Air throw

[MarkF]

I have a question which has been eating at me lately, and since it involves aikido, judo, Mifune Kyuzo Sensei, and Tohei Sensei, I thought I would ask it here.

An early student of Tohei Sensei said that, either he had seen this, or Tohei had, or both (I will get the exact statement which prompted me to ask this question, if necessary). This elder student (in Hawaii) had described a throw, done by Mifune S., as an "air throw" or possibly, a "wind throw." Since it was a judoka who did it, but apparently was incorporated into Tohei's syllabus (not sure, but I think so), I thought I would ask here.

Is there a specific koshi waza (It was described thus: "It looked like a judo hip throw, but there was hardly any contact at all." It further stated that "Mifune could read minds and that is what one must do to do this throw succesfully against a resisting uke (this is paraphrased)."

Does anyone know of a throw, specifically a koshiwaza, which would meet the above requirements (I'm assuming the 'reading minds' statement is what it looked like, not what was actually done)?

There has been discussion on this in the judo forum, and there are a group of throws referred to in this way, but none are koshiwaza.

The posts can be found in the Judo Forum in those called "Choke Sweet Spot (I know, enormous thread drift)" and another recently started concerning dangerous techniques.

Jun Akiyama of Aikiweb stated recently, that with a good hip throw, there should be hardly any contact at all.

Thanks to you all in advance.

Mark

[Chuck Clark]

Hi Mark,

I have always heard of Mifune's "airthrow" as being similar to sumi otoshi or uki otoshi except uke's balance is taken so that each leg/foot is pushing upwards equally (instead of mostly one leg) and uke throws themself around the center of gravity because the automatic reaction is to get posture back by broadening the base but due to the balance being on both feet equally both legs thrust strongly causing the fall. The direction of kuzushi is perpendiclular (forward) to the line of uke's feet.

It takes some time to develop the ability to get the weight evenly distributed on both feet but it is a really sweet technique and feels great to fall from it.

Cheers,


[Edited by Chuck Clark on 12-11-2000 at 09:29 AM]

[gavinslater]

HI Mark and Chuck,

The throw you described above sounds like a throw we have called the 'double toe side throw', (sorry cant remember the japanese name). Where uke applies a front strangle, then tori grabs under uke's elbows, as uke takes a step forward tori steps on both of uke's feet, as you start to sacrifice yourself (slightly to the side) tori's insteps rest on the bottom of your feet as you go back you propel uke of the top with your legs. When taking the fall uke feels his legs go out from underneath him, then up.

This can also be done to throw uke on his head by doing the same motion but stamping his feet from out underneath him and pulling on his collar as you move to the side. His head then hits the ground first. I hope this made sense.

I am not sure whether this is the 'Air Throw' but it sounds similar to the one Chuck described.

Regards,

Gavin.

[Chuck Clark]

Originally posted by gavinslater

The throw you described above sounds like a throw we have called the 'double toe side throw', (sorry cant remember the japanese name). Where uke applies a front strangle, then tori grabs under uke's elbows, as uke takes a step forward tori steps on both of uke's feet, as you start to sacrifice yourself (slightly to the side) tori's insteps rest on the bottom of your feet as you go back you propel uke of the top with your legs. When taking the fall uke feels his legs go out from underneath him, then up.

This can also be done to throw uke on his head by doing the same motion but stamping his feet from out underneath him and pulling on his collar as you move to the side. His head then hits the ground first. I hope this made sense.

I am not sure whether this is the 'Air Throw' but it sounds similar to the one Chuck described.


Holy XXXX!!

I must really have lost whatever ability I had to communicate in English! There is absolutely nothing about what I wrote above that sounds to me like what you just described, Gavin.

No standing on uke's feet! Picture an uki otoshi (or sumi otoshi) but instead of having balance mostly on one leg, uke has balance equally on both feet and the legs are pushing up (both at the same time) getting ready to step. Due to the weight being equal though, uke can't decide which one to step with so both fire and uke throws himself straight over (at a right angle to a line drawn across both feet).

I'll see if I can find a picture and put it here. One is worth way more than a lot of words, I hear. Check back later.

Here's photos...
http://www.jiyushinkai.org/ebudo.html

Cheers,

[Edited by Chuck Clark on 12-11-2000 at 04:55 PM]

[MarkF]

Well, my question was answered as I feared it would be; it was sumiotoshi (or ukiotoshi-main difference, if any, is in direction of kuzushi but they are basically the same throw, and are considered to be kukiunage, or air throws.

This threw me because out of an interview, it was said "It was like a judo hip throw, but there was almost no contact (slightly paraphrased)." Another would be tai otoshi (body drop) but only if done as K. Mifune sensei did it, and not the tai otoshi of today.

It's been said that only Mifune could pull off these throws (I include Tohei sensei, but not until it was seen by him), but while researching the Sydney Olympic judo results, I found the winner of the gold in the extra lighweight division of the Men's draw, won with sumiotoshi, ippon.

Thank you, Chuck. I have some video of Mifune doing this throw during an exhibition on the nage no kata. I look forward to aything you could post.

Mark

[gavinslater]

Hey Chuck,

I read your post again and cant for the life of me work out why I wrote about that throw. I think its called 'reading it too fast at work, so it doesn't look like im on the internet all day' :). I understand what you mean now...

Regards,

Gavin.

[Edited by gavinslater on 12-12-2000 at 06:38 AM]

[Chuck Clark]

Hi Mark,

Hope things are okay for you and yours during the crazy season. (or is that all of the time now??)

The airthrow kuzushi is difficult to really get an equal amount of weight on each foot so that both legs thrust at the same time and same amount. Whether it is tewaza or you fit closer and add a hip for a fulcrum doesn't matter.

This one of those things that once you feel it and can set up some drills to practice it, then you're on the road to doing it. Most folks try to use the hands, arms, and shoulders to make kuzushi happen. They should be "connectors" from uke to tori's center of gravity (shita hara). Once we are using our whole body to cause the kuzushi, then we can use the hands to "fine tune" the kime of the connection so that uke's own recovery efforts really cause the kake of the waza.

Safe and Happy Holidays.

[Chuck Clark]

Gavin,

No sweat. I have done the same thing before while trying to do too many things at once. As I get older I'm finding I have to slow down and "just do this one thing right now" and then do the next, etc. I'm amazed at how much I can feel now that I've had to slow down.

As long as we keep practicing, things will go the way they were gonna go anyway!!! Somehow it all works out.

Cheers,

[MarkF]

Hi, Chuck, Gavin, etc.,

Now I'm being told it is simply kukyunage, while I had always thought this was a category of throws, such as sumiotoshi, uki-otoshi. This comes from the horses mouth, or from the student I referred to above somewhere. Still, he did refer to it as "similar to a judo hip throw" and this is what "threw" me.

I agree with your descrption, Chuck. The Kodokan wants to make us believe that after breaking uke's balance to the rear (sumiotoshi), one pulls down with the left and lifts with the right. I think you are dead on concerning shita hara.

The student quoted says though, that it was simply kukyunage (or kukiungage), and there is more than one throw which fits this category, judo or aikido.

So yes, in randori, catch him while making the decision and Mifune may have you doing it fifty times instead of one-hundred, as you are beginning to catch on.:)

Best to you and yours, Chuck. As always, your contributions produce results. Have a great holiday, and please, don't measure your drinks with three fingers vertically.:D

Mark

BTW: Now, I am being informed that it is "kokyunage," and not kukyunage. Kokyu meanting breath, and koki meaning air around us. Is this a pickle or what?:nin:

[Chuck Clark]

Originally posted by MarkF
BTW: Now, I am being informed that it is "kokyunage," and not kukyunage. Kokyu meanting breath, and koki meaning air around us. Is this a pickle or what?

Mark,

There is definitely a technique (more a tactic of kuzushi that can work in several techniques,in my opinion) in the judo lexicon known as "kukinage" or airthrow. This was especially popular in the 30's and 40's. It has to do with the placement of uke's feet in relation to how the kuzushi is affecting uke. Mifune's taiotoshi (every time I've seen him do it on film, etc. has uke's weight on the lead foot which is thrusting while being aggravated by tori's dropping body (read that - center of gravity)

The term kokyu as used lots by aikido folks means something totally different. I always think of a kokyunage as being any waza that is pulled off with really sweet coordination of intent, timing, distance, energy and riai of technique. The term kokyu (breath, respiration) is used to mean something that is seemingly as effortless and natural as breathing.

In my experience...they are two different deals altogether. (However, my ideas about airthrow are learned from my teachers. I have no idea how others may have experienced this term outside the circle of my lineage in budo.) Does anyone else have any input????

Cheers,

[Scott D. Harrington]

About Kukinage, Mifune said,

This is one of my own creations of ideal desire, and is to throw the opponent without touching any part each other. In another word, this is to throw him down splendidly only by mere management of body without touching any part, hand or wrist. At first you catch him by the sleeves in the proper order: push in you body outside of his right or left with the self-defense manner, lowering your balance and giving strength to the lower part of abdomen; throw him down by floating him and breaking his balance in his rear or side corner as if drawing a large circularity.

He then further describes the technique/application.

P.S. If somebody tells me how to load photographs I will include several of Mifune doing this technique(and others for those interested.)

[MarkF]

Hi, Scott,
As to uploading photos, it must be on a website. The rest is easy. Just use [] with the letters img in between, and end it with []with /img. Make sure you get the exact address of the picture by right clicking on it, unless the address is the same as the website.

Very good description of sumiotoshi, that is, I think that is what you are describing.

Chuck,
The student of Tohei used the term kokyo and not kuki. I think the idea is the same, though, but he says he saw Mifune do it. As to translating it, probably both are correct, as Mifune was born doing aikido. Judo came after his second birthday.:D

I'm going to get a definitive answere by writing to Mr. Nonaka.

Mark

[Mike Campagna]

(I think this is related...)

I have seen footage of O'Sensei executing techniques on multiple attackers with no contact. I was told that he was demonstrating Daito-Ryu techniques (don't shoot the messenger).

On that note, as a former student of the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai, I have seen and felt throws that have little or no contact. Seigo Okamoto controls posture and balance with such ease, that you literally throw yourself. And he does this with very little effort. I've never been one to believe that a practitioner can "extend his aiki" like a blast of wind and knock someone over. However, with a committed attacker, and the proper technique - all the work is done for you.

As far as a specific technique for achieving this effect, there is none in the Roppokai. All applications are based on the same basic principles, so theoritically, this could be accomplished with any technique.

It is also worth noting that anytime he through someone in such a way during a seminar, they couldn't help but get up with a smile on their face. You just feel like you've been tricked!

Thanks -

[MarkF]

Hi, Mike,
Thanks for your imput on this question, and that does seem to be the consensus, sumiotoshi, or corner drop (float). I had gone through every floating throw I could think of, but have always come back with that throw, or uki-otoshi (basically the same throw, although it has been altered for practice today, as has tai otoshi, probably another of Mifune's kukinage throws.

I've seem that same footage (or possibly different tape of the same techniques). What was most intersting was in what wasn't addressed, or in "the committed uke." What I saw, short of a great throw by kote gaeshi on an uke attacking from behind, was sheer slight of hand, as even when rerunning in slow motion, I could not pick up any contact at all, and the uke were attacking and going right by him, and "magically" were in the process of completing ukemi.

There is a piece of this on the Internet somewhere.

Mark