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Gil Gillespie
11th June 2000, 22:02
My budo training (Aikido & Iaido) ranks only beneath the joys of my wife and daughter in my life. I love my career as a scenic artist but the joys there are sporadic. Budo and my family are eternal joys.

Yet as an overweight arthritic surgically repaired over-50, my budo is necessarily smaller now. What to do? Whatever I can do to stay out there and still train! Sometimes I must fade to the sidelines and observe (a great learning tool, by the way). Sometimes I work on the essential principles and movememt of technique without the big ukemi the younger guys are so fortunate to perform.

How does this address your ability to train? Are you training while an injury heals? Are you dealing with a body that no longer responds to your 18-yr-old image of yourself? Are you able to train joyfully within your limits?

Gil

TommyK
12th June 2000, 04:33
Hi Gil,

I just posted the following travils to Joe Svinth on a recent e-mail. I'm going to turn 50 this coming December, and have been studying in our school of Korean karate and Self-Defense for 15 years. We incorporate traditional karate ('Shotokan lite'), Judo and Aikido elements in our training.

I suffered four. what I thought were 'slight', injuries since January of this year. However cumulatively, they have caused me considerable pain. Then I realized that I should not be in pain, all the time, and I should not be icing my arm down before and after class. I finally tired of this and sought the proper medical attention. The results are:

-Tendonitis and bursitis in BOTH shoulders.
-A highly visible, on the X-rays, bone chip in the right shoulder.
-A subflexor separation of the right shoulder. (This means that the shoulder did not 'pop' out of the socket, it just got strained beyond its normal limits.)
-Severly strained, if not ripped, rotator cuffs in BOTH shoulders.
-A ripped biceps muscle in the right arm, although in all fairness, it was a re-rip, as I had done this before. (8 years ago.)

I start physical therapy this week, as I have put surgery down as the LAST option. I still intend to train 3 times a week, I just won't take falls on my shoulder anymore, (lol, as the falls on my shoulder were my fault, not bad throws) and I'll do more teaching, then training for a while.

Hopefully, the therapy will work, and then I can start light weight lifting and pushups again.

Well Gil, it could be worse, but as the Founder of our school said: "If an arm is injured, practice your kicks, if a foot is injured, practice your wrist moves and/or punches, and so on."

You also, as you stated, observe a lot by watching and you enhance your own skills by teaching.

Hope you recover fast!

Regards,
TommyK


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Tommy K. Militello

socho
12th June 2000, 05:08
Hi Gil and Tommy,
Guess I number among the geriatric, broken-down martial artists also (wasn't that a comic book?). Sometimes, and I think this may be what Gil was alluding to, "recovery" is not an option. What adjustment do you make in your expectation of yourself when physical limitations are imposed upon you? How can/does that affect your mental health/self-image? A long-time TKD guy, I did major damage to my knee and ACL several years ago. After a couple of surgeries, I get around ok, but running is not much fun and intensive TKD training or any sport with lots of lateral stress on the knee is a bad idea. Quit? Give up?
I lucked out and found two different schools of Japanese sword arts. One is still a strain on the knee, but sensei allows me to make adjustments. The other has no kneeling forms at all! I have earned Dan ranks in both styles at my advanced and broken down age (of course it helps that Japanese have more respect for age).
Whatever happens, if martial arts are important to you, keep training. I fully expect to be doing this as long as I can swing a sword. Nakamura-sensei is 88 years old and I watched him do a cutting demonstration at a competition yesterday. Also saw him do finger-tip push-ups during a warm-up.

Internal growth continues, even when physical strength wanes.


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Dave Drawdy

[This message has been edited by socho (edited 06-12-2000).]

12th June 2000, 05:11
I'm not sure what to say, but keep working at a pace you can handle. I am currently 47 years old, and I've retired from a fairly active judo competition career. What is amazing is that I had to work back from being wounded at age 19 in Vietnam. I know it sounds hokey, but there was a time when I thought I would never walk again without a cane. Being in my early 20s, I just couldn't accept that I would have to give up physical activities, including judo. So I had to pass on the Olympic dream, I was still able to win a few state and regional tournaments. I even competed internationally on a couple of occasions. Recently, I broke my right leg at the knee. Compounded with all my previous injuries, I now have arthritis in the joint where the bone was fractured. Sometimes I have to break out my old cane to walk, but I still try to work out on a regular basis. I just use a lot of anti-inflammatory medications and analgesic balms. Set your own goals and stop trying to stay up with the 20 year olds. It isn't realistic. Your main obstacle should be your self. I hope this helps. If not, try ice for the first 24 hours, then use heating pads. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

Joseph Svinth
12th June 2000, 09:44
Sitting on the floor watching everybody else provides an interesting perspective, actually, as it allows you to watch their feet. When you watch boxing on TV, all they ever show you are the hands. Yet the power and the distancing comes from the feet, not the hands; the hands just go along for the ride. Anyway, the best way to see this is to put your feet up on the wall in a V-stretch, thus allowing you to do two things at once, namely stretch and watch the feet.

Also, as I told Tommy in response to that e-mail he mentioned, sometimes injuries are God's way of telling us that we're doing something wrong. Sure, as you get older things fall apart, but sometimes you're doing something wrong, and after awhile your body goes on strike. So learn a different way of doing the thing. No, you may not be able to kick to the head any more, but hey, if you learn to crowd a bit, who cares -- after you kick 'em in the groin a couple times, they quit kicking high, too. Then it settles down to boxing, and in boxing the power is the last thing to go...

Likewise, if you do judo, odds are you have bad knees. So quit doing the Olympic throws and start improving your newaza. (Ya think maybe Maeda being in his 40s when he started teaching jujutsu to the Gracies had anything to do with all that groundwork? Hmm.)

And, if worst comes to worst, there's always taiji.

(PS -- I'm 43 and recovering from a really nasty case of sciatica. Now, as you get older recovery gets slower, too, so it becomes increasingly important to avoid the injury in the first place.)

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

MarkF
12th June 2000, 09:48
Don and I got to know each other by discussing "war" injuries (OK, his really were war injuries. Mine were on the mat, but you get the idea). I am just about to top the age of the "Hole-in-the-wall gang" (50) and I could run down a list of injuries which would scare me. I have adjusted to doing waza I can do, kata, and teaching. By adjusting my training, I was able to take off thirty pounds which did my arthritic and multiple disc herniated spine a favor. Now, they say it is "only" arthritic and I don't need surgery, although I have been that route and the surgeon was correct to the year when I would again encounter problems. Life is full of adjustments and budo (judo) is no different. I may not be able to compete anymore, but some of my students do, so the satisfaction of their participation is there. So as to stay involved, I was certified to officiate at the local and state level. That is also fun. I get to utilize my full range of Japanese terminology, but I still have to make sure I know what to call by reviewing. There are indeed many ways to stay involved. Learning and teaching what was always forbidden is also a challenge so while my physical training level has changed, it has not dropped off entirely.

BTW: Don, you broke your leg recently? Sorry to hear it.

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Mark F. Feigenbaum

hyaku
12th June 2000, 12:01
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gil Gillespie:
My budo training (Aikido & Iaido) ranks only beneath the joys of my wife and daughter in my life. I love my career as a scenic artist but the joys there are sporadic. Budo and my family are eternal joys.

Yet as an overweight arthritic surgically repaired over-50, my budo is necessarily smaller now. What to do? Whatever I can do to stay out there and still train! Sometimes I must fade to the sidelines and observe (a great learning tool, by the way). Sometimes I work on the essential principles and movememt of technique without the big ukemi the younger guys are so fortunate to perform.

How does this address your ability to train? Are you training while an injury heals? Are you dealing with a body that no longer responds to your 18-yr-old image of yourself? Are you able to train joyfully within your limits?

Gil<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Mr Gillespie

I'm well over 50 too and have had my share of injuries which I seem to have recovered from. I have slowed down a bit but then again it's not how fast you move, but when you move that is of the essence isn't it. I'm thrilled to be my age an able to do a lot of things I could never have done when I was younger because I was so imature and unknowing

In Japan there is a distinction between ages. For example the purpose expectations of a 20 to 30 year olds is different to a say 50 to 60 year olds.
Nobody really expects anyone to do something that is not in their age range. Likewise you would not expect to see a high technical degree from a younger person.

I still enjoy going into the Kendo Dojo with me one side and 40 young ones on the other and have a bit of fun with them. But for me it's not so much how many times I hit them as the quality of the technique I can produce.

Around me I see a lot of teachers who, once they actually stop training for a short time, then seem to give up completley. Even if it's to a small extent, I think you have to try and stay active as long as you can but wouldn't push it too much if you are still recovering.


Never realized that there were so many older people on the forum. Maybe we should start a Veterans Forum.

Get well soon. Regards, Hyakutake

12th June 2000, 20:53
Kent:

I don't believe I would ever be posting this, but I would like to thank you for your comments. What I meant by "hokey" was that it seems like many have heard the same kind of thing before, but are eventually able to walk again. I am not a fan of physical theraphy, but I've greatly benefited from it several times. I would prefer not to have ever gone through it, but that's a different story.

One of the best I remember was a magician who visited the VA hospital in San Fran. My fingers were also broken, apparently when my body landed after the rocket explosion, and not responding well. I couldn't grip anything. After entertaining all of us, he showed a select few how to do some magic tricks. In my case, it was a couple of coin and card manipulations. By working on these over and over, I was eventually able to flex my fingers again like normal. I don't recall his name, but he gave me a gift I will never forget. Without his motivation, I may have just given up and accepted my fate as a victim.

Your father sounds like he had an outstanding "never-give-up" attitude. It would seem that you have also inherited much of his spirit. So even if we disagree about some things, I must applaud you for your determination.

Sincerely,

Don Cunningham

socho
13th June 2000, 00:49
Don,
Good point. Big difference between occupational therapy and physical therapy. The latter gives you exercises to improve and recover, the former gives you a goal, a skill to master, something to work towards that you can actually see improvement in. The exercises in occupational therapy are the background, not the focus. Huge difference. Had a good therapist in Hawaii that made that kind of difference for me.

Ok, pass the advil, lets get back to training.



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Dave Drawdy

Matthew W. Luedke
13th June 2000, 01:29
Well, I'm a young runt (20), and really new at budo (I've been training in aikido for only about 9 months), but I actually came to aikido because of my really bad knees. I used to play high school football and wrestling, until the former tore the MCL and ACL of my left knee, and the latter tore the ACL and lateral meniscus of my right knee. All this took place before I was 17. So, for three years, I sat on my butt and did very little until for three years. Then, I visited the doctor, and he decided that I was over weight and (with my wonderfully checkered family history of heart problems) not in good shape for the future. So, I took up aikido at my college, and in nine months, I've lost 45lbs, have gotten in almost as good shape as I was in before football, and my knees feel as good as they have since before my injuries. I'm cautious about putting my junky joints at risk, and occasionally I have to take a good hard look at a waza before I'm sure it's not a death trap for my knees. But, if there's anything I've picked up, it's that someone's most likely to injure themself if they're too tentative. Both my injuries came when I was either distracted or when I got too cautious. It's not that one can't be hurt when they're going 100%, but as soon as one get's too tentative and and pulls back while trying to do something, that's when they're most vulnerable. Learning this has actually helped a lot--knowing that I'm safest when I'm focused on the moment, I've been able to really hunker down and learn a lot on the mat. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif
Oh, and from what it sounds like, you all are in great condition, even with the injuries. You all give me hope that even with nasty joint injuries, the martial arts
can be a life long practice! Thanks for being role modles! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

Kit LeBlanc
13th June 2000, 08:24
This is great thread.

I am 33. I have been lucky in that the only injuries I have really had thru training were a few bad pulls and a broken finger (twisted in the dojang door when I was walking into taekwondo class. The ignominy of it all!

What I have observed is that several of the people I know who have had debilitating injuries have been consistent at NOT warming up. One guy thinks this is why he hurt his back. (Tho' he still doesn't warm up...) So I make it a point to go thru my own warmup regimen before every training, and to go thru it focussed on conditioning on the days that I don't get to the mats.

Some of the friends I know with knee, back, etc, injuries can no longer do a lot of standing grappling (with throws), or arts like Aikido with a lot of dipping of the knees. Many now practice ne-waza regularly without ill effects. ANOTHER guy I knew with knees that would give out if he even moved laterally in the wrong way, confined himself to ne-waza. (Mark F, I don't remember if it was in this or another thread that you mentioned Maeda's teaching the Brazilians focussed on groundwork because he was over 40. Fascinating observation. I would be intrigued, but not surprised, to find out if that were the case. ) And didn't Draeger switch his Judo focus to ne-waza after his knees went.

I point this out not only because I'm into ne-waza, but to say that when I watched the Budokan tape of the old Kosen Judo masters doing their thing at advanced ages, and seeming hale and hearty and still hell on wheels, I thought "That's how I want to be training when I am 60 or 70!"

Kit LeBlanc

13th June 2000, 15:33
All very good points. I just thought of another one. I try to be especially cautious when working out with novices. I would prefer to avoid it all together, but as a judo coach, I can't always. My only serious injuries on the mat were all caused by practicing with beginners. You never know what to expect from them, and they don't have enough skill to perform the technique while also protecting their uke.


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Don Cunningham

13th June 2000, 23:11
"Fourth metacarpal spiral fracture"

That's the little finger, isn't it? A spiral fracture! You're lucky if you kept the finger. It makes mine hurt just to think about it.

Don Cunningham

Steve Williams
4th August 2000, 23:42
At a young (34), well young for this forum anyway, practitioner of the MA, I have had a few injuries, broken toes, dislocated fingers, worst one a torn meniscus and stretched cruciate in my knee, not as bad as some of you, but hey I've got a few years to catch up.
Fingers and toes heal themselves (almost), as for the knee, was told that although surgery is an option it would put me totally out of action for 6 months to a year !! Frightening thought, if I dont train for a week I seem to gain 5 pounds.
I was given a course of physio, electo-stimulation treatment (cannot recall correct name) and advised a course of weight training (already attended a gym regularly so this was not a problem).
This was almost 3 years ago and now am probably back to 90-95% of my previous abilities, so it worked for me.
I found the weights to probably be the most help.

Anyone else have a similar problem which recovered without surgery?

Yojimbo558
18th August 2000, 22:53
Hi Gil,

I think it's fair to say that all of us can simpathize with being injured. Sitting on the sidelines watching the gang train is never a thrilling event. But as someone else already pointed out...if you watch what their doing you can still learn and improve from your observations.

Like the last poster, I'm 34, I've had my share of injuries...among them knee surgery, and earlier a rotator cuff tear, along with countless other sprains and other minor injuries.

Several years ago however, a friend of mine who runs an Aikido Dojo in Monterey had new student. His name was Forrest. He was a Korean War Vet, and had never studied martial arts before...at the age of 65 this is not what made his desire to join so daunting...rather it was his just recently having had a stroke!

The stroke had left him partially paralyzed in his face, and movement was difficult, he was reduced to walker. When his physical therapist and sons learned that Dad wanted to do Aikido they laughed...he couldn't possibly be serious.

The therapist however came to see Forrest's drive, and got him to concede as to joining only if he went with him to the dojo to see what it was the instructor planned for him. Danniel Evans is a remarkable woman, she took Forrest as a student, and needless to say began with the basics...stretching. The stretches and warmups in Aikido are designed ( like several other styles ) to open up the meridians and activate them. Helping to both warm up the body as well as to help it run more efficiently.

As time passed Forrest switched from a walker to a cane, his, face no longer partially paralyzed, and strength was returning to his body. He learned kata, and how to roll, and amazed everyone with his insistance on learning high falls. Forrest spent most of each day at the dojo, moving slowly he recovered more, and more. Eventually the cane became an accessory and not a necissity. He added arnis to his regimen and you could see the muscles developing in his arms. For many at Daniells dojo, Forrest was a father figure, for others a good friend...and for others he was an inspiration as to what could be overcome. After awhile longer he added a third martial art, iaido to his resume.

A short time later, sadly Forrest had another stroke...this time it was one he couldn't walk away from. This time he died. During the time he was with the dojo ( a little over 3 yrs I think ) the quality of his life was better than he'd ever known. He'd touched a lot of people, and we were all richer for having known him.

Forrest chased his dreams, he did what his body could. He did highfalls from kote gaeshi and shiho nage...he passed on the spectacular over the body highfalls...he adapted and surpassed everyones expectations...save perhaps his own :)

Take care,

Eric Bookin