this information, Todd?"

Just think about it really. Sometimes I like to think about things that are way out there. I am interested in metaphysics- The study of the underlying cause of things. I have read books about different philosophies and such. I just like to think about these things. I especially like to think of how things are the same and different. I don't know how to better explain it right now. It is all kinda like a puzzle to me and I like to see which parts I can fit together.

You know how when you learn something sometimes you get a high of off the revelation. Because you can see how things all fit together.

DWeidman
24th November 2003, 19:28
Originally posted by silllybillly
"What, exactly, are you "meaning to do" with this information, Todd?"

Just think about it really. You know how when you learn something sometimes you get a high of off the revelation.

So you want people - who don't know you from Sam - who have spent years training in this art to give you their hard-earned information so you can get "high" off of the revelation? And your purpose for gathering this information is to "just think about it really"?

Yeah...

:rolleyes:

Whatever... (I seem to be using this word a lot around you, Todd).

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

silllybillly
25th November 2003, 04:53
I cannot in all honestly tell you what I am gonna do with the information because I do not even know what the information is. My above post is my best guess at what I would do with it.

I would like people to give me thier hard earned information.

kage110
25th November 2003, 09:11
I would like people to give me thier hard earned information.

Why do you think they will feel inclined to do just that? Generally people who have spent a lot of time learning about something are happy to pass on their knowledge to genuine seekers of knowledge but you just strike me as someone who interested in gathering 'facts' so that you can impress some other half-wit with your 'knowledge'. If you want people to give you something you have to be prepared to offer something in return. What have you got to offer anyone here?

kirigirisu
25th November 2003, 10:00
Not much, by the looks of things.

silllybillly
25th November 2003, 17:47
a penny for your thoughts?

Rich
25th November 2003, 18:32
Why are people so protective of what they have learnt, or at least think they have learnt?

I am pleased and honoured to count a very high ranking fellow as friend and he has always answered my questions honestly and with as much information as he can. That is a sign of a master IMHO- someone who is secure in themselves, doesnt need to play 'secrets' and who knows that without hard training information is merely a pointer and not an answer.

This is a discussion board and if newbies ask questions then why not just answer them without all of this other stuff- freely and in security of knowing it wont diminish you or your training one iota?

Just my thoughts....

Rich

DWeidman
25th November 2003, 19:07
Originally posted by Rich
Why are people so protective of what they have learnt, or at least think they have learnt?

I am pleased and honoured to count a very high ranking fellow as friend and he has always answered my questions honestly and with as much information as he can.

Common ground.

If he seemed to have a foundation in the art, or didn't come off like such a late-teens twit, I would have no problem discussing it with him. Your friend has a relationship with you, and that is the connection and common ground you have with him that makes him want to help you.

To be honest - I DON'T want to help Todd.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo

silllybillly
25th November 2003, 19:38
What do you mean by a late teens twit?

What would anyone here like me to offer them?

kirigirisu
25th November 2003, 19:39
Originally posted by Rich
This is a discussion board and if newbies ask questions then why not just answer them without all of this other stuff- freely and in security of knowing it wont diminish you or your training one iota?

Just my thoughts....

Rich

It's in the way they pose their question(s).


Originally posted by the other strange fruit (brackets and spelling corrections mine)
give me [your] hard earned information

Whose to say you should be "given" anything just because you ask for it?

There's that whole idea that one learns more in the journey to the "answer" than if someone spoon-feeds it to them in 2-minute MTV-style sound bites.

The fact that young grasshopper's not willing to put the time and/or effort into it by demanding the Cliffs Notes handed to him on a platter sort of sucks out any inkling of "altruism" or desire to "help" him out in most people.

Plus, instant gratification junkies should be messed with at every possible opportunity :D

kirigirisu
25th November 2003, 19:43
Originally posted by silllybillly
What do you mean by a late teens twit?

What would anyone here like me to offer them?

Now you're just trollin' man.

You might find more help here (http://www.budoseek.net).

Be sure to listen to everything "Hardcore Fighter" and "Martial Warrior" and "Tenshin" and the other "Ninjas" have to say.

They are wise indeed.

silllybillly
25th November 2003, 20:31
Originally posted by kirigirisu
Now you're just trollin' man.

You might find more help here (http://www.budoseek.net).

Be sure to listen to everything "Hardcore Fighter" and "Martial Warrior" and "Tenshin" and the other "Ninjas" have to say.

They are wise indeed.



If asking questions is trolling then I am trolling. I can't fix it if I don't know what is broken. I want to know why Dan feels this way about me.

ThinksTooMuch
25th November 2003, 21:03
I would like people to give me their hard earned information


Possibly its the journey and not the destination that’s important?

Well in this case at least...

JimGould
25th November 2003, 21:53
And once again we see why E-Budo (specially the Ninpo section) has such a bad reputation. :rolleyes:

If you don't like what someone asks, don't like the way they ask or plain don't want to answer then just don't reply to a thread. Constantly slagging off people , especially newbies says heaps about YOU not them.

I don't know who Todd is and I don't care. I don't wish to talk about what Todd is asking BUT he has not asked anything wrongly or impolitely so shame on you all (those who are doing the newbie bashing AGAIN).

DWeidman
25th November 2003, 22:24
Originally posted by JimGould
And once again we see why E-Budo (specially the Ninpo section) has such a bad reputation. :rolleyes:

If you don't like what someone asks, don't like the way they ask or plain don't want to answer then just don't reply to a thread. Constantly slagging off people , especially newbies says heaps about YOU not them.

I don't know who Todd is and I don't care. I don't wish to talk about what Todd is asking BUT he has not asked anything wrongly or impolitely so shame on you all (those who are doing the newbie bashing AGAIN).

Jim -

Take a second and do a search for Billly's posts before you grab your soapbox.

It reeks of troll. Or Roach. In the swampest of places.

Newbies with the right attitude and a desire to learn are met with open arms around here.

Anyway...

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Dude.

Rich
25th November 2003, 22:45
Fair enuff although I now fall between the views expressed above and the last one by Jim. Jim's right in the sense that it has been all to common on here to not answer questions and say go talk to your sensei or give other reasons for ignoring what could possibly be an informative and useful thread.

We all know that there is a lot of bad information being disseminated on the X-kans and even senseis have some wrong ideas- my own, a very decent chap, has taught a few things I know to be wrong. I know this not because I'm better than him in any respect but because I discuss things and don't take anything for fact unless it comes from a very high source and/or I have used common sense and my own martial experience to give me reason to doubt.

Best wishes to all

Rich

BTW I know next to nothing about kuji and really dont care at this point in time because I have too much else to worry about including kihon happo, sanshin and my appalling ukemi (which is a hundred times better than when i started all those years ago but needs to be at least a thousand times better than now :)

JimGould
25th November 2003, 22:53
Take a second and do a search for Billly's posts before you grab your soapbox. Well no, I don't want or need to do that. You are clearly missing the point of my post. If you don't like it leave it. Nuff Said.

DWeidman
25th November 2003, 23:04
Originally posted by JimGould
Well no, I don't want or need to do that. You are clearly missing the point of my post. If you don't like it leave it. Nuff Said.

Fair enough.

Your post / opinion is now dismissed entirely.

Carry on.

-Daniel Weidman

silllybillly
25th November 2003, 23:16
Dan private me if you wish to discuss what my problem is and talk about it. Jim and Dan if you wish take a look at my posts again, there are not that many, and tell me what you feel is wrong with what I posted.

I am done with this thread, It was done with me a while ago.

I do not think this thread is going anywhere constructive. If you have a problem with me I guess it would be better for you to private me or ignore me. But I do not know.

Just my opinion take it for what it's worth.

telecino
10th May 2006, 00:13
The Nine Hand Seals Technique and its related teachings have their origins in the Hindu religion where they were initially used by a few groups from the lower castes. These mystical techniques were a means used by the monks to bring the virtues of the spirit into mundane experience. The original form was not as developed as the system we have today. Thus, this historical perspective refers to the origins of the current system, not the modern Nine Hand Seals Technique as it exists today. Buddhism came out of Hinduism, and, with it, the Nine Hand Seals Technique became ever more popular. The original mudras remain the same as those taught in ancient times, but Buddhist mantras were also added to the system to enhance it. The original mantras were in Sanskrit. They are invocations and celebrations of the various Buddhas. The Buddhist movement later traveled to China, where the tradition was passed on to the hermetic and esoteric groups extant there. Boa Pu Zhi, a wise Chinese master, was the first to put the nine hand mudras on paper, in his work published around the 3rd century AC. Eventually, the techniques migrated to Japan, along with esoteric Buddhism, where the mantras were translated into Japanese phonetics.

The modern Kuji-In technique is composed of a ritual process comprising the traditional application of the Buddhist “three secrets” (mudra, mantra, and mandala). The true Kuji-In secret lies within the contemplation of that philosophy which we use to change our attitude about life. The goal of Kuji-In practice is not to acquire strength, control, healing powers, telepathy, etc... These are only side effects of practicing the rituals and focusing a bit on the governing philosophy. Most people learn the technique simply to attain one or more of these powerful side effects. By aiming at such a mundane goal, their limited focus will ultimately result in the attainment of 1/10th of what they could have achieved by practicing Kuji-In to the fullest. The real path of Kuji-In is the quest to know the truth about ourselves. It is a contemplation of higher principles, an application of noble behavior to our daily lives, and it requires the mental ability to perceive knowledge that is not studied, but revealed. Once a revelation occurs, the side effects mentioned earlier will develop rapidly and without effort.

A Kuji-In teacher transmits these techniques according to his own experience of its revelations. Since the technique was transmitted orally to many different groups, by many different masters, the organization of the root knowledge remains the same, but the ritual aspect has changed somewhat over time. Thus, there is no dramatic change in the system, because the true knowledge of Kuji-In is acquired through revelation, and the various ritual techniques inevitably stimulate the mind towards the same goal, which is the revelation of truth. As long as the ritual practice is applied, the side effects eventually manifest. The general public sees the manifestation of these side effects as the most obvious sign of the attainment of mastery and generally (and mistakenly) believes that they are the intent of these practices.

Most importantly, Kuji-in is not limited to martial arts applications. It is before anything else a buddhist ritual of total potential development.

Also, the long mantras used in the japanese tradition are translations of the original sanskrit mantras.

Jason Chambers
10th May 2006, 00:14
Francois:

Please sign your posts with your full name per E-Budo rules...

Robert Meier
10th May 2006, 13:39
A n d :

Thank you ... ! :)

broke13
21st May 2006, 00:35
From what your saying the Nine Hand Seals aid in unlocking the the full potential of the the individual through realization of the potential, something that I'm not arguing. But through the kuji kiri method of meditation that accompanies the hand gestures, clearing mind and focusing on the body would never attain the goal you are mentioning (finding the "truth about ourselves"). Through the kuji kiri exercises, one could only find one's own potential. In order to find the truth about ourselves through ones meditation, the individual would have to focus on the aspects of ones life. But that all relies on what you define as the truth about oneself. If the truth you mentioned is the potential that the individual holds, then I fully fallow what your saying but I'm not sure just as to what truth your are refering to. I have found that only by realizing our limits can we push them beyond normal physical limits. But then again I studied a slightly different art from ninjutsu and am only recently tapping into the knowledge ninjutsu contains. I'm really looking for clarification as to what I have learned with relation to what you are saying.

Baio
21st May 2006, 06:37
"ashura suiken" "阿修羅酔拳" from naruto? i noticed you also posted somewhere else that you're a "master" of this still a big young to even be drinking at 19

telecino
23rd June 2006, 01:56
Ones truth is not explained, but revealed thru contemplation and observation. By taking the time to observer yourself, you will be bound to notice yourself in the limited perception you allready have. By doing a meditative and spiritual technique, you enlarge your perception tools, thus enabling you to perceive even more of yourself in your search for truth, which is what you are.

Kuji-in provoques self-transformation and expands the perception from the point of view of consciousness. The side-effects of which is the integration of your consciousness in your body, enhancing your living experience. This is how kuji-in has you develop your full potential, by enlarging the horizons of this possible potential until you are full revealed to yourself as Spirit, as well as human.

On another note, i am not a master of anyone else but myself, and i do "master" the technique of the "nine hand mudras", in this that i know how to apply the wisdom of self transformation, from the ritual technique to the philosophycal contemplation of the wisdom. Don't hesitate to read on my background (http://www.livemaster.org), and you could imagine that i spent much time in meditation and application of sacred techniques.

Gary Arthur
23rd June 2006, 07:17
Telecino
Just out of interest, where did you learn all this Kuji In techniques. I take it you had a teacher?

Gary Arthur

gmanry
23rd June 2006, 08:23
Whoa, someone can cut and paste...

http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+13303

You MUST be a master...

saru1968
23rd June 2006, 09:57
Whoa, someone can cut and paste...

http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+13303

You MUST be a master...



yeah a debater or something like that..

:-)

telecino
24th June 2006, 15:42
Yes, it is cut'n'paste, since i go on lots of forums to discuss lots of things, including, but not limited on, kuji-in.

Nevertheless, the cut'n'paste is from my book, that i wrote, and i'm the original author of the text you see in this thread's start. :)

william northcote
24th June 2006, 21:39
Yes, it is cut'n'paste, since i go on lots of forums to discuss lots of things, including, but not limited on, kuji-in.

Nevertheless, the cut'n'paste is from my book, that i wrote, and i'm the original author of the text you see in this thread's start. :)

Nothing wrong with self promoting your own book. Can I cut and paste passages from your book and use it as well?

Baio
10th July 2006, 00:49
even though this guy talks about kuji as a joke the first response is horrible

kuji kiri video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1de4TZpGfU&search=ninjutsu)

SCOBYsnacks (1 week ago)
hehehe man you are living in japan you can learn real ninijitsu art just look for dojo man and learn real kuji kiri techniqs ^^ i train real ninjitsu and its awesome http://konigunninjutsu.com/

kennin
10th July 2006, 09:34
Whatcha gonna do about it?
Post information about the X-kan, so all the Naruto warshipping ninjer kiddies show up at decent training?
Maybe... just maybe you would NOT like that to happen. ;)

snake-eyes78
11th July 2006, 01:22
is the konnigun stuff the same as the tew ryu stuff? i saww some sweet video clips on his website!!!!! that tew feller just might be the one true ultimate- grandmaster of all time in the whole universe ever and beyond with his super duer ninja magic skills an back-flips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Sennin One
21st August 2006, 16:27
What is the relationship between Hatsumi and ninpo mikkyo? Does he practice it? Does he teach it, even to his highest students?

kenkyusha
21st August 2006, 18:37
Hello and welcome to E-budo.

Please note that when you joined, you agreed to sign each and every post with your full name. You are much more likely to receive answers to questions by fulfilling this requirement.

Be well,
Jigme

kennin
21st August 2006, 18:42
What is the relationship between Hatsumi and ninpo mikkyo? Does he practice it?
Yes.


Does he teach it,
No.


even to his highest students?
Ask them.

And to answer your next question which will be: "why?":
Ask him!

RC51inJapan
21st August 2006, 22:07
What is the relationship between Hatsumi and ninpo mikkyo? Does he practice it? Does he teach it, even to his highest students?

Why do you care?

As a "westerner", IMO its a matter of theoretical theology.

You can read more about Mikkyo on the web or at the library.

Sennin One
22nd August 2006, 00:25
Sorry about that.





Senin Karl
Over 20 years various martial arts

paradoxbox
22nd August 2006, 00:57
Those were not very helpful responses. I hope in the future, people at ebudo will attempt to be a little more receptive and helpful to people asking genuine questions.

If you don't have something nice to say, keep it to yourself. This board is being overrun by people with rude, abrupt or unhelpful behavior, please stop this.

For some light reading material on mikkyo try here:

This link contains info from some of Stephen Haye's works, and it's not first hand, so take it with a grain of salt
http://www.geocities.com/yowie_26/18.htm

Here's another link, again take the info with a grain of salt, but it may help shed some light.
http://www.boston-ninpo.com/History.htm

saru1968
22nd August 2006, 01:27
Yep, no need to introduce yourself.

Just walk right in without so much as a Hello and fire the questions..


:rolleyes:

Cufaol
22nd August 2006, 01:29
Those were not very helpful responses. I hope in the future, people at ebudo will attempt to be a little more receptive and helpful to people asking genuine questions.

If you don't have something nice to say, keep it to yourself. This board is being overrun by people with rude, abrupt or unhelpful behavior, please stop this.


look at that, I'm not the only one who feels that way. Maybe some of us should try to stop being 'the real stuff' and just train and be nice to everyone. Considering the fact that people here look down on guys like Ashida Kim (which is ofcourse entirely justifiable), I believe the word Irony has recieved an entire new dimension.

thanks for your post and the useful link Paradoxbox! domo.



cheers! C. *i'm gonna regret this...*

George Kohler
22nd August 2006, 01:41
Yep, no need to introduce yourself.

Just walk right in without so much as a Hello and fire the questions..


:rolleyes:
It is not required to introduce yourself here on E-Budo. Anyone can come and ask questions.

But, it is required for everyone to sign with their REAL first and last name.

edg176
22nd August 2006, 06:07
I really don't understand why lately here at E-budo, questions are met with such vituperative comebacks.

paradoxbox
22nd August 2006, 07:56
I agree that this kind of abrupt behavior needs to stop immediately. This is becoming a worse forum because of particular guests who have no tolerance for (new people in particular) asking questions.

This is a martial arts forum. You should treat everyone with respect here. If you would not be so abrupt with your instructor, do not be so abrupt with people in this forum. We are all here to learn and discuss.

In keeping with the original topic and the (former) helpful and welcoming spirit of this forum, here is some more helpful information regarding mikkyo, though the relevence to ninpo is not clearly defined in this link alone.

http://www.mandala.hr/society.html

RC51inJapan
22nd August 2006, 08:59
I really don't understand why lately here at E-budo, questions are met with such vituperative comebacks.

My apologies if I seem uncouth.
My only intentions here are to have open discussion.

I just don't think Mikkyo is important to Taijutsu.
Maybe as a matter of academics, but certainly not a matter of practicality.

Again, don't be alamred it is only my opinion.

saru1968
22nd August 2006, 15:18
It is not required to introduce yourself here on E-Budo. Anyone can come and ask questions.

But, it is required for everyone to sign with their REAL first and last name.

Sorry, George, thought it was polite to do so....



:-)

saru1968
22nd August 2006, 15:21
I agree that this kind of abrupt behavior needs to stop immediately. This is becoming a worse forum because of particular guests who have no tolerance for (new people in particular) asking questions.

This is a martial arts forum. You should treat everyone with respect here. If you would not be so abrupt with your instructor, do not be so abrupt with people in this forum. We are all here to learn and discuss.




Fair enough, can i have some details for making smokebombs then please..

:-)

paolo_italy
22nd August 2006, 19:10
hello all,

I find interesting what's in "Essence of Ninjutsu", when Hatsumi Sensei writes about the story of Takamatsu sick in the mountains (tapeworms, beri beri, etc...).

From what I read, I remember that Takamatsu - who already held Menkyo (manybe Soke-ship, no sources at hand) - was totally unconfident and skeptic with the practice and significance of Kuji, or at least to what he was performed on him (even in an allegoric meaning).

He even learned the prayers by listening to the people taking ritual baths under the waterfall (he didn't know before? was religious practice, at least of that ascetic type, outside his interests?).

So it seems to me that the Kuji practice obtained his interest from outside the art, so to say. Something like a parallel path, like going to Mount Hiei (sp) for Shugendo studies...

What do you think on this? And in this extent, about the concept of "ninpo" mikkyo? Did he bypass the chapter when he studied ninpo :p ?

Ciao,

RC51inJapan
22nd August 2006, 19:37
hello all,

Where are you in Italy?

paolo_italy
22nd August 2006, 21:13
hi,
half of my time in Ravenna and a half between Reggio Emilia and Mantova.

RC51inJapan
23rd August 2006, 13:30
hi,
half of my time in Ravenna and a half between Reggio Emilia and Mantova.

Wow, you're way up there in the civilized version of Italia.
Is there a dojo there? Didn't see one when I searched for one.

paolo_italy
23rd August 2006, 13:43
I sent you a PM, we are way OT! :)

mikep
31st August 2006, 04:45
Fair enough, can i have some details for making smokebombs then please..

:-)

Well, to be fair to the original poster I don't think asking about kuji is the same as asking about smokebombs. A lot of people who first read about ninjutsu learn of kuji and are obviously curious especially if they are involved in spirituality and meditation. If kuji was part of a particular ryu then asking about it is as legitimate a question as asking about a technique from that ryu.

I know your post was just a joke and I'm sorry if I singled you out. That wasn't my intention. However, I don't necessarily think that when someone asks about a mystical aspect of ninjutsu that they're automatically an Ashida Kim type. I've refrained from asking certain questions of the type partly because I'd rather find the resources myself and partly because I don't want to deal with getting jeered at on the boards.

BTW, the smokebomb recipe is in your closet. Using my leet ninja skills I snuck it in there last night.

mikep
31st August 2006, 04:48
What is the relationship between Hatsumi and ninpo mikkyo? Does he practice it? Does he teach it, even to his highest students?

From what I've gathered Hatsumi doesn't teach it to even his highest students. There's kind of a dearth of knowledge about kuji in the Bujinkan in part because a lot of students believe that if Hatsumi isn't teaching it then it must not be important.

George Kohler
31st August 2006, 08:30
There are pictures Hatsumi Sensei doing ketsu-in with his his wife and 14 of his students in the picture. Some of the well known students in the picture were Manaka, Ishizuka, Oguri, Stephen Hayes, Nagato, Kobayashi, Muramatsu and Noguchi. Also, there is one older picture, possibly taken by Arthur Tansley, with Hatsumi Sensei doing kuji-in with Oguri, Ishizuka, Seno and Tanemura Sensei. With all of this in mind, it is most likely that Hatsumi Sensei did teach kuji to senior students in the past. As for now, I have no clue.

edg176
31st August 2006, 08:41
I understand he is close to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Cultural Center.
Source: http://www.skhquest.com/articles/skhbio.asp

My understanding is that the Tibetan practice is, like mikkyo, a vajrayana/esoteric practice.

Makes you wonder right? I would bet that Hatsumi is not giving the whole story here.

RC51inJapan
31st August 2006, 08:42
From what I've gathered Hatsumi doesn't teach it to even his highest students. There's kind of a dearth of knowledge about kuji in the Bujinkan in part because a lot of students believe that if Hatsumi isn't teaching it then it must not be important.

It may prove benificial to some who want to make a connection to it but this can't be quantified and thus a value set. I say this not to be negative, my reasoning stems from the basis that there is alot of symbolism there which can easily be misinterrepreted. Take Taijutsu for example, even if you're the uke receiving the teaching from the GM of your choice you should still make a personal study of it and even then you could be deceived for many reasons. This is why some feel the need for combat or competition I believe the correct word in this instance is "validation".
Persoanlly I feel Zen is much more pratical and relevant to the "Westerner"
I like the idea that there is "focus on meditational practice, personal instruction and personal experience".
Anyway, what hell do I know see my signature for my credentials.

MWDAndy
31st August 2006, 09:52
To see some of the links between the Bujinkan martial arts and mikkyo, just read Hatsumi sensei's book "Advanced Stickfighting". It's littered with references to mikkyo both in the text itself and in many of the illustrations.

paolo_italy
1st September 2006, 08:20
Hatsumi Sensei did teach kuji to senior students in the past. As for now, I have no clue.

up to a couple of years ago, it seems to me he did.
:(

George Kohler
2nd September 2006, 01:32
I just merged all of the kuji threads together.

Jason Chambers
2nd September 2006, 04:03
Seems to me I saw Yamaguchi Gogen doing some ketsu in on a ooooooolllllldddd video tape called The Warrior Within. I was in high school (late 80s) when I saw this.

ganglian25
2nd September 2006, 05:11
I was first of all here for years under a previous id but due to not logging on for ages due to lets just say, stuff........... had to reregister under this id, but anyway to the point.


Based on my own readings, Hatsumi san trains the highest of his students this kind of thing at his discretion, and through those who know is really the only way you'll really know what kuji is. I have read books, like Path Notes by Glen Morris and it seems like that is the case.

I have read other works by Hayes and others but that seems to be the problem, you dont know how much has been altered to keep folks from learning stuff without making the journey.

Mike Reid

budo_magus
2nd September 2006, 19:05
Reverend Jion,

I understand you may be busy, so I won't make this very long.

I've been a student of Francois' for over a year at this point. What he is refering to as kuji-in is a technique he has learned in his studies with esoteric masters, and perosnal research. I've personally had a great deal of success using this method.

It is a technique with many possible applications, but the core of practice has two forms. Invocative technique, and meditative technique.

The invocative technique has several stages, utilizing up to 5 major key factors at a time. Depending on one's ability to focus on each aspect, you can apply more of the items to the technique to bring about a more complete development through this technique.

The aspects of the invocative technique include mudra, mantra, mandala, contemplation of a truth, and a focus on a specific part of the body.

The meditative version of the technique is simply the contemplation of a truth, be it "the universe will take care of me"(trust, self-trust, faith), or perhaps"I am responsible for all that happens to me." These are examples, there are 9 in all, for the Rin, Kyo, Toh, Sha, Kai, Jin, Retsu, Zai, Zen.

I am not sure how your technique varies. Looking at the link you provide in your signature, I think the main difference is your great emphasis on Buddhist teachings. Though, I will admit at this instant I may be mistaken.

Sir, I do not dispute anything you say. You are far more qualified to talk on this subject than I am. If what I describe is not what you are teaching, I do ot say that you are wrong. If teaching something differently than you are is NOT Kuji-In, I will accept this.

I simply wanted to comment on this subject, as one of Francois' students. If the root technique differs in any way, I do not know. I simply wanted to reply so that what he is offering is not quickly shrugged off as another Ashida Kim style scheme. I believe the technique offered by Francois could benefit many people, and I know how simply reading something in a forum could quickly change someone's lifetime bias in one area or another.

Please, take my comments for what they are, background information from a student of Francois'.

Thank you for your time.

Shawn Zemba

telecino
2nd September 2006, 20:40
Hello everyone,

Shawn just informed me that there was some thread discussing about the authenticity of my Kuji-in teachings.

- - -
Let's imagine that are gathered 3 great cooks, one from France, another from Thailand, and one from Brazil. The goal is for them to identify which cook know the right way to prepare chicken. After not so long, there would be 2 possible outcomes:

- They tear each other's head off trying to prove they are right.

OR

- They all agree there are many wonderful ways to prepare chicken, according to each of their cultural background and personal preferences.

Such a meeting would be organized, or course, with chefs of experience, leaving out Ashida’s Burger Stand and the likes.
- - -

Now, how come it is not possible for spiritualists to acknowledge the possible variations of a certain technique according to their experience or life path. Over thousands of years, each new variation in kuji-in was self-proclaimed as the TRUE way, because it actually worked. The Tendaï know their way is the good one, since it does bring the spiritual results it is said to bring. But Chinese Traditional Medicine is certain to hold the TRUE way, learned from the sage Bao Pu Zhi more than a thousand years before the tendaï even existed. Meanwhile, the yogis practice the nine seals and nine mantras since the age of the Vedas, many thousands of years before Buddhism came to China.

Kuji-in is a tools. It can be used by many people, for many applications, each being a good way. Yet, each way is a good way only when the user also travels a path of self-development, such as martial arts, Tendaï or Shinto, Buddhism, Siddha…

I hope this does answer a few questions. And as for my credibility, I’ll let my students establish it along the years. We recognize a tree from its fruits. If the fruits are rotten, I’ll go get myself a burger at Ashida’s.

As for the reason why I post along on the web is… I know how to . I search on google what people are saying about kuji-in, and I answer to the best of my ability. I know now some see it as a quest for acknowledgment , while others say it is a question of marketing… I guess only time will tell. From my point of view, I see it as a possibility to share what I am good at, with people filled with questions that only a few can answer.

If anyone are interested but feels uncertain about what they could learn from my experience of kuji-in, why don’t they contact me directly?! ( info @ kujiin.com ) and I’ll be certain to answer to the best of my ability; and I will also be the first to recommend other sources if mine does not suite you.

The best to all of you, each on your own path.

Jason Chambers
2nd September 2006, 21:02
- - -
Let's imagine that are gathered 3 great cooks, one from France, another from Thailand, and one from Brazil. The goal is for them to identify which cook know the right way to prepare chicken..

But in the end, the chicken is still chicken. As you know, lots of things taste like chicken, but aren't.

yoj
2nd September 2006, 22:16
But in the end, the chicken is still chicken. As you know, lots of things taste like chicken, but aren't.

I know nothing of the subject, so it's a great time to play devils advocate ;-)

That argument is the underpinning of many discussions in baffling budo, they question the lineage, not the efficacy of a system. The stuff I've read about Glen Morris' taoist teachings came together from a variety of sources and teachings, it's eclectic and western in origin of development, but if it works then it's not false, only if it's history is fabricated to lend authenticity.

Just because something tastes like chicken but isn't from Chucks Chicken Farm, home of the original chicken, doesnt mean it isn't.

What is interesting about such things is that unlike budo, which develops according to the context it's in, a lot of the shamanistic systems report similar results regardless of location.

Ghost Cat
2nd September 2006, 23:56
That argument is the underpinning of many discussions in baffling budo, they question the lineage, not the efficacy of a system.

Ah, but if we are using Japanese terms and discussing things in a Japanese martial arts section, then we kind of expect that things be as they are in Japan and not just someone who started fooling with something in his back yard and decided to put a Japanese spin on thing.

And we really do not know if what is being made up is as effective as the original Japanese for the purpose it was supposed to be used for.

Jason Chambers
3rd September 2006, 02:43
Just because something tastes like chicken but isn't from Chucks Chicken Farm, home of the original chicken, doesnt mean it isn't..

Are fried froglegs from a chicken? No.... but they taste like chicken. :D

George Kohler
3rd September 2006, 08:11
Now, how come it is not possible for spiritualists to acknowledge the possible variations of a certain technique according to their experience or life path.

I don't think anyone said there wasn't any possible variations, but what it sounds like is that you are using a Chinese (or maybe Indian) version of these teachings. If this is the case then why would you use Japanese pronounciations of your variation? If you claim to be teaching a Japanese variation (Kuji-in: a japanese pronounciation of "nine seals") then most people are going to ask you what your history is and who you learned it from. Remember, you're the one that came here claiming to know this subject. BTW, there is a thread here on E-Budo already warning others about you from a fellow Canadian who is also envolved in Shingon. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34964