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Gary Wado
30th July 2006, 20:05
Training in traditional Wado for the last twenty years, I have never come across a Sensei who has a red and white Obi.

I know that it tends to be worn by senior grade Judoka "Brian Jacks" from UK for instance, but recently I have seen some footage of Isshinryu Karateka wearing them.

Can any one explain the origin of the red and white stripes and why it appears to be more "senior" than a plain black belt?

Gary

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

ryukyu2000
30th July 2006, 21:07
Gary-san:

Within the Okinawan systems, it is common for Kyoshi grade's to wear a red and white belt in certain systems. I don't think it is viewed as 'more senior' than their dan ranks, just a designation within their respective systems of what their ranked individual wears. Much like it is common within many Japanese systems to add a stripe for each yudansha grade, wereas on Okinawa there are the two stripes, four stripes and six stripes in certain systems for very senior yudansha grades (6th through 10th dan).

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

Gary Wado
30th July 2006, 21:53
Thanks Andy,

So if I have understood you correctly the more red and white stripes a
"Kyoshi grade" belt has the more senior he is?

Gary

ryukyu2000
30th July 2006, 22:43
Gary:

I should have been clearer. To my knowledge, there is no equation between the number of panels and rank. The number of panels is likely due to the length in the manufacturing process and the maker.

If you do a search under ranks and belts, I think you will turn up a host of variances between belt types, Japan, Okinawa, etc. In the US, there are a host of different belt types, possibilities seem endless (similar to the plethora of titles).

Regards,

Andy Morris

Kenpo5th
31st July 2006, 06:40
Hmmm, when I trained in Wado, under Sensei's Mike Sawyer and Cory Schafer in Florida, 3rd Dans would wear a Renshi belt (back side black, front half red/half white split horizontally) backwards, that is with the black side out, 4th Dans would wear it with the white side on top and facing out and 5th Dans would wear it red side on top and facing out. Just my experience... I personally haven't seen any other Wado instructors do this, and I know I don't, but I thought it was pretty cool :p

shoshinkan
31st July 2006, 10:27
I always thought that the Shihan certification was appropiate (and seperate) as follows -

5/6th dan - Renshi Red/Black belt or black/1 bar

7/8th dan - Kyoshi Red/White belt or black 2 bars

9/10th dan - Hanshi Red belt or black/3 bars

With the wearing of the 'red belts' for special/official occasions and the wearing of simple black belt with gold bars for general training.

5th dan denoting the highest technical rank, ie full knowledge of the ryu.

Of course I understand that different groups work in different ways but is this not the 'general' accepted method within karate.

Duanew
31st July 2006, 14:47
As others have already stated it all depends on the association/style, etc. Wether they are traditional or americanized. In my association 5 and 6th dan wear a black belt with one gold stripe, 7 & 8 two gold stripes, 9 & 10 three gold stripes. A red and white belt is given with their Shihan certificate (7th).
From then they have an option of wearing either.
A few years back we had one member who would not wear his black belt with two gold stripes because he was afraid people would think he was a nidan..might have been something to do with his technique...he didn't last long in the association.

DuaneW
Some change when they see the light. Others change when they feel the heat. Some require blunt force trauma.

Blackwood
31st July 2006, 15:10
My organization has black for 1 through 6, adding a gold bar with each rank.

7th and 8th wear red and white

9th and 10th wear solid red.

Texasmic
31st July 2006, 15:36
My organization doesn't wear belts except for kyu ranks.

We do have yudansha rank, we just don't wear the belts.

Belts tend to get people strutting around with their thumbs hooked in their belts telling you how much more they know than you because they have more stripes or bars or happy face patches on their belt than you do.

The point is what do you know, what can you do.

Rank is irrelevant.

You can see some one move and listen to their ideas on technique and tell whether they are "full of it" or not. I've seen lot's of people with high ranks from even "reputable systems" who don't know squat, and move like they have no idea what they are doing, and it is obvious they spend their training sessions talking.

Chris McLean
31st July 2006, 15:40
My understanding is you continue to wear a solid black belt as long as your training hard and still competing. When you put aside the hard core training as you age and move into just teaching then you put on your red and white belt at the appropirate time and rank. It should not be worn in competition.

armanox
2nd August 2006, 19:28
Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

Texasmic
2nd August 2006, 21:19
Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.
Yeah, that's why I don't compete too... yeah, yeah that's it, I too good. LOL

Actually I always think of those belts when I see the red and white reflector tape that is sometimes on the bumpers of big trucks.

shoshinkan
2nd August 2006, 21:44
Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

cant they enter the 'masters' division LOL, whatever the hell that is eh ?

Gary Wado
2nd August 2006, 21:57
Thanks very much everyone for the info. Really good.

Interesting that a lot of the replies came from Karateka who train in Okinawan Ryu and are based in the US.

There is obviously a strong US/Okinawan Ryu connection understandable due to your Joint history I suppose.

In the Europe, particularly within Wado Ryu/Kai styles, as far as I know, red and white obi are not worn, even by the most senior Hanshi.

For example the following are recognised (in Europe at least) as amongst the most "venerated" in their "ryu".

Hironori Ohtsuka (II) 10th Dan - Wadoryu Karatedo Renmei
Toru Arakawa 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Katsumi Hakoishi 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Tatsuo Suzuki 8th Dan - WIKF
Masafumi Shiomitsu* 8th Dan - Wado Ryu Karate-do Academy

All of which wear solid black Obi (*with the exception of Shiomitsu sensei who, when the last time I trained with him, was wearing a white belt).

All of which have no stripes or marks etc. I guess its the less is more thing!

Also interesting that, apart from the son of the founder of the "Ryu", no instructor (to my knowledge), within the Japan Karate Federation Wado Kai (or other Major Wado Group), has a rank above 8th Dan. Another difference perhaps between the Okinawan Ryu and the US?

If anyone knows different please advise.

Gary

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Blackwood
3rd August 2006, 02:50
We have a single red belt in North America, he is Okinawan and has been teaching in the US for about 35 years. He is a 10th Dan, been training under his teacher for over 50 years and trained under Shinpan Gusukuma before that. The only other 10th Dan in the style is his teacher, the Grandmaster in Okinawa. There are dozen or so 7th Dan in the US that have all been training for over 25 years with the Hanshi.

We had a number of 9th and 8th Dan from around the world that came to celebrate 30 years of the Hanshi teaching at his current dojo.

Texasmic
3rd August 2006, 04:08
We have a single red belt in North America, he is Okinawan and has been teaching in the US for about 35 years. He is a 10th Dan, been training under his teacher for over 50 years and trained under Shinpan Gusukuma before that. The only other 10th Dan in the style is his teacher, the Grandmaster in Okinawa. There are dozen or so 7th Dan in the US that have all been training for over 25 years with the Hanshi.

We had a number of 9th and 8th Dan from around the world that came to celebrate 30 years of the Hanshi teaching at his current dojo.

I have seen Taika Oyata wear a red belt some years ago.

He also is a 10th Dan is from Okinawa and has himself been training for 60 years as of this year.

http://ryute.com/aboutto.htm

http://ryute.com/lchart.htm

Duanew
3rd August 2006, 15:23
Besides the color of the belt in our organization there is also an age requirement for the rank. For instance a minimum age of 40 for 6th Dan, etc. Once past 5th Dan time training, age, time in rank and contributions to the association-number of black belt students, etc all effect promotion.


Duane Wolfe
Matsumura Kenpo

hjnorris
3rd August 2006, 18:44
You guys ever get the feeling that this is just another way to sell people more stuff?


Regards,

Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC

Texasmic
3rd August 2006, 19:09
You guys ever get the feeling that this is just another way to sell people more stuff?


Regards,

Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC
Yes I do. :)

TheBadger
3rd August 2006, 20:30
Hmmm, when I trained in Wado, under Sensei's Mike Sawyer and Cory Schafer in Florida, 3rd Dans would wear a Renshi belt (back side black, front half red/half white split horizontally) backwards, that is with the black side out, 4th Dans would wear it with the white side on top and facing out and 5th Dans would wear it red side on top and facing out. Just my experience... I personally haven't seen any other Wado instructors do this, and I know I don't, but I thought it was pretty cool :p

Not sure about being cool, but it would seem to be complicated. Ok do I wear it up or down, in or out. Just put the belt on and train. heheh

That being said, in our style, Shodan through Yondan wear black. Godan and Rokudan wear Red and Black paneled (Damn, red black paneled are hard to find in the U.S. , anyone know of a good company) above Rokudan wear Red and White.

Gary Wado
4th August 2006, 00:38
Indeed I must agree with the above. All of the people that I know that bear a Red and White belt refuse to compete in tournaments - argueing that they rank too high to be entering in such things, and that it would be unfair to the competitors.

Or in other words their pride might get damaged , along with their "perceived" reputation if they get beat!

I think that you are never to old, or senior to compete. Whilst some of us old'uns may not be able to compete on the international Kumite circuit any more there is no reason why we cant do Kata at international level.

Admittedly, does n't have the same buzz as the kumite events but at least it keeps you "Match fit"

I have seen so many karateka get to third and fourth dan and quit competition to become referees and judges.

I suppose its a case of "the bigger you are, the further you fall" if you loose!

Just a thought!

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Mitch Saret
4th August 2006, 01:26
The Bold Look, in Miami, Florida has both Black & Red Panel Belts and Red & White Panel Belts. Actually, I just pulled out a catalog. In the Panel Belt they have black & white, red & white, and blue & white. They also have the "renshi" belt, black on one side, red & white horizontally split on the other. I am sure they can do the black & red. They make their belts in house. www.boldlook.net or 800-230-2653.

Duanew
4th August 2006, 14:44
You guys ever get the feeling that this is just another way to sell people more stuff?


Regards,

Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC

I would hope that there would be a limited market, but with some organizations/styles making third dan masters, etc. who knows. In my organization there is nothing to buy. At that rank (5th and above), there are no cost associated with promotion and belts are presented to you by the head of the system.
Quite frankly everyone I know who has been presented with their red and white belt has been reticent to wear it after seeing so many others in this country who proudly wear theirs.

Duane Wolfe
Matsumura Kenpo

Texasmic
4th August 2006, 15:28
Just a joke don't get offended... :)

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2527/rainbowcolorsbeltwz8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Amphinon
4th August 2006, 16:30
Or in other words their pride might get damaged , along with their "perceived" reputation if they get beat!

I think that you are never to old, or senior to compete. Whilst some of us old'uns may not be able to compete on the international Kumite circuit any more there is no reason why we cant do Kata at international level.

Admittedly, does n't have the same buzz as the kumite events but at least it keeps you "Match fit"

I have seen so many karateka get to third and fourth dan and quit competition to become referees and judges.

I suppose its a case of "the bigger you are, the further you fall" if you loose!

Just a thought!

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

I like your thought process, and with no disrespect meant by the following statement, I want to disagree with the section bolded in your quote.

In my case, I have been competing since 1986. After that many tournaments, trophies, awards, and injuries, my body cannot compete at the same level. I retired from active competition in Dec 2002. My reasons for retiring were only because of age and injuries. My technique and quickness are still very sharp.

Perhaps the 3rd and 4th Dans you are referring to are really those that don't feel they have anything more to prove?

johnst_nhb
4th August 2006, 16:44
Or in other words their pride might get damaged , along with their "perceived" reputation if they get beat!

I think that you are never to old, or senior to compete. Whilst some of us old'uns may not be able to compete on the international Kumite circuit any more there is no reason why we cant do Kata at international level.

Admittedly, does n't have the same buzz as the kumite events but at least it keeps you "Match fit"

I have seen so many karateka get to third and fourth dan and quit competition to become referees and judges.

I suppose its a case of "the bigger you are, the further you fall" if you loose!

Just a thought!

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Extrapolating from what you pro tournament folks are saying, do you think it should be a requirement to compete? What if someone just does not want to compete (or compete anymore)?

Furthermore, what kind of competition are you referring to (point fighting or full contact)?

armanox
4th August 2006, 17:33
I was refering to the general open tournaments that are common place in the area. Generally they include kata, kobudo kata, and point fight sparring.



Or in other words their pride might get damaged , along with their "perceived" reputation if they get beat!

I think that you are never to old, or senior to compete. Whilst some of us old'uns may not be able to compete on the international Kumite circuit any more there is no reason why we cant do Kata at international level.

Admittedly, does n't have the same buzz as the kumite events but at least it keeps you "Match fit"

I have seen so many karateka get to third and fourth dan and quit competition to become referees and judges.

I suppose its a case of "the bigger you are, the further you fall" if you loose!

Just a thought!

Gary Needham

All of the people I was referencing(4 of which are now 7th dan, the other 8th) have been defeated in tournament internationally. Now, if their reasoning was due to pride, why would they have entered tournaments in Okinawa, as well as some of the group judged in Okinawa back in 2002?



All of which have no stripes or marks etc. I guess its the less is more thing!

In Kobayashi Shorin Ryu one keeps a solid black belt until 7th Dan. The need to add stripes and bars just doesn't exist.

Amphinon
4th August 2006, 18:48
I was refering to the general open tournaments that are common place in the area. Generally they include kata, kobudo kata, and point fight sparring.



All of the people I was referencing(4 of which are now 7th dan, the other 8th) have been defeated in tournament internationally. Now, if their reasoning was due to pride, why would they have entered tournaments in Okinawa, as well as some of the group judged in Okinawa back in 2002?



In Kobayashi Shorin Ryu one keeps a solid black belt until 7th Dan. The need to add stripes and bars just doesn't exist.


And I was quoting and responding to Gary Needham. I didn't have anything to say about your post.

Jonesy
4th August 2006, 20:01
All the different belt styles anyone could ever want can be found here.

http://www.eosinpanther.com/

Just for comparison, the system in judo is

1 Dan - 5 Dan: Solid Black Belt. Some chose to add bars for Dan ranks, most do not.

6 Dan - 8 Dan: Red & White Blocked Belt (Ceremonial), solid Black if participating in competition, randori etc.

9 Dan - 10 Dab: Solid Red (Ceremonial), solid Black if participating in competition, randori etc.

All Red & White blocked belts and red belts should only be worn for ceremonial and coaching purposes only e.g. A 6 Dan doing randori should wear his/her black belt.

However, in the west most Red & White belt holders wear them all of the time. In Japan, they hardly ever do so.

Texasmic
4th August 2006, 21:16
All the different belt styles anyone could ever want can be found here.

http://www.eosinpanther.com/

Just for comparison, the system in judo is

1 Dan - 5 Dan: Solid Black Belt. Some chose to add bars for Dan ranks, most do not.

6 Dan - 8 Dan: Red & White Blocked Belt (Ceremonial), solid Black if participating in competition, randori etc.

9 Dan - 10 Dab: Solid Red (Ceremonial), solid Black if participating in competition, randori etc.

All Red & White blocked belts and red belts should only be worn for ceremonial and coaching purposes only e.g. A 6 Dan doing randori should wear his/her black belt.

However, in the west most Red & White belt holders wear them all of the time. In Japan, they hardly ever do so.
Bingo! and in the west it seems most people are "rank happy".

What rank are you?

What kind of belt do you wear?

Yada Yada Yada

And I think it makes most Japanese people want to gag when they see the way westerners act about their rank. Like it is the most important thing, instead of what they know.

I mean really who cares what your rank is? Westerners are OBSESSED with rank.

Westerner thinking, "I can't wear my plain old black belt! Everyone will think I'm a lowly shodan!"

kiai
4th August 2006, 23:07
Westerner thinking, "I can't wear my plain old black belt! Everyone will think I'm a lowly shodan!"

Professor O Sensei Hanshi of Hanshis NiJuDan Saviour of the Galaxy Pimped up Elvis Belt Totin'' Son of a Gun

All that's missing is the royal "we".

Gary Wado
5th August 2006, 00:35
I like your thought process, and with no disrespect meant by the following statement, I want to disagree with the section bolded in your quote.

In my case, I have been competing since 1986. After that many tournaments, trophies, awards, and injuries, my body cannot compete at the same level. I retired from active competition in Dec 2002. My reasons for retiring were only because of age and injuries. My technique and quickness are still very sharp.

Perhaps the 3rd and 4th Dans you are referring to are really those that don't feel they have anything more to prove?

Sorry, perhaps I was a bit "brash" when I posted the last comment, and you are right, there comes a point in your kumite career when you simply cannot keep up with the younger guys coming through particularly if you have picked up a few injuries on the way.

I think my "angst" was really about senior karateka who wear multi coloured belts in an attempt to "Stand Out" from the other Yudansha, without perhaps the credit they deserve on an international level. Particularly when measured against their peers.

My respect for a sensei is due to his ability, not what he wears around his waist.

I of course mean no disrespect to the Ryu that have these belts as inherently part of their senior grade recognition.

I suppose I am am "old school" really. You are as good as your Karate.

Gary Needham

PS. for any one who is interested I am developing a belt with embedded flashing LEDs

Gary Wado
6th August 2006, 01:15
Extrapolating from what you pro tournament folks are saying, do you think it should be a requirement to compete? What if someone just does not want to compete (or compete anymore)?

Furthermore, what kind of competition are you referring to (point fighting or full contact)?

Hi John,

First, I have to say i am not and never have been a pro tournament competitor. I competed at national and international level for England, but sadly never got paid for it!

You are of course, completely right about competition. If you want to do it great, if not that's cool too. A very few of us are world class "Olympiads", the rest (including me) are at best, enthusiastic "hobbyists" and so therefore you choose your path and get the most out of it.

In answer to your second question, it was not full contact Kumite. In the uk the Kyokushin guys tend to be the only full contact Kumite competitors. In JKF Wado Kai our comps are held under WKF (World Karate Federation) rules. Which is basically "Semi Contact", with light weight mits and shin guards etc.

Regards

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Chris McLean
6th August 2006, 05:26
Extrapolating from what you pro tournament folks are saying, do you think it should be a requirement to compete? What if someone just does not want to compete (or compete anymore)?

Furthermore, what kind of competition are you referring to (point fighting or full contact)?


My experiance in Judo, Karate, and Juijitsu is the best players in the dojo where competitors at some point. Competition makes you train harder and if approached with the proper attitude can be a positive experiance to enhance the growth of a martial artist. Setting goals has always been and still is a big part of my path in the martial arts. Even if your not an olympian you can still set achievable goals that can chalange you through competition. I do firmly believe there is a time when a martial artist should turn his focus toward coaching or teaching. That age can very from person to person. Then new goals can be set through your students. What ever it takes to keep the fire of life alive in the belly.

Amphinon
7th August 2006, 16:10
Mr. Wado,

That's perfectly fine. I myself am no stranger to forum miscommunication. Perfectly understandable.


Has anyone visited the site that jonesy has provided a link to? I am curious about the different styles of red obi shown there as masters belts.

Some have descriptions on rank and style, but most do not. What styles are some of these associated with? Are any of them generic (so to speak)? Any comments on any?

I am linking some pics of some of these...

Amphinon
7th August 2006, 16:12
And 5 more belts...

Amphinon
7th August 2006, 16:15
5 more.... of particular note is the white belt with the black panel. I think it is fitting since a Black Belt eventually turns white again... (at least it should!)

Amphinon
7th August 2006, 16:17
And the last 4 master belts.

I have also included for your viewing and comments the American Flag black belt. I thought it was a little pretentious.

Comments and insights appreciated!

Amphinon
7th August 2006, 16:21
Here is a kenpo and a Jiujitsu master belt.

johnst_nhb
7th August 2006, 17:06
Hi John,

First, I have to say i am not and never have been a pro tournament competitor. I competed at national and international level for England, but sadly never got paid for it!

You are of course, completely right about competition. If you want to do it great, if not that's cool too. A very few of us are world class "Olympiads", the rest (including me) are at best, enthusiastic "hobbyists" and so therefore you choose your path and get the most out of it.

In answer to your second question, it was not full contact Kumite. In the uk the Kyokushin guys tend to be the only full contact Kumite competitors. In JKF Wado Kai our comps are held under WKF (World Karate Federation) rules. Which is basically "Semi Contact", with light weight mits and shin guards etc.

Regards

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the response. One note though, when I was saying "pro tournament", I did not mean Professional, I meant "pro" as in an advocate for...make sense?

Sorry for the poor wording!

j

powerof0ne
7th August 2006, 18:11
Hi Gary,

Thanks for the response. One note though, when I was saying "pro tournament", I did not mean Professional, I meant "pro" as in an advocate for...make sense?

Sorry for the poor wording!

j

John, you're pro tournament to some degree, aren't you?
The area in where I live most of the individuals that wear these kind of blocked style belts always make me scratch my head. I'm not going to say that everyone with these kind of belts is a schmuck but just in my limited experience many have been. John, feel free to chime in any time you want because I'm sure you know of some instructors in the area with these kind of belts, and you may know of some good ones. I just haven't seen any in the PNW. One style in this area comes to mind that seems to have al ot of these guys but I don't want to get into a style bashing conversation.
A USSD school opened near me not too long ago and I was driving by and saw an individual in his 30s to early 40s wearing a blood red belt who I'm sure is the instructor. I think I'm going to pay this school a visit just for giggles. Now, I'm not saying every instructor with a 9th-10th dan blood red obi is a sham. I know of legit Judan with this belt, but when I see someone who's not even 50(more like 70)with this kind of belt my spidey sense immediately starts to tingle.
My opinion on these renshi/kyoshi/etc. belts is fairly simple: if you want to wear them, you better be good. Personally, I'm not cool enough to wear something so fashionable. I'm also no where near a rokudan or higher rank, too.

johnst_nhb
7th August 2006, 18:51
John, you're pro tournament to some degree, aren't you?
The area in where I live most of the individuals that wear these kind of blocked style belts always make me scratch my head. I'm not going to say that everyone with these kind of belts is a schmuck but just in my limited experience many have been. John, feel free to chime in any time you want because I'm sure you know of some instructors in the area with these kind of belts, and you may know of some good ones. I just haven't seen any in the PNW. One style in this area comes to mind that seems to have al ot of these guys but I don't want to get into a style bashing conversation.
A USSD school opened near me not too long ago and I was driving by and saw an individual in his 30s to early 40s wearing a blood red belt who I'm sure is the instructor. I think I'm going to pay this school a visit just for giggles. Now, I'm not saying every instructor with a 9th-10th dan blood red obi is a sham. I know of legit Judan with this belt, but when I see someone who's not even 50(more like 70)with this kind of belt my spidey sense immediately starts to tingle.
My opinion on these renshi/kyoshi/etc. belts is fairly simple: if you want to wear them, you better be good. Personally, I'm not cool enough to wear something so fashionable. I'm also no where near a rokudan or higher rank, too.

Hey, I am ambivalent about tournaments. I have competed a great deal in the past in those "open" and invitation tournaments (hey it was the 80s!). There was some good to come from them, and alot that was not. I am glad I competed, but I don't see it as necessarily that great. So, basically, I am luke warm...

As for the belts, in Okinawan karate, you do see the red and white belt at Shihan levels, but the belt is largely "ceremonial". You don't see many of the old timers wearing them, except for exhibitions. I think some of the belts above are complete lunacy (gotta love the matching key chains with some of them) and those are pretty much motivated by ego and money. Personally, I am not a fan of the plain red and white belt, but I know that if I were to reach Shihan level someday, its likely I would receive one from my teacher. I appreciate the fact that our system (as do many others) have this belt, but its not my style. It would hang in my closet. My teacher does not require one to wear this belt (possibly at our annual seminars but I am unclear on this). I would wear it there if required or asked out of respect.

In many Okinawan styles, the renshi and kyoshi belts are marked with the gold bars as Duane stated in an earlier post. Pretty non-obtrusive and we are asked to wear those...I am fine with that, its pretty much a plain black belt.

I have seen quite alot of various belt colors (for yudansha) and 99% of the waists they are wrapped around are not what I would call the real deal. I don't care what color one's belt is, what I want to see is a good person who works hard and shows refined technique. Being tough is a requirement too.

j

*edit*
Oh, I would agree that someone should be pretty damn good to wear one of these belts. That is a standard that I try and hold myself too. I am not pretty damn good, but I do work toward that as hard as I can. To me, that is the best I can do. When I see someone wearing one of these belts who does not work hard, I have instant disrespect.

powerof0ne
7th August 2006, 20:09
When I meant renshi/kyoshi belts I meant the red & white, black & white ones and what not. I have to agree with you about the key chain thing being pretty silly. You might as well get a license plate frame with that that saying something like "I'm a Karate Master".

johnst_nhb
7th August 2006, 20:15
When I meant renshi/kyoshi belts I meant the red & white, black & white ones and what not. I have to agree with you about the key chain thing being pretty silly. You might as well get a license plate frame with that that saying something like "I'm a Karate Master".

LOL @ the liscense plate. I knew someone once who had one that said "Shuri Te".

I figured you were talking about the multicolored ones...I have seen a few of those around but not quite as many as either plain red or r/w ones...they all communicate the same thing though!

:)

kiai
7th August 2006, 20:34
What about matching luggage sets?

Gary Wado
7th August 2006, 21:15
Hi John,

First, I have to say i am not and never have been a pro tournament competitor. I competed at national and international level for England, but sadly never got paid for it!

You are of course, completely right about competition. If you want to do it great, if not that's cool too. A very few of us are world class "Olympiads", the rest (including me) are at best, enthusiastic "hobbyists" and so therefore you choose your path and get the most out of it.

In answer to your second question, it was not full contact Kumite. In the uk the Kyokushin guys tend to be the only full contact Kumite competitors. In JKF Wado Kai our comps are held under WKF (World Karate Federation) rules. Which is basically "Semi Contact", with light weight mits and shin guards etc.

Regards

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

John,

I must apologise for being a bit thick. I of course understand your wording now and it makes sense. For the same reasons I must apologise about refering to people as "Olympiads" which of course is the event and not the people who take part in it.

I really must try harder!

Gary

shoshinkan
7th August 2006, 23:16
It was my understanding that the shihan (teaching license certification) were simply, renshi (5/6 dan min), kyoshi (7/8 dan min) and hanshi (9/10 dan).

Essentially meaning that anyone presented with any of the teaching certificates could be refered to as shihan as opposed to sensei,

Not compulsory of course and nearly every Senior karateka I know is more than happy with the term Sensei.

I like to think of Sensei as meaning teacher, and Shihan as Master/Senior Teacher personally but would like clarification of this as I think im not being accurate with the Shihan term.

Jonesy
7th August 2006, 23:52
Mr. Wado,

That's perfectly fine. I myself am no stranger to forum miscommunication. Perfectly understandable.


Has anyone visited the site that jonesy has provided a link to? I am curious about the different styles of red obi shown there as masters belts.

Some have descriptions on rank and style, but most do not. What styles are some of these associated with? Are any of them generic (so to speak)? Any comments on any?

I am linking some pics of some of these...

From a judo perspective the red and white panel belts are the ceremonial 6 Dan to 8 Dan belts. The solid red belts are the ceremonial 9 and 10 Dan belts.

Jonesy
7th August 2006, 23:54
And 5 more belts...
I have seen the red and black panel belts worn by both judo and jujutsu 4 and 5 Dan holders in the US - I think in the USJA governing body.

The half white/half red belt I believe is a Renshi belt.

shoshinkan
8th August 2006, 01:08
It would make sense to have a ceremonial renshi belt I imagine, and I have been led to believe that the Black/Red panel belt is correct.

for general training single, double and treble gold bars signify the teaching license's, ie renshi one gold bar.

Texasmic
8th August 2006, 16:41
It was my understanding that the shihan (teaching license certification) were simply, renshi (5/6 dan min), kyoshi (7/8 dan min) and hanshi (9/10 dan).

Essentially meaning that anyone presented with any of the teaching certificates could be refered to as shihan as opposed to sensei,

Not compulsory of course and nearly every Senior karateka I know is more than happy with the term Sensei.

I like to think of Sensei as meaning teacher, and Shihan as Master/Senior Teacher personally but would like clarification of this as I think im not being accurate with the Shihan term.
Okay this is my understanding, and what I have been told by an Okinawan lady who is a friend of mine.

First the only actual "karate titles" mentioned are renshi, kyoshi, & hanshi.
Sensei, and Shihan are a little more flexible as far as to whom you are referring.

Sensei is VERY misunderstood in the west. Sensei is what you would call a college professor, a judge, or a doctor, it is a way of addressing professional people. School children may call their teacher sensei because of the age difference.

Shihan is more of less instructor, and in a dojo setting he or she would be the head instructor, or dojo owner.

I think for most Martial Arts schools in the west Shihan would be the most accurate way to address an instructor / dojo owner unless he / she also happens to have a doctorates degree or is a judge.

Gary Wado
9th August 2006, 22:01
Okay this is my understanding, and what I have been told by an Okinawan lady who is a friend of mine.

First the only actual "karate titles" mentioned are renshi, kyoshi, & hanshi.
Sensei, and Shihan are a little more flexible as far as to whom you are referring.

Sensei is VERY misunderstood in the west. Sensei is what you would call a college professor, a judge, or a doctor, it is a way of addressing professional people. School children may call their teacher sensei because of the age difference.

Shihan is more of less instructor, and in a dojo setting he or she would be the head instructor, or dojo owner.

I think for most Martial Arts schools in the west Shihan would be the most accurate way to address an instructor / dojo owner unless he / she also happens to have a doctorates degree or is a judge.

I have had a recent experience that lends weight to to this point of view.

In June, a JKF Wado Kai 6th dan and three of his students came to train at our dojo. Whilst I referred to him as "Sensei" (because he is more senior than me and I knew he was a teacher at his own dojo) his students referred to him as "Shihan".

It was my understanding (wrongly it would appear), that "Shihan" was a senior officer in an association.

Whilst his Karate was excellent, he runs a relatively modest Dojo south of Tokyo called "Ken Sei Kan" and I believe that's as far as it goes.

So with this in mind your Okinawan friend has a point.

That said, I think I would put a few noses out of joint in the UK if I started to refer to myself as "Shihan" on the basis that I run my own Dojo!

There is your "Western" thing again.

Gary Needham

Gary Wado
9th August 2006, 22:17
Then again there is the "Wikipedia" explanation;

"Shihan is a Japanese title, often used in budo. The word means teacher or model.

Various budo arts and organisations have different requirements for the usage of the title, but in general it is a high title that takes many years to achieve. It is sometimes associated with certain rights, such as the right to give out dan ranks in the name of the organisation.

While westerners want to know specifically what makes a person into a shihan, the process of becoming a shihan can be rather abstruse in Japan. For instance, within the Bujinkan it has been said that you become a shihan when the other shihan start calling you a shihan. However, it is often common to call all teachers with at least 10th dan a shihan - at least if he is Japanese. Similarly, within the aikido organisation Aikikai a Japanese teacher automatically became a shihan at sixth dan but it was long unclear whether westerners with the same rank also held the title. Finally, the Aikikai headquarters declared that westerners needed not only the rank of sixth dan but also a special appointment to become a shihan."

I hope I have not broken any forum rules showing this.

If so I am sorry in advance.

Gary Needham

wreddock
9th August 2006, 22:40
Sensei is what you would call a college professor, a judge, or a doctor
or a politician or a gangster boss or a kabuki player or a hostess bar owner (no kidding) Sensei in Japan is a very well used word (almost as much as Shacho - :) )

Texasmic
10th August 2006, 15:33
or a politician or a gangster boss or a kabuki player or a hostess bar owner (no kidding) Sensei in Japan is a very well used word (almost as much as Shacho - :) )
My students call me Mike. :)

Although now that I think of it one of them calls me boss sometimes, and one calls me buddy (which I hate).

I think I will have them call me Grand Celestial kahuna, yeah I like that! :p

Amphinon
16th August 2006, 19:11
Then again there is the "Wikipedia" explanation;

"Shihan is a Japanese title, often used in budo. The word means teacher or model.

Various budo arts and organisations have different requirements for the usage of the title, but in general it is a high title that takes many years to achieve. It is sometimes associated with certain rights, such as the right to give out dan ranks in the name of the organisation.

While westerners want to know specifically what makes a person into a shihan, the process of becoming a shihan can be rather abstruse in Japan. For instance, within the Bujinkan it has been said that you become a shihan when the other shihan start calling you a shihan. However, it is often common to call all teachers with at least 10th dan a shihan - at least if he is Japanese. Similarly, within the aikido organisation Aikikai a Japanese teacher automatically became a shihan at sixth dan but it was long unclear whether westerners with the same rank also held the title. Finally, the Aikikai headquarters declared that westerners needed not only the rank of sixth dan but also a special appointment to become a shihan."

I hope I have not broken any forum rules showing this.

If so I am sorry in advance.

Gary Needham

Gary, no disreprect intended by this, but Wikipedia is not the best source to find out useful information. They have people who contribute, but the fact checking is almost nil. I do enjoy reading it though.

Sensei is commonly used and anyone in a position of authority can be addessed as Sensei. Shihan is more attuned to Martial Arts and does indeed refer to the head instructor.

After my instructor passed away, many used Shihan when talking about him because of the respect the martial arts community had for him.

BTW - sorry for the late response to this thread. I just got back from Mexico! Wow! Got tons of pictures... including some of the local 'scenery'!

PictonMA
17th August 2006, 08:08
More articulately and accurately put together than I could do:

http://www.gojuryu.net/readarticle.php?article_id=43

http://www.gojuryu.net/readarticle.php?article_id=44

Jason G. Bilodeau

Amphinon
17th August 2006, 16:25
More articulately and accurately put together than I could do:

http://www.gojuryu.net/readarticle.php?article_id=43

http://www.gojuryu.net/readarticle.php?article_id=44

Jason G. Bilodeau

Wow! absolutely awesome information. I read the entire 2 pages and must say that this answers so many questions!

The only question that remains is this...

How do the images above coincide with rank for each system and is there a standard?

Tim Mailloux
17th August 2006, 19:01
From what I have been told and read, the terms Shihan, renshi, hanshi, kyoshi are never used to adress someone. Very similar to our title of PhD in the west. You would never refer to some one as PhD Smith, but you would call them Doctor Smith. The same goes for these Japanese titles. When adressing them, and refereing to them they should be refered to as "X" sensei. But if you were to write down there title it would be "X" sensei, 7th Dan Shihan, similar to Doctor Smith, PhD or MD.

During my years training in aikido and iaido I have never, nor ever heard anyone refer to one of the many Japanese Shihan / Renshi / Hanshi as such. They have always been called sensei. This topic has also come up several times in the aikido & sword arts forums. Do a search for a better explination.

Nyuck3X
18th August 2006, 00:58
From what I have been told and read, the terms Shihan, renshi, hanshi, kyoshi are never used to adress someone. Very similar to our title of PhD in the west. You would never refer to some one as PhD Smith, but you would call them Doctor Smith. The same goes for these Japanese titles. When adressing them, and refereing to them they should be refered to as "X" sensei. But if you were to write down there title it would be "X" sensei, 7th Dan Shihan, similar to Doctor Smith, PhD or MD.


I second this.

As far as I know, no two schools are required to adopt the
same criteria to use these titles and it is my opinion that
anyone using them in print for advertisement or permits the
use of it in public is using it as a marketing gimmick. The
general public has no need to know if one is Renshi, Shihan or
Hanshi. Heck, they wouldn't know what one was if it bit them
in the foot. Titles should only be used on official documents.
A practioner should only be addressed as "X" Sensei, 7th Dan,
"X"-ryu, of the "X" Dojo or Kan to the gen. public. Members
would have more info. If a practioner needs to know more, then
simply ask Sensei.

Peace

Jonesy
29th August 2006, 22:18
http://www.yoseikanbudo.com/eng/iybf.shtml

Gary Wado
29th August 2006, 23:57
Thank you for this Jonsey it seems to lend weight to my point about it being a Judo thing originally!

On youtube I saw a guy from a UK karate association called "Sandokai Karate" wearing a red and White "Block" obi who is a sixth dan and refers to him self as "Shihan".

Interestingly his association appears to teach teach Wado Ryu to start with and then seems to teach a more Shotokan related Sylabus to his senior grades.

Their web site suggests that they are one of the oldest clubs in the area so fair play but, I suppose my point is, is it Jack of all trades and Master of none? Or is he right by picking the best out of each style?

Is this why he feels he can wear a red and white "Block" obi (as he offers an alternative maybe)?

And for this reason can he call himself Shihan?

Gary Needham

www.wado-kai-karate.co.uk

Amphinon
30th August 2006, 15:16
By the articles written and read, Shihan is a title given to certified instructors. A true Shihan will not call himself Shihan.

He either is not aware, or doesn't care.

shoshinkan
30th August 2006, 18:37
whilst this is certainly not the absolute 'correct' approach I think of Sensei as 'teacher level', and Shihan as 'Master level', shihan are those who have been awarded the shihan license of renshi, kyoshi or hanshi.

agree that Sensei, Shihan etc etc never refer to themselves by those titles.

Amphinon
30th August 2006, 18:59
I stand corrected. I typed wrong.

See what happens when you need caffiene to wake up?

Gary Wado
30th August 2006, 22:32
I suppose its a bit like the title of Corporate "Director". (or in the US, Vice President).

I work along side them all day but, don't refer to them as Director Michael and Director Keith for example.

I know one thing though, they earn a darn sight more money than me!!

Gary Needham

john_lord_b3
22nd September 2006, 21:01
In the Europe, particularly within Wado Ryu/Kai styles, as far as I know, red and white obi are not worn, even by the most senior Hanshi.

For example the following are recognised (in Europe at least) as amongst the most "venerated" in their "ryu".

Hironori Ohtsuka (II) 10th Dan - Wadoryu Karatedo Renmei
Toru Arakawa 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Katsumi Hakoishi 8th Dan - JKF Wado Kai
Tatsuo Suzuki 8th Dan - WIKF
Masafumi Shiomitsu* 8th Dan - Wado Ryu Karate-do Academy

All of which wear solid black Obi (*with the exception of Shiomitsu sensei who, when the last time I trained with him, was wearing a white belt).

All of which have no stripes or marks etc. I guess its the less is more thing!


same here in Indonesia, my sensei who is a 7th Dan-Renshi in the JKF-Wadokai does not wear red/white belt, he wears plain black belt with no stripes. If his black belt become faded due to constant use, he will buy a new one.

I think, in the Wado world, all the big guns who trained in the 50s and 60s were actually member of one organization, before the unfortunate 3 way splits. So, basically they all knows each other, they were (are?) friends, they know who are the best technicians, who are the best organizers, who are the closest to the Grandmaster, etc etc.

That is why, it is very difficult to claim a high rank in Wado-ryu without proper recognition from the big 3. :)

Paul Hart
15th October 2006, 04:48
whilst this is certainly not the absolute 'correct' approach I think of Sensei as 'teacher level', and Shihan as 'Master level', shihan are those who have been awarded the shihan license of renshi, kyoshi or hanshi.

agree that Sensei, Shihan etc etc never refer to themselves by those titles.


I have heard this from many in the Martial arts, but in Japan, people who teach, any kind of teaching, will refer to themselves as "Sensei" such as the lady that does my translation work for me, her card says Mayumi Sensei (www.mayumisensei.com) and there is no reason it shouldn't. We get a little carried away here with proper and not proper ideas. I dont think it would make sense to tell someone that you were a Master, but if you teach, why not say it?

As for the ranks, most of them are ways to make the Teacher and the Association more money and have little to do with Karate. The group I belong to has no belt ranks any more because we were tired of seeing 30 year old Judans with little skill and less knowledge. We leave the colored belts to the commercial karate. Fact is, it isn't what you have around your waist, it's what you can do out on the Dojo floor.

Brian Owens
15th October 2006, 10:01
...in Japan, people who teach, any kind of teaching, will refer to themselves as "Sensei"...
Mr. Hart, may I ask how long you lived in Japan?

Paul Hart
15th October 2006, 19:39
Pretty much my whole childhood up to my later teens.

To clarify my earlier post, we no longer have belt colors or ranks for adults, childrens classes still go by colored belts and we teach the children a standard version of Itosu Karate, not the curriculum taught to the adults. I have asked friends who still live over in Japan, and they say the same thing. You wouldn't want to put "Master Joe Smith" on your business card, it would make you look like a braggart. However, "Joe Smith-Teacher" is acceptable. Here in America where the family name comes after the given name, instead of before like in Japan, some would say Sensei Joe Smith. In Japan, it would be Joe Smith Sensei, or Smith Joe Sensei if we were to try to be 100% correct. Perhaps this is the reason that Karate today has grown so weak, we worry about how to say and what to say when I feel we should be worried about getting more training and that technique down. Maybe that's just my philosophy.

Oh yes, no Mr. Hart here, thats my Dad. Call me Paul please.

Brian Owens
16th October 2006, 00:46
...I have asked friends who still live over in Japan, and they say the same thing. You wouldn't want to put "Master Joe Smith" on your business card, it would make you look like a braggart. However, "Joe Smith-Teacher" is acceptable.
Ah, but "Sensei" is -- more or less -- "Master." Teacher is "Kyoshi."

I asked both Mayumi Smith Sensei and Masako Nair Sensei at the Nippon Business Institute about this (and also about karate teachers in this area who are addressed as "Shihan" by their students), and they both said the same thing.

On first meeting a class, one might say -- for example -- "My name is Masako Nair. You may address me as 'Masako Sensei' or just 'Sensei." (In fact, that's exactly what she did say at our first class. She goes by "Masako Sensei" rather than "Nair Sensei" because her married name isn't Japanese. She used to be addressed as "Imai Sensei.")

However she would not put "Masako Nair Sensei" on her business card, nor introduce herself by saying, "My name is Masako Nair Sensei." ("My name is Masako Nair, and I teach Japanese language and Japanese history" would be the acceptable way of doing it.)

The situation of some karate teachers going by "Shihan" is similar. The head of the system of Aiki Toho I formerly practiced was Kurita Minoru Shihan. We addressed him as "Sensei," not "Shihan." Using the example of a person named Jones who holds a PhD, you wouldn't address him as "PhD Jones," but as "Professor Jones." Similarly, John Williams MD, FACS wouldn't be addressed as "MD Williams" nor as "FACS Williams," but as "Doctor Williams." It would be proper to write "John Williams MD, FACS" on his business card, and to introduce himself by saying, "My name is John Williams, and I am a Fellow of the American College of Surgeons."

Taking Kurita Sensei's case and applying it to the first question, my rank certificates aren't signed "Kurita Minoru Sensei." They are signed "Kurita Minoru - Kaicho" (Kaicho is Chairman.) "Kurita Minoru - Shihan" would also be acceptable, were he not Kaicho.

I'm afraid I've strayed a bit from the original topic of this thread, but if you wish to learn more about whether or not "in Japan, people who teach, any kind of teaching, will refer to themselves as 'Sensei'," search the forums or even start a new thread in the language forum. I guarantee that several members in Japan, including a college professor and some fairly high ranking budoka, will tell you that it is not properly done that way.

HTH.

Paul Hart
16th October 2006, 01:51
Japanese=English
sensei=oath, abjuration
sensei=teacher, master, doctor
sensei=ancient sage, Confucius
sensei=despotism, autocracy
sensei=preempt, headstart (of several runs)

Many words in Japanese are used to mean many words in English. I have always taken Sensei to mean Teacher. It actually means "One who has gone before" and is taken to mean whatever the person wishes it to. This is a acticle from a Aikidoka that goes a ways into explaining the word Sensei. He is a member of this list. I am sure that others have different opinions of the word, and none are incorrect or correct as that goes. It is a matter of mostly opinion.


Lessons from the Vineyard
Thoughts on the Definition of a Budo Teacher

by Dave Lowry



How would you define a "sensei?"

This is a question I suspect almost all of us involved with the budo, or with any of the traditional Japanese arts for that matter, have struggled with. I must admit that I have directed it myself, more than once, to a person I was interviewing, particularly those more advanced exponents of martial arts, or flower arranging, or the tea ceremony. I have found that the answers that are given are an excellent way to get a measure of the person.

Perhaps as I tackle the subject here, you will gain some insight into me as well. At any rate, I would like to offer some thoughts on what it is that makes a teacher of the budo, the Japanese martial Ways. I also offer some suggestions too, on how to recognize one when you've found him or her. We should begin by noting what some of you may already know, and that is the Japanese definition of the term sensei. You have probably read elsewhere that "sensei" is comprised of two kanji or written characters, borrowed by Japan from ancient China. Sen means literally, "before" or "preceding." Sei is the character that means "life. "The life that came before," then, is a poetic way to denote someone who has walked along the Way before you and who may now show you the path as well.

However, things in Japan, particularly linguistic things, are rarely as simple as they may first appear. . . If you go to Japan or spend much time around Japanese speakers, you will hear the word "sensei" used frequently. It is used as a form of address for all teachers, public schoolteachers as well as professors at universities. The woman who teaches a kiddie gymnastics programme is called sensei, as is the president of a medical college.

Furthermore, people who are experienced in any of the arts, from pottery to kabuki theater to modem poetry are all referred to as sensei. Medical doctors are called sensei. So are Ph.D.s. As you should be beginning to see, sensei can mean a teacher in the literal sense of the word but it is also used as a title of respect. (In current Japanese slang, in fact, the word sensei is also used sarcastically. A young man-about-town will ask his friend, "Well, sensei, how did you do with the girls last night?" You ought to know right now too, that the word sensei is virtually the only title used for any martial arts teacher. This will simply crush a great many dai-soke, shihan, fuku-shidoin, and the holders of innumerable other fanciful titles in this country, but none of those terms are used in everyday parlance in the training hall in Japan. All teachers, from the most ordinary to the most renowned, are referred to as sensei, period.)

So we are left without much help in defining the sensei, not if we depend upon a literal translation of the word from Japanese, nor if we try to define it as it is actually used in Japan. The problem thus remains. Who is a sensei? How do you know when you become one, and most importantly, how do you recognize one when you set out to find him?

Well, many dojo in the West have attempted to circumvent the whole matter. Within the training structure of their schools, anyone who leads a class is called sensei. There is really nothing wrong with this. As we have just noted, the Japanese themselves play rather fast and loose with the term. But somehow, such a conclusion is not at all satisfactory. We still want a clearer definition. We want to know if the word implies merely technical skill or if the sensei must be, as well, a person of outstanding moral character.

My own thinking is that a sensei is very much like another kind of person who is responsible for important matters. A person who, like the sensei seems to be from another age, a person of rare and unique gifts. The sensei, it seems to me, is very much like a vintner. A vintner is the person who produces wine. He is the one who is responsible for it, from the planting of the grape vines, all the way until the raw wine is poured into casks to age. The vintner is the talented individual who can look at a particular hillside or a handful of soil and can tell you which kinds of grapes will grow best there, what kind of yield you can expect. He knows when the grapes need to be pruned. He makes vital decisions throughout the growing season, to fertilize, to spray for bugs. He must decide when to pick them in the fall, to wait for a few more days to let them fully ripen or to pick now and beat out the rain that can adversely affect the whole harvest.

The vintner is responsible for the blend of grapes that go into fermentation tanks. He must add the sugars if they're needed, to begin the fermentation process. In short, he is the guy responsible for the wine from the time the grape vines are planted or bud out, until the moment the wine is on its own, so to speak, when it has been put in casks and must now age and develop according to the qualities inherent in it.

Doesn't this sound very much like the sensei's task? He is the person responsible for a student, from the time that student enters the training hall until the crucial period of the training process has been completed. The sensei is a person, then, in my estimation, who can take a person of raw and unknown potential and turn out a complete and worthwhile product. He can oversee the process from beginning to end.


Now this analogy is going to require some clarification. Suppose, for instance, that the person walking into the dojo to begin training is a complete psychopath. Can the sensei still turn out a worthwhile product? Nope. No more so than the vintner can produce a great or even a drinkable vintage from the sour little grapes that grow wild on the back fence behind my house. There has to be some workable potential there from the beginning for the sensei to do his work. Do I mean to imply that all of a sensei's students will be of the same caliber and worth? No. Even the most talented vintner is bound by the grapes, the region, the weather in a particular growing season.

The sensei's products will be equally subject to the vagaries of his students' various dispositions, genetics, and physical abilities. Most importantly, we must be clear on what I mean by the "process" of training, "from beginning to end." Most of us would agree on when a person's training in the martial arts begins. But we hold it as a vital truth that training does not ever really "end." There is no graduation from the budo. They are a lifelong process. One is always learning, perfecting.

The concept of completion in the budo is foreign. Perfection is an ever-advancing goal, obviously, and this is what attracts a great many people to the budo in the first place, this promise of levels of profundity that can never be fully plumbed and always hold out the promise of further and deeper and more rewarding investigation. (It is a concept that also scares the you-know-what out of others, intimidates them and so they either abandon their practice in the face of such a daunting, never-ending task, or they award themselves silly 10th-dan or "Grandmaster" ranks or whatever, and just pretend they have learned all that is to be learned.)

I am referring to something just a little bit different when I say that a true sensei is one who can take you from beginning to end. Please think of it this way: the wine that the vintner places in aging casks is not finished in most cases. It needs time to mature, for its flavors to reach their summit. But that is a process that goes on in the wine itself. There is very, very little the winemaker can do to influence taste once the wine has reached that point. He has brought it along as far as he can, given it the ingredients it needs to complete the job. The vintner's task at that point can be considered essentially complete. The sensei oversees a similar procedure. He gives the student the basic tools needed, in the way of physical technique as well as attitude, spirit, and intellectual insight and maturity, for the student to go forth on his own, to continue on correctly and productively on his personal journey along the Way.

Let's say, for example, that Bob has been training in Shotokan karate for the past 15 years, when something changes in his life. He takes a job opportunity on the other side of the country. Or his sensei dies. Something happens that separates him from his teacher. If the sensei has done his job, all will be well with Bob. Now, that is not to say that Bob needs no further instruction, that he is on his own, his training completed. Not at all. But the sensei will have provided Bob with the abilities to find the next stage of his training. When he goes to the new city, he will visit other dojo. He will know what to look for in terms of quality in teaching, in the attitudes demonstrated at the dojo. He won't waste time exploring a training hall that won't be worth it. Perhaps he will be in a place where there is no Shotokan training hall. If so, he may visit a place teaching tai chi ch'uan or some other art. He will have the proper background to evaluate this art to see how it might help or hurt his progress and he may feel that the time is right to expand his knowledge of combative systems. He may indeed use that opportunity to study a new art such as tai chi.

In other words, Bob has been brought far enough along that he can make good choices about where he needs to go next to continue properly along the Way. In that sense, his training is "complete" in that he can begin to take some responsibility for continuing it. If the vintner has done his job well, he can sleep soundly, knowing the liquid in the casks is on its way to its own unique maturity as a wine.

So too, the sensei who has brought his student's training so far along that the student can mature as well. I should not need to tell you that the kind of vintners I've just described are pretty rare. Almost as rare as their counterparts, the sensei. There are just very few individuals who have the aptitude, the background, the ability to manage the whole, complex process of making seed and soil turn into a drinkable work of art. Even fewer who can take a person so far along in life as to make that life worthwhile and meaningful, which is the goal set before the sensei. (Please think about that last sentence, most of you who teach. What exactly is your goal as a teacher? What is it you really want to accomplish in that role?)

In most instances, in the case of the vintner, his job is taken by several people. There are people working in the average vineyard today who do nothing but work in the fields. They know the grapes well, but they may never have had the slightest role in crushing or macerating the grapes to get them ready for fermentation. The chemist who watches over that operation may never have even walked through a grape arbor. We live in an age of specialization. It is almost certain that the vast majority of martial artists in this country are not the product of a single person's tutelage.


They have not apprenticed under one sensei. They have probably never even met a sensei, not if we are using the definition I am suggesting. Instead, they have met a number of specialists, each of whom has contributed a little bit to the student's training and education. This is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. Often, it is such a process as this which makes it possible for us to eventually find a true sensei. And even if we do not, we can undoubtedly learn a great deal and grow tremendously under the supervision of dedicated specialists or seniors. (Once again, the problem of terminology enters in. What, actually, do we call these people? I tend to think of them as seniors. We may be tempted to use the Japanese word sempai. But that is not correct. A sempai is different from what we are talking about. If you use it in the context I am using then "senior" may be fine. But do not consider it to be the equivalent of the sempai as he exists in the social structure of the Japanese dojo.

It should be added at this point too, that you may often find yourself in a position where you are wise in addressing someone as sensei even though you believe they are not. This is not hypocrisy. It's just common politeness. If you're visiting a training hall and everyone is calling one person "sensei," you ought to honor that.) Once we acknowledge the rarity of the true sensei in the West and recognize that our training will in all likelihood come from a senior who is our teacher, we need to consider what it is we should look for in that senior. In my opinion, the senior who is serving as a teacher must display at least two attributes.

First, the senior must set the pace for all training. By that I mean simply this: he must be continuing his own process of training as well. If he is no longer taking instruction from either a sensei or from one or more of his own seniors, he cannot possibly teach you correctly. This sounds harsh and judgmental and I suppose it is. It is also true. Indulge me another analogy: There are many lakes in the world that are so long in their shape that looking at them from one end you would swear they are rivers. But no matter how long they are, if they are lakes, there is another, opposite shore. And if you start paddling the length of that lake, sooner or later, if you want to keep moving, you're going to have to start paddling in a circle. The water is not flowing. The senior who has mistaken his seniority for the qualifications of a sensei has a limited knowledge and more dangerously for his student's development, he is not moving along the Way himself. He will have no choice, unless he eventually sends you along to another senior or to a sensei, to stagnate your training.

This situation, of seniors either pretending to be sensei or believing themselves to be, is a very common problem in the American martial arts training hall. A person is awarded a first-degree black belt (or a fifth or sixth-degree for that matter) and he believes he has completed a process and needs no further instruction. He needs no further inspiration, he thinks, no further supervision. He is a fool. In over a quarter of a century of training in the budo in this country, I have met perhaps half a dozen individuals I would consider to be sensei. People who could, as we discussed above, take that student all the way through the training process with no outside help. Everyone else--and I mean everyone--needs more instruction from their seniors.

Maybe they need only an occasional training session. Or maybe attending a seminar a couple of times a year that is conducted by one of their seniors or a sensei. Maybe it is a trip to Japan a couple of times a decade to train with the masters there. But there must be an influx of new ideas in your teacher's life if he is going to teach you correctly. I consider this of such importance that if I were looking for a senior to teach me, one of the first things I would ask would be "Who do you train under?"

I can imagine the looks of incredulity this might get me in many Western training halls.

"Whaddya mean, I'm a master! I don't train under anyone; I teach!"

Oh really? Maybe you teach some other poor clown. But you ain't teaching me. Another answer might be something along the lines of "Well I go off to a mountain where my master lives as a hermit and I train alone with him in secret. "

Yeah right. The senior who has a teacher that he can't produce or to whom he's not willing to introduce to his students is a walking advertisement for bad budo. A real senior who is your teacher will be happy to have you train with his seniors when the opportunity presents itself. He'll probably insist, in fact, that you attend seminars or training sessions with others who are senior to him.

The senior sets the pace. He leads by example. He is not afraid to admit there are things he doesn't know. He makes it very clear that while he is the teacher and he is in charge, he is still in the process of learning, too. The second prerequisite I would insist upon in accepting a senior as a teacher would be the assurance that not only is he setting the pace, he is also going in a direction I want to go.

If I begin a study of traditional Okinawan karate, for example, I expect that to be the core of the curriculum. If the senior goes off to a Malayan bersilat seminar and comes back the next week and starts incorporating those techniques into his teaching, I'm going to be suspicious. Perhaps he is not far enough along on the Way to have decided which direction exactly he'll take. If that's the case, he sure can't be leading others.

I was told not long ago of a martial arts instructor who added a class on Ryukyuan nunchaku techniques to his teaching. Since he was teaching a Korean art, this raised some questions. The nunchaku did not exist in Korea historically, of course. When questioned about it, however, the instructor revealed his philosophy. If enough students asked about learning the nunchaku, or any other art, the instructor would go out and buy a book or video and study it and then commence instruction.

From a mercantile point of view, this makes sense. You give the customer what he's asking for. From the point of view of the budo, however, this is obviously an attitude in conflict with the tenets of the Way. Admittedly, it can be difficult for the beginner to accurately assess a senior according to the qualifications I've just laid out. The senior may tell you he's still learning and you may have little choice but to believe him. After all, even if he's ceased learning a long time ago, he still knows more than you do. And when it seems like your senior is going off on a bizarre tangent in teaching, he could just be showing you some things in his art that you did not know were there.

Far more common, though, is the student who sees discrepancies in his senior's actions or his stories but who ignores or overlooks them because of his intense desire to learn. The senior's charisma can also blind the student to obvious deficiencies. There are real sensei out there. There are also hundreds and hundreds of dedicated and skilled seniors who, while they would readily admit they are not sensei, are nonetheless very competent and able teachers who can take you a long way towards your goals. I have learned from them and I continue to do so. I hope that my analogy of the vintner and the wine specialist will put both these individuals into perspective for you. And I hope that as with a great wine, you are in the process of maturing and becoming of deep and lasting value as a martial artist yourself.


:rolleyes: I may be wrong, but this is the way I believe. I think we all make up our minds about things and that we should believe what we gain knowledge in until someone with more knowledge corrects us, but for as many as say it is wrong, the same number will say it is okay. Where does that leave us?

Brian Owens
16th October 2006, 10:33
...This is a acticle from a Aikidoka that goes a ways into explaining the word Sensei.
As always, Dave has shown an amazing ability to clarify difficult concepts with his words.

But one thing the article did not cover was what you said earlier: that in Japan, teachers refer to themselves as "Sensei" and put "Sensei" on their business cards. I'm sorry, but that just isn't proper.

(You will note, however, that he did cover my second point, about sensei using terms such as "Shihan" as an honoriffic: it's not proper.)


...I think we all make up our minds about things and that we should believe what we gain knowledge in until someone with more knowledge corrects us, but for as many as say it is wrong, the same number will say it is okay. Where does that leave us?
It leaves us where we were before. I doubt you will find "the same number" of native speakers of Japanese -- in Japan -- who say it's okay to address one's self as "Sensei" as who will say it's not okay. I also doubt you will find the same number of experienced, traditional, Budoka in the West who says it's okay as who say it's not.

The kind of "there is no right or wrong, it's all opinion" thinking that you are suggesting truly disturbs me. If that were true, then there would be no need of sensei at all. We could all just declare ourselves to be masters and start our own martial arts. When "nothing is wrong," then there is no need of "one who has gone before" to show us what is right.

Where would that leave us?

Brian Owens
16th October 2006, 10:40
Japanese=English
sensei=oath, abjuration
sensei=teacher, master, doctor
sensei=ancient sage, Confucius
sensei=despotism, autocracy
sensei=preempt, headstart (of several runs)

BTW, several of the definitions you posted there aren't even the same word we're talking about. They're merely homophones.

You might as well post definitions of "pair" and "pare" in a discussion about "pears."

Paul Hart
16th October 2006, 11:26
But one thing the article did not cover was what you said earlier: that in Japan, teachers refer to themselves as "Sensei" and put "Sensei" on their business cards. I'm sorry, but that just isn't proper.

I said that some teachers when asked would say they were Sensei, it is not improper for a teacher to say they are a teacher. This word is deemed to mean "teacher" in Japan. Mayumi san is in America, actually in Seattle. She is Japanese and if asked she will reply that yes, she is a Sensei in that she teaches Japanese language to people who become her students. I have her business card in front of me with the heading on it of "Mayumi-Sensei's Japanese Class" and all I was saying is that it is not correct to call yourself a Master, or ask to be addressed as Shihan, Hanshi, Soke or whatever, but it was common place in Japan for people to say they were Sensei, of whatever disipline they teach, which may or may not be Martial arts related. At least, that is my understanding.

Far be it from me to tell you that starting your own style would be wrong, because that would probably put more than half the Karate people out there out of business if it were wrong. I do my best not to judge, it is not my place and I do not have the knowledge to judge others unless they wish to step on the floor with me. Then maybe I can tell you my opinion of thier skill level. What would it matter? After all, it would only be my opinion.

The dictionary post was to show that it can mean a great deal of different things when it is written in the English language. I was unaware that "Master" was one of them, as I had always placed Hanshi or shihan as "Master" and Sensei as "teacher" so I have learned from our conversation, thank you, Sensei.

Brian Owens
16th October 2006, 11:57
I said that some teachers when asked would say they were Sensei, it is not improper for a teacher to say they are a teacher.
If that is what you meant, then I don't completely disagree with with you. It is fine for a teacher to say, "I am a teacher." (They probably wouldn't use "sensei," though, but "kyoshi.") However that wasn't what I thought you were saying.

When you responded to shoshinkan's statement that "Sensei, Shihan etc etc never refer to themselves by those titles" by your saying "in Japan, people who teach, any kind of teaching, will refer to themselves as 'Sensei'," I thought you were suggesting that they would refer to themselves by the title "sensei" (not "...as a sensei"). In other words, I thought you were saying Japanese teachers might say, for example, "I am Suzuki Sensei."

"I am Suzuki Sensei" is quite different than "My name is Suzuki. I am a teacher," or "Please address me as 'Suzuki Sensei' in class." By the same token, I wouldn't say "My name is Owens-san." I would say "My name is Owens" and the other person would then refer to me as "Owens-san."

Anyway, I'm glad we cleared up the confusion.

Paul Hart
16th October 2006, 17:10
Yes, that is how I meant it, to say that is what they did. I remember well meeting my early grade school teacher, I think first grade. She was Japanese and teaching on base. When she went up to the board she said, you can call me Ms. ? or ? sensei, which is Japanese for teacher. I dont really remember her name, just that she used Sensei, which had always stuck in my mind. I have never heard anyone but Non-Japanese refer to themselves as kyoshi or Shihan, or the dreaded Soke. There are so many titles anymore that I do not try to keep them strait. Thanks for the enlightening conversation, as I said, I was unaware that Sensei could mean "Master" as well. Which proves that learning is always available.

Paul Hart
17th October 2006, 20:11
Mr. Owens, I did some checking and I would like to apologize to you as you are correct and I am not. When I asked and explained why I thought it was proper that if someone asked you it was normal to say you were a Sensei. I was told that this may have been because I was American and the rules for dealing with countrymen and foreigners are different.

It has been a long time since Yakota air Base and sometimes I do not remember well. I promised myself a while back to stop posting on Forums, and now I will do just that. It is not because of this thread, but is because I have found that anything you post will be taken out of context, and will be beat to death by people who have little understanding of Karate or Budo for that matter. I was always taught to go to a person with a problem, but to talk bad about another individual without him around would make me a coward. I have found two truths on my internet venture, one is that people who are real, and care about training and keeping what they do alive are not sitting in front of a computer posting mostly worthless mumbo jumbo. Two is that the Internet allows you to be a coward and to say things about people to a large group that may or may not like you. I have done it, as I thought a guy who did a no touch knock out on TV was full of it. However, that was bad on my part, not to have that opinion, but to put it out there for everyone and not tell the person who I felt it for. My teacher may have been a fraud, I dont know. There are a few out there that learned from Okinawan and Japanese who were less than honest. I don't know or care because what I do works, and it works great for me.

There are a lot of people who I wish to train with, and study under. I have already started that course. I will let the arm chair warriors do the Internet thing. No hard feelings to them, they are always welcome to come train if they would like to see what I do. My door is always open to another Karateka.
Have a good day all.

Jonesy
17th October 2006, 22:15
Just some information.

Living in Japan in 1992/93 I understood that "it is rude to be polite about yourself". So, when I introduced myself I never said:

"I am Jones-san" or "I am Jones-sensei" - I just said "I am Jones". Others will chose to append the honorific suffix of -san or -sensei as they chose.

In the Japanese workplace some people were known as Tanaka-kacho, Tanaka-bucho, Tanaka-Kaicho etc to denote that they were Section Managers or Department Managers or Directors etc...

Brian Owens
17th October 2006, 23:24
Mr. Owens, I did some checking and I would like to apologize to you as you are correct and I am not.
Apology accepted, although I don't think one is needed.

You said what you thought was correct, and we discussed/debated it. I thought it was a good educational experience, and something we both -- as well as other forum members current and future -- got something out of.


...I promised myself a while back to stop posting on Forums, and now I will do just that. It is not because of this thread, but is because I have found that anything you post will be taken out of context, and will be beat to death by people who have little understanding of Karate or Budo for that matter.
We get some of that, to be sure, but we also have many experienced Budoka who post here. While one cannot learn martial arts from the Internet, books, videos, etc., it can be a place for exchanging ideas, for fellowship, and for seeing other perspectives.

The Language, History & Culture, and Members Lounge fora are my favorite hangouts, plus -- of course -- the two fora I moderate; Budo and the Body, and Clothing & Supplies.

I hope that, even if you cut back on your posting, that you won't disappear completely. I'd miss your input.

Anyway, good luck with your new location, new job, etc. Don't forget to buy some GoreTex; the rainy season is upon us...for the next nine months. ;)

Paul Hart
18th October 2006, 00:50
Thank you Brian, but the reasons have little to do with E-Budo. I always found the people here knowledgeable and due respect. I have just become depressed with the state of Karate in general and the people who sit on the PC thinking they know everything. There are even some guys who trained with what I would consider the top Okinawan Martial Artist in the U.S. that lacks heart and is a Needer, a word my group uses to describe someone who needs more training for his body, mind or spirit. The time I send writing and reading coulkd be used to hone my technique.

I also tire of people who question about my training. If i grew up in Japan, and all that. I spent many years there, as my Father did three tours at Yakota. I returned when I was 17. I have been back a number of times and still love the Orient. My Sensei taught a total of 5 students. His opinion was it takes a special kind of person to learn true Karate. It is not and never was for the masses. He had no desire to pass it on to the same masses. I am still learning about where he recieved his training from. I do know that I enjoy what I do and I believe in it 100%. I will never start my own system as many do because I still have a lot to learn about the one I do. Maybe so many are doing that now because theysee the holes in thier Modern Karate. Brian, you seem like a great guy and I hope one day we can get together and work out, any who wish to work out, and desire to teach or learn, please give me a call. My number is 253-653-2780.I like all Martial Artists, but I think I will just hold off on the computer conversations and meet people face to face.

shoshinkan
10th December 2006, 22:28
'There are even some guys who trained with what I would consider the top Okinawan Martial Artist in the U.S. that lacks heart and is a Needer, a word my group uses to describe someone who needs more training for his body, mind or spirit. The time I send writing and reading coulkd be used to hone my technique.'

Ok so thats me your refering to, I shall ask you this just once - please don't feel you need to make stupid comments about me on public forums, you are letting yourself down Paul if thats your name eh?????

Paul Hart
10th December 2006, 22:44
If the shoe fits then I am sorry for you. I have never met you so I guess that would be up to you to decide. Paul Hart truly is only a screen name, the people who use it prefer to remain anonymous as we do not feel the need to advertise what we do. But no, I was not speaking about you specifically.

I was taking the term as it is used among Martial artists. You can find an explanation of it here at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needer and seems like a fitting term. I have heard that you only have 8 months or so in Matsumura Seito training yet you talk and act like you have many years and have mastered the art. Maybe the term would fit you, from what I have heard.

Brian Owens
10th December 2006, 23:08
...Paul Hart truly is only a screen name, the people who use it prefer to remain anonymous as we do not feel the need to advertise what we do.
The E-Budo rule requiring that each poster use his or her real name, a rule that you agreed to when you joined our forum, is not one that can be violated without consequences.

I have reported this post to the E-Budo administration.

shoshinkan
10th December 2006, 23:22
I look forward (as I am sure many others do) for Mr Paul Hart being banned for being dishonest about his real name for so long etc etc.

Of course this is just the tip of Pauls iceberg.............

Paul Hart
10th December 2006, 23:28
Yea, that affect me how? To many names use this screen name to list and I am not a liberty to do that anyway. You never know, I am sure that more than a few of us have other names that we may be under. Of course, you could ban my web address as we know how hard those are to bounce.

I believe that Internet Protocal says to "never give out your real name online" this is common knowledge among people who teach Internet Security. If I am removed it will surely disappoint me.



Juan Valdez Gonzalex Himinez Rodrigues Escobar

John Lindsey
10th December 2006, 23:56
Yea, that affect me how? To many names use this screen name to list and I am not a liberty to do that anyway. You never know, I am sure that more than a few of us have other names that we may be under. Of course, you could ban my web address as we know how hard those are to bounce.

I believe that Internet Protocal says to "never give out your real name online" this is common knowledge among people who teach Internet Security. If I am removed it will surely disappoint me.



Juan Valdez Gonzalex Himinez Rodrigues Escobar
Well, since you don't want to follow my rule, then the best thing is not to post anymore. It is that simple...

Paul Hart
11th December 2006, 08:28
Fair enough Mr. Lindsey. Your house, your rules. No hard feelings! I ahve sent you a private email on this as well.

shoshinkan
17th December 2006, 23:30
so Paul Hart what is your real name then?

trevorg
18th December 2006, 18:03
I suppose its a bit like the title of Corporate "Director". (or in the US, Vice President).

I work along side them all day but, don't refer to them as Director Michael and Director Keith for example.

I know one thing though, they earn a darn sight more money than me!!

Gary Needham

But if you worked in Germany, for example, you would expect to call someone Herr Director Professor Schmidt for example. Horses for courses.

Osu
Trevor

trevorg
18th December 2006, 18:19
Just to spoil the fun a bit and get back to the mission of the thread.
In my style, Kyokushin, all 5th dans and above are referred to as Shihan. On the floor they should be called Sensei. To my knowledge the classical exemplar titles do not apply - I stand corrected.

As to addressing someone as Shihan, I am afraid it is a Western bastardisation which seems to have spread worldwide in many instances. For example, I am in frequent email with extremely highly graded Kyokushin sensei and it is most common for someone to be referred to as Shihan XXXXX, even by Japanese.

On the other hand I imagine some teachers rather like it, others get it imposed on them by students who may have heard it somewhere or misinterpreted how their teacher was addressed by another senior. Sad to say I have even heard it diminished to Rensh, Kyosh and Hansh, and not even without the teacher's surname appended to it (prefix or suffix).

My twopennorth for what its worth.
osu
Trevor