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Unskilled_Blade
14th August 2006, 22:08
It's no secret; I'm not a blacksmith, and have no plans to become one. But I frequently browse websites about this lost art. But what I am is an artist, and
every once and a while, I see a blade that is simply beautiful. And sometimes I wonder, what kind of metal is that? Most of the time it gives a bland description of saying it's "Hand crafted steel" or something genirec like that.

But I do actually have a question guys; what is the higest grade steel, and where does it come from? I've heard many different things, but I've heard that Indian steel is the best, because of the high carbon. (steel from India, not native americans, lol.) And by grade I mean 440, which most steel that I see is. Thanks Guys!

Eric Spinelli
15th August 2006, 01:54
You might try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_Hardness_Scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladesmith

It's only Wikipedia but it's a good start to understanding the basics. It should give you some keywords and topics to further research through academic journals or texts at *gasp* the library.

The other thing to consider/research is the various types and their associated functions of various blades and tools and the changes made accordingly in the manufacturing process. I recall reading an interesting article online on the pros and cons, as well as timeline, of various blade cross-sections in European swords, so the information is certainly out there.

Unskilled_Blade
15th August 2006, 02:00
You might try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_Hardness_Scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladesmith

It's only Wikipedia but it's a good start to understanding the basics. It should give you some keywords and topics to further research through academic journals or texts at *gasp* the library.

The other thing to consider/research is the various types and their associated functions of various blades and tools and the changes made accordingly in the manufacturing process. I recall reading an interesting article online on the pros and cons, as well as timeline, of various blade cross-sections in European swords, so the information is certainly out there.

I like the library; they always have the AC on:D Plus I just asked 2 simple questions that I wanted simple answers too. Jezz la-whezz man!

Unskilled_Blade
15th August 2006, 02:01
You might try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_Hardness_Scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bladesmith

It's only Wikipedia but it's a good start to understanding the basics. It should give you some keywords and topics to further research through academic journals or texts at *gasp* the library.

The other thing to consider/research is the various types and their associated functions of various blades and tools and the changes made accordingly in the manufacturing process. I recall reading an interesting article online on the pros and cons, as well as timeline, of various blade cross-sections in European swords, so the information is certainly out there.

I like the library; they always have the AC on:D Plus I just asked 2 simple questions that I wanted simple answers too. Jezz la-whezz man!

Charles Mahan
15th August 2006, 04:04
Actually you asked very simple questions, with very complicated answers.

kdlarman
15th August 2006, 04:55
Steel is a material of amazing complexity. Even the simplest carbon steels have remarkably complicated properties when manipulated by an experienced smith in both shaping and heat treating the steel. And the profound effects of the choices made by the smith during making and heat treating are complicated by another order of magnitude by subtle (and not so subtle) differences in steel types.

There is no best steel outside of context of a 1000 other variables. And when we talk about Japanese swords in particular it becomes profoundly complex due to the addition of issues of culture, tradition, methods of application of the weapon, time period historically, the nature of the targets expected, and on and on and on.

It is a simple question. But that doesn't mean the question makes any sense whatsoever.


It is like asking which tool in a 120-piece toolkit is most useful. Simple question, right? And the answer depends of if you have to hammer in a nail or screw in a screw or cut a piece of wood or tighten a bolt or strip wire or....

Ken-Hawaii
15th August 2006, 05:39
Arik, I have a list of 371 different types of steel, many of which could be incorporated into a sword blade. But as Charles, Eric, & Keith responded to you, which metal(s) you use are completely dependent on what you want the blade to do.

As you're an artist, you have probably seen blades made of Damascus steel, which is a combination of metals that aren't usually used in nihonto. As I collect Damascus steel knives, I can tell you that they come in absolutely gorgeous patterns (do a search on "Stek" on eBay). But none of these would be appropriate for use in an iaito or shinken. So your question in this forum isn't likely to get you an answer that fits your "artistic" question.

Hope this helps.

Karasu Maru
15th August 2006, 08:56
The highest-grade steel is Tamahagane as the material of the Japanese sword.
Tamahagane is produced only in Shimane Prefecture in Japan today.
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/steel.html
http://www.aa01.com/jculture/jcl-j/1000/1040.html

Tamahagane is used as nails for the construction of an old Shinto shrine and the temple in Japan.
When an old Shinto shrine and the temple are broken, a large amount of Tamahagane is disposed.
There is a blacksmith that makes the sword from disposed nails.
Disposed nails is better quality than today's manufactured Tamahagane.

chrismoses
15th August 2006, 17:36
The highest-grade steel is Tamahagane as the material of the Japanese sword.
Tamahagane is produced only in Shimane Prefecture in Japan today.
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/steel.html
http://www.aa01.com/jculture/jcl-j/1000/1040.html

Tamahagane is used as nails for the construction of an old Shinto shrine and the temple in Japan.
When an old Shinto shrine and the temple are broken, a large amount of Tamahagane is disposed.
There is a blacksmith that makes the sword from disposed nails.
Disposed nails is better quality than today's manufactured Tamahagane.

Sorry to disagree, but modern tool steel is quite a bit *better* than tamahagane for swords. Tamahagane is mandated for use by the Japanese government, but isn't actually terribly good. The genious of Japanese smiths is that they were able to make good steel from a relatively bad source.

You might check out the smithing forums on swordforum.com for more info.

pgsmith
15th August 2006, 17:55
There is an interesting thread in the archives which has a lot of very good information from some very knowledgeable folks on the subject of swords and steel ...http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2114

Charles Mahan
15th August 2006, 18:23
Sorry to disagree, but modern tool steel is quite a bit *better* than tamahagane for swords.

Unless you're looking to make something using very traditional materials. Back to that, simple question, very complicated answer bit.

Unskilled_Blade
15th August 2006, 21:07
What about sharpening the blade? Right now I use a stone sharpener (I think; its a dark black color that smells nice:D) and I travel the full length of it, one way. Should I do it on both sides of it? Right now I do that, and it's pretty sharp. (no reason really; not one of those hicks that get them sharp and then chop watermelons them them, lol.) I do it to... and it sounds a little weird, but to get "close" to it. Do you know what I mean? Nice links too, guys. Those really helped, lol!

Charles Mahan
15th August 2006, 22:59
Traditionally, katana are not really sharpened so much as they are polished. There is a little information in this thread and links to more info http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34144

kdlarman
16th August 2006, 01:18
Yah, what Charles said about steels.

Tamahagane is great. Spent some time today studying a marvelous traditionally made blade -- nioi deki, deep nioi-guchi, beautifully polished utsuri just dripping from the shinogi... Sigh...

Of course I was also working on a Howard Clark L6 bainite sword that is worth about, oh, 1/6th as much. But could probably cut the nihonto up into small pieces...

Which is better? It just depends... Performance? The L6. Great blade. Aesthetics? The nihonto. Traditional adherence? The nihonto. As a training tool? The L6 easily.

And unless your sword is dull it generally doesn't need to be sharpened. Most hand held sharpening people do to their own swords do more damage in the long run than good. The edge is the entire blade from the shinogi down -- there is no secondary bevel.

Unskilled_Blade
16th August 2006, 02:51
*Sigh* Theres nothing like holding a PERFECTLY balanced, mirror polished beautiful blade, is there?:o

kdlarman
16th August 2006, 02:54
Mirror polished?

Nope.

Brian Owens
16th August 2006, 05:35
...mirror polished beautiful blade...
I don't know about others, but I don't find a "mirror polished" nihonto to be beautiful. It would remind me too much of the stainless-steel garbage that's out there.

Burnishing the mune and the shinogiji to a mirror shine is fine, but the hamon and other important characteristics wouldn't be visible if the entire blade were "mirrored," would they?

kdlarman
16th August 2006, 17:04
I don't know about others, but I don't find a "mirror polished" nihonto to be beautiful. It would remind me too much of the stainless-steel garbage that's out there.

Burnishing the mune and the shinogiji to a mirror shine is fine, but the hamon and other important characteristics wouldn't be visible if the entire blade were "mirrored," would they?

They might be slightly visible, but it would be barely if at all.

I saw one years ago where a well meaning vet had his souvenir from WWII chrome plated to get it "shiny" again. Shinto Echizen blade if memory serves.

chrismoses
16th August 2006, 17:13
They might be slightly visible, but it would be barely if at all.

I saw one years ago where a well meaning vet had his souvenir from WWII chrome plated to get it "shiny" again. Shinto Echizen blade if memory serves.

Too funny, must have watched too many of those miserable Harley chop shop shows.. "If it ain't rubber, CHROME IT!" ;)

Ron Tisdale
16th August 2006, 18:46
Funny??? My heart sank as I read that... :(

Best,
Ron

kdlarman
16th August 2006, 18:59
Well, there was that early shinto era wakizashi that the owner had used to trim his plants in his front yard with for over 40 years. Looked like a ginzu knife. The point was gone (as in totally shattered off well before the original kissaki placement), multiple hako-bori (deep edge chips) going up into the ji itself, bends, etc. Rust deeply pitting the entire length. And a new edge cut into it multiple times probably with his bench grinder. It was totally ruined.

From what I could tell working a small area on it the blade looked like Hizen worksmanship. He wanted to know if it was worth anything. I mentioned that it might have been worthy of preservation 40 years ago but for now, no, at best it could be used to stake his tomato plant... The nakago was so rusted if it was ever signed that stuff was long lost to oxides...

Frankly the well meaning folk out there do vastly more damage than they realize. I can't count how many blades I've seen that have been "cleaned" with abrasives, polishes, etc. Often much of the "life" of the blade has been destroyed by these things. And how many guys use sharpeners, grinders, etc. to "fix up" these things. And one guy used his bench grinder to clean up the "dark black gunk" on the nakago (what we call patina and prize because it helps us identify a sword) and also to get rid of those funny marks (the smith's signature).

Or the guy who drilled through the saya and through the blade so he could use two nails to display the blade on his wall without worrying about it being easily stolen...

Ron Tisdale
16th August 2006, 19:02
Oh my god...

Keith, I don't envy you...

B,
R (putting up with idiocy...you must be a saint)

kdlarman
16th August 2006, 19:17
Obviously it bugs me, but I must say that over the last bunch of years I've mellowed a lot about it. Most of these guys simply didn't know what they had when they came back with swords. It is a shame but I can't really get too upset with them. I do wish the public in general was better educated, but we are ultimately talking about a fairly obscure area of art and history in these cases. In some ways things are much better today as many of the "war souvenir" swords have found their ways out of attics and basements. Many have suffered greatly over the years but quite a few have been found and wonderfully restored. It is great to find one in reasonably good condition and get it restored properly. At the last token kai (Chicago I think) Bob Benson of the NBTHK-American Branch put on a display of great swords found at sword and gun shows. Most were found in rather ratty condition and put up for sale on tables. Someone noticed something, the blades were bought, the blades restored, and in many cases the blades went back to Japan for papers and did very well. At least some find their way back to the tender loving care they deserve as historic and artistic artifacts.

Unskilled_Blade
16th August 2006, 20:54
I spent alot of time polishing my blade, and then it's wrong?! Is there another way; I really just like it to be shiney, I'm like a small bird when it comes to those things...

DDATFUS
16th August 2006, 20:58
well.... it sort of depends on what type of steel you have in your blade. If your sword is 440 stainless, then by all means polish it to a nice, mirror shine. No reason not to.

Ron Tisdale
16th August 2006, 21:24
uh, yeah, as long as you don't try to cut anything with it...

;)

Brian Pettett
16th August 2006, 21:25
I spent alot of time polishing my blade, and then it's wrong?! Is there another way; I really just like it to be shiney, I'm like a small bird when it comes to those things...

If you have to consistently polish your blade to keep it shiny, you need to take better care of maintaining it. There are traditional methods of cleaning a Japanese-style blade (search this site, or Google), and proper oiling will prevent oxidation from dulling the surface of the steel.

Unskilled_Blade
16th August 2006, 21:53
To DDATFUS: yes, it is 440 steel, so I will, thanks!

To Ron Tisdale: Never cut ANYTHING with my prize sword, lol.

To Brian Pettett: I have several tradional cleaning sets, but I really like cleaning/polishing them. And it's rarely out of it's saya in between those times.

Maro
16th August 2006, 23:40
Obviously it bugs me, but I must say that over the last bunch of years I've mellowed a lot about it. Most of these guys simply didn't know what they had when they came back with swords. It is a shame but I can't really get too upset with them. I do wish the public in general was better educated, but we are ultimately talking about a fairly obscure area of art and history in these cases. In some ways things are much better today as many of the "war souvenir" swords have found their ways out of attics and basements. Many have suffered greatly over the years but quite a few have been found and wonderfully restored. It is great to find one in reasonably good condition and get it restored properly. At the last token kai (Chicago I think) Bob Benson of the NBTHK-American Branch put on a display of great swords found at sword and gun shows. Most were found in rather ratty condition and put up for sale on tables. Someone noticed something, the blades were bought, the blades restored, and in many cases the blades went back to Japan for papers and did very well. At least some find their way back to the tender loving care they deserve as historic and artistic artifacts.

This is very true. Recently, we were treated to a visit from John Spicer of the Australian JSS. He has an amazing collection of Nihonto. He was kind enought to bring a selection for us to see.

He had lots of similar stories to the above - he'd picked up plenty of excellent blades from Garage Sales etc for A$20. Some had the "Home Grown" polish with an angle grinder. Luckily, most were salvageable.

The only bad thing now is that most of the bargains to be had here are long gone. No bargains for us.

Unskilled_Blade
17th August 2006, 04:39
This is very true. Recently, we were treated to a visit from John Spicer of the Australian JSS. He has an amazing collection of Nihonto. He was kind enought to bring a selection for us to see.

He had lots of similar stories to the above - he'd picked up plenty of excellent blades from Garage Sales etc for A$20. Some had the "Home Grown" polish with an angle grinder. Luckily, most were salvageable.

The only bad thing now is that most of the bargains to be had here are long gone. No bargains for us.
No bargians? Maybe at the Thrift Store......:D

chrismoses
17th August 2006, 15:42
I spent alot of time polishing my blade, and then it's wrong?! Is there another way; I really just like it to be shiney, I'm like a small bird when it comes to those things...

What he was saying, is that if it's 440, then do whatever you want because it's never going to look right and isn't remotely functional. Be careful with those things, they are decorations, nothing more.

kdlarman
17th August 2006, 16:20
Generally stainless blades are of incorrect shape, balance and construction to be usable. They have little more than a passing resemblance to the real thing. The geometry of these blades are usually completely wrong as they're made by stamping or cutting out blanks of steel. As such they lack virtually every subtle detail in shape that makes a Japanese sword "behave" the way they do. And the steel will not be heat treated to show any of the features of a Japanese sword that a good polish will bring out simply because the steel is not ammenable to those things in the first place.

Usually the stainless blades have improperly constructed handles, improperly shaped nakago, and incorrectly done tsukamaki. As such the handles in addition to the blades are prone to catastrophic failure. Which means blade separating or shattering and flying across the room or back at the user. This is not a good thing -- razor sharp shards of steel kill and maim. If the tsuka comes apart you're not only looking at the blade flying but possible shredding your hands as the pieces break.

So... Polish it to a mirror, etch on a fake hamon, sharpen it with a knife sharpener, that's all not going to matter much in the long run.

If it were a real Japanese sword you put all that stuff away and learn something about blade care and handling. Because all those other things will ruin a Japanese sword.

The NBTHK-AB has a very good page on sword care and handling on their articles page. Nothing about cuttin' stuff up, just how to care for a blade.

http://nbthk-ab.org

DDATFUS
18th August 2006, 04:57
Even the way the cutting edge is shaped is totally different. wallhangers in no way mimic the shape or the function of real nihonto.

Arik, you mention being an artist. Have you ever seen Van Gogh's Starry Night in person? The work is incredibly 3-dimensional, with thick globs of paint coming right off of the paper. No color-printer copy of Starry Night can come close to capturing the original, just because the printer is not capable of creating the real effect of thick swirls of oil on canvas.

Think of a real nihonto as a work of art, just like an original oil painting. That 440 you have? Think of it as being like a print of a famous work of art, something that someone made on their home color printer.

When one of Van Gogh's paintings has to be restored, highly trained professionals delicately begin the work, carefully studying the painting in close collaboration with art experts. Could you imagine a team of professional artists and art historians working to correct the smudges on someone's $20 print of the same painting?

That's why polishing a real nihonto is a delicate job that has to be done very carefully, and why you can polish your 440 all day long without doing any harm-- or any real good. That's all I meant when I said that if you have a 440 you can polish it to your heart's content. There's nothing to damage.

Anvilfire
18th August 2006, 15:23
It's no secret; I'm not a blacksmith, and have no plans to become one. But I frequently browse websites about this lost art. But what I am is an artist, and
every once and a while, I see a blade that is simply beautiful. And sometimes I wonder, what kind of metal is that? Most of the time it gives a bland description of saying it's "Hand crafted steel" or something genirec like that.

But I do actually have a question guys; what is the higest grade steel, and where does it come from? I've heard many different things, but I've heard that Indian steel is the best, because of the high carbon. (steel from India, not native americans, lol.) And by grade I mean 440, which most steel that I see is. Thanks Guys!

There are many good steels out there today and the bad rep that stainless had is unfounded now. But for a sword I would want a 10xx series carbon or 5160, O1,W1 and W2 tool steels are good choices. Sharpness and toughness you also can obtain a true hamon line.

chrismoses
18th August 2006, 15:27
There are many good steels out there today and the bad rep that stainless had is unfounded now. But for a sword I would want a 10xx series carbon or 5160, O1,W1 and W2 tool steels are good choices. Sharpness and toughness you also can obtain a true hamon line.

Stainless is great steel, but not for swords. Check your facts and do some research, this has been done to death.

Ron Tisdale
18th August 2006, 16:23
And when you report back after what Chris suggested, please sign your posts...it is a rule here that we all follow.

Best,
Ron

Anvilfire
19th August 2006, 19:23
And when you report back after what Chris suggested, please sign your posts...it is a rule here that we all follow.

Best,
Ron

Maybe a moderator can help with the signature as I have filled in the blanks?
As for research I've done my share, seems no one looked at my profile if you did you would have seen I'm a bladesmith.
I did not endorse stainless for swords all together as most stainless does not have the notch toughness as a forged carbon or toolsteel and can crack on impact.
Stainless steel was given a bad name early but has come a long way from what it was.
Elward Gann

Brian Owens
19th August 2006, 22:38
Maybe a moderator can help with the signature as I have filled in the blanks?
I'm a moderator but not an administrator, so I don't have the capability to modify anyone's profile; but if you click on the "User CP" button near the top left of your screen (under the E-Budo logo), then click on "Edit Options" you can scroll down and make sure that "Show Signatures" is checked in the "Diplay Options" box.

Also, I just realized that when you go to make a new post or reply to an existing one, the "Additional Options" box will show below your text entry window, and you can check the "Show Signatures" box there, too. (That may only affect the current post, though, and not apply globally.)


...As for research I've done my share, seems no one looked at my profile if you did you would have seen I'm a bladesmith.
I did not endorse stainless for swords all together as most stainless does not have the notch toughness as a forged carbon or toolsteel and can crack on impact.
I assumed by your user name that you were a metal worker of some sort; and I did catch your drift when you said:

...There are many good steels out there today and the bad rep that stainless had is unfounded now. But for a sword I would want a 10xx series carbon or 5160, O1,W1 and W2 tool steels are good choices. Sharpness and toughness you also can obtain a true hamon line.
It seems some folks just didn't read your post carefully enough.

Speaking of stainless cracking, have you seen the video that floats around the Web where Sean Lefflar, the TV knife and sword salesman, almost commits inadvertant seppuku when he whacks a 400c stainless piece of junk on a table and it shatters? Priceless!

(He recovered, and now sells coins on TV. Better job for him, I think. I once cautioned him about his poor sword-handling skills, and he replied that he knew how to handle swords. Yeah, right!)

chrismoses
19th August 2006, 22:45
It seems some folks just didn't read your post carefully enough.


I'm assuming you mean me? No I quite understood what was written. Stainless has no place in sword length blades, and since this is a forum about kenjutsu rather than general bladesmithing, it is quite safe to say that stainless has the rep it deserves WRT swords. I have no problem with modern tool and spring steels that sometimes have some 'stainless' properties, but these steels are generally not called 'stainless'. Any 'samurai' sword that is promoted as being made with stainless steel is junk, end of story.

Anvilfire
19th August 2006, 23:33
I'm a moderator but not an administrator, so I don't have the capability to modify anyone's profile; but if you click on the "User CP" button near the top left of your screen (under the E-Budo logo), then click on "Edit Options" you can scroll down and make sure that "Show Signatures" is checked in the "Diplay Options" box.

Also, I just realized that when you go to make a new post or reply to an existing one, the "Additional Options" box will show below your text entry window, and you can check the "Show Signatures" box there, too. (That may only affect the current post, though, and not apply globally.)


I assumed by your user name that you were a metal worker of some sort; and I did catch your drift when you said:

It seems some folks just didn't read your post carefully enough.

Speaking of stainless cracking, have you seen the video that floats around the Web where Sean Lefflar, the TV knife and sword salesman, almost commits inadvertant seppuku when he whacks a 400c stainless piece of junk on a table and it shatters? Priceless!

(He recovered, and now sells coins on TV. Better job for him, I think. I once cautioned him about his poor sword-handling skills, and he replied that he knew how to handle swords. Yeah, right!)

Glad we are clear now. :) The sword in the video was junk as most are.
Now for specs Crucible as good stuff on their site as well as Bob Engnath site.

Brian Owens
19th August 2006, 23:42
...Any 'samurai' sword that is promoted as being made with stainless steel is junk, end of story.
I'll just refer back to Dan Harden's post from Sept. 26th, 2000:

...I think the comments are a bit simplistic. In and of themselves "Stainless steels" are a far more diverse and complex group than to make simple comparisons to carbon steels. The various methods used for hardening/tempering are as diverse as the steels themselves.

When discussing stainless steels, many people refer to the old types usually used by factories in cheap cutlery; 440A,b,and C being the most common. There are a wealth of stainless steels out now, with excellent performance capabilities that smiths are very well aware of, and the public knows little about. While I agree that the use of them in swords can be exceedingly difficult,it is not impposible.

...There are several "powder metallurgy" stainless steels offered these days that will outperform most any other steel offered.

...I could offer you a plain carbon steel blade, uniformly tempered in the 60C range and ground with a hollow ground edge with an equal "back" thickness from the riccaso to just below the point. Then place it up against an ATS34 stainless steel blade distally tapered with a canard edge with a rockwell of 58 on the edge and 45 on the back.

Guess which one will win?

...many others from different “shops” >DO< break. They are hardened through and through. Those blades can kill you when they break. Well, then again so will a poorly constructed plain carbon steel blade.

I agree that -- in general -- stainless steel is a poor choice for swords, but when someone like Mr. Harden or Mr. Gann points out that not all stainless is equal, and that SOME stainless steels can be used safely, it is a mistake to make blanket judgements on their expertise.

chrismoses
20th August 2006, 18:56
I'll just refer back to Dan Harden's post from Sept. 26th, 2000:


I agree that -- in general -- stainless steel is a poor choice for swords, but when someone like Mr. Harden or Mr. Gann points out that not all stainless is equal, and that SOME stainless steels can be used safely, it is a mistake to make blanket judgements on their expertise.

So *theoretically* someone might be making a sword out of a newer stainless steel thought Dan points out, "the use of them in swords can be exceedingly difficult,it is not impposible."

I would guess that someone using ATS-34/154-CM would not describe the fruits of their labor as a "stainless steel samurai sword." From what I've read, these steels are still better suited (or perhaps I should say much easier to work) in knife lengths, and carbon steel (certainly including many of the modern tool steels) are much better choices for sword length blades. So yes, I think it is very easy to use the term 'stainless steel' as a warning flag for low quality when speaking about katana.

Brian Owens
20th August 2006, 21:49
...So yes, I think it is very easy to use the term 'stainless steel' as a warning flag for low quality when speaking about katana.
I agree completely.

Unless the swordsmith were someone of great repute, and even then if he she didn't take great pains to explain how their particular blade was made, I wouldn't touch a stainless steel sword with a ten-foot yari.

Unskilled_Blade
20th August 2006, 22:12
Speaking of stainless cracking, have you seen the video that floats around the Web where Sean Lefflar, the TV knife and sword salesman, almost commits inadvertant seppuku when he whacks a 400c stainless piece of junk on a table and it shatters? Priceless!

(He recovered, and now sells coins on TV. Better job for him, I think. I once cautioned him about his poor sword-handling skills, and he replied that he knew how to handle swords. Yeah, right!)

I've seen that clip several times and crack-up still, LOL. Has anyone heard of Masahiro katanas? This is my PRIZE sword, and rarely it sees the light of day. (altough I take the time about once a month and oil it and clean it with rice paper) I've never attempted to cut anything with it and/or do anything stupid with it. Has anyone heard of Masahiro swords, and if so, are they good? :D

Anvilfire
20th August 2006, 23:20
I've seen that clip several times and crack-up still, LOL. Has anyone heard of Masahiro katanas? This is my PRIZE sword, and rarely it sees the light of day. (altough I take the time about once a month and oil it and clean it with rice paper) I've never attempted to cut anything with it and/or do anything stupid with it. Has anyone heard of Masahiro swords, and if so, are they good? :D

I have. Supposed to be 1095 and has a blood groove. $109 U.S.

Unskilled_Blade
20th August 2006, 23:31
I have. Supposed to be 1095 and has a blood groove. $109 U.S.
I got mine for $90, and yes, it does have a giant blood groove. I knew it was a good deal!! Only reason I bought it really was the BEAUTIFUL tsuba with the engraving of a cherry blossem on it. It's perdy...:D So, is it a good quality sword?

Brian Owens
21st August 2006, 09:49
...$90 ...So, is it a good quality sword?
Compared to what?

My zinc/aluminum-bladed iaito cost more than $600.00. It's well made, with a very tight-fitting habaki, tsuka, and tsukaito; a secure kurigata; and a nice, long sageo. But there are some flaws in the plating on the blade, and the bohi (groove) is a little uneven in depth. And this is an iaito or mogito; it's not meant to cut anything but air and ego.

A new, Chinese-made, shinken from SDK supplies will run about $640.00.Good for the Iai practitioner wanting to move up from a mogito, but limited sizes and no customization.
SDK Iai Shinken (http://www.sdksupplies.com/cat_chinshin.htm) (Not recommended for cutting.)

A newly made sword from Swordstore.com's "Iaito that cut" line will run around $1200 to $2000. (Semi-cutsom, and capable of cutting.)
SwordStore Steel Iaito (http://www.swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/0493.7.5774986475963507362/02nav/0056-main.html)

A newly made shinken for Japan, from a smith like Fujiwara Kanefusa XXIV, could easily set you back $30,000.00 or more.
[URL=http://www.lostdays.org/shinsakuto/articles.asp?id=33[/URL]

As far as your question, of "is it a good quality sword" -- the best way to know is to start looking at as many swords as you can in museums, in the hands of your seniors and teachers, and sword-collectors' meetings, etc. Then you'll have a basis of comparison.

To start, check these points:

Can you wiggle the tsuba with you fingers?
Can you move the strands of the tsukaito easily?
If you draw it and give it gentle shakes, twists, and snaps do you hear any rattles?

That is a good starting point in identifying quality. (The answers to the above should be "no.")

HTH.

chrismoses
21st August 2006, 16:11
To start, check these points:

Can you wiggle the tsuba with you fingers?
Can you move the strands of the tsukaito easily?
If you draw it and give it gentle shakes, twists, and snaps do you hear any rattles?

That is a good starting point in identifying quality. (The answers to the above should be "no.")

HTH.

(adding...)
Does it have "440" stamped anywhere on it? (again, the answer should be no)

Unskilled_Blade
21st August 2006, 20:34
My answer to the above is "no" for all of them. The tsuba is fit very tight with no movement, and I can clearly hear the noise of my finger quickly sliding off of it, making a sharp, but oddly pleasant "teey-ing" noise. The tsukaito is obdurate to any amount of movement that I apply. There are no noises made when I swing it, except for the air moving. (no noise with the saya on either.) No stamps either, lol. Some minor imperfections in the blade itself, as the hamon seems to change in style after the first 14 inches or so.

100110
22nd August 2006, 00:12
I'm afraid that isn't a blood groove. It's entirely forgivable that the myth of the "blood groove" is so widespread, given the marketing strategies employed by vendors. We've all been there. But there's no such thing.

Anvilfire
22nd August 2006, 01:48
I'm afraid that isn't a blood groove. It's entirely forgivable that the myth of the "blood groove" is so widespread, given the marketing strategies employed by vendors. We've all been there. But there's no such thing.

Eer huh ? What is it? :)

chrismoses
22nd August 2006, 02:58
Eer huh ? What is it? :)

You know it goes, "Wooooo!"

(kudos for anyone who gets that reference...)

Brian Owens
22nd August 2006, 06:57
Eer huh ? What is it? :)
It's called hi or bohi in Japanese, and its purpose is to allow for a lighter blade without weakening it substantially, as a blade that was thinner in its entire cross-section would be. European swords use similar grooves for the same purpose, and the English term for those grooves is Fuller.

Removing metal only from the shinogiji allows for a thicker cross-section for a given weight, and in addition to allowing for a stiffer blade, it also allows for better shaping of the edge profile (called niku).

Some people worry that a bohi may have been added only to cover flaws, but since the position of the hi is relatively fixed that is not as likely to be the case as with decorative carvings, which often do, unfortunately, exist to cover flaws (kizu).

Good swords can be found both with and without bohi, but Iaido practitioners in particular tend to favor bohi because the sound a blade with bohi makes can be used by the experienced to gauge their form; a helpful tool when one isn't getting feedback from cutting targets.

HTH.

Fred27
22nd August 2006, 07:09
Unless you are cutting real objects as in tameshigiri. Then the bohi, (as I heard), is mostly in the way of a good cut. Haven't tried it though.

Brian Owens
22nd August 2006, 07:28
... the bohi, (as I heard), is mostly in the way of a good cut. Haven't tried it though.
If the blade has a good cross-sectional profile then that shouldn't be the case. If you consider the profile to be a sort of diamond shape, with the ha and the mune being the bottom and top "points" and the left and right shinogi being the side points, then the section where the bohi lives -- the shinogiji -- would actually be recessed from the shinogi and so wouldn't be in solid contact with the target.

That's is my understanding, anyway.

Fred27
22nd August 2006, 07:45
If the blade has a good cross-sectional profile then that shouldn't be the case. If you consider the profile to be a sort of diamond shape, with the ha and the mune being the bottom and top "points" and the left and right shinogi being the side points, then the section where the bohi lives -- the shinogiji -- would actually be recessed from the shinogi and so wouldn't be in solid contact with the target.

That's is my understanding, anyway.

Yeh yer prolly right.

Initiate
29th August 2006, 05:57
Impurities make the finest hard iron. But how to place the impurities? With a crappy source of ore the ancient swordcrafters made excellence. They mystify us now. No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.

I like mysteries better than Ford Pintoes

Respectfully Rick Bradford

kdlarman
29th August 2006, 15:22
Damascus is a term popularly used interchangeably (unfortunately) for two different types of steel. Wootz damascus is the stuff from the middle east with famous patterns and renouned for their cutting ability. It was not a folded steel. Folded damascus is a more "general" phrase and really refers to a patterned steel created by folding steel billets into themselves. It is called "damascus" as a misnomer because they sort of look like "true" damascus (wootz) although to the experienced eye they are like night and day different. Many who deal with these things bristle at the term damascus being used at all for anything but wootz.

Japanese steel was smelted in a tatara from satetsu (iron sand) to create tamahagane. The tamahagane is broken up, sorted, stacked, then welded into billets. The patterns seen in the final product was a result of the forge welding technique that was necessary to adjust carbon levels but also to "homogonize" the steel and to knock out some of the junk. Anyway, the point being that the patterning in the steel was a result of forging and folding and is not wootz damascus.

Wootz shows patterning as well but it is a result of microsegregation of trace alloys in the steel during heat treatment. It is a very different type of steel and requires special handling for forging and heat treatment to "work" correctly. It is more about being a matrix of very hard carbides evenly spaced inside a softer "base" of very soft pearlite with a relatively high carbon level.

It is actually fairly well understood today due to the work of a number of people, Pendray and Verhoeven being the most prominent. You might want to read this article.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

But again, wootz damascus is a very different animal than the steel used for Japanese swords. So-called "folded damascus" is just a general term and could refer to most anything from Japanese swords to Viking swords. It simply means they were folded steel.

But yes, there are lots of interesting steels the Japanese made over years. The coloration, tone, feel, look, etc. of Japanese steels varied considerably over time and is something those sensitive to it use to help identify when a blade was made and by whom. As to the performance of those things, well, mostly what we have today is anecdotal evidence of sword performance. And while some were renouned as excellent cutters and very high performance pieces, well, I've seen things done with well made modern swords that would probably make a swordsmith of old go into seizures.

And as a interesting trivia point consider the 1086 blades from Howard Clark. He had this steel made for him including specifying trace elements for the steel. I've polished and mounted a lot of his swords. They are *very* difficult on the stones, very difficult to shape, very difficult to polish, and very, very tough. They hold an edge like you wouldn't believe. They make old steel feel like butter on the stones. In part this seems to be due to his blades having rather profuse carbide formation in the steel. Remember that wootz had the carbides formed in a matrix of pearlite (which is soft steel). The vanadium carbide formation in Howard's 1086 blades is in a matrix of martensite (hardened steel) on the edge. Which makes for a blade edge that is both extremely hard (unlike wootz) *and* with aggressive "bitey" microscopic carbide "teeth" to help with cutting. They skate on most polishing stones rather than get bit. I think it is not any surprise that Howard Clark has known Verhoeven (the researcher on wootz) quite well for quite a long time...

Initiate
30th August 2006, 06:21
No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.
the art is lost. It is approximated now. Saladin cut the veil which was was held aloft by air

With respect

Rick Bradford

kdlarman
30th August 2006, 15:10
No modern swordcrafter can make true damacus steel.
the art is lost. It is approximated now. Saladin cut the veil which was was held aloft by air

With respect

Rick Bradford
Right-e-o, nevermind...

Initiate
31st August 2006, 02:15
well, I suppose I should reply; there are published data on damascus steel, its properties. The word about Saladin was a historic factoid. You clearly know much about metal, and I have worked in the shop-aircraft parts-but never worked in the smelting side, but I am expecienced with lots of heat treating. A great many mishaps occurs there. What the metullical literaure indicates is that there are multiple attemps at replication of the process that produces the pretty damasc pattern, though none-by my reading, perhaps you have seen more recent studies- have actually found to replicate the properties of this historic metal.

right-e-o is cool with me, You fellows know more about steel than 90% of the machinists I know

Make that 99%

With respect, Rick Bradford

kdlarman
31st August 2006, 02:34
Did you look at the link I posted?

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

Similar results have been obtained elsewhere too, by the way. Ric Furrer has actually made a few knives with the stuff since it was "rediscovered". And stories about wootz contain just as much mythology and BS as stories about Japanese swords cleaving gun barrels.

And different blade configurations from various cultures basically impose different requirements on steels. There is no one "best" steel, just the best steel *given* the application. And within the world of swords (meaning beyond just Japanese swords) there is a whole lot of variety.

Of course none of these even begins to address the most basic question of what criterion you consider relevant to determine what best is in the first place.

Basically it is a meaningless question without a specific context to discuss. So simplistic answers naming *any* steel are basically just hot air escaping...

Initiate
31st August 2006, 02:46
No, is missed your reference link. Thanks. Man, I love metal. Why is that? Is it some genetic thing? You guys swing it, I am very very new here and my nephew says I need to swing bokken to ready my hands and arms for mat cutting. Not to mention sparring. I left fighting a long time ago. Even the ritual fight of the student. Lots of boxing is not any prep for what you guys (and gals I expect) do.


Hey can you recommend a book or two about all the Japanese references I see here? I primer on Japanese sword terms?

Thanks

With respect, Rick Bradford

100110
31st August 2006, 12:33
Here's one: http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/
That website also lists some commonly available books. If you search the forum you may find some more recommendations for books on Japanese swords.

gendzwil
31st August 2006, 15:52
Richard Stein's website (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm) is one of the most quoted net references. In book form, you might enjoy "Craft of the Japanese Sword" by Yoshihara and Kapp, although perhaps it's not technical enough for you. Search for Keith's posts here and on swordforum, he's a wealth of information. Not sure what dojo you are joining but if it's kendo or iaido, there's a lot of activity in the forums on kendo-world.com.

Initiate
9th September 2006, 05:15
Thank you for the references, I have much to learn

Rick Bradford