Nami Ryu demo video

[Ren Blade]

This was on June 10, 2006.

A Nami Ryu demonstration of tameshigiri with a little glimpse into old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu of our system of ancient Samurai combative arts. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Q1rfLJigQ

[Alex Dale]

Interesting video clip. Thank you for posting this, Walter. I've always wondered what the kenjutsu kata of Nami-ryu looked like.


Regards,

[Ren Blade]

You're welcome Alex. Yes, those are just a few of the Nami Ryu Kenjutsu kata and Iaijutsu kata.

Regards,
Walter

[M.Clay]

This was on June 10, 2006.

A Nami Ryu demonstration of tameshigiri with a little glimpse into old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu of our system of ancient Samurai combative arts. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Q1rfLJigQ

Hey Ren Blade,

Nice!! now I really wish I lived in San Marcos instead of Yosemite.Nooooo
Koryu of any kind within 300+ miles.
Mike

[Ren Blade]

Mike,

That is unfortunate there isn't available training near you. There is a seminar happening in October in Encinitas, CA.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=416424#post416424

If you can fly out to this one you'll get some good solid training to take home with you to practice.

[chrismoses]

This was on June 10, 2006.

A Nami Ryu demonstration of tameshigiri with a little glimpse into old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu of our system of ancient Samurai combative arts. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Q1rfLJigQ

Nice demo...
...but...
it seems a bit of a stretch to be referring to an art that's, what, 15 years old (?) as ancient. I realize James based his stuff on older arts, but it's goshin budo. Be proud of what your doing, but call it what it is, K?

(And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not dissing James, I'm not discrediting where he learned what he did, and I'm not saying James isn't a bada55. There's a very real precident for VERY modern arts talking up their ancient heritage and trust me man, you don't want to play in that sandbox.)

/rant

[Aden]

I confess I wondered about where it sits and the terminology of the first post after popping over to the elegant Dojo of the Four Winds website - being a ZNKR/FIK type I have a differentiation in my head between my ZNKR seitei as gendai arts where the forms are derived from classical forms (and in many cases are still almost identical to the classical form) using classical weaponry but they are not old arts - and my koryu where they are 400+ year old arts.

(I also confess that until @ 10 years ago I had no such differentiation - it was all Samurai martial arts to me as I happily pounded on peoples heads with a shinai and practiced seitei iai :) the difference between samurai and aristocracy, high and low samurai, gendai and koryu, budo and bujutsu were not even on my horizon despite reading Draeger and a passing familiarity with Japanese history).

[Ren Blade]

That's interesting. I guess it depends how you look at it. Thank you for sharing your perspectives and observations.

[Carl Long]

Hello Mr. Wong,

I don't think those are just perspectives. I believe that these gentlemen have stated the facts. Mr Williams has artfully created a modern method of swordsmanship and other related arts based on his experiences in training with gentlemen who teach and license others in specific Koryu related arts. Nami ryu however is not a koryu art. I don't think that Mr. Williams would want anyone to believe otherwise. At least that is not the intention I have ever received from him when we have spoken about the style he founded. He appears to be quite proud of the methods he has created and I am sure he would want others to know where these methods came from. He is a true gentleman and I am happy to call him a casual friend.

I do find your use of the wording here and on other forums, "old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu of our system of ancient Samurai combative arts," quite an interesting way of addressing and skirting the issue at the same time. I notice you don't use the words koryu, much to your credit. Perhaps these terms are used only by yourself to discribe the arts you believe you are studying? Just a guess on my part however.

FWIW, I truly enjoyed watching the demo as always.

Respectfully,

Carl Long

[spencer burns]

I think this is an interesting semantic question, and one that I have hit my head against in the past. Would this discussion be different if the post had said just "classical" instead of "old classical"? What about "classical style"?

How do you appropriately convey that an art is in a "classical style" when it does not meet the definition of "kobudo" or "koryu"? A lot of these arts have a distinct classical "flavor" and are descended directly from kobudo arts, but there does not seem to be a concise term that easily distinguishes such an art from a modern syncretic kenjutsu put together by a teacher without traditional training.

Although, to twist my point in knots...I'm curious, how much of Nami-Ryu's kenjutsu is influenced by non-JSA sources like Systema as opposed to the teachings of Yanagi-Ryu and Kuroda Sensei?

[Charles Mahan]

A lot of these arts have a distinct classical "flavor" and are descended directly from kobudo arts, but there does not seem to be a concise term that easily distinguishes such an art from a modern syncretic kenjutsu put together by a teacher without traditional training.

Why wouldn't gendai fit the bill? How do you seperate folks like Obata-sensei and Williams-sensei from "modern syncretic kenjutsu put together by a teacher without traditional training"? Easy, we usually refer to the "make it up based on the occasional seminar, book, and samurai movie" guys as McDojo Sokey-Dokeys.

[Neil Yamamoto]

I've known James since about the late 80's. He and Dave Slocumbe were major eye openers for me in how to deal with big trained guys who liked to fight. I'd dealt with lots of big guys, but only a few big trained guys like James and Dave. It changed how I viewed things for the better.

I'm not in touch with James a lot, we both have busy lives, but we have gotten along over the years, and we share many common friends and social acquaintances.

Now, in the whole time I've ever known James and since he took the initiative to develop what he knew into the creation of Nami Ryu, I've never heard him refer to what he does as anything but his creation. Never as a koryu, Japanese classical bujutsu/budo but simply as an outgrowth of his study in the arts taught by Kuroda Sensei and Angier Sensei. I remember being at in the dojo and we were all a bit lit up on Knob Creek and beers, James being a bit happy, told me he was trying to make his understanding of Yanagi ryu fit with all the other things he had trained in previously and referred to it as James jutsu all the time.

After he started studying with Kuroda Sensei, I saw the shift in how it was presented and it was apparent when I saw James demo at the Yoshida Ha Bujutsu dojo opening, he had consolidated things much more in a cohesive teaching methodology. But even then he never made any claims to be doing a koryu and at the party that evening still called it James jutsu and referred to it as his own presentation of what he had been taught, not as Komagawa-Kaishin ryu or Shidare Yanagi Ryu, even if he did perform kata from the Komagawa Kaishin ryu at the demo.

In fact, the only people I've ever heard refer to it as classical kenjutsu are junior students or people who are not students of Nami Ryu. Check the Dojo of the 4 Winds website, nowhere on there does James refer to it as a classical Kenjutsu or iaijutsu.

So, if James, who is the head of the art you study Walter, doesn't refer to it as such, as you sure you should be doing so?

Sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong again...

[chrismoses]

(Stepping dangerously close to the is/is not koryu question...)

For me it's pretty simple:
-Koryu: Japanese budo founded pre-meiji (1868).
-Gendai: Japanese budo founded in the meiji era and beyond.
-Goshin: Non-Japanese budo founded in meiji/modern era *outside of Japan* but with obvious and verifiable roots back to Gendai or Koryu arts.
-MMA: Martial arts with various cultural influences and no specific fundamental tie back to gendai/koryu arts, but can have some significant similarities.

The difficulty is that there's no judgement here (or shouldn't be) about the quality of the art by putting it into one of these groups. There's some really bad koryu out there whose practitioners couldn't fight their way out of a wet noodle rope, and there's some MMA guys who are really really good. For me, it's about honesty. The sword art I study is gendai (founded in 1890), but after over a decade I'm still finding more depth in the waza. When I stack what I'm doing up against other arts I've seen at embukai and taikai, I never feel left out. My aiki/jujutsu that I do is even younger, and at this point definitely goshin budo. It's changed too much from what came over to even be considered gendai in my mind, but it's great. I just love getting to work on such difficult stuff with some great guys.

I don't really like to see really modern arts talking up their arts as if they were koryu. I think IshiYama is even referring to itself as "Shin-Koryu" that just doesn't do it for me. I also find it interesting that the goshin arts are the ones most likely to be using 'soke' 'kaicho' and all of the really formal language. Most of the gendai and koryu guys I know just use 'sensei' when referring to people (unless they're specifically talking about organizational structure).

[Charles Mahan]

I suppose Goshin would be more appropriate at that.

[renfield_kuroda]

We practice old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu at Boston Nami Ryu in the Boston, MA area.

A Nami Ryu demonstration of tameshigiri with a little glimpse into old classical Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu of our system of ancient Samurai combative arts

Kenjutsu is the Omote or outward manifestation of the Samurai bugei. Aiki jujutsu is the Ura or inner manifestation. The connection to Kenjutsu is the reason that classical jujutsu and aiki jujutsu is so sophisticated, simple, and effective.
For someone who doesn't know anything from anything, I would say the choice of wording and turns of phrase as quoted above seem a rather roundabout way of describing the art, as it is most certainly is not, by any definition, a classical/ancient/Japanese/koryu art.

Furthermore, I find the description of Namiryu (http://dojoofthefourwinds.com/origins.html) quite misleading (whether intentional or not):

Traditionally martial arts in Japan are passed on from teacher to student by direct transmission. The origins of Nami ryu are in the martial traditions of the Yoshida clan of the Satsuma region of Kyushu, Japan.
Kind of makes it sound like James inherited (densho-sareta) Namiryu directly from his Japanese sensei.

I think the problem is (and not limited to this discussion only): for folks who are not actively and deeply involved in a koryu at a true sensei-deshi level, the concept of teacher-student transmission, and the responsibilities to the ryu encompassed in the relationship, are difficult if not impossible to grasp. Perhaps a discussion for another thread...

Regards,
r e n

[DDATFUS]

Kind of makes it sound like James inherited (densho-sareta) Namiryu directly from his Japanese sensei.


The first time I skimmed the Dojo of the Four Winds website, I was very confused about this. There was lots of reference to classical arts, but I couldn't tell where those arts were coming from. However, when I took the time to read the articles on the website, including Stan Pranin's interview of James Williams, everything was spelled out much more clearly. The information is all there-- you just have to do a bit of digging.

[chrismoses]

The information is all there-- you just have to do a bit of digging.

I think that's the problem that Ren is addressing... One shouldn't need to dig.

edit: I think the current site is very clear about what James is teaching and where he learned it from. I don't want it to sound like I feel James is being deceptive, he's very open about where things come from, but I do get tired of all the kids on bugei's swordforum talking about how James is the "Last Samurai." I'm using quotes there because I've read more than one person state that over there.

[kdlarman]

First let me remind everyone that I moderate Bugei's forum for them. So by all means take anything I say with a grain of salt if you wish. I do not train with James or his group fwiw.

I'd have to point out that some of those folk over on Bugei's forum are also James' students. And like most devoted students they do tend to idolize their sensei. Others get a bit effusive in their praise, but also remember that James is out there constantly doing demos and promoting his swords. So I think it is somewhat inevitable as he is "out there" in the public eye. Most do their thing in private, shun public demos, and if they're on-line at all for the most part don't post much of anything on websites or forums. And with some merit and precedent at that. But James isn't that way. He isn't teaching a koryu either. And combined with James' own strong opinions on many things (themselves topics we could debate until the end of time) people will tend to have strong opinions about him.

But I've never heard James refer to his stuff as koryu. Or anything more than what he developed from what he had learned through Angier and Kuroda (combined with everything else for that matter). Of course he feels that many *techniques* are old techniques. What is it he learned from Kuroda and Angier (more debate there for some of course)? And of course even if we grant that techniques are old that's not enough to make what he teaches *as a whole* koryu.

But again he never claims that it is.

That anonymous kids on-line who do no train and wouldn't know a katana from an entrenching tool idolize him isn't any big surprise. They could also be idolizing that Steeves fella cutting up milk bottles on the tube. Why give their ideas any more weight than they deserve?

And that his students are strong supporters of him also shouldn't be any big surprise either. I treat my sensei with great deference myself. Which is as it should be. And with James being out there constantly in the "public eye" doing demos, holding seminars, doing demos for documentaries, it is going to be inevitable that he is the center of discussion.

Sure, I wish the rhetoric by the more enthusiastic would tone down a bit myself. I think it can be quite a stretch to say some of the things some say.

But I don't see James claiming his style to be anything other than what it is. Sure he has strong opinions as to the value of what he does, but I'm sure everyone else reading this thread has strong opinions as to the value of what they do. James just tends to get out there more in public and is very visible. And very adamant about what he does. Which makes these discussions inevitable I suppose.


but I do get tired of all the kids on bugei's swordforum talking about how James is the "Last Samurai." I'm using quotes there because I've read more than one person state that over there.

Of course that is ridiculous, but it seems like a rather silly thing to get annoyed by. And who would be the focus of the annoyance, James or the enthusiastic kids?

[Charles Mahan]

Keith,

I think everyone understands that James is making no unreasonable claims about what he does. He's very honest about it. The one time I had a chance to see him do it(2003), he didn't even use the term Nami ryu. He called it James-jutsu.

That said, I think it's his supporters and representatives online that can rub people the wrong way. I don't think anyone would have thought twice about Walter's posts if they had been toned down just a tad, and if there hadn't been so many of them in so short a period of time.

[kdlarman]

No argument from me, Charles, it obviously does rub people the wrong way evidenced by this thread. I can't help it -- too many years working in psych areas...

I think Neil's post way back when addressed it quite well. The continuation of the discussion up to Chris' post about his frustration with "kiddies" on Bugei's forum canonizing James just struck me as fairly revealing as to what people really feel about it. And frankly I think it is rather petty considering the larger picture of random super soke hanshi out there doing totally made-up crap. A kind note to Walter suggesting he tone it down was probably in order. But ultimately it seems to me that would be between him and James. Me, I just kinda looked at the screen sideways when I saw his post. Then I shrugged. Then I went back to polishing a sword. Not a big deal.

The continued posts just made me think it must be a *really* slow day in the sword world. Especially when most everyone was already posting about how they already knew full well the distinctions being made.

edit: Of course I also contributed to the entire discussion myself. So mea culpa.

That said, well, I realize I should get back out to doing what I should be doing rather than wasting more bandwidth here.

[chrismoses]

The continued posts just made me think it must be a *really* slow day in the sword world. Especially when most everyone was already posting about how they already knew full well the distinctions being made.

Actually, that's not quite true. If you read Mike Clay's post again it's quite clear that he's under the assumption that Nami Ryu is koryu. In my mind, Walter then had an obligation to clarify the misunderstanding. Instead he promoted a seminar. Aden then mentions that he's been confused about what Nami Ryu actually was as well. And while James is very clear and forthright with what he's doing, and where he got it, given his high profile, I simply feel he has some obligation to monitor what his students (and therefore representatives) are saying. I know if someone was speaking about me in such devoted terms, I would feel compelled to bring the tone of the discussion down. That's part of the deal in my mind. Two examples from Neil's dojo. We had a student last year who posted some very authoritative sounding posts on what Aiki/aikijujutsu was and was not on a forum after training with us for a very short time. I immediately pointed out the person's short time with our group and tried to clarify some of his less correct statements. Neil spoke with him directly about further posting. A few months back another teacher under Neil was asked to remove the history page of his website, because it contained many of the historical errors that have been passed down about the origins of Aikido until a more modern and historically correct one was written. So I really don't feel it's enough to say, oh they're just kids/new/excited or make the assumption that everyone knows the truth anyway so why bother pointing it out. I made my comments partly because I believe there is a real difference between what James is teaching and what some other goshin-soke are doing, and that it does him a disservice to have people posting in such similar language to the other guys.

Finally, you seem to have taken some offence about my statements wrt kiddies on the Bugei forum. That's too bad. There are some good people over there, but there are a lot of wanna-be kiddies too unfortunately. It may have improved, I stopped browsing a while back when (much like AJ.com) I couldn't figure out what was allowed to be discussed.

[kdlarman]

Chris:

I don't really disagree. What I do think does go back to Neil's post -- the comment about putting one's nose into someone else's business. There were some good posts pointing out how the enthusiasm may be misplaced. As a guy who is intimately aware of dojo and organizational politics in my own domain, well, some things need to be handled internally. To speak to your examples you're talking about exactly how I think these things should be handled. Neil absolutely is the guy to address issues within his organization. And as an outsider I have no intention sit in public judgement of what he does. Or try to influence him prior to acting. Frankly it is none of my business how Neil chooses to deal with his responsibilities. No one outside of Neil's life, experience, and style knows everything that Neil knows about the things he is responsible for. I'm not going to question his decisions publicly. None of my business.

James deals with issues within his in his own way as well within his organization. If they do address it, cool. If they don't and you think they're doing themselves a disservice, well, that disservice is their's to perform. Obviously you may want to point out things that you think are misleading, incorrect, or whatever. But at some point you stand back and let them deal with it themselves. Or not deal with it. It is their problem.


I see a couple different issues here. One is whether the Namiryu site is clear enough in what they teach. It seems to me they have a *lot* of info up on their site. At first blush some may come away with the wrong idea. Fair enough. Read further and it is fairly clear what they're doing. Lord knows they have a lot more on their site than 90% of the sites out there.


The second issue is whether his students are representing things correctly. Issues have been pointed out that I wouldn't argue with. But at this point I think it is up to them (teacher and student) to address them or not to address them, or whatever.


And what I tend to object to with respect to comments about those posting on Bugei's forum is painting so many with such a broad brush in a flippant, toss-away manner. Yup, we get our share of interesting people. But I also end up spending way too much time getting flak from all sides. Complaints about something not being deleted, complaints about deleting too much, heck, even getting threatened with lawsuits. Too often I'm frustrated trying to walk a very fine but sometimes blurry line.

I don't, however, ever recall saying anything to you about anything you ever posted.

[Jim O'Connell]

Dear Mr. Moses,

"Aden then mentions that he's been confused about what Nami Ryu actually was as well. And while James is very clear and forthright with what he's doing, and where he got it, given his high profile, I simply feel he has some obligation to monitor what his students (and therefore representatives) are saying"

Thank for for sharing your feelings. I will go out on a limb and make the statement that "feelings are not facts". Perhaps Walter is entitled to his opinions, and while I have asked him (and other students) to be careful in the future use of adjectives and/or descriptive phrases; he made the statement and he is indeed being monitored, but not chastised. Not for you, not for your feelings.

Mr. Moses, You note over and over what is public and published record from James Williams writings and statements. So does Keith, so does Neil Yammamoto, so does Carl Long. These are all people I know, like, and respect. These are all people that James Williams knows, likes, and respects. It appears to me that they have monitored the comments and helped out in bringing perspective to them. So, in support of your feelings - we hear you. We hope that makes you feel better.

So, while James enjoys his camping vacation with his son and is not monitoring e-budo for the posibility that someone will discuss him or Nami ryu; I speak up - I am the shorter grey haired man in the video. If you still have the opinion that you own the right to arbiter Walter's or James Williams' behavior or written statements; please have whoever has an obligation to monitor you, contact either myself or James directly. Or, just in case you are responsible for your own monitoring, please consider yourself invited to visit us and discuss by phone, personal post, or in person. Sometime these things sort out much better in person. As you noted, we are public and also travel quite frequently. We have already noted your public comments, as you have noted ours; so enough said there.

Regards,
Jim O'Connell

[chrismoses]

Nice demo...
...but...
it seems a bit of a stretch to be referring to an art that's, what, 15 years old (?) as ancient. I realize James based his stuff on older arts, but it's goshin budo. Be proud of what your doing, but call it what it is, K?

(And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not dissing James, I'm not discrediting where he learned what he did, and I'm not saying James isn't a bada55. There's a very real precident for VERY modern arts talking up their ancient heritage and trust me man, you don't want to play in that sandbox.)

/rant

Just to remind folks where I started in this. I'm not saying anything different than Neil or Ren here and don't really appreciate being singled out like some kind of slanderer. I'm not sticking my nose into other people's business by responding to posts on a buliten board. You put stuff out in the open, you are calling for comment. I've met James on several occasions, and spent thousands of dollars with his company. Don't read more into my comments than are there.

Keith, thanks for your thoughtful responses, no you never said anything about my posts over on the Bugei forum, but I did have a number of posts deleted and get some warnings from other moderators. I don't really feel like discussing it too much further, it's been a few years since I frequented that board.