Reverse Grip Iai?

[Jack Chen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkHB9RPR0E&search=kenjutsu

[ZealUK]

Well I looked up Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and came across their Japanese website...

http://www.jigenryu.jp/index.php

One of the links from that site was this lineage chart...

http://www.geocities.jp/jigenryusoke/kennokeifu.htm

Which seems to indicate that Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu was founded in AD 931 and subsequently spurned Shinto Ryu, Kashima Ryu, Bokuden Ryu, Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu (wrong kanji?), and others.

Sounds a little odd to me, as I believe it is widely regarded that Katori Shinto Ryu is the oldest extant koryu in Japan.

Any thoughts on this?

[Fred27]

Dunno for sure about the reverse-grip...But if no samurai in the entire history of the warrior caste of Japan never developed techniques (or minor ryu of some sort) that included a reverse-grip I would be surprised. That doesn't mean this particular ryu is the real thing though.

The lineage do sound suspect.


Well I looked up Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, and came across their Japanese website...

http://www.jigenryu.jp/index.php

One of the links from that site was this lineage chart...

http://www.geocities.jp/jigenryusoke/kennokeifu.htm

Which seems to indicate that Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu was founded in AD 931 and subsequently spurned Shinto Ryu, Kashima Ryu, Bokuden Ryu, Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu (wrong kanji?), and others.

Sounds a little odd to me, as I believe it is widely regarded that Katori Shinto Ryu is the oldest extant koryu in Japan.

Any thoughts on this?

[100110]

I agree that the kanji for Tenshinshoden Katori Shintoryu seem unusual. I've seen various ways of writing the name but can't recall that particular version. I recognize the 'shin' from 'shingon', as in Shingon Buddhism, but the 'den' looks like the 'hiro' or 'haku' from 'Hiromichi' or 'Hakudo' (as in Nakayama). That's the only way I know how to read that character, and my dictionary's in another country so perhaps someone else will know. Katori shintoryu is written in one of the two ways I'm familiar with.

[pgsmith]

Many of the koryu have at least one or two specific situation kata where the hand is reversed, but it is fairly unusual.

Also, if I remember correctly, Maniwa Nen ryu is older that TSKSR.

Founded in 931 sounds ridiculous to me though.

[Eric Spinelli]

Figure 1: Principle teacher-student relationships of the Kashima-Shinryu and branch schools, pg 20-21, Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday list the following ryuha has inter-related (may be incomplete):

Arima Ryu
Aizu Itto-ryu
Bokuden Ryu
Hosoin Ryu
Kashima-Shinryu
Kashima Shintoryu
Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage-ryu
Shingo Shinkage Ryu
Shinkage Ichien-ryu
Shinkage Ryu
Shin-Shinkage Ryu
Shinto Ryu
Taisha Ryu
Tanabe Ryu
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

These are all schools descendent from the Kashima Grand Shrine, some of which are listed in ZealUK's post above. It was my understanding that the traditions of the Katori Grand Shrine were separate, as the two shrines are (at least today) in separate prefectures and enshrine different dieties.

I could be wrong but I figured I'd throw that out there since the book is sitting next to my laptop and "three" (Kashima ryu and Shinto ryu seem generic to me) of the ryuha above are listed in the lineage.

EDIT: clib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/japan/jigen.html claims Jigen Ryu was founded by Togo Shigekura Bijen-no Kami (1563-1643) and was famous in Satsuma which is geographically very far from either of the two shrines mentioned above.

[ZealUK]

Figure 1: Principle teacher-student relationships of the Kashima-Shinryu and branch schools, pg 20-21, Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday list the following ryuha has inter-related (may be incomplete):

Arima Ryu
Aizu Itto-ryu
Bokuden Ryu
Hosoin Ryu
Kashima-Shinryu
Kashima Shintoryu
Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage-ryu
Shingo Shinkage Ryu
Shinkage Ichien-ryu
Shinkage Ryu
Shin-Shinkage Ryu
Shinto Ryu
Taisha Ryu
Tanabe Ryu
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

These are all schools descendent from the Kashima Grand Shrine, some of which are listed in ZealUK's post above. It was my understanding that the traditions of the Katori Grand Shrine were separate, as the two shrines are (at least today) in separate prefectures and enshrine different dieties.

I could be wrong but I figured I'd throw that out there since the book is sitting next to my laptop and "three" (Kashima ryu and Shinto ryu seem generic to me) of the ryuha above are listed in the lineage.

EDIT: clib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/japan/jigen.html claims Jigen Ryu was founded by Togo Shigekura Bijen-no Kami (1563-1643) and was famous in Satsuma which is geographically very far from either of the two shrines mentioned above.

Actually Jigen Ryu is also linked to Katori Shinto Ryu. Togo Chuui went to Tenneiji temple in Kyoto to study under the monk Zenkichi in 1588. There he learned Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu (slightly different kanji) which was a ryu founded by a student of Katori Shinto Ryu.

I realise there is a great deal of mixing of ryuha, and that many can be traced back to one of the few big, old schools.

I just wonder how this particular Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu can claim such a long lineage.

[cxt]

The best that can be said of any "reverse grip" use of the sword is that is a most uncommon grip.

Some ryu have some kata (at best) that use such a grip for a specific tactical reason.

If such a use/grip were readily, practical useful then the "reverse" ;) would be true.

It would BE the de-facto "normal" use/grip instead of the other way around.

The fact that its so rare is a pretty good indication of its of limited utility.

[Johnny Yuma]

I would agree with everything you said Chris, except--

"The fact that its so rare is a pretty good indication of its of limited utility."

Plenty of rare things are very useful.

[cxt]

Johnny

I meant useful" in the in the larger sense/context of JSA swordwork.

Of course I agree that rare things are often very useful indeed. :)

[spencer burns]

I would argue that there are a number of advantages to reverse grip draws, but enough disadvantages that they are rightly left as variations rather than the foundation.

The principle advantage I have seen is that a reverse-grip draw is easier to accomplish with certain types of evasive footwork. This is especially true when turning counter-clockwise. It is also useful for a quick rear thrust off your right side after a draw.

The biggest disadvantage is of course that it is difficult to cut with a one-handed reverse grip ("Zatoichi" movies notwithstanding). Any cut off of the draw is liable to be superficial. However, if one adds the left hand in a forward grip, strong but short range cuts can be done after the draw. And at that point one can switch to a normal grip without much difficulty.

In the end, I suspect that the unusualness of these draws is really their chief advantage; that is, a mediocre draw that your opponent doesn't expect might be better than an excellent draw that he does.

[fifthchamber]

I've seen the Ryuha do enbu here in Tokyo..Quite good stuff I think.
And they don't claim the ryuha was founded in the 10th Century. Only that the basis for their art dates back that far.. The Kashima no Tachi ideas...Many schools use them and it is not unusual to see a line connected to them in some way.
The Tenshin Sho Jigen Ryu claims a 400 year lineage dating back to a Setoguchi Bizen no Kami Masamoto...Who created the Ryugi of the school..He is listed as Ryuso or founder.
The "lineage" pointed to earlier is a generalised sword arts lineage (Ken no Keifu 剣の系譜 ) in Japan..Showing the lines that most of the Kenjutsu Ryuha here date back too..The Tenshin Sho Jigen Ryu in question is the school in white in the center of the page. The one below the other Jigen Ryu ( 天眞正自顕流 ).
Their demos are good to watch..But other than that I can't say much about them..
Regards.

[fifthchamber]

Oh, Alex,
You can see that your line of the Jigen Ryu is also listed above that of the Jigen Ryu in question. 天眞正自顕流 is listed as the origin for the Jigen Ryu ( 示現流 ), and comes one line up from the 天眞正自源流 in question..And both fall under the 自顕流 that came from the Shinto Ryu.
Interesting Keifu actually..Seems to have most schools in that line listed..It seems also that the Nodachi Jigen Ryu ( 野太刀自顕流 ) is listed as coming from the Tenshin Sho Jigen Ryu in question here..Cool links..
Regards.

[Alex Dale]

Okay, I've been slightly confused about this for some time, so maybe Mr. Bradshaw or some of the other folks over in Japan can help me understand this [in English]...

Basically, can someone help me understand which are all of the different lines of Jigen-ryu still extant? I don't mean EVERY SINGLE one if there are, you know, some obscure branches practiced under the watch of tengu on top of Fuji-san.. but I just need someone to sort it all out. I understand there is like.. Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu.. but are there multiple "Tenshinsho.." ryuha? There is Yakumaru, Nodachi (I think, as was mentioned earlier..).. I'm sure it goes on.

Is there one considered "mainline" or orthodox? Which line are you studying, Mr. Bradshaw?


Thank you for your patience, this will really help me out.

[Steve Delaney]

Alex Dale,

Yakumaru Jigen-ryu & Nodachi Jigen-ryu are the same offshoot of the ryuha.

[renfield_kuroda]

Reverse grip; useful sometimes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/renfield/sets/72157594147475440/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4862464893504391493

Regards,

r e n

[ZealUK]

Okay, I've been slightly confused about this for some time, so maybe Mr. Bradshaw or some of the other folks over in Japan can help me understand this [in English]...

Basically, can someone help me understand which are all of the different lines of Jigen-ryu still extant? I don't mean EVERY SINGLE one if there are, you know, some obscure branches practiced under the watch of tengu on top of Fuji-san.. but I just need someone to sort it all out. I understand there is like.. Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu.. but are there multiple "Tenshinsho.." ryuha? There is Yakumaru, Nodachi (I think, as was mentioned earlier..).. I'm sure it goes on.

Is there one considered "mainline" or orthodox? Which line are you studying, Mr. Bradshaw?


Thank you for your patience, this will really help me out.

Ok this may be a little complicated....

天真正自顕流　(Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu) was created by Sose Yozaemon Nagamune, a student of the third or fourth headmaster of Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu.

One student of the Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu attained a menkyo kaiden, and then killed the man responsible for murdering his father. This man later became the monk Zenkichi. Zenkichi studied and taught martial arts from this point on at the Tennei temple in Kyoto.

Following this Togo Shigetada (Chuui) accompanied the lord of Satsuma to Kyoto to learn about making laquerware. He was already Menkyo Kaiden in Taisha Ryu kenjutsu.

He learned about Zenkichi, and for some reason decided to study under him. Chuui then returned to Satsuma and eventually created 示現流 (Jigen Ryu).

Then along came a guy called Yakumaru Kanetaka. He studied Jigen Ryu under the third generation (off the top of my head) of the Togo family. Later Yakumaru combined the Jigen Ryu teaching he had learned with his family transmitted art of Nodachi Ryu - creating 薬丸自顕流　（Yakumaru Jigen Ryu） also known as 野太刀自顕流 (Nodachi Jigen Ryu).

Subsequently there were several offshoots from Jigen Ryu, for example 古示現流 (Ko Jigen Ryu), 小示現流　(Ko Jigen Ryu), 中村流　(Nakamura Ryu), 笠間示現流 (Kasama Jigen Ryu) etc...

Now only Jigen Ryu and Yakumaru (Nodachi) Jigen Ryu are still practiced. Kasama Jigen Ryu is perhaps still practiced, but I wouldn't have a clue where.

So, one could say the lineage would read....

Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu 天真正自顕流

Jigen Ryu Hyoho 示現流兵法

Yakumaru Jigen Ryu (Nodachi Jigen Ryu) 薬丸自顕流 ( 野太刀自顕流 )

I practice Jigen Ryu Hyoho in Kagoshima.

Thanks Ben for clearing up my mistakes with the chart...obviously I need to read it closer (or better).

I don't know anything about this other Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu ( 天眞正自源流 ), but I will agree that their demonstrations are pretty impressive. I don't believe however that they have any relation to Satsuma, or the Jigen Ryu practiced here.

I just wish someone would think up names that sound phonetically different! Too bloody confusing!

[fifthchamber]

Hi Alex,
The group in question were based in Satsuma until the time of the last head I think I read..They now seem to be based in the Kanto area, Saitama..
Good stuff..And I agree with you about the phonetics..The Japanese really think they are funny with this stuff...
All sounds the same to me..

[Alex Dale]

Mr. Bradshaw,


Thank you very much for sorting that out. Althought I'm still slightly confused, I think I can figure it out now.


So you practice the Jigen-ryu as passed down by the Togo family? And you are saying that your Jigen-ryu has nothing to do with the Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu as seen above?


If that's the case.. then that makes sense. :)



Best regards,

[fifthchamber]

Alex Dale,
Take a look at the Ken no Keifu ( 剣の系譜 ) listed above. That should show you all the links that these schools had to each other rather well..As well as links with other schools and rough time placings as well.
From what I have seen of them, the Jigen Ryu in question does things rather differently from the line headed by Togo Sensei.
Regards

[ZealUK]

Mr. Bradshaw,


Thank you very much for sorting that out. Althought I'm still slightly confused, I think I can figure it out now.


So you practice the Jigen-ryu as passed down by the Togo family? And you are saying that your Jigen-ryu has nothing to do with the Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu as seen above?


If that's the case.. then that makes sense. :)



Best regards,

Correct on both counts.

I'm not sure about this Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu being in Satsuma. I too have read that, but I haven't yet come across anyone down here who knows of them.

Jigen Ryu Hyoho was the official style of Satsuma Han from the year 1604 ( 慶長九年 ). Yakumaru Jigen Ryu was also very widely practiced, mainly by the lower class, or poorer samurai. Bushi most likely practiced either of these ryu, Satsuma Kage No Ryu or Kurama Yooshin Ryu.

I believe there were origionally 14 families charged with teaching martial arts at the Embukan and Zoshinkan complexes in Kagoshima. I should imagine they each took charge of Sojutsu, Bajutsu, etc.

Anyway I'm going off on a tangent....

I imagine is possible that Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu was extant in Satsuma somewhere, perhaps it was not well known.

[Alex Dale]

Thank you for that informative post Mr. Bradshaw. Things are much clearer for me now.


Regards,