Are you an Olympian?

[George Hyde]

Hi All,

Encouraged by the quality of debate on the randori competition question, I thought I'd throw this one out for consideration.

Taken from a recent WSKO Newsletter, this was (I believe) written by Arai Sensei...


From the WSKO Newsletter
In many countries, there is a tendency to discriminate against non-Olympic sports and martial arts.
One can guess that the way of thinking of national bureaucrats is the same everywhere. To the state, if you look closely, sports seem to be nothing more than a means to boost national prestige. That sort of thing is a problem in the countries where Shorinji Kempo is being propagated.

In Japan, every year in the month of August, the All Japan High School Baseball Tournament is held. Teams culled from among about 4,100 high schools participate in the tournament as representatives of their prefectures. Among the private schools, there are some places that scout superior athletes from around the country in order to have their teams compete in the tournament and bring fame to the school's name. This phenomenon is quite widespread. To put it in extreme terms, these are examples of baseball teams and other athletic programs being used as tools for the business of the schools. Shorinji Kempo is not currently an Olympic event. There are even some countries which have federations that WSKO recognized as national federations, but because Shorinji Kempo is not an Olympic event, they are not recognized by their countries as independent federations.

Shorinji Kempo is wonderful, but the reality is that events which have no connection to boosting national prestige either get very little national aid or get no support whatsoever. This tendency is even more pronounced when it comes to developing countries. Will Shorinji Kempo propagate around the world with the goal of becoming an Olympic event, or will it continue forth sticking solely to its traditional existence as a martial art without regard for victory or medals that seeks to educate human beings?

As we face the 21st century, we should prudently and seriously study the subject of whether or not there might also be a third way.


The randori competition thread covers a lot similar ground, but I believe that this deserves separate consideration since the current Hombu debate, as I understand it, has more to do with embu in the Olympics rather than randori.

So...
Is Olympic recognition a natural progression?
Is it necessary?
What will it do for/to Shorinji Kempo?
Is there a "third way"?

Later,

[Cailey Barker]

It's a constant debate...especially in Indonesia where they wanted to enter into the olympics. As I see it, the pros and cons are..

pros
Better recognition
Publicity
Increased membership
Increased financial support
Better embu

cons
Less control over standards
Too much concentration of embu practise (as is sometimes the case with japanese university clubs)
loss of balance of training

In my opinion its always difficult to assess something unless its tried and tested. A number of other martial arts have already gone down this route and subsequently their main focus has become competition. While the benefits are huge, the dangers are very significant. Shorinji Kempo stands out because of its traditionality and broad coverage over a number of training aspects (philosophy, zazen etc.) If it entered the olympics, even with a good degree of control, these elements would become diluted. Unfortunately I have suffered from this in the past from my experience of embu. The benefit of increased practise is great up to a point...then it begins to decrease. Unfortunately, now I get very little benefit from embu practise and has often been a hinderence to my other training. If there was someway to counter-act this then it would be worth considering entering into the olympics. I'm open to suggestions...

[Steve Williams]

Hi Cailey and welcome (thats the "official" stuff done with :D )

I would feel about this topic (in answer to Georges questions) that:
1, Olympic recognition is not a natural progression at all, we are learning/ training in a martial art and self-defence system not a sport, there are no other "traditional" MA styles at the olympics with the exception of Judo and Tae-kwon do (boxing is MA in its truest sense but is now a sport due to the many rules imposed on it).
Judo in the olympics is so "bogged down" in rules and regulations that olympic judo is not "mat judo" which is practiced in many dojo (look at the Judo section here and some of the posts by judoka will bear this out).
Tae-kwon do in the olympics was ....well it was not tae-kwon do, and it was not MA/ self defence.

2, I would think that at the present time it is very unnecessary to seek olympic "sport" status.

3, Look what it has done for judo and tae-kwon do, yes they are extremely well known throughout the world, but there are people practicing who do so from a pure competition point of view, they have no idea of good self-defence let alone a concept of Budo (or any of the philosophical concepts related to MA or to Shorinji kempo in particular).

4, I don't know if there is a third option, if anyone has any ideas as to what the third option might be then let us know.


As a final thought: If olympic recognition is so great for martial arts then why are Karate, Aikido, Jujitsu etc... not signing up to be a part of it??


Be Well and merry Christmas :santa:

[Gary Dolce]

I have to agree with Steve. I believe Shorinji Kempo is much more than just a physical discipline and I suspect most of the other Kenshi on this forum would agree. It is hard to imagine that it would not become just another sport if we moved in that direction. In fact, I recall at some point in the past seeing a translation of a speech from Kaiso in which he commented negatively on the fact that judo had at one time been intended as a method for moral improvement, but that most of the spiritual component of the teaching had been lost as it became a sport. This strikes me as a very strong condemnation of the idea.

Is there any other Olympic sport that professes to also be a spiritual/philosophical discipline? The ideas seem incompatible to me.

I love watching the Olympic games. At times, they really do seem to transcend the everyday pettiness of human behavior. The ideal is great, but at the same time, the temptation for corruption of that ideal seems to be overwhelming. Do we want to attract people to SK for the potential glory of a gold medal? Do we want to encourage the kind of nationalism that the games seem to encourage? Do we want the additional politics and scandals that seem to go with it?

I don't know if there is a "third way". But I am disturbed at the idea that, in order to increase membership and recognition, we would pursue a path that emphasizes sport at the expense of our philosophical ideals.

[John McCulloch]

Where do we get the steroids from? :look:

Seriously though, my take on Arai-sensei's comments was that he was thinking out loud about ways to make Shorinji Kempo better known, to get greater public awareness of what we do. If his comments lead to more debate within the Shorinji Kempo organization then that is a good thing.

It is over 20 years since Kaiso passed away - perhaps we need to re-evaluate ourselves from time to time in order to more fully appreciate what it is that we are trying to do.

Gassho,

[Thomas Fontaine]

As to any possible "third way..."

I would like to start out by stating my discomfort with the notion of Shorinji Kempo becoming an Olympic event. It would seem, from the other comments already made on this thread, that many kenshi share my apprehension. It would seem an awkward marriage at the best of times, but in recent years, with all the corruption and overblown commercialism of the Olympic movement, it seems like a very bad idea indeed.

The WSKO newsletter article seemed to suggest that one desirable aspect of Olympic affiliation would be increased national recognition(for Shorinji Kempo in individual countries). I would like to offer an alternative- a third way, if you like - Instead of looking for the answer in the physical/competitive elements of Shorinji Kempo, why not emphasize the human development/community service aspect?
Have Shorinji Kempo branches-and entire national federations where they exist- seek tax free status as not-for-profit community organisations. We could expand on our Kaiso day-type activities, coordinate national fundraising efforts and so on. As I understand from my years in Japan (please correct me if I am mistaken!), Shorinji Kempo enjoys special tax consideration as a religious organisation. While this may not be a good fit in some countries, the recognition that could come from a more visible presence as some kind of service organisation could be tremendous.
In this way, we could keep to our 'roots', maintain our integrity (hopefully!) and expand as an organisation.

[Cailey Barker]

It's an idea...but unfortunately the religious tax-free status that Japan enjoys is subject to a number of requirements (buddhist ceremonies etc.). If you translate the Japanese Dokun, the third part ("Dokun") is very buddhist. In order for other countries to have the same status they would have to follow this path. Something I doubt possible. I have had a few students leave in the past because the philosophy conflicted with their christian ideals. Also, although a lot of kenshi enjoy the philosophy a large number disagree with parts of it (especially when you get into the dharma aspects).

I'm sorry to say that religious status would open up a whole new can of worms.

However, fund-raising/charity I'm in full favour of. BSKF has done it on a number of occasions. It also gives publicity and increases membership a little. A remember a long time ago when a rather attractive female TV presenter joined in the sponsered kicks...that certainly drew in the crowds (I seem to remember having louder kiai that day, too!).

[Thomas Fontaine]

Thanks for your commentary...just a few words to clarify my thoughts:

I realize that the unique status enjoyed by Shorinji Kempo in Japan may not be suitable in all countries. I am certain, furthermore, that any consideration as a "non-profit organisation", "charity", "community service group" or what have you, would depend entirely upon the existence of these kinds of entities (from a legal perspective) in the many countries where Shorinji Kempo is active.

I do not believe that it is necessary to limit ourselves to the religious sphere. My own experience (in terms of living and working) has so far been limited to Canada, Japan and South-East Asia. Perhaps there are different types of organisation - in the UK or elsewhere - that might be a good fit for Shorinji Kempo and also provide for some added recognition/opportunity/presence?

[George Hyde]

Hi All,

I'd like to echo much (if not all) of the above contributions.


Originally posted by Gary Dolce
The ideal is great, but at the same time, the temptation for corruption of that ideal seems to be overwhelming.

Couldn't agree more. Olympic recognition would seem to offer many desirable benefits, but it would certainly be a case of selling our collective soul to the devil.


Is there any other Olympic sport that professes to also be a spiritual/philosophical discipline? The ideas seem incompatible to me.

What about kyudo? I never pay much attention to the Olympics but do remember hearing that the Japanese had a particularly good archery team. I'd be surprised if none of them had studied kyudo at some time. (Anybody know this for sure?) I suspect that if this is the case, they would have been competitive archers first and kyudoka second - true devotion to kyudo should have extinguished any desire to take part in the Olympics.

Later,

George

[Cailey Barker]

Couldn't agree more George...However, as kyudo's main objective of training is hitting a target anyway they wouldn't have to alter their training too much. Obviously the spiritual element is very strong (more than most martial arts) but the actual practise is not such a large deviation. (Compared to competetive Shorinji Kempo randori, that is).

Personally, I don't think it would be such a huge detrimental effect to the kyudoka...only perhaps to the target!!

[George Hyde]

Hi Cailey,

I think if you said that to a kyudo master you might find yourself doing a bit of target practice (practising to be a target that is) :)

Hitting the target is the objective of kyujutsu (or Olympic archery) in kyudo the kyudoka (or rather his weaknesses, pride, fears, ego, etc..) is the target.

Later,

George

[Cailey Barker]

I can see this is going to turn nasty...(only kidding).
Yes, I know the principles behind the art and what they mean. I was referring to their practise. The few sessions of kyudo I've attended and the various classes I've observed practised very little of the anything else but target hitting. All the spiritual side is incorporated into the practise (of target hitting). I know this is an over-generalisation, but the point I was trying to make was that the actual "doing" is not so dissimilar (the theory and objective behind them is obviously different). Unfortunately, in this day and age, the "doing" often takes presidence. Even in Shorinji kempo most kenshi don't start to follow its main objective until after a few years practise...and that's with constant howa lectures and a comprehensive philosophy book.
....what was the debate about again?

[hwijaya]

Hi all,

I came from Indonesia and I want to share some information about Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia. Shorinji Kempo is one of the participants in National Sports Event, conducted every 2 years. Shorinji Kempo (SK) has spread all over the 27 provinces in Indonesia. SK has a solid organization and well organized. In addition, every year SK has its own dojo/branch competition, which includes Embu and Randori.

However, Indonesia wants to participate actively also in ASEAN games, and ASIAN games, and Olympic and hopefully can move to higher ranks among the countries that participate in those events.Therefore, the government pays more attention to other MA such as Karate, Judo, Taekwondo, Boxing with the expectation to get many gold medals.

After reading all the comments, I agree with Steve's. SK should be the MA not sport.

BTW, I live in Los Angeles now, and I would appreciate if anyone could help me with the address of SK branch in LA?
Thank you very much in advance.
Regards,

Johanes H. Wijaya

[Steve Williams]

Shorinji Kempo (SK) has spread all over the 27 provinces in Indonesia. SK has a solid organization and well organized. In addition, every year SK has its own dojo/branch competition, which includes Embu and Randori.
This shows the strength of Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia, I believe the largest Shorinji organisation outside of Japan?


Therefore, the government pays more attention to other MA such as Karate, Judo, Taekwondo, Boxing with the expectation to get many gold medals.
So even with only a little government attention Shorinji Kempo has grown so strong in Indonesia, it shows that an effective MA can be strong on its own merits.


I agree with Steve. SK should be the MA not sport.
I have been convinced of this fact since I started training, (thanks for the agreement :D )


I live in Los Angeles now, and I would appreciate if anyone could help me with the address of SK branch in LA?
The only US Shorinji Kempo kenshi who posts here regularly is Gary Dolce, he is not based in LA, but may have contacts there, Anders may have a contact in LA (he has contacts everywhere :) ). Alternatively go here http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/list/usa.html (the list is sometimes not updated, so info may be old).
BTW Welcome Johanes to e-budo

[Anders Pettersson]

Hi Johanes and welcome to e-budo.

A little thread drift but to answer your question about Shorinji Kempo in Los Angeles.
If you follow this link http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/list/usa.html
you will find a list of all US branches, some of them doesn't have their address there yet, but there is at least two in the LA area with contact info.


Beaten by Steve again :cry: , don't you ever practice? I think you spend all your time in front of the computer nowadays. :D



[Edited by Anders Pettersson on 12-14-2000 at 03:46 PM]

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Anders Pettersson
Beaten by Steve again :cry: , don't you ever practice? I think you spend all your time in front of the computer nowadays. :D

Sorry Anders :up:

Yes train on Thursdays but finish at 9pm, just got in, wife is out, bored, logged on, POSTED FIRST :laugh:

Merry Christmas :santa:

:nin: :toot: :moon: (no reason for these, just thought the new smilies are funny)

[George Hyde]

Hi All,

UK news yesterday announced the formation of a national union of British athletes. I can't find a comprehensive internet source for the report but here's the basic details.

Apparently, in an effort to ensure future funding and support for (recognised) amateur sports of all kinds, the union has been formed to act as a pressure group to lobby all the major public and sporting governing bodies. They have even gone so far as to say that in order to further the well being of individual sporting disciplines and individual sportsmen and women, strike action is a viable option.

Support for the formation of the union has increased as a result of Diane Modhal's recent failed attempt to obtain damages for the unjust doping allegations made against her. Provision of financial support for such actions is also an aim of the union.

I have little enthusiastic interest in sports in general, but I think this is a positive move for British sportsmen and women. However, it makes me even more determined that this arena is no place for Shorinji Kempo.

Any other thoughts?

Later,

[Daniel Latham]

I stopped paying attention to the Olympics when synchronized swimming became a sport. It would be much better here in the U.S. if the government doesn't "recognize" Shorinji Kempo.

Johanes - I have an program from a 1998 seminar which lists the Los Angeles branch master and address as:
Hirokazu Yamamori
1137 N. Walnut Glove Ave
Rosemead, CA 91770
(626) 288-9841
(626) 280-4031 FAX


Dan Latham
South Oregon branch

[Kimpatsu]

Hi, all.
Nearly a year late, but here's my tuppenceworth:
As soon as an activity enters the Olympics, it cases to be a martial art, and becomes a sport. Dropping the "Do" component is a prerequisite for sport, after all. Self-development vs. competition, and all that. Personally, I think the problem lies with the English terminology. I dislike the term "martial art," because it's too broad. I can think of at least four Japanese words. all of which are translated as "martial art": Budo, bujutsu, kakutogi, and bugei. Of these four, bugei is the closest to "martial art," as the "gei" means "art" in the sense of painting, sculpting, etc. It actualy comes from the days when someone would go to the marketplace and perform feats like brick-breaking and spear-bending to entertain the crowds, and then pass the hat around at the end.
BTW, at the 1993 World Taikai, in her keynote speech, Kancho said that Shorinji Kempo followed the ideals of the founder, and so would NEVER become an Olympic sport. Anyone else remember that?
All the best,
Tony Kehoe

[Colin]

Tony,

I was at the 93 Taikai but I can’t remember Kanco’s speech that well. She certainly could have said it as I have heard this sentiment expressed a number of times. I have no doubt at all that it would not be something Kaiso would have liked.

Personally I have no desire for SK to become a sport, as I am involved in enough of these. I like to practice for the simple pleasure I receive from the act of practising, and the chance to socialise with good friends.

Cheers
Colin Linz

[Kimpatsu]

Cheers, Colin,
Thank you for the vote of confidence. BTW, where are you based?
:wave:
Best,

[Colin]

Tony,

I have just recently moved to QLD in Australia, I’m about 50 kilometres north of Brisbane.

Cheers
Col

[Daniel J Hulme]

Gassho,

Hi all,

I believe that Shorinji Kempo is a great product, but most of all I believe in Dharma. And so utimatlly I believe that great products will succeed (what we put in, we get out, etc)

Kaiso's idea was not to radically and instantly change peoples view towards oneanother, but rather to educate gradually on an individual basis.

Shorinji Kempo has grown so much over the past 50 years, even though we adopt the policies that we do (such as not to make money etc).

Becoming an olimpic activity I feel would change the nature of what we are about, and I would rather see a steady increase in popularity, than to shoot for glory and fail. Our ultimate ideals and goals for Shorinji Kempo may not appear in our lifetime, but I feel that they will appear.

We are on an exponential path, at the moment it may still be slow rising, but the more people introduced (correctly) to Shorinji Kempo, the more people they will introduce, and so on.

I believe that there is a third option, and many other options as well - but they will manifest themselves in time, and when the time is right.

In one year our Dojo (UCL) has double in membership.....maybe it was luck, or maybe it is just the gradual progress of a great product!

Always open to opinion.

See you in the dojo!

Daniel