PDA

View Full Version : the method of ukemi on concrete



autrelle
11th December 2000, 13:38
for legal reasons, i won't be trying anything that is described in reply to this, but i would like to know how one begins learning to to breakfalls on concrete/hardwood floors. i would like this info from someone who is actually doing it.

truly

Anders Pettersson
11th December 2000, 15:27
Hi Autrelle.

In Shorinji Kempo we usually do ukemi on the floor.
Of course for beginners we sometimes uses mats and if practicing for a longer time on just a specific throw we can use mats. But for Embu competition etc. its done directly on a wooden floor.

You could check out this gif-animation as an example, not very high quality but just to give you an idea (222kB)
http://www.hsd.co.jp/kobouzu/emakiuchi.htm

These images will also give you some idea:
<IMG src="http://www.kitanet.ne.jp/~shorinji/kizan24.JPG"> <IMG src="http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/tech/img/kotenage.jpg">

I will try to write down a description on how we teach/learn the way to do this form ogf ukemi, but it can take a little time, since English is not my native language. :)

Edited the url of one of the pics, due to a update on our webpage.
Gary has already written a description of SK ukemi, so I think that is enough.
/Anders

[Edited by Anders Pettersson on 12-29-2000 at 11:57 AM]

George Hyde
11th December 2000, 15:55
Hi Autrelle,


Originally posted by autrelle
for legal reasons, i won't be trying anything that is described in reply to this

Thanks for the reassurance... :)

As mentioned in the previously doomed thread on the same subject, in Shorinji Kempo we practice almost entirely on hard wood (preferably sprung) floors. There are a few exceptions where the venue (like mine) has permanent mats. This is a definite draw back when my students find themselves required to perform on hardwood for gradings and seminars.

It could be said that there is no difference in the ukemi, so there should be no difference in the practice. However, whilst this is true, the graduation from mat to hardwood is more of a psychological than physical task.

There are a number of ways I approach this, but they all begin with basic 'rolling' ukemi with the student practising under their own steam, so to speak. Graduation from this to hardwood is simply a case of removing the mat and taking things a little more slowly. For the more dynamic (flying) nage ukemi pair work is essential.

(Never had to explain this in writing before, but here goes...)

Start by having your student stand in front of you in a basic preparatory stance (right foot leading), offering both hands, left facing palm down, right palm up. Of course this could be either left or right, but the palm up hand is always the 'leading' hand. You assume the same stance taking firm hold of the other's forearms and they hold yours in the same manner. Then together, you step forward into the opposite stance, they step back and then immediately reverse this drawing your student back towards you counting "ichi". Repeat, increasing the drawing power through, "ni" and throw on "san". In reality, the student will throw themselves, relying on you for support to prevent the head or back from hitting the floor first. Through each step, they should allow the upper body to be drawn forwards and down bending at the waste and feel the trailing leg raise in a straight line towards the ceiling. They must avoid any temptation to jump by allowing their head to fall unhindered outside their leading arm towards the floor. If they do so, they will experience the natural flow of relaxed ukemi working to ensure that the foot of their trailing leg reaches the ground ahead of the rest of their body landing ball-heal fashion.

Once they have the hang of this, they can graduate to a less contrived approach...

Stand facing your student at half arm's distance with your right arm bent at 90 degrees fist uppermost in front of your chest. They grasp your forearm with both hands, their elbows out (so that their forearms are parallel to the floor). It is essential that they maintain tension in their arms and do not allow them to straighten during the exercise. Then, draw their balance towards you so that their weight shifts onto their toes. Stepping back with your left foot, turn through 90 degrees and quickly lower your arm to belt level so that your forearm is parallel to the floor. If they maintain tension in the arms and allow their upper body to be drawn swiftly towards the floor, once again they can rely on you for support and reassurance. The "ichi, ni, san" approach can also be used in this exercise.

In writing this I'm aware that you probably have similar methods for teaching ukemi on mats. In truth, we usually start the above on mats and then move swiftly to hardwood once the student has acquired the correct form.

Anyway - hope this helps.

Later,

akiy
11th December 2000, 19:09
I can't say that I train on hardwood floors, but I've taken breakfalls onto said surfaces (as well as concrete) in the past.

The "regular" aikido breakfall you normally see done at aikido dojo (the slapping kind) work but they tend to make your slapping hand sting. It's not a bad choice if it's either a stinging hand or a split open head, of course.

There are other methods of taking breakfalls that are much softer and are much more "absorbent" than the slapping kind of fall. One of these I learned from a person from Russia who was visiting the first dojo at which I used to train. The other is sometimes done in jujutsu classes as well as in some Yoshinkan places and is sometimes called the "fan" ukemi. In both instances, the "slapping" hand reaches either down (in the first breakfall) or over (in the second) to touch the ground first. The arm then absorbs quite a lot of the fall and the body then softly lands on the ground. Both of these I have done on hardwood floors with much less impact nor "damage" than the normal aikido breakfall.

It's mighty difficult to try to teach how to do this over e-mail, unfortunately. It's best to find someone who is capable of doing this and learn from them directly...

-- Jun Akiyama

autrelle
11th December 2000, 19:51
thanks! you all gave me very good info on the basic method of such ukemi. much appreciated!

truly

Daniel Pokorny
11th December 2000, 20:41
Great advise! I'd just add R-E-L-A-X when being uke and start very slow. It does tend to show you where the corners are in your rolls........

Dan P. - Mongo

Gary Dolce
11th December 2000, 21:10
I'd like to add a couple of more points on rolling on hard surfaces.

First, there is a considerable difference between a concrete surface (no give at all) and a good hardwood floor such as dancers use, which absorbs a lot more of the shock. If you are trying to learn ukemi on a hard surface, make sure you don't try to start out on concrete.

Second, in Shorinji Kempo, it is not just our breakfalls are different in order to accomodate a harder surface. Our forward rolls are also different - at least from my experience working with students who have previously taken aikido or judo. Aikido and judo students I have worked with tend to make contact with the ground only with the leading arm and seem to use the arm primarily to guide the body into the roll. As a result, rolls tend to be very fast with a lot of momentum all the way through. In Shorinji Kempo, we make contact with the ground with both arms and we tend to think about using the arms to absorb some of the shock (I think of them as acting like a leaf spring) and slow us down. The result seems to be less painful mae ukemi on hard surfaces.

This is hard to explain in writing and I apologize if I have mis-represented the idea behind the standard judo/aikido mae ukemi.

I should also mention something I tell every new student when I am teaching them ukemi: Rolls are half technique and half attitude. You can have beautiful technique, but if you are scared you will feel it on a hard surface. The reverse is of course also true.

Mike Collins
12th December 2000, 01:19
Without meaning to be a smart-ass, falling is the easy part, it's the getting up over and over that I find hard. Seriously, gravity does the work, just think of falling as a kind of forward roll, and the surface isn't all that relevant (unless you only or mostly train on concrete, as this is not very bright, concrete is a bad surface for the body, even just standing on it.). But for a few falls, if the ukemi is good, the surface isn't all that important. Wood floors would be very good for the ukemi, but I think I'm a bit too lazy for that kind of punishing training.

M Clarke
13th December 2000, 01:32
I tend to aggree... training on hard surfaces is going to have an accumulative effect on the body over time. You will never fall perfectly every time and if you accidentally slap the ankle on cement you will damage it. But it should be tried occasionally to know what it feels like to fall or roll on cement, gravel, asphelt, etc. In training, our rolls and breakfalls are practice for tripping (or being pushed) in the street. Our method of rolling on mats or floors should not be different.
Regards
Mike

MarkF
14th December 2000, 10:57
This is an observation from the judoka's perspective...

Rolling ukemi are performed similar to "ukemi no kata," and since both sides get a workout, most do it from both sides, generally using the arm as a "push-off" for the other side. The practice doesn't utilize the arms much at all.

There are many instances of ukemi utilizing both arms to help absorb the punishment, as in a standing ukemi, in which one might do a front flip and landing on the back, using both arms at the same time. This can also be done utilizing one side or the other, as well. Again, this can be ukemi no kata, or even a game (why not have fun while your body is taking a beating)?

The so-called "partnered" ukemi is sometimes practiced with the aid of a tori, in which a running attack is made in tori's direction, tori turning away, and uke simply grabbing the dogi (of tori) with one hand, leaping upward as high as one can, and falling on his/her side, with tori providing the protection from damage, so to speak (mutual welfare?) When this becomes routine, most practice the same concept, but instead of grabbing tori, ond leaps high and then breaks their own fall, on the side or back. No one grabs tori's dogi here.

Ukemi, IMO, is foolish to repeat constantly on concrete but it is by no means a bad way of doing ukemi. Falling frontward may be an exception to this. On hard surfaces, taking repeated falls does nothing but injure the body, and the more it is done, the more one is prone later in life. However, when doing so, the fall should be done in "sections," as some boxing announcers call it, and certainly wood would be my choice as well. Concrete is the surface we all train to avoid, but when it does come, the sting from the hand, as Jun said, is far better than a broken head/neck.

Since both judo and aikido break down into the same category of taijutsu, precautions are the same, and after thirty years or so of taking ukemi, even on a tatami, can have lasting injuries (this is often an unknown for the young, but from those doing it for more than a few decades, the advice is sound). This I found out was the reason most teachers dislike doing ukemi repeatedly in every class, be it either taijutsu. This is a comparison to the fifty or one hundred one may take in the course of a class. Teachers don't really stop, but the number dwindles.

As actor/comedian Art Metrano said: "Please! Save-a for the end-a." (He was speaking of applause, but I think he had something there if applied to the last third or quarter of a career in aikido/judo).

Mark