Is this legit Reiki?

[Juseki]

Now I haven't actually had any reiki attunements (not enough money), all I really know about it is what comes from one of my mate's brother. I'm interested in getting an attunement, so I started searching the net to find some information, I happened to come across this site- http://www.oznumberone.net/reiki/reiki.htm

I was hoping that anyone reading this who has had their attunements could tell me whether or not what they are proposing is possible or not, or if they sound legitimate.

Your's sincerely,
Ben Rodgers juseki@hotmail.com

[JimGould]

ahhh the payment issue.. It should have been discussed when you did Level 2 . There seems to be a lot of misinformations about Reiki.

[UKPatrick]

Hi all,

The infamous costs issue in Reiki.

I had a VERY quick look at the site you referd us to, and saw the cost mentioned.

I have seen many sites offering distant attunements, and many site offering very different costs, both for attunements and treatments. In the UK, cost seem to be much lower that those I have seen advertised for US sites. In reality, costs in the UK vary enormously. I paid £95, about $150 US, $285 NZ for level 1. I have since found a Reiki master (who lives about 3 miles away from me)who will attune people for the production of a bottle of wine to be shared between those present.The exchange principle is fully satisfied by this.
I must also confess to a scepticism of web based attunements. There is (for me) no substitute for a face to face training session.
I would also recommend finding a Reiki share group to practice with, as again, I feel there is no substitute for practice with like minded people.

Good luck in finding a suitable teacher

Patrick

[JimGould]

A simple answer to the payment issue (althought I don't want to go into it here as its on many web sites) is:

If I have to travel away from my home town (which I do a lot) I have to pay Petrol, Car useage, Hotel, Venue, Printing costs for mauals, (I could add lost of income from work) etc etc

So I really need to get some of that money back as I am not a rich fella.

For treatment I don't charge but if I did I would have to concider:
Transport, Venue, Reiki Table purchase, The cost of my attunements and lessons so I can offer treatment etc etc and again some people really do need to recover these costs.

There are other costs involved and I don't see why the person getting the treatment shouldn't pay.

[Kimpatsu]

There is no such thing as legitimate Reiki. The whole thing is unscientific. Reikiya themselves dodge the issue of testing. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) Their theories are based on a total lack of scientific understanding. By all means, go get your aura tuned. You don't have an aura, so there's nothing to tune. And I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

[Randall Sexton]

I'm a Reiki guy who also practices other "unscientific" arts. Also have, as of this year, 30 years of western healthcare (RN) experience, including working in medication research. I'm always volunteering do do "energy" work right in front of MDs in the hospital. As for "scientific research" you are, I hope, aware of all the "screw -ups" re "proven" drugs that have to be pulled off the market because they are killing people. Energy is present in cells so it's no big deal.

Did you hear about the two parents killed in a car wreck a couple days ago and their 2 year old who survived? Seems the 2 year old walked across the highway and was found 200 feet away. She made the comment that her parents were dead but, "they came back and helped me across the street!"

Now stuff like this was hard for me to believe until May 2001 when my dad went into cardiac arrest at a doctor's office. He made it after a week in CCU and a week in rehab. I told him he was lucky he had a doctor's appointment and was in the office when it happened. He informed me that he did not have a doctor's appointment and had no intention of seeing the doctor. He ws on the way to the grocery store. However, "these three guys" got into my pickup and made me go to the doctor." The MD told me he was alone when he arrived and collapsed. Must have been angels. Wish I knew more about what I don't know.

By the way, according to the World Health Organization, the USA ranks # 37th in the world in overall terms of health...Cuba, with lot's of alternative health practitioners, beat us!

Here's an article about scientfic research from my website:

Those who know me are aware that I don't care much for formal, empirical research. Why should I? Millions of dollars have been spent by, for example, pharmaceutical companies only to have their products pulled off the market when people started dying after taking the "empirically-proven effective" drug. Maybe it was only effective with lab mice!

I see a big push in the alternative/complementary medicine crowd to do empirical research to prove that their approach is effective. Here's where I have a problem. Traditional Chinese Medicine has been around for thousands of years whereas modern medicine has only been around for a hundred or so. Modern medicine is a very expensive system based on treating people after they are sick, while the Chinese have a very inexpensive system based on keeping people well. Some of the Chinese doctors I know laugh when someone mentions research to prove that their system works. Their research, which has consisted of treating real people, has already proven itself. If it's worked for so long, why do you need a formal study to prove that it works? Effectiveness is the strongest measurement of truth.

Another reason I don't like research is that two different researchers can do identical studies and come up with different results. Here's where the problem lies; the people doing the research have an effect on the results, even in a double-blind study where, for example, no one knows who is getting a placebo or not. The patient knows that he or she is also in a drug study and probably hoping that they are getting the "real" drug. That alone will change the results, as will the consciousness of the researchers.

And a primary reason I dislike research is that insurance companies will pounce on the research touting the effectiveness of a certain modality and only pay for that type treatment because it's "been proven" effective. Keep in mind how effective it may, or may not be. I can see an insurance company telling an acupuncturist that he can only place needles in certain "effective" points or they won't cover the cost of the treatment.

I guess research does keep some people in jobs and for that I should be thankful. In the meantime, if you feel better after a consultation with me, let me know and I'll mark it down somewhere in my "research log."

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
...30 years of western healthcare (RN) experience,
There is no such thing as "western" vs. "eastern" medicine. There's medicine that works, and crackpottery, which doesn't.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
I'm always volunteering do do "energy" work right in front of MDs in the hospital.
And what do they say?

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
As for "scientific research" you are, I hope, aware of all the "screw -ups" re "proven" drugs that have to be pulled off the market because they are killing people.
Logical fallacy of equivocation. Bad drugs on the market does not prove reiki.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Energy is present in cells so it's no big deal.
Typical woo-woo misuse of the word, "energy".

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Did you hear about the two parents killed in a car wreck a couple days ago and their 2 year old who survived? Seems the 2 year old walked across the highway and was found 200 feet away. She made the comment that her parents were dead but, "they came back and helped me across the street!"
Nice ghost story. Anecdotes do not constitute evidence. This incident never occurred.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Now stuff like this was hard for me to believe until May 2001 when my dad went into cardiac arrest at a doctor's office. He made it after a week in CCU and a week in rehab. I told him he was lucky he had a doctor's appointment and was in the office when it happened. He informed me that he did not have a doctor's appointment and had no intention of seeing the doctor. He ws on the way to the grocery store. However, "these three guys" got into my pickup and made me go to the doctor." The MD told me he was alone when he arrived and collapsed. Must have been angels. Wish I knew more about what I don't know.
More anecdotes. And why MUST these people have been "angels"? Are you sure they weren't Men In Black?

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
By the way, according to the World Health Organization, the USA ranks # 37th in the world in overall terms of health...Cuba, with lot's of alternative health practitioners, beat us!
This is a correlation, not a cause. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, another logical fallacy. Cuba is better because the US diet is so poor.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Those who know me are aware that I don't care much for formal, empirical research.
Condemned by your own mouth. No interest in science. OOOkaaayyy...

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
I see a big push in the alternative/complementary medicine crowd to do empirical research to prove that their approach is effective.
No such thing as "alternative" or "complementary" medicine. There's only medicine, which works. As to proving it, the idea is to determine objectively whether it works or not.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Traditional Chinese Medicine has been around for thousands of years whereas modern medicine has only been around for a hundred or so.
Another woo-woo notion: that because TCM has been around a long time, there must be something to it. Well, Xpianity has been around a long time, and there's nothing to that, either. Just because something's been around a long time, does not give it legitimacy.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Modern medicine is a very expensive system based on treating people after they are sick, while the Chinese have a very inexpensive system based on keeping people well.
There is no evidence that TCM works, so this statement is untrue.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Some of the Chinese doctors I know laugh when someone mentions research to prove that their system works. Their research, which has consisted of treating real people, has already proven itself.
No it hasn't. Laughing because you pretend to find the question of effectiveness funny doesn't prove anything, either. Have they conducted proper double-blind tests? If not, they cannot claim anything.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
If it's worked for so long, why do you need a formal study to prove that it works? Effectiveness is the strongest measurement of truth.
It HASN'T "worked for so long". Effectiveness would be a great arbiter, but threre's no evidence. Take a proper double-blind test. What are you afraid of? All this preamble implies you're setting up to dodge being tested.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Another reason I don't like research is that two different researchers can do identical studies and come up with different results.
Sounds like TCM, or Reiki.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Here's where the problem lies; the people doing the research have an effect on the results, even in a double-blind study where, for example, no one knows who is getting a placebo or not.
No, they don't. Not in proper double-blind testing. If the researchers are contaminating the results, then the protocol is flawed.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
The patient knows that he or she is also in a drug study and probably hoping that they are getting the "real" drug. That alone will change the results, as will the consciousness of the researchers.
If the patient doesn't know which they are getting, the placebo effect will not work. or are you saying that the researcher's psychic vibes influence the outcome? If so, that's pure woo-woo gibberish.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
And a primary reason I dislike research is that insurance companies will pounce on the research touting the effectiveness of a certain modality and only pay for that type treatment because it's "been proven" effective.
This is a perculiarly American problem, and not experienced in other countries, such as Canada or the UK. Your rant seems to be opposed to the American healthcare system, rather than the modalities of the treatment employed. Such confusion of what it is you're targeting is often a sign of woolly thinking, which in turn is typical of woo-woos.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
Keep in mind how effective it may, or may not be.
And the only way to determine effectiveness is proper double-blind testing.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
I can see an insurance company telling an acupuncturist that he can only place needles in certain "effective" points or they won't cover the cost of the treatment.
Again, even assuming acupuncture worked, which has never been proven, this is an argument against the healthcare system of the USA, not the treatment involved per se.

Originally posted by Randall Sexton
... In the meantime, if you feel better after a consultation with me, let me know and I'll mark it down somewhere in my "research log."
Again, you are inviting anecdotes, not performing double-blind testing. Now, if you can prove that Reiki works, you can win $1 million. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) What are you waiting for? Go for it! Hello...? Still there...?
Guess not... :rolleyes:

[UKPatrick]

Hi Tony,

I am really surprised that it has taken you so long to get around to this thread, welcome.

A small technical point though, because there is no evidence,(that you will accept) that does not mean a statement is untrue, it is just unproven, as far as the majority of the human race is concerned.

Are you still in Hawaii, or back in Japan yet?

Patrick

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by UKPatrick
I am really surprised that it has taken you so long to get around to this thread, welcome.
Didn't notice it at first, Patrick. I'm here now , though.

Originally posted by UKPatrick
A small technical point though, because there is no evidence,(that you will accept) that does not mean a statement is untrue, it is just unproven, as far as the majority of the human race is concerned.
Very true, but there is such a thing as exculpatory evidence. For example, no one has proven free energy doesn't exist (you can't prove a negative directly), but there is plenty of other evidence: the laws of thermodynamics, the nature of entropy (time's arrow), etc., to suggest that it's a chimera. In the case of Reiki, practitioners should prove that they can do what they claim: heal by touch. This alone would revolutionize our conceptualization of the universe.

Originally posted by UKPatrick
Are you still in Hawaii, or back in Japan yet?
Back in Japan, as of today.

[JimGould]

The problem with Tonys Star Trek Convention web site is that it dosnt know its arse from its elbow and therefor cannot be taken seriously and nor can Tony.
Tony says 'Look at what my Star Trek Convention web site says about Reiki'

and I quote:

A reader sends me this sample of the teachings of a Reiki "master" to whom his wife is devoted, for reasons that are not made evident from this excerpt:


Our planet is governed by a confederation of about 26 alien civilizations, all far more advanced than us. They have bases on earth [sic] and on Ganymede (which they call "Morlen") and other places, but they are so good at stealth technology that we never see them. Up to now, this confederation has protected us against natural and manmade disasters as well as "bad" aliens (the bad ones look like little green men with big eyes, the good ones look like humans).
However, the confederation has decided to stop protecting us in 2004, and after that date all hell will break loose. It starts with a huge earthquake that will make half of Japan disappear into the ocean, a comet will hit us, there will be a devastating nuclear war, etc. Only the "good" people will be saved, and when all is over they will be allowed to join the confederation. By the way, all this is a "military secret of the confederation." So don't tell anyone. They have ways to find out that you did.....


Whats the problem you ask? Well This have diddlesquat to do with Reiki... Zero, Nothing, Nadda.
Tony is the first to say we must have proof and cant accept heresay and yet the very first line is .... A reader sends me this sample of the teachings of ..........
What reader? What Reiki Master? When? Where? Its all made up bolloney.

Tony should stop cutting and pasting and do the research.. I CHALLANGE TONY here and now to DO THE RESEARCH...........

[Kimpatsu]

What on earth are you rabbitting on about, Jim?
You want me to do what kind of research, exactly? I keep asking you to take the test, (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) so we can check out your claims, and you keep ducking the issue. What's the matter? Scared?

[JimGould]

Tony as you fail to read anything that is posted properly which is obvious and you cant talk about anything without those blinkers on then I refuse to take note of any more of your posts until you do.

[Kimpatsu]

Fine, run away, you coward. You know you can't do what you claim, so you get all huffy. Go, on prove to all of us Reiki really works. Agree to be tested. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) We're waiting.

[Randall Sexton]

Something happened. Let me figure out what.

[Randall Sexton]

Tony:

There is no such thing as "western" vs "eastern" medicine. There's medicine that works, and crackpottery, which doesn't.

Randy:

When you make a statement like this you immediately lose all credibility. Check out the National Institutes of Health and the World Health Organization for starters.

Tony:

And what do they say? (Referring to MDs)

Randy:

A very few walk away cause they can’t believe there is anything else out there. Most say, “If it works and helps the patient, go ahead.” I’m not talking just about Reiki, but touch in general, ie, massage & bodywork. Quite a few MDs became clients...let’s see there’s been a Chief of Orthopedic Surgery, 3-4 Internal Medicine docs, couple ER docs, 2 Physical Medicine & Rehab docs, and a GI doc that’s trying to get in now cause he’s fascinated with this crazy stuff.

Tony:

Logical fallacy of equivocation. Bad drugs on the market does not prove reiki.

Randy:

Speak English, I’m not impressed by highbrow language. Bad drugs have nothing to do with Reiki. I’m merely knocking out your pillars of strength that you have in modern science.

Tony:

Typical woo-woo misuse of the word, "energy".

Randy:

There’s all kinds of energy. Read my “Quacks & Skeptics” article at http://www.laughinghara.com/Articles/quackwatch.htm

Tony:

Nice ghost story. Anecdotes do not constitute evidence. This incident never occurred.

Randy:

And you were there? You’re probably right; a cop at the scene probably “coached” the little girl and helped her fabricate this really nice story. I’ve never seen an angel in person, but wonder if it was an angel that pulled my leg up when I was a teenager and was about to step right on top of a Copperhead sitting on the ledge below. Never seen a ghost either but have heard one (as did the 2 adults with me). Also smelled the Cherry pipe tobacco of a ghost doctor whom I had never met in person. Get it, in person! A highway patrolman working security at another hospital saw a woman dressed in pioneer clothes one night. Three others at the same hospital (that I know of) also saw and heard some really strange things. My wife has seen an angel(her dog almost went berserk); damn sure wish I could. Maybe I’ll just conjure one of those suckers up in my imagination!

Tony:

More anecdotes. And why MUST these people have been "angels"? Are you sure they weren't Men In Black?

Randy:

Is this just an adolescent response? What’s wrong with anecdotes...you’re negating a person’s experiences? Trash your own experiences.

Tony:

This is is a correlation, not a cause. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, another logical fallacy. Cuba is better because the US diet is so poor.

Randy:

“Cuba is better cause the US diet is so poor.” You have no experience on the subject. Those “Scientific fellows” came up with this: I didn’t. France was # 1. Do you know about their excellent dietary practices?



Tony:

Condemned by your own mouth. No interest in science. OOOkaaayyy..

Randy:

Not condemned at all. I write “tongue in cheek”cause it really gets to those with your close-minded, even if I see it, it didn’t happen cause it’s outside my frame of reference mentality.” I have an interest in science. I love Western Medicine. I love Eastern Medicine. However, I recognize that both systems have problems and strengths. I work in Western healthcare 5 days a week. Bet you sit at a desk all day. Western healthcare has some damn big problems. I was just reading today about a 20 something girl diagnosed with cancer who went through chemo and had her uterus yanked, only to find out that her diagnosis was incorrect. Remember Duke University in the news a few weeks ago? Hundreds of thousands are killed yearly by our healthcare system. I use Western as well as Eastern healthcare cause I use what works from each. I even walked out of a doctor’s office with a clean bill of health only to pass out and have some nice paramedics get me to the hospital where the ER staff tried to get my blood pressure over 70mm Hg! I didn’t asked for emergency acupuncture, I asked for and got an emergency procedure to stop the bleeding in my stomach caused by Ibuprofen. However, when my tennis elbow was not responding to any Western treatment and the only thing left was to do surgery, I visited the acupuncturist. Zap...the pain’s gone! Now remember, if you don’t believe in this stuff, my arm might start hurting again!

Tony:

No such thing as "alternative" or "complementary" medicine. There's only medicine, which works. As to proving it, the idea is to determine objectively whether it works or not.

Randy:

Again you’re calling a bunch of Western scientists “nuts” cause they are studying “alternative” and “Complementary” medicine. They must be wondering in the dark.

Tony:

Another woo-woo notion: that because TCM has been around a long time, there must be something to it. Well, Xpianity has been around a long time, and there's nothing to that, either. Just because something's been around a long time, does not give it legitimacy.

Randy:

Beg to differ; check out the facts on the popularity of this vodoo medicine. That’s right...there is something to it otherwise it would disappear like the Edsel. According to the Stanford Center for Research in Disease Prevention, almost 70 % of the population are using alternative therapies. We’re searching for something that helps our poor pathetic condition cause it’s not being met. It’s a $27 billion dollar a year sham industry according to you, I’ll bet.

Tony:

There is no evidence that TCM works, so this statement is untrue.

Randy:

Where are you hiding? There’s lot’s of research. Harvard just finished a study showing that acupuncture was effective for coping with the pain of cancer. I guess this also goes back to your previous statement that “alternative” medicine does not exist. It must if Harvard is studying it! Another current study is showing (by brain scans) that a needle inserted into a sham point doesn’t have the same effect/reaction in the brain as a needle in a recognized point. The Dana-Farber Cancer Institute is studying qigong...on and on. There’s also several neuroscientists, I think one is named Yount that are doing research in this area also. The Touch Research Institute in Miami is also churning out scientific studies

Tony:

No it hasn't. Laughing because you pretend to find the question of effectiveness funny doesn't prove anything, either. Have they conducted proper double-blind tests? If not, they cannot claim anything.

Randy:

You still have not caught on yet about the “ineffectiveness” of “double-blind” studies. Can you meditate on this till it soaks in, PLEASE. How many examples do I need to give you? Remember all the drugs pulled off the market after they have “passed” the double-blind studies?

Tony:

It HASN'T "worked for so long". Effectiveness would be a great arbiter, but threre's no evidence. Take a proper double-blind test. What are you afraid of? All this preamble implies you're setting up to dodge being tested.

Randy:

You’re flat out lying here. “Effectiveness is the ONLY measurement of truth.” Again, we take out your feeble attempts at referring back to double-blind studies. As to my dodging anything, my answer is at the end.

Tony:

Sounds like TCM, or Reiki

Randy:

This just didn’t make sense.

Tony:

No, they don't. Not in proper double-blind testing. If the researchers are contaminating the results, then the protocol is flawed.

Randy:

Again we take out the effectiveness of double-blind studies and your argument is shot. Researchers can’t help but “contaminate” the results whether they “intend” to or not.

Tony:

If the patient doesn't know which they are getting, the placebo effect will not work. or are you saying that the researcher's psychic vibes influence the outcome? If so, that's pure woo-woo gibberish.

Randy:

Are you really over 21? Patients have to sign a consent form to participate in studies. They know that they may be getting a placebo or the real thing. They probably all “hope” they are going to get the real thing. Whoopps, this study is null and void before it begins! Explain to me how acupuncture works on poor dumb animals, will you?

Tony:

This is a perculiarly American problem, and not experienced in other countries, such as Canada or the UK. Your rant seems to be opposed to the American healthcare system, rather than the modalities of the treatment employed. Such confusion of what it is you're targeting is often a sign of woolly thinking, which in turn is typical of woo-woos.

Randy:

I’m not ranting. Go back to the post about how I love both Western and Eastern healthcare. I can’t be a woo.woo. But I did once think just like you and laughed at my woo-woo new age friends. Then I just decided to not be a close-minded” fool and just open up and see what might be out there. I’m very much a skeptic and it’s hard to convince me, probably cause I’ve been in Western health for so long. Unlike you, I don’t spend so much time denying, I just “experience” and “say, well maybe I not as smart as I thought I was.”

Tony:

And the only way to determine effectiveness is proper double-blind testing.

Randy:

And since this is probably impossible, what do you propose?

Tony:

Again, even assuming acupuncture worked, which has never been proven, this is an argument against the healthcare system of the USA, not the treatment involved per se.

Randy:

Go back to the acupuncture studies I talked about earlier.

Tony:

Again you are inviting anecdotes, not performing double-blind testing. Now, if you can prove that Reiki works, you can win $1 million. What are you waiting for? Go for it! Hello...? Still there...? Guess not...

Randy:

Continue meditating on those double-blind studies. Guess again, I’ll contact the Amazing Randi and see if there is a way to set up a experiment that will make both of us happy. I don’t need the money but know who to give it to after the IRS gets through with me. Wonder how this could be set up so that once something happens, I won’t hear “Well, it was just a spontaneous healing reaction...happens all the time!

Hello...? Still there? Yep!

Let’s not continue this cause it a waste of my time Just keep checking with Randi to see if we get something worked out. Don’t bore me with your opinion on healthcare since your occupation is a translator and I’ll do the same from my everyday “antedotal” experiences in healthcare.

[ErikH]

All I gotta say is that George Carlin said it better than I.

See #5 (http://www.paperbagreview.com/top5/2002/april/default.asp?topic=carlin)

[Exorcist_Fist]

George has not been in a crack house recently. How oddly refreshing.

[JimGould]

Nice post Randall but I suspect you are beating your head against a wall as Tony only believes what he has been indoctrinated to believe and cant look anything up for himself.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by JimGould
Nice post Randall but I suspect you are beating your head against a wall as Tony only believes what he has been indoctrinated to believe and cant look anything up for himself.
Since when has critical thinking been indoctrination? All I want you to do is show me that you can do what you claim. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) What could be so difficult about that, Jim?

[ErikH]

Should we have a dramatic pause?

Nah!

Some very strange points have been made. If I understand them correctly they consist of:

a) Double-blind studies are bad because some drugs were recalled.
b) Alternative medicine is good because people spent $27 billion dollars on them. In other words, $27 billion can't be all bad.
c) Anecdotal evidence is the only way to fly.

Perhaps Randall Sexton is suggesting that we take up cigarette smoking?

It is widely known that cigarette smoking is bad for your health. Study after study has shown this. Even the tobacco companies admit it. Yet, not every smoker dies of smoking related illnesses. Some die because they walk in front of a moving truck. Some die at 90 due to some other illness. The argument presented suggests perhaps that we should ignore all of that because a few people beat the odds? Or, perhaps some time should be spent in a basic statistics class.

In the United States 48 million people smoke (http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o9912d.htm). In 1995, more than 24 billion packs of cigarettes were sold and more than $49 billion was spent on cigarette purchases (http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=407&sequence=1) in the United States. If I understand the argument correctly then alternative practitioners clearly have it wrong. They should take up smoking because,

a) It's been around a long time.
b) $49 billion is spent annually on it's use whereas only $27 billion is spent on alternative methods.
c) Not everyone who smokes dies of smoking related illnesses, hence, all the evidence is invalid.

I never knew cigarette smoking was so good for you.

Now, a brief story. When I was about 7 years old I saw a werewolf. I kid you not. I ran as fast as I could to Mom and Dad who perhaps decided that I should watch fewer Lon Chaney movies. Even today I remember what that werewolf looked like. Did I see a werewolf? Not a chance.

What does this story prove? Nothing really, other than that as a 7 year old I had an over-active imagination and that my powers of observation were not 100% reliable. So, why would someone see Angels? Maybe they just went to church? Maybe an adult talked the child into it. Of course, one must also ask how come the angels never help 2 year old children out of burning buildings or away from other horrible situations. Maybe they only understand walking through traffic? Maybe as adults we often don't do any better than 7 year olds?

I will agree with Randall Sexton on one point. It is incredibly difficult to prove a practice such as reiki. Maybe people who do reiki achieve an improvement of some sort. If so, what is the real cause of it? Maybe it's the placebo effect? Maybe just being touched in a certain way helps? Is the improvement they achieve better or worse than alternatives? In short, just because you see it working, that doesn't mean it worked. This is why you have studies (particularly double-blind) so that you can know for sure something is doing what you think it's doing.

So, in short, take up smoking because lots of people smoke, ignore studies because a couple of them were wrong, and go with belief. :)

For the record, I'm vehemently anti-smoking.

[JimGould]

A lot of people do smoke because it does them good ie relaxing, destressing etc etc and they don't, as you say, all die from it so mabye in some cases smoking is good for you? ;)

For the record, I'm vehemently anti-smoking too :D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by JimGould
A lot of people do smoke because it does them good ie relaxing, destressing etc etc and they don't, as you say, all die from it so mabye in some cases smoking is good for you?
Jim, that would just prove that sometimes people trade short-term gain for long-term safety. It doesn't really say anything about the health factors of cigarettes.
So, when are you going to take the test? (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

[Gene Williams]

Tony and all,
Does this mean if I take up smoking and do reiki I'll get to see a werewolf? I really would like to see one. There could even be one lurking in this thread. Gene :eek:

[Striking Hand]

The only thing I find sad.

Is that some people think that the Jeff Randi challenges are valid and proof.
I see them just a bit better than lets say the Ashida Kim challenges.

Neither of these Gentlemen is really interested in doing any tests/challenges and loosing any of their money, thus their criteria of the test are bordering on the ridiculous.

Even if you won the 1 mill. from Jeff Randi what does it mean in the larger scale of things.

The medical Boards and HMO won't certify Reiki or anything else as valid option because of a failed magician.

Jeff Randi even admits he only got 1 mill., meaning that if he looses it he has lost a major source of revenue ridiculing others.
Thus his interest is in the challenge is skewed.

He is not conducting a scientic research, but a challenge.

Just my 2 cents worth.

P.S.: I know Tony will rip this to shreds. ;)

[Randall Sexton]

Mr. Eric wrote:

Some very strange points have been made. If I understand them correctly they consist of:

a) Double-blind studies are bad because some drugs were recalled.
b) Alternative medicine is good because people spent $27 billion dollars on them. In other words, $27 billion can't be all bad.
c) Anecdotal evidence is the only way to fly.

Perhaps Randall Sexton is suggesting that we take up cigarette smoking?

Mr. Randy replied:

Please don't start smoking...at least around me! Just jerking people's chains so they look "outside the box." When the public starts spending $27 billion on something other than the current health care system I think it means that there is a problem somewhere that needs addressing. And don't place all your faith in double-blind studies. Always question. As I've mentioned many people die as a result of these double-blind studies. Antedotal "experiences" deserve to be looked at. By the way, my favorite type of research is "grounded theory."

Eric:

Or, perhaps some time should be spent in a basic statistics class.

Randy:

My favorite stat classbook was "How to Lie with Statistics."

Eric:

When I was about 7 years old I saw a werewolf. I kid you not.

Randy:

Sure he didn't bite you? I only saw the Tasmanian Devil on cartoons.

Eric:

What does this story prove? Nothing really, other than that as a 7 year old I had an over-active imagination and that my powers of observation were not 100% reliable. So, why would someone see Angels?

Randy:

Knowing the developmental stage of a 2 yr old, it just makes you wonder. Nothing more; nothing less.

Eric:

I will agree with Randall Sexton on one point. It is incredibly difficult to prove a practice such as reiki.

Randy:

Damn straight! Too many variables. And that pesky "mind-body" connection that screws everthing up. I hear now that individual cells even have a mind!

Eric:

Maybe people who do reiki achieve an improvement of some sort. If so, what is the real cause of it? Maybe it's the placebo effect? Maybe just being touched in a certain way helps? Is the improvement they achieve better or worse than alternatives?

Randy:

Personally, I think it's mostly the touch, whether it's a hand or needle. I still have problems with acupuncture as it's hard for me to understand. I think it's a very complex theory which probably has a modern "explanation"...if we could just find it. Just know that sometimes it worked for me; sometimes didn't. I had free access to it so just donated my body to see what would happen. I did an experiment once on a shiatsu student who walked into class one day with back pain so bad she asked to just sit and watch. At break, I put her on a massage table and told her to count the number of times I ran my hands lightly down the length of her spine. I stopped at 135. She got off the table and joined the others in class. Now this could be distraction, endorphins kicking in, short-circuiting the nerve pathways, etc., etc.. Now, if this occurred 2,000 years ago, some cave man could call it whatever he wanted, and after getting say a 90% success rate, probably figure he had something, even if a new modern system came along and said that his method was "woo-woo."

Eric:

In short, just because you see it working, that doesn't mean it worked. This is why you have studies (particularly double-blind) so that you can know for sure something is doing what you think it's doing.

Randy:

You're saying that if you see something happen right in front of you, that it didn't happen?

My wife (a school teacher)has powerful, how should I say it..oh, hell, "energy." She's much better than me in this regards and is the "resident healer" for school teachers. They come to her with headaches, pain, etc.. Yesterday, a brown belt karate student and fellow teacher came to her with painful elbow. When she took her hands off, he said, "how do you do that?" Her reply, "don't they teach you about ki in your martial art?" It was hard for him to deny reality.


Eric:

snip> ignore studies because a couple of them were wrong, and go with belief.

Randy:

No, we just don't go on blind faith, particularly when it's more than a couple. Remember the "tip of the iceberg" analogy. Hell, many drugs in the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) have an unknown mechanism of action. Docs still write prescriptions cause it works.

I'll depart the premises with a quote from Dr. Wolf, a quantum physics professor: "The old adage 'what you see is what you get' appears to apply to the world we see all around us. However, we litle appreciate that a different way of observing complementary to the adage exists. It states 'what you see is what you expect.'"

[MarkF]

The medical Boards and HMO won't certify Reiki or anything else as valid option because of a failed magician.

I don't know about "certification" but insurance companies will pay for chiropractic treatments, be it medicine or not. They will pay for accupuncture, as well, pain control clinics in which many of the treatments have no validity such as double blinds, bio-feedback (though this may have changed, I'm not up on today's version).

Good, controlled double blinds are beginning to disappear and is today much of the reason drugs are rushed to market only to be pulled later. Why? A positive effect is seen in those who are in the study and are benefitting by the drug or treatment. Doctors/scientists conducting the studies feel this is unfair to those getting the placebo treatment, and stop the study, rush it through the politicians' hands (greasing a palm or two isn't unknown) and it is dispensed to the public (this could take many years, but rushing a drug to market is about that fast).

Suddenly, people develope unknown side effects, illness or die because only one side of the double blind was seen and the test wasn't finished. Diet drugs, and drugs to treat HIV and/or AIDS get through in amazingly short periods of times. If they would only admit that they have just increased the size of the control group to the entire market for that particular drug, that would be one thing.

That is not a good double blind no matter how good the treatment/drug seems to be, no one yet knows what else it can do over time. Doctors hate the drug companies for many reasons, and the governments of some countries, eg, the USA, even worse. Reasons are those such as cost, ineffectiveness of the substance, or the stalling of getting a good drug to market. Today, there are four-thousand cough medications on the market, even though there are only three drugs known to be effective for suppressing a cough, and all of them are opiates, even one which is sold OTC. Anything else for supression of a cough doesn't work, and they know it. I get warnings on a daily basis. To bring up what one is trying to hack up, only one drug is effective. All others have been on the Probably less than effective list for decades, and one was pulled because it is just, plain BS.

There is a drug which has been on the market since th early seventies, but let's leave out the name (I'm in the business, and I need my job). Retail, the drug costs about $4,000.00/month, has been tested and is rated in the category of "Probably Less than Effective." The cost in the hospital is about $10,000.00 for a week's worth of medication.

This drug went through the best double blind money could buy, but the NDC and others have said the drug is probably not effective. It has been around for a long time. Docotors are prodded with more than a sales pitch, freebies, and the occasional vacation in Cancun.

But sometimes it is effective,enough to keep such an expensive drug on the market when there are better and cheaper treatments out today?

I don't know myself, but when I make rounds with an attending and some students and junior residents, they used to ask which treatment would be most effective. Today, the question is always "Which is the cheapest?"

I'd be careful of double blinds. Sometimes they are not "blind," but are certainly doubled.

It isn't the same in every country and the US is the master manipulator when it comes to the value, but no matter who it is sold to, all drug companies benefit the same. There is no downsizing except for those drugs which don't fit our standards, and are usually sent to third world countries, and that is a tax write-off. You don't think they do it out of the goodness of their hearts, do you?

Start putting the CEOs and BODs behind bars along with the other drug pushers when they put a bad product on the market and I'll probably be defending them in no time. In fact, put them in jail for the outrageous prices they charge which only a small percentage can afford, and I'd be a happy man doing a good job again.

Buy generic? All generic companies are owned by the major pharmaceutical companies today. Yes, they can manufacture and sell for less, but why bother? While I agree with Tony in fact, the reasons that people will go to the area of alternatives should be understood for that reason, if no other. Today, it is really economics and some flakes out there will make money off it, but they do not make money like the drug companies do, not even close (well, chiropractic comes the closest, but it too is left in the dust). If you want to see how they do it, pick up a copy of a PDR. While that book is a good reference to see what color something is, what it tastes like, or whether a tablet is scored or not, it is simply a giant consortium of drug companies who advertise their product and today is one of the best selling books on the market. They even make money off that. Some drug companies, such as Merck, have their own PDR-like manuals.

Available for an incredible price on CD, too.

Ask most any pharmacist. That is the last book to research if you want to know the truth, but even there, that one death while a person was taking that drug, even if it had nothing to do with the drug, it must be in that book by law. No one reads or sees that stuff and that is what they count on; no one reads the fine print. Make sure ou ask for the package insert when you pick up your prescriptions. Of course, that is what the PDR is made up of, package inserts.


BTW: Western-style medicine has been around for centuries, it is the patent medicines which have only a 100 years or so. There is a difference.


Mark

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Striking Hand
The only thing I find sad is that some people think that the Jeff Randi challenges are valid and proof.
I see them just a bit better than lets say the Ashida Kim challenges. Neither of these Gentlemen is really interested in doing any tests/challenges and loosing any of their money, thus their criteria of the test are bordering on the ridiculous.
This is completely untrue. Randi doesn't design a protocol; he lets expert scientists in the requisite field test them. As each claim is different, there is no one protocol. Get it?

Originally posted by Striking Hand
Even if you won the 1 mill. from Jeff Randi what does it mean in the larger scale of things.
You would have proven that the paranormal exists. That would radically change our understanding of the world.

Originally posted by Striking Hand
The medical Boards and HMO won't certify Reiki or anything else as valid option because of a failed magician.
Why do you say Randi is a failed magician? He was a popular performer, before devoting himself full-time to debunking pseudoscience.

Originally posted by Striking Hand
Jeff Randi even admits he only got 1 mill., meaning that if he looses it he has lost a major source of revenue ridiculing others.
Thus his interest is in the challenge is skewed.
Once again, you misunderstand. The money isn't Randi's; it's held in the form of negotiable bearer bonds and he can't touch it, so it was never "his" money to begin with. The point of the challenge is to have people like reikiya, yogic flyers, dowsers, etc., prove that they can actually do what they claim they can. He's tested many different sorts of claims, and under proper double-blind conditions, no one has EVER succeeded in demonstrating psychic abilities. Maybe you'll be the first, Peter...

Originally posted by Striking Hand
He is not conducting a scientic research, but a challenge.
Again, this is not true. The tests are performed by proper scientists. Check out the claim procedure (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) to see that I'm right.

Originally posted by Striking Hand
P.S.: I know Tony will rip this to shreds. ;)
Well, you got that much right. It's not enough to demonstrate psychic powers, though. ;)

[MarkF]

The Amazing one started out by himself, making as many television shows he could to debunk the bunko artists.


He's tested many different sorts of claims, and under proper double-blind conditions, no one has EVER succeeded in demonstrating psychic abilities. Maybe you'll be the first, Peter...


He started with a ten-thousand dollar offer back in the late sixties from his own bank account. As a magician, well, let's just say he is far more popular and known today as the anti-magician, such as Penn And Tellar, with their new show called BullSh!t. They did creation "science" tonight.:eek:

Randi started on the talk show circuit, and other variety shows, especially the reality type shows of the early 1970s. I saw him debunk a guy who said he could turn the pages of the Yellow Pages one at a time without touching them, but Randi did effect that test before it began. He poured a coffee can amount of light packing foam around the telephone book (he had the guy's permission, too). The guy couldn't do what he said he could, at least not with the foam around the book. His excuse was that the foam was "taking the energy away." I wouldn't call that "proper double blind conditions" but it did prove the guy was turning the pages with his breath.

The most famous of all (who now calls himself a magician/mentalist, like the Amazing Kreskin (sp)), Uri Gellar, was outed by amateur magician Johnny Carson on the older version of the Tonight Show. Since Gellar had stated in his pre-interview that he could bend metals of most any kind of utensil, Johnny ordered up a tray full of stuff from the commissary. The first thing Gellar said when he came out was "You're scaring me." He hasn't been saying he did anything metaphysical for a long time now.

It really doesn't take much to debunk most of these guys, you just need common sense, and for all of James Randi's lack of talent as a prestodigitator/sleight artist, he has plenty of common sense. Experience gained is very valid.

Static electricity in the dark looks like chi, though.;)


Mark

[Gene Williams]

In high school, we used to light farts in the dark. Was that ki? Gene :D

[Emily]

Originally posted by JimGould


*snip of rather a lot of overheated arguments*



I'm a USA nationally certified bodyworker (massage therapist or masseuse if you like). I work on an Army post in Europe. Army breaks 'em, I fix 'em.

I got my first "Reiki" attunement from a nice relative who happened to have the money to go through all the training.
She said "you're doing it already" and she told me an interesting story and did some nice fluffy things and *poof* I was attuned.

So here's the scoop:
If you think Reiki works, it does.
If you think it's hogwash, it probably won't work for you.

I think separating the energetic component of healing from the physical or spiritual component is hogwash, myself.

Getting better is hard work, you can't just wave a magic wand.

I certainly wouldn't charge for Reiki any more than I would for laying on of hands in Christ's or Zoroaster's or Snoopy's name.

It might work for terminal people who need comfort and presence and don't have anyone else. I'll never stop being amazed about what people think works.

What works for me is a good knowledge of human anatomy & kinesiology, rehabilitative methodology, intuition, luck, empathy and Paying Attention.

Here's some good practical info on Reiki and other "alternatives":

www.quackwatch.org

http://www.ncahf.org/search/webglimpse.cgi?lines=1&ARCHID_2=2&lines=on&query=Reiki

MLE
www.katsujin.com

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Emily
If you think Reiki works, it does.
If you think it's hogwash, it probably won't work for you.
This is not science. If reiki claims are real, they will work whether I deny them or not. What you're describing is the placebo effect. You should learn the difference.

[Randall Sexton]

No, that was carbon dioxide, methane, and oxygen.

[Randall Sexton]

Emily, I'm also a Zen Shiatsu therapist, RN, and martial artist. I received Reiki attunements (for free) from a friend. That's the only reason I did it cause I would'nt have paid for it. Did you have any "strange things" happen to you afterwards? I had permanant erections every night for almost a month. No, problem here except it made it difficult to sleep. Also, one night only, I was awakened by ...I can only explain it as an "image that I felt" of a tornado in my lower abdomen that lasted for around 30 seconds. None of the above had ever happened before or since. That occurred going from Reiki 1 to Reiki 2. Nothing happened going from Reiki 2 to Reiki 3. I've also felt things from several Reiki friends that do not happen within our "scientific framework." As a physically healthy, well educated fellow (who has also passed psychological testing with flying colors), I merely take note of this and think that maybe there are somethings that we can't explain yet.


Emily:

"So here's the scoop:
If you think Reiki works, it does.
If you think it's hogwash, it probably won't work for you."

Randy:

It's part of the scoop. The answer to both statements is "sometimes."

Emily:

"I think separating the energetic component of healing from the physical or spiritual component is hogwash, myself."

Randy:

I agree with you here. I think those of us who actually touch the human body develop an "awareness" that others do not.


Emily:

"It might work for terminal people who need comfort and presence and don't have anyone else. I'll never stop being amazed about what people think works."

Randy:

It's the same with tribal people and their shaman. He is "supposed to have the power" to heal, so therefore does in many cases. Then you have a group of physicians/psychologists who go down to the jungle who are curious and then witness an ill group member go through some kind of "cellular transformation" that continues even after they arrive home and testing confirms that something is happening which they can't explain.

Emily:

"What works for me is a good knowledge of human anatomy & kinesiology, rehabilitative methodology, intuition, luck, empathy and Paying Attention."

Randy:

Agreed. I personally think that we argue too much (about what is truth) about how and what the ancients described what they experienced in their world (keeping in mind that they were more attuned with nature). On the other hand, some of us (whose barefeet never touch anything but concrete) aren't even aware of what happens in our own body.

[JimGould]

Its hard to tell from Emilies post if she actually believe in Reiki or not

[Kimpatsu]

Rather than believing in something, why don't you prove it? (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

[JimGould]

Do you use cut and paste a lot Tony or do you just retype that all the time?
Are you a right mouse button user or do you use the drop down menues?

Are you willing to cover all my costs under clause 6 as its you who want the proof not me?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by JimGould
Do you use cut and paste a lot Tony or do you just retype that all the time?
Cut and paste. I evidently have to repeat myself a lot, because you still won't take the test. (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

Originally posted by JimGould
Are you a right mouse button user or do you use the drop down menues?
Both. What's your point?

Originally posted by JimGould
Are you willing to cover all my costs under clause 6 as its you who want the proof not me?
No. You make the claim, you foot the bills. Hey, you're gonna win $1 million, right, so you don't care, do you? Or do you know you can't win?

[Steve Williams]

Another Reiki thread that went into degenerating argurement....


If you want to debate (properly) the issue more then use the "sticky thread" at the top.