Kyokushin karate and taikiken

[acquachescorre]

Hi,
has anyone ever heard about a challenge between M.Sawai and M.Oyama (and also between 10 of their students) which is supposed to be occurred as soon as M.Sawai came back to Japan from China?
According to Kenji Tokitsu, this is the reason of the following adoption of the TKK principles in the Kyokushinkai style, as both M.Oyama and his students were easily beaten :confused:
I haven't found any evidence of this on the net, anyone knows more about?
Which part has Taikiken in the Kyokushin training? How much is still practiced?

Thanx

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[edg176]

Hi,
There are some vidoes on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search=taikiken&search_type=search_videos&search=Search

I think Matsui Shokei is in some of them.

[trevorg]

Hi,
has anyone ever heard about a challenge between M.Sawai and M.Oyama (and also between 10 of their students) which is supposed to be occurred as soon as M.Sawai came back to Japan from China?
According to Kenji Tokitsu, this is the reason of the following adoption of the TKK principles in the Kyokushinkai style, as both M.Oyama and his students were easily beaten :confused:
I haven't found any evidence of this on the net, anyone knows more about?
Which part has Taikiken in the Kyokushin training? How much is still practiced?

Thanx

Taikiken sounds suspiciously like Tai Chi Chen to me, see my post on other thread.
Trevor Gilbert

[trevorg]

Hi,
There are some vidoes on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search=taikiken&search_type=search_videos&search=Search

I think Matsui Shokei is in some of them.

I always think that when you see discussions like this where the implication is that it is surprising Kyokushin fighters were beaten, is that it is not the system but the man who is fighting that will determine the winner.
Trevor Gilbert

[edg176]

1. Taikiken is the Chinese pronunciation for Taijiquan, but just to confuse things, the founder of Taikiken learned YiQuan in China.

2. It's not surprising that one of the Taikiken guys got the better of Matsui at certain points. It happens. My understanding is that the footage is over 10 years old. What is surprising to me is that no one guarded their head better, but <shrug> whatever.

It's not like it was a total beatdown, Matsui did drill a few of those guys pretty hard with his roundhouse, and a few throws.

3. Re: Trevor's point, that it's the man not the system. Well the system makes the man. The larger the sample of fighters, the more you can see whether the system is effective at making fighters.

[Jason H.P. Yoo]

3. Re: Trevor's point, that it's the man not the system. Well the system makes the man. The larger the sample of fighters, the more you can see whether the system is effective at making fighters.

Not necessarily. It could also be the case that the larger the sample of fighters, the more one can see how effective the system is at selecting the people who happen to tend to be made good fighters.

How does one separate selection effect from treatment effect in comparing these things? Beyond that, how does one separate treatment effect from the system's techniques from other treatment effects?

[Luisan]

1. Taikiken is the Chinese pronunciation for Taijiquan, but just to confuse things, the founder of Taikiken learned YiQuan in China.


1.- Taijiquan = Taikyokuken; not Taikiken

2.- I think the guy fighting with Matsui is Shimada. (http://taikiken.org/michio_shimada.html) A very skilled Taikiken master.

[edg176]

Luis,
I totally misspoke on that post. Too bad the edit feature is down, or I'd delete it. I'd meant to say "Japanese pronunciation," but that's still wrong. You're right, I misread the characters. Stupid!

Jason,
It's hard, one way to do it is to look at the training method Olympic combatives (fencing, boxing, wrestling, judo, tkd etc) use, since there's a lot of money on the line and they can afford the best in trainers. Also there is a lot of university exercise physiology support for martial arts, in Asia.

I would say though that the other method of testing is to look at what training methods are failures. You can do that by looking at people who've trained as hard as possible in their style, and then still failed in a mixed style competition. Is it perfect? No, obviously it's not the same as the battlefield or even the county jail. But ringsports still an arena that allows regularized testing.

How do we test for selection effects? See above. I guess if you wanted to set up a study you could also look at the recovery rates, O2 uptake, fast twitch muscle percentage etc of the athletes in a variety of arts.

Finally, I think you're right about the "other treatment effects." Conditioning is very important. But I'd say, conditioning is pretty key as far as developing a fighting system. Anything that neglects that, in my opinion, is garbage.

I don't buy the argument that some people are just studying "for self defense," so they don't need to be in shape. Taking a cue from Matt Thornton, the biggest killer of Americans is heart disease. Therefore, if a person is worried about "self defense," i.e. self preservation, they'd be smart to be in good shape to avoid coronary disease. In that case, being able to fight is just a bonus.

[trevorg]

1. Taikiken is the Chinese pronunciation for Taijiquan, but just to confuse things, the founder of Taikiken learned YiQuan in China.

2. It's not surprising that one of the Taikiken guys got the better of Matsui at certain points. It happens. My understanding is that the footage is over 10 years old. What is surprising to me is that no one guarded their head better, but <shrug> whatever.

It's not like it was a total beatdown, Matsui did drill a few of those guys pretty hard with his roundhouse, and a few throws.

3. Re: Trevor's point, that it's the man not the system. Well the system makes the man. The larger the sample of fighters, the more you can see whether the system is effective at making fighters.

In my small view, a good big'un will beat a good little'un any time, doesnt matter what system they come from.

As to representative systems, you could only possibly find out who is the better fighter if you had two of exactly the same ability and were 100% perfectly matched, which is just about impossible. In any case there is always one fighter who will win on the day: best described by the words of Yamanashi Sensei after winning his 5th consecutive Judo national championship; "Winning, in whatever you do, is a very temporary experience. All down to form on the day and if you are lucky enough to ‘win’, be glad because on another day, at another time, you would not have been so lucky".

Regarding the footage, personally speaking I wasn't all that impressed. Two different fighters, two different systems, probably two different levels of ability, but the bottom line is we've all got two feet, two knees, two hands, two elbows and a head. It all depends how you use them when you seize the moment (spot the winning opening).

Trevor