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powerof0ne
21st July 2006, 20:04
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion. I used to teach around 8 Iraqi(muslim too)students a few years back and they had no problem bowing during class. To me, this is kind of disrespectful, because the bowing isn't a religious thing to me at all. The owner of this school agreed to give in and not press them bowing.
What I want to know is, does this really go against there religion and why? I question it because I have taught other people of Muslim faith before and they had no problem bowing.
They also have been training for a few years and are wanting to compete in some tournaments and basically It hink this will create a problem. They will go to a tournament and not want to bow. Sorry if I am offending anyone of Muslim faith because I don't mean to at all. I just want to know why bowing to eachother, and your instructor would go against your religion? I don't have anyone bow to any pictures, symbols, shrines, etc. when I teach, just to eachother or before and after a kata.
Thank you to any of you that can perhaps tell me why individuals of Muslim faith can't bow?

Prince Loeffler
21st July 2006, 20:15
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion. I used to teach around 8 Iraqi(muslim too)students a few years back and they had no problem bowing during class. To me, this is kind of disrespectful, because the bowing isn't a religious thing to me at all. The owner of this school agreed to give in and not press them bowing.
What I want to know is, does this really go against there religion and why? I question it because I have taught other people of Muslim faith before and they had no problem bowing.
They also have been training for a few years and are wanting to compete in some tournaments and basically It hink this will create a problem. They will go to a tournament and not want to bow. Sorry if I am offending anyone of Muslim faith because I don't mean to at all. I just want to know why bowing to eachother, and your instructor would go against your religion? I don't have anyone bow to any pictures, symbols, shrines, etc. when I teach, just to eachother or before and after a kata.
Thank you to any of you that can perhaps tell me why individuals of Muslim
faith can't bow?


I have this problems over and over again. My solution:

Regarless of cultural religious beliefs. Never give in and compromise the integrity of your dojo's protocol. If you allow them to get their way, what's stopping others from doing the same. If they don't want to bow to the shomen then go someplace else. If they don't want to bow to the sensei go someplace else. If they don;t want to bow to their fellow students, get the heck out of my dojo and start your own.

Bottom line is that its your dojo and the primary rule of your dojo should be " The customer is ALWAYS wrong !

Nuff said !

powerof0ne
21st July 2006, 20:28
Thanks Mr. Loeffler
Unfortunately I don't own this school and will probably quit teaching at it soon because some of the compromising I have had to do. I was wondering if bowing to eachother actually goes against the Muslim faith? I can understand bowing to the shomen, but to eachother? I really have no idea since I am not Muslim.
I like that a lot: "The customer is ALWAYS wrong !"
I'll have to remember that one.

Prince Loeffler
21st July 2006, 21:00
Thanks Mr. Loeffler
Unfortunately I don't own this school and will probably quit teaching at it soon because some of the compromising I have had to do. I was wondering if bowing to eachother actually goes against the Muslim faith? I can understand bowing to the shomen, but to eachother? I really have no idea since I am not Muslim.
I like that a lot: "The customer is ALWAYS wrong !"
I'll have to remember that one.

You're very welcome Brian and just call me Prince. There are some cultures that takes bowing as a gesture of reverences to their god(s). I respect that, however I draw the line when these extremist comes to my personal haven and attempts to get their wills imposed.

There was a time when two potential students came to see me about joining our dojo. after giving a brief speech about the history of karate-do and what the our dojo offers. They found out that the word " Do" means "way". Much like the tsunami that hit the coast of thailand and Indonesia without warning, I was "lectured" about the one and only "true" way.

This went on for almost 20 minutes ( I kept looking at the clock). Salvation redemptions, blah blah blah, sins, blah blah,... Right at this point I just wanted to say that I belong to the church of Satan... :p

Thankfully, my cell phone rang and I recused myself out for the moment. When I came back, I thought I could throw in a tabd bit of my dry humor saying " That was Jesus Christ and He wants both of you back in Heaven ASAP"...... :)

They felt insulted and stormed off the dojo and I was laughing out pretty much the rest of the afternoon.

I said this before and I'll say it again. I have nothing against Jesus Christ, but its his groupies that I can't stand.

Brad Burklund
21st July 2006, 21:03
Brian,

This can be a big problem for some since this speaks to the religious connotations of actions as opposed to the traditional aspects of a particular culture. In the case of bowing, if I am not mistaken, it is only to God whom they should bow, and not to another individual or power.

I do not know how it would be defined with respect to Chinese Muslims or those Muslims residing in Asian cultures where bowing takes the place of a handshake. But this is similar to Quakers and other religious groups in the U.S.A. not saying the Pledge of Allegiance since this places the individual in the awkward postion of stepping over religious lines within everyday activity where one holds religion to have the superior authority.

In this instance, it is up to you to make the standards of your dojo yours, but it is also up to the individual whether he should respect those standards as acceptable to him.

Ask a devout Roman Catholic out to have steak on Friday sometime or for a Jewish man to come to the roasted Pork dinner that all new dojo members tradtionally partake of. Same difference.

Then you have to ask yourself, what am I teaching: bowing or MAs? Even within a traditional atmoshphere.

-B

Norbert Funke
21st July 2006, 21:36
This can be a big problem for some ....I would extend Brians original question. If bowing already is questionable, I would argue that the new students should think about if MA is really something for them. Many other terms (kata names, techniques) eventually have some relationship to the japanese and eventually budhist culture. Do they have a problem with this or does it create a conflict? If the answer is yes, then they should not persue MA at all, if the answer is no, then bowing should not be an issue either.

kiai
21st July 2006, 23:34
Bowing correctly is an issue of kamae, and an important signal that begins and ends focused practice. It's part of the art, not an unnecessary ritual. Budo begins and ends with reiho -- as my kendo sensei says, "No rei, no kendo." Anyone who has a problem with reiho has a problem with budo.

Woody
22nd July 2006, 01:00
yup, gotta bow in my dojo.

yoj
22nd July 2006, 01:52
"On the mat, I am a god. Bow to me or hear the lamentations of your women folk..."


try it in a Conan voice.

joe yang
22nd July 2006, 02:18
Bowing correctly is an issue of kamae, and an important signal that begins and ends focused practice.

Well put, and with enough repetition bowing can have Pavlovian consequences. We begin to train with a bow, while we learn to focus. After many years the mere act of bowing can put us in a focused state. I'll take that edge.

Geoff
22nd July 2006, 02:50
I have been at dojo where the commands shomen ni rei and o-sensei rei were part of the opening protocols. I participated in these opening courtesies (and will again), but as a Jewish man I can see why this might pose a problem for those who are strictly observant. Bowing to a shrine (shomen) or ancestor spirit (o-sensei) is a spiritual, if not overtly religious, act.

However, I do make the distinction between bowing in formal opening ceremonies and bowing before sparring. In the first case you have the implicit spirituality of a Buddhist or Confucian ceremony while in the second case you are showing respect to another individual. In fact, a religious person (at least in the Jewish faith) could probably rationalize the pre-sparring bow as a recognition of his opponent's innate value as a human being created in the image of G-d. I think there was an article about an ultra-orthodox Israeli 8th dan (Korean style) who had come to terms with bowing in a similar way in my grandmother's Hadassah magazine a while back.

Bowing before kata is a little more nuanced. If one treats the bow as a form of Zen Buddhist exercise then the problems inherent in the opening ceremony-type bow arise. If one treats the bow as a recognition and respect of the art's ancestors then a religious person may also find pre-kata bowing problematic. However, if one uses the bow for a purely secular purpose, i.e. as a integral to the ready position, it should theoretically pose no problem.

But lets say someone is dead set against the pre-kata bow. What happens? Is it that we, as Japanese style karateka, refuse to recognize the Chinese roots of our arts where bowing at the beginning and end of forms is often not a requirement. The most powerful demonstration of Hsing-yi I ever witnessed was not prefaced or ended with a bow and yet it was more martial and traditional than 99% of the karate I have seen.

Would you make a Muslim (or Orthodox Jewish) woman uncover her hair to train or could they wear a scarf? Would a Jewish or Sikh man have to remove his head cover? How do these choices affect THEIR karate (not yours, you are after all giving them your art when you teach them). I would hate to think that I might turn away a boy in need of the discipline and order of the dojo, a woman in need of the strength and courage of budo or any other person who comes to train with an open mind and an honest goal because my mind wasn't open to another person's point of view.

Joseph Svinth
22nd July 2006, 03:08
One tends to have more trouble here with devout non-believers. There were court cases regarding this in the Seattle judo community a few years ago. The judo association prevailed in court, because it is a tradition of the art.

One could, however, compromise by using a Chinese-style opening. These are used by Muslims in China, so there is certainly hadith (tradition) to support the usage.

Might be inappropriate for judo or kendo, but for karate? What's the problem? You're simply allowing folks to choose their root, Southern China, Edo-era Okinawa, or Showa-era Japan. Pick one, and then tell them to research this portion of the history, to make those traditions theirs.

Ed_morris
22nd July 2006, 03:17
that old saying: 'when in rome...do as romans do'

people that are hung-up on religious and superstitious ritual stuff to the point they are unwilling to participate in the practice due to the gym's culture as oppossed to the gym's quality of instruction shouldn't be there anyway. so it works out well if gyms owners don't bend to the needs of everyone.

Tanto
22nd July 2006, 04:29
The underlying principal behind bowing in my school is respect, regardless of the historical and traditional roots (shomen, o-sensei etc) From our rules of procedure:
8. A match is always begun with a formal bow. TO NOT DO SO is traditionally looked upon as an insult and a request for a real match. (capitalized in the procedures, not by me)
In reference to the Pavlovian response mentioned earlier (a fascinating concept) I can see real problems with facing someone who was supposed to be an honorable opponent in a tournament match, only to be "insulted" by a "request for a real match".
However, we do the standing, bend-forward-at-the-waist bow, not the true, traditional on your knees with forehead on the floor bow- which would definately make a muslim uncomfortable, as this is the required posture for prayer-

Tanto
22nd July 2006, 04:36
Forgot to mention-in my dojo bowing is not an option. Rei is the one word used most often during a class, and a class WITHOUT formal kata or kumite would have at least 8 "required" rei. You can get away without learning any Japanese, but if you refuse to bow you might as well go get some tae bo tapes.

Nyuck3X
22nd July 2006, 06:13
Would you make a Muslim (or Orthodox Jewish) woman uncover her hair to train or could they wear a scarf? Would a Jewish or Sikh man have to remove his head cover? How do these choices affect THEIR karate (not yours, you are after all giving them your art when you teach them). I would hate to think that I might turn away a boy in need of the discipline and order of the dojo, a woman in need of the strength and courage of budo or any other person who comes to train with an open mind and an honest goal because my mind wasn't open to another person's point of view.

Geoff,

I understand the point you are making, but this may be one of those things
that these people need to get used to. If your religion prohibits something,
then do not do it! If you are not suppose to dance, then stay out of dances!
My children have Muslim classmates. They do not participate in social
gatherings or public demonstrations. They claim it is against their beliefs.
Fine, if you want to believe in something, then make that commitment and
stick to it.

(By the way, the Catholic religion no longer requires us from obstaining from
meat on Fridays.)

There is no reason you could not teach these people self defense if that is
what they are seeking. For that you do not have to comply to any traditions.
If it is discipline they are looking for, then there are other avenues.
By the way, there are other arts of middle eastern origins that are available.

If it is traditional karate they want to learn, then I must agree that it is part
of this discipline and if they don't like it, then they can choose to leave.
If I state that straight punches to the face are "against my religion or
principles", then are you going to rechoreograph kata for me? I hope not!

I do not attend animal sacrifices because it is against my morals. Therefore
I do not go to Satanic rituals. (Unless it's a Bar-b-que) ;)

Peace

Prince Loeffler
22nd July 2006, 06:53
I have been at dojo where the commands shomen ni rei and o-sensei rei were part of the opening protocols. I participated in these opening courtesies (and will again), but as a Jewish man I can see why this might pose a problem for those who are strictly observant. Bowing to a shrine (shomen) or ancestor spirit (o-sensei) is a spiritual, if not overtly religious, act.

However, I do make the distinction between bowing in formal opening ceremonies and bowing before sparring. In the first case you have the implicit spirituality of a Buddhist or Confucian ceremony while in the second case you are showing respect to another individual. In fact, a religious person (at least in the Jewish faith) could probably rationalize the pre-sparring bow as a recognition of his opponent's innate value as a human being created in the image of G-d. I think there was an article about an ultra-orthodox Israeli 8th dan (Korean style) who had come to terms with bowing in a similar way in my grandmother's Hadassah magazine a while back.

Bowing before kata is a little more nuanced. If one treats the bow as a form of Zen Buddhist exercise then the problems inherent in the opening ceremony-type bow arise. If one treats the bow as a recognition and respect of the art's ancestors then a religious person may also find pre-kata bowing problematic. However, if one uses the bow for a purely secular purpose, i.e. as a integral to the ready position, it should theoretically pose no problem.

But lets say someone is dead set against the pre-kata bow. What happens? Is it that we, as Japanese style karateka, refuse to recognize the Chinese roots of our arts where bowing at the beginning and end of forms is often not a requirement. The most powerful demonstration of Hsing-yi I ever witnessed was not prefaced or ended with a bow and yet it was more martial and traditional than 99% of the karate I have seen.

Would you make a Muslim (or Orthodox Jewish) woman uncover her hair to train or could they wear a scarf? Would a Jewish or Sikh man have to remove his head cover? How do these choices affect THEIR karate (not yours, you are after all giving them your art when you teach them). I would hate to think that I might turn away a boy in need of the discipline and order of the dojo, a woman in need of the strength and courage of budo or any other person who comes to train with an open mind and an honest goal because my mind wasn't open to another person's point of view.


Geoff ! I will make this plain and painless. If you want to go to a dojo that allows you to wear pink underwear without pants because its your religion. More power to you. Now if you try to go to my dojo with that religious extremist attitude in MY dojo. There is only one way ! MINE !

Karate instructors are not store clerks ! You are not my customer. You are here because you want to be part of something. There are no buts or ifs. YOU came to my dojo , I did not come to you and twist your arm to be in my dojo.

Yes, I have turned down many people who refused to accept dojo protocols. Am I being a purist ? Heck ya ! I am proud to be. What's point of preserving an art when one has to change the essense of the system.

Our dojo is our little world preserving the legacy of our founder's karate-do, I don't need you to come and get preachy on equal rights and preferential treatments based of your extreme political and religious beliefs. I believed that you are special just like everyone else. :)

Bottom line is: Its my Dojo and I'll run it the way I want, if other people don't like it , Oh well Vaya Con Dios ! :p

Brian Owens
22nd July 2006, 07:37
...this is kind of disrespectful, because the bowing isn't a religious thing to me at all.
It's not a matter of disrespect on their part, because it is a "religious thing" to them.


...What I want to know is, does this really go against there religion and why? I question it because I have taught other people of Muslim faith before and they had no problem bowing.
As with different sects of Buddhism, different denominations of Christianity, etc., there are different interpretations of Islam. Sometimes this kind of thing is even an individual interpretation, going beyond what a particular sect's teachings may be. That doesn't make it any less legitimate to the person who believes it though.


...The owner of this school agreed to give in and not press them bowing.
Since the owner of the school has said they do not need to bow, then -- as Prince suggested -- if you don't like it, go teach somewhere else.

I don't mean to be harsh, but that's what it comes down to. In your dojo you have the final say. In someone else's dojo, they have the final say.

cxt
22nd July 2006, 13:52
Why is it that when people make pleas for "respect" and "being understanding of others peoples views."
They almost always "really" mean:

"I want you to cater to MY personal views!!!"

Not a teacher, but we had an issue with several Christain members whom had "issues" with bowing and the mokuso prior to class.
They felt it was some form of meditation and thus "reglious."

Don't know how many times they said some version of "all we are asking for is some understanding of our views and feelings."

Finally the instructer told them:

"Look all I'M asking for is some understanding of MY views and feelings!!"

Tolerence and understanding have to go BOTH ways.

Otherwise its just people trying to force you to put THEIR beliefs and views ahead of your own.

powerof0ne
22nd July 2006, 16:15
It's not a matter of disrespect on their part, because it is a "religious thing" to them.


As with different sects of Buddhism, different denominations of Christianity, etc., there are different interpretations of Islam. Sometimes this kind of thing is even an individual interpretation, going beyond what a particular sect's teachings may be. That doesn't make it any less legitimate to the person who believes it though.


Since the owner of the school has said they do not need to bow, then -- as Prince suggested -- if you don't like it, go teach somewhere else.

I don't mean to be harsh, but that's what it comes down to. In your dojo you have the final say. In someone else's dojo, they have the final say.

You're right Brian, the only reason why it bugs me is because I am a higher rank than the school owner. I am the one teaching(and someone else), not the owner. I will be departing this dojo but the thing that confused me was how I used to teach other middle eastern people of Muslim faith in the past that had no problem with bowing and these individuals do. I wasn't sure if this really went against there religion or not.
I have been told by someone, and I really have no idea how true this is, that Moroccon males like to challenge authority. I have been told this part over and over by the two adults, that they want there kids to learn how to defend themselves because "In Morrocco the kids are tough and fight eachother all the time".
As of today I'm giving the owner of this school my two weeks notice because of this issue and others. I thank all of you for your replies to this thread.

Prince Loeffler
22nd July 2006, 18:53
Brian,

First, I'd like to say I am sorry of what you have to go thru and rest I assured I know how you feel. However, I do believed that when one door closed , another opens. Good luck Brian.

Joseph Svinth
22nd July 2006, 21:09
The Moroccans I used to live with drank Scotch and ate bacon. They were also nominally Muslim. So, it sounds like these guys are just trying to pull your chain.

But what the heck. Nobody said you have to lower your standards in other areas. They don't have to bow, and you don't have to have them stop doing push-ups and running lines. Either they will get really fit or they'll leave, and either way you won't have compromised your principles too much.

Brian Owens
22nd July 2006, 21:34
The Moroccans I used to live with drank Scotch and ate bacon. They were also nominally Muslim. So, it sounds like these guys are just trying to pull your chain.
Now wait a minute, Joe. IMNSHO that doesn't follow.

The quys who ate bacon and drank Scotch may have been nominally Muslim, but they most certainly were not following the tenets of the faith. Muslim in name only, as it were.

I have Jewish friends who work on Saturdays, and others who won't. The former have a kitchen just like mine, while that latter have two refrigerators, two sinks, etc. Are the latter, who strictly observe the Sabbath and keep kosher, "pulling my chain" when they say they can't work on Saturday, just because the first do? Hardly.

Norbert Funke
22nd July 2006, 21:53
Bottom line is: Its my Dojo and I'll run it the way I want, if other people don't like it , Oh well Vaya Con Dios ! :pWell said, here is a quote of our Dojo manual and I believe it says it all: "The Martial Arts student must be modest enough to lower his own ego to the rules of the dojo and must respect the importance of his new powers. The Martial Arts is not a store-bought item that you are entitled to merely because you pay tuition. The burden is too great, and the reflection and responsibilities larger then the individual". I adhere to this so should everyone else, otherwise an important piece of the culture gets lost.

allochi
24th July 2006, 22:25
Hi Guys;

I didn't read all the openions here to be honest, I'm a Muslim Iraqi and I'm an Iaidoka in a Dojo too.

Regarding Bowing, it's a very big thing in Islam to bow to anything except God, very big sin, actually in the 5 prays daily, depend on what time we bow to God 2 to 4 times in a pray, so it's for God and only God.

Now I also have to say I do bow in the dojo, I want to learn Iaido, but really in my head I have a different thoughts when it comes to bowing in the dojo than in a pray, the bow in the pray is for the greatness of God, it's the way I show respect, of course beside that I don't drink alchohole nor I do the other forbiden things that God said not to do, in the dojo, it's like just a kata for me (in my head when I do it there is like complete silence :), sometimes I say im my heart "God is the greatest", after all God know what is in a person's heart)

I did heard someone saying something about a Japanese Sensie who became a muslim and he did ask "AZHAR" the Islamic sience center in eygpt, and I heard that they said it's ok because you are not meaning to respect something like God, I will ask and get back to you about it, maybe they contact "AZHAR" from their side.

It's not only this, actually one of the Iaido katas in shoden, which is helping someone to suiside by cutting his head after the other do Hara-Kiri is not good, in Islam (as in other religions I know) you do not suiside nor help someone to do it :)

The bottom line for the Sensei who is asking, yes bowing is not allowed for anything except God, if it can be allowed for learning purpose, this the thing I will ask muslim scientast and return back with sold openion, but as I said I'm a muslim Iraqi and I do it for the sake of learning, as a kata nothing more.

Don't leave your Dojo, I think you respected the faith of the japanese and adobted bowing as a protocol of training, maybe you should treat these guys the same ;), they can train, don't get them into tornemant that's all :)

Prince Loeffler
24th July 2006, 22:33
Hi Guys;

I didn't read all the openions here to be honest, I'm a Muslim Iraqi and I'm an Iaidoka in a Dojo too.

Regarding Bowing, it's a very big thing in Islam to bow to anything except God, very big sin, actually in the 5 prays daily, depend on what time we bow to God 2 to 4 times in a pray, so it's for God and only God.

Now I also have to say I do bow in the dojo, I want to learn Iaido, but really in my head I have a different thoughts when it comes to bowing in the dojo than in a pray, the bow in the pray is for the greatness of God, it's the way I show respect, of course beside that I don't drink alchohole nor I do the other forbiden things that God said not to do, in the dojo, it's like just a kata for me (in my head when I do it there is like complete silence :), sometimes I say im my heart "God is the greatest", after all God know what is in a person's heart)

I did heard someone saying something about a Japanese Sensie who became a muslim and he did ask "AZHAR" the Islamic sience center in eygpt, and I heard that they said it's ok because you are not meaning to respect something like God, I will ask and get back to you about it, maybe they contact "AZHAR" from their side.

It's not only this, actually one of the Iaido katas in shoden, which is helping someone to suiside by cutting his head after the other do Hara-Kiri is not good, in Islam (as in other religions I know) you do not suiside nor help someone to do it :)

The bottom line for the Sensei who is asking, yes bowing is not allowed for anything except God, if it can be allowed for learning purpose, this the thing I will ask muslim scientast and return back with sold openion, but as I said I'm a muslim Iraqi and I do it for the sake of learning, as a kata nothing more.

Don't leave your Dojo, I think you respected the faith of the japanese and adobted bowing as a protocol of training, maybe you should treat these guys the same ;), they can train, don't get them into tornemant that's all :)


Well written and well said Mr. Zaid. You have made a great point many us are trying to convey to some extremist. Your respect to your Japanese training is returned back towards you and your faith. Thanks again for posting.

Nyuck3X
24th July 2006, 23:13
Thank-you Mr. Ali Zaid.
You have made a personal observation that I think many people do not
understand. You made a distiction between physically bowing and bowing
as in humbling yourself before your God.

To bow before God to me means to put all ego aside and to submit my faith
to that God. Bowing to another person is just a physical salute to acknowlege
the other person and to respect her/him as a human being.

I am curious to what your expert says.
Looking forward to your reply.

Peace.

Norbert Funke
24th July 2006, 23:53
Don't leave your Dojo, I think you respected the faith of the japanese and adobted bowing as a protocol of training, maybe you should treat these guys the same , they can train, don't get them into tornemant that's all I like how you distinguished between bowing out of faith reasons and bowing as a training-protocol. It is unfortunate that for both we just have the same word but with different intention. We probably should be clearer in the communication. The way I see it, we don't want to use MA to change one's faith. Faith is a personal matter and should be respected - so is it on both sides, if an activity might conflict now or potentially later with my own faith, I have to decide on my own if I would continue or quit this activity. On that though I can't talk out of my own experience. Fortunately for me, I did not have a conflict in my conscience so far. Let me know, how it plays out.

dilligaf
25th July 2006, 17:08
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion.


I think that says it all and i agree with the sentiment of the thread. If someone dosen't want to play by the houses rules, then they can go someplace else. I can understand that it is not your dojo and that makes things harder, but like it has been post it before, don't compromise your integrety.

I left a place over a similar sitiuation. I was being asked to put my integrety and my arts to the side and do something i knew was not in line with martial arts. So, i grabed my stuff and hit the road.

powerof0ne
25th July 2006, 17:20
I appreciate everyone's replies to this because it helped me reach a decision and I'm not leaving this dojo just because of the bowing. To make a long story short this dojo is becoming a McDojo. I like the owner, a lot, he's a very nice guy but really shouldn't own a dojo unless he lets someone else run it.
Thank you Ali Zaid for your perspective on all of this because I really didn't know if it was wrong for someone of Muslim faith to bow or not.

Gordon Nore
29th July 2006, 04:35
...Would you make a Muslim (or Orthodox Jewish) woman uncover her hair to train or could they wear a scarf? Would a Jewish or Sikh man have to remove his head cover? How do these choices affect THEIR karate (not yours, you are after all giving them your art when you teach them). I would hate to think that I might turn away a boy in need of the discipline and order of the dojo, a woman in need of the strength and courage of budo or any other person who comes to train with an open mind and an honest goal because my mind wasn't open to another person's point of view.


Regarding Bowing, it's a very big thing in Islam to bow to anything except God, very big sin, actually in the 5 prays daily, depend on what time we bow to God 2 to 4 times in a pray, so it's for God and only God.

Now I also have to say I do bow in the dojo, I want to learn Iaido, but really in my head I have a different thoughts when it comes to bowing in the dojo than in a pray, the bow in the pray is for the greatness of God, it's the way I show respect, of course beside that I don't drink alchohole nor I do the other forbiden things that God said not to do, in the dojo, it's like just a kata for me (in my head when I do it there is like complete silence , sometimes I say im my heart "God is the greatest", after all God know what is in a person's heart)

I've been lurking about this thread for days and finally decided to Chime in. I found Geoff's and Ali's posts on this issue informative and quite moving. Although it has not come up, which is surprising as our club operates through Parks and Rec, my sensei indicated to me that he is prepared to make some accomodation, such as allowing the student to nod slightly. We already teach students to bow head and eyes up.

I teach an after-school beginners' class at the elementary school where I work. I have many Muslim students. The class is very basic, and we don't free spar, so the students only have to bow when entering and leaving the dojo and to me and my assistant at the beginning and end of instruction. A handout I send home about the program explains that bowing to enter is promise to pay attention and learn as much as possible and bowing to leave is a promise to remember what they have learned. Further, I teach them that students bow to their teacher to thank him/her for teaching and teachers bow to their students as a acknowledgement of their efforts. In other words, bowing is reciprocal -- it is different from bowing before ones deity.

One question that has come up in this program is children going barefoot -- for some Muslims there are very strict rules about exposing flesh. That one's non-negotiable because it's a safety issue. I don't allow shoes or stocking feet for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with safety and conditioning. When I've explained it as a safety issue, parents have given in.

If I may go off-topic briefly, I used to be the Health and Physical Education teacher at my school. My preference was that students wear short sleeves, short pants, and running shoes. Some parents, for religious, cultural or personal reasons, dressed their kids in sweats. That was not a problem until we did our gymnastics unit where we unfolded the climbing apparatus from the wall. The Toronto District School Board's safety document stipulated that students have to wear short pants, T's or tanks, and runners -- we found that children who wore the latter were less likely to slip and fall. Children who were not dressed to standard for this activity couldn't go on the climber and were re-directed to the other equipment. Some children just quietly rolled up their sweat pants wore a t-shirt under their sweat shirts -- shhhh. We let them on.

So my own policy on this is this: equity where possible, but safety and law trump equity.

Prince Loeffler
29th July 2006, 04:47
Mr. Nore , thank you for the wealth of info presented here. There is nothing wrong with the way you or your sabunim wants to run their dojo.

allochi
29th July 2006, 10:36
Hay Guys;

Sorry for not getting back to you yet about what is the openion of islamic science about this.

By the way islam is considered science in islam, that mean there is no men of God, prests, monks, or any, each muslim has a direct relationship with God, and there are people who know more, and lead in this field, they usually called islamic scientasts, "Imam".

I didn't yet got a solid openion, I did read on the internet that it's forbiden, in Saudi Arabia, it's totally not allowed, and in compition there, if you do it, you lose points.

Now I also read about that eye move, or the uncomplete bow with your face up, some said it's allowed (didn't hear it from a scientets yet), in pray you bow 90 dgree, some say for the sake of training ONLY, you can bow like 5-10 with your face up, still I need to check better.

As for short panties I'm afraid this is completely right, for gils (who start to get period as they become fully functional women physically), they can show only face (no head), hands, and I do think foot is ok, never heard that they need to hide foot, whatever they wear to follow this is called "Hijab", which is translated into cover.

For boys since their young, they always have to cover from bellybutton to their knees (I think knees included, I better check), for boys and men there are special pants, that cover that much, I'm not a fashion expert, but I think they are like Bermuda Pants.

I also have seen allot of girls who wear "Hijab", yet they still do all kind of sport (Swimming in closed women pool ;)), they got used to it, and it's part of thier life.

Now, I know this is not the right place to bring this, but unfortunatily usually Islam get blammed that it restrict woman life, this is from the eye of a muslim is not true, and usually islamic comunities habits get mixed with Islam and people from out side this comunity judge the mixture :), I just hope for whomever is reading my post not to judge Islam by what he is reading here, if anyone have a question regarding the above, and the point of it, I would be so happy to get him that from a reliable source.

Fun facts: Some may say we restrict women in Islam by cover, well, there are some obligation on men too!!! women in Islam has to do nothing, as a man I have to get her a housekeeper, and she don't have to nurse my children from her! I have to get her a nurserer!!! :) and everytime she is bringing you a glass of water, she is actually doning you a BIG FAVOR :)

Lastly, I think all kind of sport, is good opertunity for people from different culters, religions and contenent to mix, and enjoy a commen interest, this will make great friendships, I hope if some world wide orgenization would take the responsibilty to set rules that respect everybody culture and help everybody to just enjoy thier type of sport without worrying about all of this :)

Long post, I know, I talk allot :)

Jay Vail
31st July 2006, 01:58
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion. to eachother or before and after a kata.
Thank you to any of you that can perhaps tell me why individuals of Muslim faith can't bow?

I strongly doubt that Islam forbids bowing any more than it forbids shaking hands (although many Muslims will refuse to shake hands with an infidel on the ground that the infidel is soiled).

Gordon Nore
31st July 2006, 02:09
I strongly doubt that Islam forbids bowing any more than it forbids shaking hands (although many Muslims will refuse to shake hands with an infidel on the ground that the infidel is soiled).

It's already been established in this thread that bowing before anyone but God is not generally permitted in the Muslim faith. As with any other religious group, however, individuals practise their faith differently and do not necessarily adhere to all traditions. As for handshaking, I've never heard of that or experienced it.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=413749&postcount=25

powerof0ne
31st July 2006, 03:28
I appreciate everyone's replies, especially allochi on getting a good perspective on all of this. Thank you for the quick replies.
Ossu

Nadelman
31st July 2006, 16:48
Geoff,

It is true that bowing is not permitted in Judaism, but as I understood it, this is only true in the case of prayer (to an idol) or to someone who presents himself/herself as a divine being (like the royalty in some cultures). The big problem in Judaism is idol worship, and what may be mistaken as idol worship.

Since bowing to an instructor, judges in a comeptition, or even a peer is considered a sign of respect only, like a handshake, you are ok. There is serious doubt that this would be mistaken for idol worship.

As I learned it, the handsake was developed as a way to mitigate another from drawing a weapon - it created neutrality. In this way so does the bow since you are exposing your head to another (as I see it). This is similiar to kneeling. So the respect in a bow comes from leaving yourself "vulnerable" and is a sign of "trust" (or "respect").

Now, bowing to the portrait of a deceased master may be problematic since there are some cultures who practice ancestor worship and this might be construed as idol worship. I see it only as a sign of respect, with absolutely no thought of this person being divine in any way. I am not praying or asking for any type of intervention, etc.

So, as I see it the bow is perfectly ok.

Texasmic
31st July 2006, 17:06
Harry Truman said "Extremists are always wrong."

I would say this, if I were in you situation I would tell the owner of the dojo that these people WILL bow like everyone else or I will refuse to teach them.

I have refused to teach MANY people who had questionable morals, or character, or attitude. I would classify this group as full of attitude.

How dare they come into someone's dojo and say what they will and will not do? If they won't follow the rules and customs of the dojo then they should get the heck out. And if the dojo owner is more concerned with money than the integrity of his dojo then maybe you should consider finding another place to train.

p.s. maybe you should report this morons to "Homeland Security" :rolleyes: l just kidding!

Brian Owens
1st August 2006, 03:58
...if the dojo owner is more concerned with money than the integrity of his dojo then maybe you should consider finding another place to train.
Aren't you jumping to a bit of a conclusion here? How do you know that the dojo owner's decision was based on money?

Gordon Nore
1st August 2006, 04:36
Harry Truman said "Extremists are always wrong."

I'm not sure that the term 'extremism' applies here -- this thread is about a convention of the Muslim faith.


I would say this, if I were in you situation I would tell the owner of the dojo that these people WILL bow like everyone else or I will refuse to teach them.

And that would be your right.


I have refused to teach MANY people who had questionable morals, or character, or attitude. I would classify this group as full of attitude.

Who do you mean by "this group"?


How dare they come into someone's dojo and say what they will and will not do? If they won't follow the rules and customs of the dojo then they should get the heck out.

...or, the dojo owner/instructor could take into account that newcomers to the dojo don't understand all of its conventions, explain that bowing is a non-religious gesture of respect and goodwill, and not take the extremist view that a given group of students has paid money and signed up for classes just so they could impose their will on someone else.

Texasmic
1st August 2006, 15:56
Who do you mean by "this group"?


I am refering to the two adults and two youths in question. I am not making a blacket statment about Muslims because I know through first hand experiance that the Muslims I have trained with will bow and observe all the customs everyone else does. I myself would have a real problem with anyone trying to attach a religious significance to the bowing I & my students do.



...or, the dojo owner/instructor could take into account that newcomers to the dojo don't understand all of its conventions, explain that bowing is a non-religious gesture of respect and goodwill, and not take the extremist view that a given group of students has paid money and signed up for classes just so they could impose their will on someone else.

Okay, I am making assumptions that these things have been explained to them and they still refuse. If the dojo owner has not explained these things to them then I (the one actually teaching them) would and if they still refuse then I would tell them that I refuse to teach them.

And if I were the dojo owner and all this was explained and they still refuse then I would refund their money and send them to the nearest tai kwon do school! LOL

powerof0ne
1st August 2006, 16:14
Aren't you jumping to a bit of a conclusion here? How do you know that the dojo owner's decision was based on money?

Brian, in this case his assumption is correct, the owner's decision is based on money. I was just about to post what is wrong with this school but it would be taking this thread off track. To not get too sidetracked I will say that this school is becoming more of a daycare then a karate dojo.

Texasmic
1st August 2006, 16:30
What would be next?

If you have Arab students you can't touch them with your left hand while training?

Maybe some cultures don't allow you to go bare footed in public, so are they allow to wear shoes on the mat?

Can you imagine even the most observant Jew trying to do judo and keep his yamaka on while getting thrown?

Gordon Nore
1st August 2006, 18:49
What would be next?

If you have Arab students you can't touch them with your left hand while training?
Then they can't train. People touch each other in martial arts classes, whether it's for grappling, or self-defense techniques, or correction of stances.


Maybe some cultures don't allow you to go bare footed in public, so are they allow to wear shoes on the mat?
Then they can't train, unless it's a school where the teacher allows students to wear MA shoes etc.

Can you imagine even the most observant Jew trying to do judo and keep his yamaka on while getting thrown?[/QUOTE]
If the student is concerned about constantly replacing his yarmulke during class, then that would be a distraction to others. Then he can't train.

Any instructor can dictate the rules for his or her class -- that is not in dispute. I'm not saying that any sensei cannot or should not teach in the way they choose. What I am suggesting here is that a teacher may also look seriously at what is and is not required to run a safe and productive class that maintains traditions that that instructor feels are important. It does not have to be a "give 'em an inch" discussion.

Texasmic
1st August 2006, 19:27
Any instructor can dictate the rules for his or her class -- that is not in dispute. I'm not saying that any sensei cannot or should not teach in the way they choose. What I am suggesting here is that a teacher may also look seriously at what is and is not required to run a safe and productive class that maintains traditions that that instructor feels are important. It does not have to be a "give 'em an inch" discussion.
I agree with you.

I suppose what I am coming back to it the original question of the poster of this thread.

It appears that HE is teaching these people, and it bothers HIM that they refuse to follow the customs that everyone else in the school are following.

He also feels that the dojo owner’s reasons for allowing this to go on are not pragmatic, but rather financial (greed) in nature, and it is bothering him.

He said that this dojo is turning into a "daycare".

I only gave him advice for what I would do in his situation, and you have done the same.

I think he is afraid that this situation with the flouting of customs is only one sign that this school is on the slippery slope down into "McDojoism" (if not already there).

I'm sure that if he is teaching he has dedicated time into the system he is studying, but the group of "non-bowing" students is just a symptom and not the disease of a general decline that he is seeing in this dojo.

mews
1st August 2006, 19:52
I've been lurking here - a good discussion from many points of view.

I had an Orthodox Jewish man as a student - Bowing done as 'respect for teacher, and teacher's culture' was fine. It helped that our head teacher was actually Japanese. Shinzen was a bit more complicated, but as 'respect for the lineage' it seemed to work for him.
A couple of pins helped with the yarmulke.

The Muslim women I've seen and trained with just covered their heads, and wore their sleeves to their wrists.

and good training happened ... which is the point.

Some things are non-negotiable - safety & law - [I like that phrase]
or some strongly held customs of a style ...

but other than that - does it help good training to happen?

That said, I think I would have reacted somewhat as the original poster did - he obviously felt there was a 'chip on the shoulder' thing going there, with the reason the parents gave as to why they wanted the children to train.

actually, to make things really complicated [sorry, Brian] there may be both honest religous feeling AND a chip on the shoulder going!

mew

powerof0ne
2nd August 2006, 01:50
Margaret, you might well be right but my reason for resigning from teaching at this Dojo isn't just because of this incident. It truly is turning into a McDojo, the owner got his Nidan through the world black belt bureau, wore an XMA uniform and some "cool" wrist bands and such(I'm not joking). I did my best to not make eye contact with him on the latter so I wouldn't laugh. I complimented him on his uniform because I'm a sarcastic bastard(I am, it's true)and couldn't help but say something. The owner doesn't seem to know any kata anymore and he says the female teaching the kids is good at kata when in my humble opinion she wouldn't even be nana kyu level with her kata from the dojo I came from.
The thing that stops me from video taping this and puting it on youtube for all to see is that they are very nice people. Just because someone is nice doesn't mean they should have a martial art school, though.
Now, you're probably wondering why I came to this school? The reason why was convenience and it beat nobody to spar with at all and they do more of a knockdown(kyokushin style)form of kumite. Unfortunately the owners son who is a nidan(who was the only person for me to spar)quit after a training accident.
The owner has even wore nike crosstrainers on his matts while training. Yes, he has destroyed his own matts by doing this and doesn't seem to realize it.
I also do not represent the style these individuals are, they are Goshin Kempo while my martial art background is primarily Shito Ryu and Muay Thai.

allochi
2nd August 2006, 08:33
powerof0ne, I'm not criticizing here or something, but, you complain that they don’t follow the sprite of the martial arts that you respect and feel you can’t go on without it, isn’t it better if you stay and train your student how to respect these? It’s a seed you put inside these students, when they see you with all the knowledge and philosophy, and they see the owner with his custom, clams, and bad way of practice, it nothing but a matter of time before they realize what is these rule about, I remember when I had my first session, and my sensei made me move in parallel lines for hours, I felt stupid, and I though he has no care for me, and that he is enjoy training the others who has reached higher levels, and because I respect the art and I want to learn it, I just told myself that it’s ok, if he keep me a one dimensional guy for too long I will QUIT! , but really next session I felt what stability ment, and everyday I listen to him, about breathing, about synchronize, about becoming one with the sword, about how I should respect the sword and use it respectfully, be careful and be aware of what is around me, all the dojo ethics, that I’m following now even when I train alone at home, because I started to realize the philosophy. Yes, I did have problems about bowing, yes, I did have a lot of problems from religion point of view, I’m not a Buddhist, I’m a Muslim, why should I believe in the seven signs that the ties of the Hakama represent , I then realized that these systems are there because this is thousands of years culture, and it didn’t come from nothing, it came from a system with the goal to build the student in mental and moral with the power, otherwise the student will grow to be a beast with a claw to hurt anyone in his way (or worse not in his way).

Now, my advice to you is to stay, teach these people, give them time, they will respect you because they will see you not only as a fighter who do cool moves and properly they will need a squad to overcome him, NO, they will see you as a teacher who teach a way of life, that everything in it has been set to avoid result to arms, but if it’s arms then I’m ready with minimum intention to hurt, only to protect, and push an ignorant away, keeping him from hurting others and himself.

I know movies are almost the initiator of big part of participants, maybe a session to show these people what is the differences are between real life and movies, how in movies they want to KILL and make it look cool, while in real life you should be as calm and forgiving as it can be.

powerof0ne, you seems a very honest teacher, and I’m afraid these student are losing the best teacher that they can get, and you are losing the best challenge you may get ;)

Douglas Wylie
2nd August 2006, 13:11
For the sake of argument(and so I dont become religion specific and offend), let me create some made up "Zeus on a cloud". The holy book written by a priest for this Zeus, allegedly after "receiving the words from Zeus himself", says "Zeus said- Worship me and no one else or I'll send your soul to eternal torment, because I love you so much." Lets say that some Zeus-religious leader takes that to mean "If you bow (lowering the head or eyes) then you are worshipping". There is a lot of trouble a follower could get into under this system.

There is the obvious- "Some other god appears and you bow giving praise to his greatness." Well, this is exactly what Zeus didnt want you to do=eternal torment. You meant to worship and did.

There is the other side of the obvious- "You drop a fork on the ground and bend over to pick it up and inadvertantly hit the bowing position" This puts you in quite a pickle, doesnt it? You didnt mean to worship but you did make the physical gesture. I sure hope this Zeus is "fair and just" because if he isn't, you get eternal torment for picking up a fork. You didn't mean to worship.

The difference is "intent".

There is the slightly less obvious- "You see your friend across the mall but are too busy to go talk, he nods his head, you do it back as a sign of friendship and recognition but this fits the definition of a bow." BAM! Eternal torment, thanks for playing. Not quite fair, is it? Here again, I sure hope this Zeus is fair and just, because that bow just kind of slipped out by accident. He did it to you, so you did it back, no harm intended. You didn't mean to worship.

It would sure help it this "intent" thing holds up when Zeus goes to decide your case. Whats OJ's lawyer's name again? "That's not what he meant, no eternal torment!" Is there some sort of appeals process?

Here is a down-right difficult to determine situation- "You are taking a very formal class from a Japanese teacher and instead of greeting each other with a high-five, hand shake, or by reciting poetry, they bow to each other." Eternal torment, eternal torment, eternal torment! You did it, you knew it, gotcha, HA HA! Well, here again, you did bow, no argument there. You just didn't bow as a sign of worship, it is just a custom. If this Zeus is fair and just, surely he can tell the difference between a custom and worshipping. I mean what kind of almighty creator of everything couldn't tell the difference? Is this Zeus great and almighty or silly and pedantic?

I guess if you get busted in this case and get eternal torment, you missed out on eternity with a deity who acts like an 11 year old with social problems. There was no "intent" to worship.

Lets get right down to the line here- "You bow to a Shinto shrine because the teacher tells you to, however, for you it is just an empty gesture since you dont believe in that religion." You are so screwed here! You took part in a religous ritual worshipping another god/concept/whatever. I guess it really depends on how "great and almighty", and "fair and just" this Zeus is. There is a real good case for you to get eternal torment, if someone were really out to get you. The real question is "Is this Zeus out to get you?". Is he like a child sitting on a cloud somewhere dispensing judgement and toying with humanity like we were his playthings. How sick is someone who wants to be with or worship someone who is "out to get them"?

I think it would take a deity who is loving, fair, just, almighty, and forgiving to see that what is in a man's heart is more important than some gesture he might make.

Well, since this Zeus is so out there that he needs so much worshipping all the damn time, occupying his time with sending souls to eternal torment instead of using his almighty powers to relieve some of the suffering in the world, maybe you should quit bowing, dropping forks, and learning heathen arts and go do some worshipping to get in his good graces quick before he "gets ya".

Texasmic
2nd August 2006, 14:45
powerof0ne, I'm not criticizing here or something, but, you complain that they don’t follow the sprite of the martial arts that you respect and feel you can’t go on without it, isn’t it better if you stay and train your student how to respect these? It’s a seed you put inside these students, when they see you with all the knowledge and philosophy, and they see the owner with his custom, clams, and bad way of practice, it nothing but a matter of time before they realize what is these rule about, I remember when I had my first session, and my sensei made me move in parallel lines for hours, I felt stupid, and I though he has no care for me, and that he is enjoy training the others who has reached higher levels, and because I respect the art and I want to learn it, I just told myself that it’s ok, if he keep me a one dimensional guy for too long I will QUIT! , but really next session I felt what stability ment, and everyday I listen to him, about breathing, about synchronize, about becoming one with the sword, about how I should respect the sword and use it respectfully, be careful and be aware of what is around me, all the dojo ethics, that I’m following now even when I train alone at home, because I started to realize the philosophy. Yes, I did have problems about bowing, yes, I did have a lot of problems from religion point of view, I’m not a Buddhist, I’m a Muslim, why should I believe in the seven signs that the ties of the Hakama represent , I then realized that these systems are there because this is thousands of years culture, and it didn’t come from nothing, it came from a system with the goal to build the student in mental and moral with the power, otherwise the student will grow to be a beast with a claw to hurt anyone in his way (or worse not in his way).

Now, my advice to you is to stay, teach these people, give them time, they will respect you because they will see you not only as a fighter who do cool moves and properly they will need a squad to overcome him, NO, they will see you as a teacher who teach a way of life, that everything in it has been set to avoid result to arms, but if it’s arms then I’m ready with minimum intention to hurt, only to protect, and push an ignorant away, keeping him from hurting others and himself.

I know movies are almost the initiator of big part of participants, maybe a session to show these people what is the differences are between real life and movies, how in movies they want to KILL and make it look cool, while in real life you should be as calm and forgiving as it can be.

powerof0ne, you seems a very honest teacher, and I’m afraid these student are losing the best teacher that they can get, and you are losing the best challenge you may get ;)

I would have agreed with this sentiment 5 years ago, but no longer. I moved to the area where I live in 1999. I had no intention of opening a dojo and looked around for a traditional / classical Okinawan karate school in my new area.

I found a school that billed itself as such. The dojo owner was a very nice guy. The "karate" he was teaching was / is total s**t.

But, I thought, once I introduce him to "the real stuff" he will "see the light" and the dojo will transform from a kids school / daycare full of kids doing BS TKD point fighting and gymnastics to a real dojo.

This guy thinks that breaking bricks IS karate. At any rate I worked with this guy for almost 3 years. I tried to lead by example, yet I watched him gouge his students for money. I actually heard him make the statment "I have to figure out a way to get more money out of these people". Bills come due? Time for belt tests!

Bottom line you can't make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If you don't own the dojo, if the owner is wearing XMA stuff and the school is a McDojo, cut your losses and get out... just leave and don't go back.

I'm sure they are nice people. The local guy here is a nice guy, and I even go by and teach HIM alone once in a while, but my advice is leave the school. You are better off training in your backyard.

If you have the wherewithal to open your own dojo than do it. But I'm going to guess that this place is a lost cause.

If you do open your own school DO NOT steal his students, and do not say anything bad about his school or him. If asked just say he is a nice guy, and if pressed that you have a different philosophy about how a school should be run than he does.

TimoS
6th August 2006, 20:46
Interesting discussion here. My advice, our actually our sensei gave us this advice once, is to tell the people to imagine they are bowing to cross or whatever. Mokuso troubling them? Tell those to say a silent prayer to whatever god they happen to worship during it. No idea if any of this would help. Earlier I was quite ready to say also to anyone that doesn't want to bow that fine, go someplace else then, but maybe I could try sensei's advice first and then if that doesn't help, tell them go somewhere else

Jussi Häkkinen
7th August 2006, 08:39
If bowing is an religious issue, I don't see it as necessary. I know some taekwondo athletes who don't bow (they're muslims) and at least one karateka who doesn't bow (other religious issues). It's not a barrier. I wish that everyone will bow, but if there are really strong personal issues against it, one doesn't have to.

Karate itself doesn't suffer if people don't bow. It's just an extra - some cultural role playing added to the class.

Amir
7th August 2006, 08:45
For the sake of argument(and so I dont become religion specific and offend), let me create some made up "Zeus on a cloud". The holy book written by a priest for this Zeus, allegedly after "receiving the words from Zeus himself", says "Zeus said- Worship me and no one else or I'll send your soul to eternal torment, because I love you so much." Lets say that some Zeus-religious leader takes that to mean "If you bow (lowering the head or eyes) then you are worshipping". There is a lot of trouble a follower could get into under this system.

There is the obvious- "Some other god appears and you bow giving praise to his greatness." Well, this is exactly what Zeus didnt want you to do=eternal torment. You meant to worship and did.

There is the other side of the obvious- "You drop a fork on the ground and bend over to pick it up and inadvertantly hit the bowing position" This puts you in quite a pickle, doesnt it? You didnt mean to worship but you did make the physical gesture. I sure hope this Zeus is "fair and just" because if he isn't, you get eternal torment for picking up a fork. You didn't mean to worship.

The difference is "intent".

There is the slightly less obvious- "You see your friend across the mall but are too busy to go talk, he nods his head, you do it back as a sign of friendship and recognition but this fits the definition of a bow." BAM! Eternal torment, thanks for playing. Not quite fair, is it? Here again, I sure hope this Zeus is fair and just, because that bow just kind of slipped out by accident. He did it to you, so you did it back, no harm intended. You didn't mean to worship.

It would sure help it this "intent" thing holds up when Zeus goes to decide your case. Whats OJ's lawyer's name again? "That's not what he meant, no eternal torment!" Is there some sort of appeals process?

Here is a down-right difficult to determine situation- "You are taking a very formal class from a Japanese teacher and instead of greeting each other with a high-five, hand shake, or by reciting poetry, they bow to each other." Eternal torment, eternal torment, eternal torment! You did it, you knew it, gotcha, HA HA! Well, here again, you did bow, no argument there. You just didn't bow as a sign of worship, it is just a custom. If this Zeus is fair and just, surely he can tell the difference between a custom and worshipping. I mean what kind of almighty creator of everything couldn't tell the difference? Is this Zeus great and almighty or silly and pedantic?

I guess if you get busted in this case and get eternal torment, you missed out on eternity with a deity who acts like an 11 year old with social problems. There was no "intent" to worship.

Lets get right down to the line here- "You bow to a Shinto shrine because the teacher tells you to, however, for you it is just an empty gesture since you dont believe in that religion." You are so screwed here! You took part in a religous ritual worshipping another god/concept/whatever. I guess it really depends on how "great and almighty", and "fair and just" this Zeus is. There is a real good case for you to get eternal torment, if someone were really out to get you. The real question is "Is this Zeus out to get you?". Is he like a child sitting on a cloud somewhere dispensing judgement and toying with humanity like we were his playthings. How sick is someone who wants to be with or worship someone who is "out to get them"?

I think it would take a deity who is loving, fair, just, almighty, and forgiving to see that what is in a man's heart is more important than some gesture he might make.

Well, since this Zeus is so out there that he needs so much worshipping all the damn time, occupying his time with sending souls to eternal torment instead of using his almighty powers to relieve some of the suffering in the world, maybe you should quit bowing, dropping forks, and learning heathen arts and go do some worshipping to get in his good graces quick before he "gets ya".

You are secular? are you not?
I am too, but I know enough religious people to understand they would not accept your logic.
I will give one example:
In Judaism one is not allowed to eat milk after meat (for several hours). Since in the Tora it says "do not eat goatee in their mother milk" (poor translation). The Toa does not even say meat in general, yet the custom has come to include it. Theoretically - chicken is allowed, but with time, the custom changed for reasons best translated to: "to avoid misleading others", and today, one may not eat milk after eating chicken either.

The logic you present is that of a secular person. A religious person says: "those are the rulesI was ordered to follow. I can not understand my God, nor his reasons, I could not reason with him about the rules."
Obviously, the above concept is not realistic, and each religious person is actually reasoning with his God via the multiple mediators he chose to follow (his Rabbi/ Priest/Imam ...), but that is not the way the religious people think of it, in their mind - they follow the rules, and at most, consult with more knowledgeable people about the exact requirements of those rules.

I am a Jew. Yet, if you will read the Moslem response above, you would see the same concept.


This may sound strange to you, but one of the participants in an Israeli MA forum I partake in, is a religious orthodox Jew and scholar in the old meaning of the word. He does find his own interpretations based on the wisdom of old (in his case - mostly Mishna and Gmara - which were sealed about 2000 years ago). Since he looked for it, he did find allowances for bowing in Judaism, based on intent and specific allowances written back then. But, this person is an example of the exception, a very smart, intellectual and knowledgeable person who believes in his God and follows his faith in open eyes, most people follow looking through their slits at most.


When looking through our own cultural prespective, it is almost impossible to understand the other.

Amir

Norbert Funke
7th August 2006, 23:13
When looking through our own cultural prespective, it is almost impossible to understand the other.Good point. I would think every post above including mine are clearly through our own perspective.

icynorth
23rd August 2006, 04:08
If I have to abide by their rules in their land. In my dojo they will abide by mine. If their belief system prevents them from doing that, it is their loss.

BushidoUK
23rd August 2006, 12:38
IcyNorth, I agree wholeheartedly

trevorg
23rd August 2006, 15:03
It's all very simple really. Karate is not a religion.

The founder is not a deity.

It is based on honesty and humility.

The following is copied from the Kyokushinkaikan web site, by the daughter of Mas Oyama:

"Some people find that having a shinzen, the shrine in the dojo, and having to pay respect to it somehow disturbing to their religious beliefs. Some religions actually prohibit having a shrine period even for their own practices.

Personally I do not feel any conflict in the dojo, despite being brought up as a Catholic in elementary school and attending another Christian school in Middle School and the American School in High School. Because simply put Karate is not a religion but rather a philosophy; a way of life which could enhance or even deepen one’s religious beliefs if seen in the right spirit. Spirituality is determined by one’s life choices and the interactions with others.

As karate ka, we must and make right choices, choices that are in tune with the Higher Self and that allow us to maintain an open mind and heart towards different opinions. Karate is a tool that can work hand in hand with whatever one’s activities, pathway or faith are. But without practicing the spirituality of karate, it is just a dangerous exercise".


Trevor Gilbert

Jay Vail
2nd September 2006, 00:51
It's already been established in this thread that bowing before anyone but God is not generally permitted in the Muslim faith. As with any other religious group, however, individuals practise their faith differently and do not necessarily adhere to all traditions. As for handshaking, I've never heard of that or experienced it.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=413749&postcount=25


No one has yet cited a passage from the Koran, the Hadith or the Sunnah, which are the foundations of Islamic law and would control whether bowing is forbidden. All we have so far are someone's assertions. Those are not enough to establish whether bowing, as a mere sign of respect in a dojo, is forbidden to Muslims.

PictonMA
2nd September 2006, 05:22
In no way am I an expert on theological matters but what the heck here's my view.

I am of the opinion that the belief of not bowing before anyone / anything but god stems from a misinterpretation of Exodus 20:5 "Thou shalt not bow down before them, nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God." and other passages like this.

What these people fail to reconcile that in many other places the scriptures distinguish between the honour and revereance given to people and the sacred religious devotion given to God alone.

Exodus (and other passages) are talking about violation of the 2nd commandmant - the creation of idols and worshiping them, it is NOT talking about a prohibition on the acts of paying respect to or revering ones fellow man.

jdostie
2nd September 2006, 06:16
As a christian, I have no problem with bows between me and others in the dojo. It's simply a means of showing respect for one another, and doing so in a way that acknowledges the culture from which our system came.

I am somewhat bothered with bowing and the clapping that is practiced - now as part of the culture, but previously to summon the spirits - because it might be "seen" as worship. However, I know that I'm not worshipping the shinza(?) (I'm new to MA, but I think that's the term), so - and I may be rationalizing here, I think I'm ok with it. My real problem comes with if someone from my faith sees me "bowing down" will they think I'm worshipping, and cause them confusion. I'm still working this through, but thus far my position is, and would be - if asked - "I'm not worshipping, and everyone in the dojo knows I'm not worshipping, so I don't have a problem with the formality." If sensei told us "I want you to bow and pray to the founder of our art, and summon the spirits" then I would have a problem, but since he actually said something like "we follow the culture - here is how it developed, but we do it out of respect," I don't think anyone in there is led to believe I am worshipping, which I am not - and my God knows that I'm not worshipping, it seems ok.

Does that make sense?

Brian Owens
2nd September 2006, 06:37
...Does that make sense?
It makes sense to me.

The things that everyone envolved with this thread need to remember, in my opinion, are:

1) None of us practice martial arts exactly as the founders did. We have already done a "pick & choose" over what aspects of Okinawan/Japanese culture we have wanted to keep, and which we've chosen to discard.

2) Religious devotion is a personal matter, and not everyone of a particular faith follows exactly the same practices as all others of the same faith. If a particular person finds some practice to be objectionable, then it is objectionable to them.

3) There is no "on size fits all" answer to the question of how to handle religious objections/concerns in the dojo. Each teacher will have to take each case as it occurs and handle it as he or she sees fit, reconcilling the first two points in his or her fashion.

seskoad
11th October 2006, 18:54
No one has yet cited a passage from the Koran, the Hadith or the Sunnah, which are the foundations of Islamic law and would control whether bowing is forbidden. All we have so far are someone's assertions. Those are not enough to establish whether bowing, as a mere sign of respect in a dojo, is forbidden to Muslims.

There is no law in Qur'an and hadith regarding japanese style bowing. Bowing in praying is different than Japanese even in seiza position. Bowing praying is forehead touches ground and has faith in heart as only to God only.

I am muslim. There are 3 laws in Islam: Al-Qur'an, Hadith (what propheth Muhammad SAW says, do and let it happen) and Ijtihad. For example: in Qur'an says it is forbidden to drink Khamr (alcohol drink) also as in Hadith. Now Ijtihad role is why is khamr is forbidden as world getting more more advance day by day. Ijtihad is conclusion based on Qur'an and hadith, Khamr is forbidden because it gets you drunk, uncontrolled and high. So such things like cocaine then is also forbidden. Islam teach you not too right (extreme) and not too left (secular), but teach you to be in the middle, in other word flexible with boundaries.

Now back to bowing, a muslim scholar told me that as long as it is not as religious purpose. It is not more than as a symbol of respect not as put faith on it. It is nothing more than giving salute to a flag.

Regarding about muslim shaking hands with non muslim. Prophet Muhammad SAW's uncle who help him during Da'wah was non muslim until he died. Now, this uncle was a man who raised and protected him. Prophet loved him very much and also touch him. So unless if you man and woman who is not siblings, then it is said forbidden to touch in skin in normal situation even muslim to muslim. Men and women who is not sibling mostly has some sexual interactions between them. Islam protects people not to have sexual relationship before marriage. So it is oke to touch non muslim as long as siblings (man and woman), marriage and same gender (not as sexual conduct though).

Well my english is very well, if you need more info about Islam. Do your research in internet or go to Islamic center nearby. But remember always takes every true resource as you can. Also remember, Islam always teach being in the middle.

Nyuck3X
11th October 2006, 22:14
Well my english is very well, if you need more info about Islam. Do your research in internet or go to Islamic center nearby. But remember always takes every true resource as you can. Also remember, Islam always teach being in the middle.

I think your English is fine. (Lots better than my Tagalog and German)

Thank-you for the insight. It is well appreciated.

Peace

seskoad
12th October 2006, 16:16
I think your English is fine. (Lots better than my Tagalog and German)

Thank-you for the insight. It is well appreciated.

Peace

I forgot to type "not". It is supposed to be "my english is not very well"

Sorry for that...I usually don't re-reading post that I replied because I think twice in typing it.

Nyuck3X
12th October 2006, 16:22
I knew what you ment... :)

Best regards.

aplonis
13th June 2007, 02:59
The customer is ALWAYS wrong !

Funny but that was the unofficial motto where I once used to work, the Kalamazoo Regional Psychiatric Hospital.

omarr
13th June 2007, 22:10
This is a really interesting thread.

As some posters have already hinted, right now there are a million muslims, (practising or non-practising) who are actively studying martial arts and who have no problem whatsoever with bowing - whether it be bowing to a partner/instructor before sparring or bowing to a shrine/painting/picture etc...

In other words, on the grand scale of things, the 'problem' really isn't a problem! But in the few peculiar instances where a conflict does arise, yes - it is actually quite tricky.

One part of me is extremely sympathetic to the stance expressed by one poster that the only final word on the matter is - to paraphrase - 'my dojo, my rules'! And I don't think that's as unreasonable or uncompromising as it might at first sound. As someone said, perhaps a person with such a conflict really does have to ask if the art - in its entirety - or the dojo where the art is being taught really is for them after all?''

On the other hand, I also find it genuinely encouraging that there have been no knee-jerk reactions along the line of ''these people are always trying this kind of stuff etc...'' And that posters have wondered if making a few concessions for specific individuals might not be such a big deal after all...

Personally speaking - and as an almost totally non-practising muslim(!) - I still lean towards the first scenario or stance. If it really really bothers you that much, maybe you do have to ask yourself a few questions. The truth is that most good things require a bit of sacrifice. Is this thing you want to pursue worth a little (or more) sacrifice?

On a last note, I would also argue that religion is not as uncompromising as it might always seem (unless you are talking about ultra-orthodox/conservative expressions of any religion). Religion does compromise, it always has, right throughout history - for political/economic/cultural reasons. 'Even' with Islam.

What I mean is - and I'm sorry I can't be more example specific -you might well find that the people who have a problem with the bowing issue are almost certainly making other concessions in their life. In other words, they pick and choose!

That's not a bad thing, it's human nature. But in picking and choosing, just don't get too offended when other people (instructors) make their pick - and their choice!

Prince Loeffler
13th June 2007, 23:10
One part of me is extremely sympathetic to the stance expressed by one poster that the only final word on the matter is - to paraphrase - 'my dojo, my rules'! And I don't think that's as unreasonable or uncompromising as it might at first sound. As someone said, perhaps a person with such a conflict really does have to ask if the art - in its entirety - or the dojo where the art is being taught really is for them after all?''



My Dojo is open to anyone and everyone regardless of race, sex and age, just as long you don't tell me how to re-arrange my furnitures.

When you come into my house, you are welcome to eat my food, sleep on my bed , play with my dog, drink my pineapple juice, watch cable...Just don't tell me that my Olivia Newton John poster bother's you and request that I remove it.......

It ain't hard you see ? :p

omarr
13th June 2007, 23:21
My Dojo is open to anyone and everyone regardless of race, sex and age, just as long you don't tell me how to re-arrange my furnitures.

When you come into my house, you are welcome to eat my food, sleep on my bed , play with my dog, drink my pineapple juice, watch cable...Just don't tell me that my Olivia Newton John poster bother's you and request that I remove it.......

It ain't hard you see ? :p


I would never ever ask you to remove your Olivia Newton John poster...!

:)

Prince Loeffler
13th June 2007, 23:33
I would never ever ask you to remove your Olivia Newton John poster...!

:)

Thanks Omarr, But you still have to bow to our shomen ! Regardless of what releigion. No buts or ifs !

omarr
13th June 2007, 23:46
I can bow before that. Grovel even...

Nyuck3X
13th June 2007, 23:49
Nice Shomen Prince!
I have two wrinkled old guys on mine. :rolleyes:

Prince Loeffler
13th June 2007, 23:53
Nice Shomen Prince!
I have two wrinkled old guys on mine. :rolleyes:

Time for change eh ?....... :) :)

john_lord_b3
14th June 2007, 12:30
This is a really interesting thread.

As some posters have already hinted, right now there are a million muslims, (practising or non-practising) who are actively studying martial arts and who have no problem whatsoever with bowing - whether it be bowing to a partner/instructor before sparring or bowing to a shrine/painting/picture etc...

Yep! Me included, and my family has been Muslims for about.....5 generations at the very least.

omarr
14th June 2007, 12:56
Hi mate.

Well again, there you have it! Not to discount the actual problems which the original poster mentioned - they did happen and they do seem to be causing a problem - but I really think these cases are the exception, not the rule...

Btw, are you actually Indonesian?
Just wondering what martial arts you practise...

john_lord_b3
14th June 2007, 13:21
Yep, I am Indonesian, and I love to consider myself as "native", though some blood-mixing are to be expected in a multiracial people such as ours. :) Non-native racial strains which can be found in Indonesia are Chinese, Arabic, Dutch and some Japanese.

Not only we're multiracial, we're multicultural as well.. some relatives from the mother's side of the family are non-Muslims.

These days I practice Wado-ryu and the Dentokan version of Hakko-ryu. I also do a little Kuntao and Silat as well.

What about you, Omar san?

omarr
14th June 2007, 18:57
Yep, I am Indonesian, and I love to consider myself as "native", though some blood-mixing are to be expected in a multiracial people such as ours. :) Non-native racial strains which can be found in Indonesia are Chinese, Arabic, Dutch and some Japanese.

Not only we're multiracial, we're multicultural as well.. some relatives from the mother's side of the family are non-Muslims.

These days I practice Wado-ryu and the Dentokan version of Hakko-ryu. I also do a little Kuntao and Silat as well.

What about you, Omar san?


Hi John.

Never been to Indonesia but I would like to, especially for the food and the silat!

My gf is from southern Philippines, so that's the nearest I've got to Indonesia, if you know what I mean...

My background is basically boxing and thai-boxing but like most folk, I'm generally interested in everything...

You do hakko-ryu? That's interesting because here in Dubai, there was one guy by the name of Mounir Ghrawi. He is, I believe, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan, San Dai Kichu in Hakko Ryu. I'm not sure, but I think he may have studied directly under Soke Okayama. To be honest, it's only recently that I have become interested in the koryu so I am only now starting to get a broad picture/understanding of where these ryu all fit together, who's who, who's claiming what, plus the whole Daito-ryu/Takeda-ryu/Hakko-ryu issue(s)...

No idea what the Dentokan version of Hakko-ryu is, am about to wiki it!

Btw, just going back to the original topic, I take it then that you do bow in somen to Soke Ryuho Okayama? It's really not a problem, is it...

See you around bro...

Chuck.Gordon
15th June 2007, 20:34
Religion has no place in my dojo. If students can't follow the cultural protocols, they are politely invited to train elsewhere, or -- more likely -- are never invited into the dojo in the first place. This stands for Christian, Muslim, Jew or Rastafarian ...

gmanry
16th June 2007, 05:41
Personally I just can't fathom why Muslims have this prejudice against bowling. Bowling is a fine activity and very wholesome for the entire family. Even a woman in a burqa can bowl....

What? Ohhhhhhh....

Nevermind....

john_lord_b3
16th June 2007, 14:14
Hi John.

Never been to Indonesia but I would like to, especially for the food and the silat!


Food? you come to the right guy.. coz I am a glutton :) If you come to Jakarta, I'll show you some of the best places for eating out!




You do hakko-ryu? That's interesting because here in Dubai, there was one guy by the name of Mounir Ghrawi. He is, I believe, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan, San Dai Kichu in Hakko Ryu. I'm not sure, but I think he may have studied directly under Soke Okayama. To be honest, it's only recently that I have become interested in the koryu so I am only now starting to get a broad picture/understanding of where these ryu all fit together, who's who, who's claiming what, plus the whole Daito-ryu/Takeda-ryu/Hakko-ryu issue(s)...


E-mail or PM me, I'll tell you the story as I know it :)



No idea what the Dentokan version of Hakko-ryu is, am about to wiki it!


Try this: www.dentokanhombu.com

We are basically an offshot. My sensei receive Shihan Menkyo from Okuyama Shodai Soke, then after Shodai Soke passed away, my sensei followed Irie Yasuhiro sensei's group and received the Menkyokaiden from him. Again, email or PM me for details.



Btw, just going back to the original topic, I take it then that you do bow in somen to Soke Ryuho Okayama? It's really not a problem, is it...


We don't bow to Shodai Soke's picture. But in my old Wado-ryu Dojo we bowed to the Shomen, and at the Shomen wall there's a picture of Otsuka (our Founder) under the Japanese and Indonesian flag and the organization banner :)

dusty1
18th June 2007, 11:57
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion. I used to teach around 8 Iraqi(muslim too)students a few years back and they had no problem bowing during class. To me, this is kind of disrespectful, because the bowing isn't a religious thing to me at all. The owner of this school agreed to give in and not press them bowing.
What I want to know is, does this really go against there religion and why? I question it because I have taught other people of Muslim faith before and they had no problem bowing.
They also have been training for a few years and are wanting to compete in some tournaments and basically It hink this will create a problem. They will go to a tournament and not want to bow. Sorry if I am offending anyone of Muslim faith because I don't mean to at all. I just want to know why bowing to eachother, and your instructor would go against your religion? I don't have anyone bow to any pictures, symbols, shrines, etc. when I teach, just to eachother or before and after a kata.
Thank you to any of you that can perhaps tell me why individuals of Muslim faith can't bow?
Just answer me this, How can you possibly enter or exit a Dojo without bowing or at the start and end of a class, Kata, Kumite.
Its about time they respected other countries ways and Religions the way we HAVE to RESPECT theirs. If they whant to learn Karate then bowing or REI is part Of learning Karate as much as learning how to tie your Obi the Right way.
You cannot pass a grading without Rei.

Nuff Said

Sorry so angry forgot to sign

Pete Martin

powerof0ne
18th June 2007, 15:05
Just answer me this, How can you possibly enter or exit a Dojo without bowing or at the start and end of a class, Kata, Kumite.
Its about time they respected other countries ways and Religions the way we HAVE to RESPECT theirs. If they whant to learn Karate then bowing or REI is part Of learning Karate as much as learning how to tie your Obi the Right way.
You cannot pass a grading without Rei.

Nuff Said

Sorry so angry forgot to sign

Pete Martin

I agree with you and quit teaching at this school soon after I posted this thread.

ZachZinn
20th June 2007, 06:10
Just answer me this, How can you possibly enter or exit a Dojo without bowing or at the start and end of a class, Kata, Kumite.
Its about time they respected other countries ways and Religions the way we HAVE to RESPECT theirs. If they whant to learn Karate then bowing or REI is part Of learning Karate as much as learning how to tie your Obi the Right way.
You cannot pass a grading without Rei.

Nuff Said

Sorry so angry forgot to sign

Pete Martin


Please don't use this thread as a pointless muslim bashing, it's uncalled for and frankly it just makes you look hot headed and disrespectful yourself.

There are plenty of people who are 'orthodox' on some level of a variety of faiths that might have a problem with bowing.

In the years i've been training karate i've seen a ton of fundamentalist-leaning Christians have similar issues, only with different parts of the training...usually the part they equate with being "occult".

Also, don't assume all traditional karate people put such heavy emphasis on formality, they don't; and you show your own lack of experience by pretending they do.

It's a question of the individual teacher and student and finding a balance, not of complaining about a religion you don't like and pretending it's only them that would have this issue.

edited for meaness

dusty1
20th June 2007, 12:52
Please don't use this thread as a pointless muslim bashing, it's uncalled for and frankly it just makes you look hot headed and disrespectful yourself.

There are plenty of people who are 'orthodox' on some level of a variety of faiths that might have a problem with bowing.

In the years i've been training karate i've seen a ton of fundamentalist-leaning Christians have similar issues, only with different parts of the training...usually the part they equate with being "occult".

Also, don't assume all traditional karate people put such heavy emphasis on formality, they don't; and you show your own lack of experience by pretending they do.

It's a question of the individual teacher and student and finding a balance, not of complaining about a religion you don't like and pretending it's only them that would have this issue.

edited for meaness
My comment was not aimed at being a muslim bashing,
You don't know me so don't try to make me out to be a Karateka with lack of expirence.I was just making a point like every other person on this thread so don't single me out.
How can you teach young children to do one thing whilst they are seeing other people in the same class doing something completely different.In my experience of teaching all this would achieve is confused students.
All I am saying is that it is Dojo etequet the world over that is for everyone.
If a Muslim went over to Japan and refused to Rei on entry to a Dojo then they would not be allowed to enter.
When in Rhome do as the Romans do.

Pete Martin

dusty1
20th June 2007, 13:22
Geoff ! I will make this plain and painless. If you want to go to a dojo that allows you to wear pink underwear without pants because its your religion. More power to you. Now if you try to go to my dojo with that religious extremist attitude in MY dojo. There is only one way ! MINE !

Karate instructors are not store clerks ! You are not my customer. You are here because you want to be part of something. There are no buts or ifs. YOU came to my dojo , I did not come to you and twist your arm to be in my dojo.

Yes, I have turned down many people who refused to accept dojo protocols. Am I being a purist ? Heck ya ! I am proud to be. What's point of preserving an art when one has to change the essense of the system.

Our dojo is our little world preserving the legacy of our founder's karate-do, I don't need you to come and get preachy on equal rights and preferential treatments based of your extreme political and religious beliefs. I believed that you are special just like everyone else. :)

Bottom line is: Its my Dojo and I'll run it the way I want, if other people don't like it , Oh well Vaya Con Dios ! :p
Is he Muslim bashing
No he isn't but all he said is true go and learn a self defence that does'nt require you to rei there are plenty out there.

Pete Martin

jdostie
20th June 2007, 14:18
In the years i've been training karate i've seen a ton of fundamentalist-leaning Christians have similar issues, only with different parts of the training...usually the part they equate with being "occult".


Indeed that's true: I believe I posted on this thread some time ago (or another related thread) that at first I was concerned about it. I, however reasoned that , and this was with my teacher's talking about that it was not worship, as long as it was not worship, and noone was under the pretense that it was, I was OK.

If, I had concluded that I did not want to bow, then it would have been in my teacher's rights to say "I respect your decision not to bow, however because bowing is a required part of what we do, your decision not to bow is also a decision not to practice in this dojo." I might not have liked it, but it would have been entirely within his rights and consistent with the culture I was asking to participate in.

I don't think the previous remark, though written with conviction was intended to be Muslim bashing, but rather an expression of frustration with the PC movement causing a lot of "compromise" to satisfy the "uncompromising." And that's not a bash either, just an attempt to explain that there are sometimes compromises expected (from any number of people for any number of reasons) that would not make a similar accomidation if the shoe were on the other foot. (oh boy, too many cliche's there . . .)

ZachZinn
21st June 2007, 00:01
Is he Muslim bashing
No he isn't but all he said is true go and learn a self defence that does'nt require you to rei there are plenty out there.

Pete Martin


I wasn't talking about his post, I was talking about yours and your vague allusions to "them" not respecting other cultures.

My point is that if you choose to make a "them" and paint everyone with one brush (and it appears that you do to me) you are missing the finer points of what we are talking about.

Apparently just the thought of someone not being entirely comfortable with bowing in class makes you "so angry" that you almost forgot to sign your post. Maybe you need some perspective.

I agree that any instructor has the right to refuse to teach anyone for whatever reason, but I also think that if we want to approach the issue in a rational way we have to be a bit more objective than you are.

Believe it or not, I probably wouldn't teach them either, but if I decided not to it would be based on discussion with the individual and some sort of mutual understanding of the limitations of this sort 'individuality' in the dojo, not on a preconceived notions that muslims are being somehow hypocritical and culturally intolerant for not wanting to bow.

dusty1
21st June 2007, 08:06
[QUOTE=ZachZinn]

Apparently just the thought of someone not being entirely comfortable with bowing in class makes you "so angry" that you almost forgot to sign your post. Maybe you need some perspective.

That isn't what made me angy,
It's the fact that SOME not all Muslims do their best to direspect other ways and religions around the world when we in the UK have to tread very carefully around their cultures.
How would a Muslim react to me if I refused to take my shoes off before entering a mosc?

dusty1
21st June 2007, 08:09
[QUOTE=ZachZinn]My point is that if you choose to make a "them" and paint everyone with one brush (and it appears that you do to me) you are missing the finer points of what we are talking about.

I was refering to THEM who refuse to Rei not THEM in general read the thread carefully before you reply

Prince Loeffler
21st June 2007, 09:14
Gentlemen ! You have both made your points and kudos to both of you, lets the heat simmer down a bit. Shake hands and grab some cold tall heiniken mates !

trevorg
10th August 2007, 10:02
Just to add my twopennyworth.

My view is that the rei is a mark of respect; to the dojo, sensei and fellow students, and not least to the Kamiza if that is available. However, I do understand that a Muslim may not wish to bow to the Kamiza even though it is, again, offering respect and salutation to the founder of the style.

It would be very interesting to have an islamic perspective on this thread. Unfortunately (for some) I am an atheist so I cannot contribute meaningfully but I seem to understand the Koran states “Do not worship Idols” and so the question must be raised; "What is an idol?" These days I believe you make something an idol when you insist that only that thing contains holiness and all other equivalent things are unholy. You insist that that thing carries more importance than living beings and humanity as such. And if I am right in my interpretation/research then asking a Muslim to bow in a dojo should not be offensive to them because we are not placing people or an image (of a founder of style) above any God, although I appreciate some would, from their perspective, believe that to be the case.

The issue is also featured on this site:

http://www.judochampions.com/bowing.html


However, I think the rei can be overdone as I have been in dojos where most of the action seems to be the rei with very little in between. It seems as though some sensei are so riven with etiquette beyond the norm and thus demand it of their students. I have also come across people who take it into the public arena so that they are bowing in the street to their student mates or teacher when they see them. I would go along with this if there was a visiting sensei, Japanese or not, as upon greeting them for the first time I would do this as a matter of courtesy. Especially if it was a Japanese sensei because, notwithstanding they may be visiting the West and therefore should accustom themselves to our normal greeting style (which many do anyway), but they are often likely to bow as well and there is no harm whatsoever in returning the courtesy.

But some of the (English) students I have met take it to extremes and make me feel very uncomfortable indeed. I had a recent experience when I went to a clay pigeon shooting range and it turned out the shooting instructor had been an old student of mine and he greeted me with a bow and addressed me Sensei in front of a large crowd of people , which was entirely inappropriate to the environment in which we were in. Although I fully understand his feelings of respect, I believe there is a time and a place and I always tell my peers and juniors "only in the dojo please".

osu
Trevor

MarkF
11th August 2007, 11:20
Here is a ruling by a federal US judge concerning bowing by judo players. This was about five years ago.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9621&highlight=bowing+muslim

trevorg
11th August 2007, 13:17
Thank you,Mark, I should have had the wit to search first.

Osu
Trevor

CuttingProperly
11th August 2007, 20:40
You're very welcome Brian and just call me Prince. There are some cultures that takes bowing as a gesture of reverences to their god(s). I respect that, however I draw the line when these extremist comes to my personal haven and attempts to get their wills imposed.

I find this very ironic, calling them extremists when you say:


Never give in and compromise the integrity of your dojo's protocol. If you allow them to get their way, what's stopping others from doing the same. If they don't want to bow to the shomen then go someplace else. If they don't want to bow to the sensei go someplace else. If they don;t want to bow to their fellow students, get the heck out of my dojo and start your own.

Bottom line is that its your dojo and the primary rule of your dojo should be " The customer is ALWAYS wrong !

Nuff said !

It simply says in the Qu'ran (and the Torah and the Bible) to never bow to anyone or anything but God. Is following this simple command extremist?

Just as you would not want to compromise your dojo, they would not want to compromise their religion. Saying "get the heck out of my dojo and start your own" sounds slightly more extremist than "I am following a command."

I'm not saying you should compromise your dojo, but making accusations of extremism and showing disrespect is just unnecessary. Simply say that you will not compromise your dojo just as they would not compromise their religion, and let them make a choice. Very simple, with no disrespect involved. I believe this would follow a more "budo" line of thinking as well.

CuttingProperly
11th August 2007, 20:49
I would extend Brians original question. If bowing already is questionable, I would argue that the new students should think about if MA is really something for them. Many other terms (kata names, techniques) eventually have some relationship to the japanese and eventually budhist culture. Do they have a problem with this or does it create a conflict? If the answer is yes, then they should not persue MA at all, if the answer is no, then bowing should not be an issue either.

My sensei is Christian, and when he began teaching he took all of the semi-religious and semi-cultish aspects out. He enforces no religion, but he is the most traditional budo-ist I know in terms of the true meaning. He does not have us bow down to the picture of a founder. He does however keep even all the minute details of the dojo intact since he knows that whether we realize it or not they help us in our martial arts life.

I liked this quote:

Then you have to ask yourself, what am I teaching: bowing or MAs? Even within a traditional atmoshphere.

Of course I am not saying anyone should have to give up the religious aspects of their dojo if they want it. It is again up to the individual sensei and the individual student.

Prince Loeffler
11th August 2007, 21:27
I find this very ironic, calling them extremists when you say:

1) It simply says in the Qu'ran (and the Torah and the Bible) to never bow to anyone or anything but God. Is following this simple command extremist?

2) Just as you would not want to compromise your dojo, they would not want to compromise their religion. Saying "get the heck out of my dojo and start your own" sounds slightly more extremist than "I am following a command."

3) I'm not saying you should compromise your dojo, but making accusations of extremism and showing disrespect is just unnecessary. Simply say that you will not compromise your dojo just as they would not compromise their religion, and let them make a choice. Very simple, with no disrespect involved. I believe this would follow a more "budo" line of thinking as well.

Hi Jack !

1) No , I would not call someone with any name to those who simply who obeys the code of their faith. Pure and simple. However, when I get a bunch of religious "groupies" who comes to my dojo and gets preachy about how to run my school as well as my faith. Heck, I even had one propspective student who felt that I should a picture of George Washington along the pictures of the masters of my dojo's shomen. I didn't realized that my karate lineage went as far back as George Washington. :rolleyes:

2) I don't know any simplied and courteous way of saying it, I speak as I feel. I remember having two christian dudes in my dojo. After discussion the basics of the karate and Dojo function for about 20 minutes. They decided to change the subject and asked me if I believed in the "Rapture" I was bombarded with literatures and speeches about some guy second coming.

The only thoughts that came thru my mind was that, the only "rapture" I can foresee in these guys who continually ambushes me with this crap in their future are their spleens. :)

3) Thanks , I may want to use this for future reference. It seems more like diplomatic way of stopping these religious spammers. :p

Thanks Jack !

CuttingProperly
11th August 2007, 21:54
3) Thanks , I may want to use this for future reference. It seems more like diplomatic way of stopping these religious spammers. :p

Thanks Jack !

It also leaves little room for further unwanted arguments/bombardments, so it kills two demons with one cut :)

np

ZachZinn
12th August 2007, 04:28
http://www.judochampions.com/bowing.html





Hmmm, this site is kind of odd in it's conclusions though, isn't it? things like

"Americans in judo are pretending to be Shinto. It isn't working."

"Today, forced bowing in judo clubs results in subservience (12) and uncritical adherence to ineffective or harmful training techniques."

Both of these sound a little ....crazy to me. Maybe it's just being a karate guy, but I fail to see how either of these conclusions is true. Even though I suppose I am "on the fence" on this issue, this site seems like it's stretching the truth a bit to argue it's own points.

CuttingProperly
12th August 2007, 06:54
Heck, I even had one propspective student who felt that I should a picture of George Washington along the pictures of the masters of my dojo's shomen.

lol that's a new one

Wado-AJ
13th August 2007, 09:16
I and another individual teach part time at a school with some Moroccon(muslim faith)students train. Four kids and two adults and they are adament on not bowing because it goes against there religion. I used to teach around 8 Iraqi(muslim too)students a few years back and they had no problem bowing during class. To me, this is kind of disrespectful, because the bowing isn't a religious thing to me at all. The owner of this school agreed to give in and not press them bowing.
What I want to know is, does this really go against there religion and why? I question it because I have taught other people of Muslim faith before and they had no problem bowing.
They also have been training for a few years and are wanting to compete in some tournaments and basically It hink this will create a problem. They will go to a tournament and not want to bow. Sorry if I am offending anyone of Muslim faith because I don't mean to at all. I just want to know why bowing to eachother, and your instructor would go against your religion? I don't have anyone bow to any pictures, symbols, shrines, etc. when I teach, just to eachother or before and after a kata.
Thank you to any of you that can perhaps tell me why individuals of Muslim faith can't bow?

My teacher told me a similar story. He once had a muslim student who bowed for years and then suddenly he didn't bow anymore. He said to my teacher that he only bows to Allah.

trevorg
13th August 2007, 09:28
My sensei is Christian, and when he began teaching he took all of the semi-religious and semi-cultish aspects out. He enforces no religion, but he is the most traditional budo-ist I know in terms of the true meaning. He does not have us bow down to the picture of a founder. He does however keep even all the minute details of the dojo intact since he knows that whether we realize it or not they help us in our martial arts life.

I liked this quote:


Of course I am not saying anyone should have to give up the religious aspects of their dojo if they want it. It is again up to the individual sensei and the individual student.


That's a first for me. I didnt realise there were any religious aspects to a dojo ? From my experience I have never ever come across any dojo of any kind of any art or any style where the subject of religion has raised its head.

In 35 years I have also never had the experience of having a discussion or observing religious beliefs in a dojo, either from teacher or student.

On this basis, there is no foundation to the argument because if any student is unwilling to follow the dojo protocol then all they have to do is go somewhere else.

When I began, like all new students I found the bowing aspect very alien to me but once I realised it was only a mark of respect that was it as far as I was concerned.

Osu
Trevor

john_lord_b3
13th August 2007, 09:34
My teacher told me a similar story. He once had a muslim student who bowed for years and then suddenly he didn't bow anymore. He said to my teacher that he only bows to Allah.

I am sure his interpretation of Fiqh (Islamic law) is much different with mine :) I have asked many Muslim scholars in my country about bowing to teachers to show respect, and they all said "as long as it isn't worshipping a person or an idol as a god, japanese martial art are mubah (allowed)".

dusty1
13th August 2007, 11:56
That's a first for me. I didnt realise there were any religious aspects to a dojo ? From my experience I have never ever come across any dojo of any kind of any art or any style where the subject of religion has raised its head.

In 35 years I have also never had the experience of having a discussion or observing religious beliefs in a dojo, either from teacher or student.

On this basis, there is no foundation to the argument because if any student is unwilling to follow the dojo protocol then all they have to do is go somewhere else.

When I began, like all new students I found the bowing aspect very alien to me but once I realised it was only a mark of respect that was it as far as I was concerned.

Osu
Trevor
That was all I said earlier in this thread and got told I was Muslim bashing.It is the Japanese version of shakeing hands (a sign of respect)


Pete martin

trevorg
13th August 2007, 15:24
Once religion and politics get discussed it all goes awry, say I.

The dojo is no place for anything except training. I've been in one dojo where the Sensei says nothing, just looks and points and as for students questioning everything, well his icy stare just stops them short.

Osu
Trevor