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View Full Version : Check this add from Gumtree.com London



Lee Mc'pherson
15th August 2006, 15:26
Train to become a Professional Martial Artist!
Reply to: info@blackbeltleader.co.uk Master Diston 07899 886645
Date: Monday 14th August

We are looking for determined people to train to become professional martial arts instructors.

The course lasts for 2 years and classes are in the evenings and weekends. Not only will you become a Black Belt in 2 years, but you will also learn how to market a martial arts business, how to sell martial arts programmes and of course how to teach them. The course also covers financial aspects of becoming self employed and running your own business.

This course is designed to be taken alongside your regular career and prepares you for the day you decide to leave that desk job and do something valuable and positive with your life; making a difference to others and yourself.

The course fees includes all tuition, all graduation fees and all equipment that you will need.

We are a Registered Learning Provider with the Learning and Skills Council, which means that you could be eligible for a Career Development Loan to assist you with your fees.

-------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE
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We are only looking for people with dedication and commitment. If you are not within 5 easy miles of NW7 or HA8 postcodes, this is not the course for you. If you are an existing Black Belt in another style, we can train you too without compromising your existing martial arts system or principles.

Course costs are usually £10,000 for 2 years, but we have an incredible deal on at the moment as we are keen to get more instructors out there, changing lives in our communities.
If you are serious about making a living running your own martial arts business drop me a line. No time wasters please.
select a photo

Dan Keding
15th August 2006, 16:23
Sounds like "The Way of the Fast Talking Marketer" rather than warrior.

Do you have to have a set of golden arches outside your dojo after you graduate? Or perhaps a Nike swoosh embroidered on every belt?

Two years? Three years for a "master"?

Dan

MikeWilliams
15th August 2006, 16:23
£10 grand? :eek:

I happen to know that you can become a certified yoga teacher or personal trainer for a hell of a lot less than that, and you are far more likely to make a living doing those than teaching McKarate.

Is this the GKR boys again?

SLeclair
15th August 2006, 16:49
£10 grand? :eek:

I happen to know that you can become a certified yoga teacher or personal trainer for a hell of a lot less than that, and you are far more likely to make a living doing those than teaching McKarate.

Is this the GKR boys again?

I saw a similar program that was only $500 a month, for 24 months.

Of course, there is only one class every other month, so it's really $1000 per class, 12 times.

See, I think it'd be much more profitable to just give other people courses on how to market martial arts instead of just trying to market them myself (those who can't do, eh). Or even better, I think I'll put together a program teaching people how to teach other people how to market martial arts. I'm sure I'll get many clients.

---
Sebastien L.

Texasmic
15th August 2006, 16:52
Instead of Karate Do, or Amway we have

AmDo! :)

larsen_huw
15th August 2006, 22:25
... Is this the GKR boys again?


Doubt this is GKR - unless it's something I missed.

They always used to get them in for free and get them making money for the club ASAP, rather than getting the trainee instructors to dip into their own pockets, which would probably cut down the number of willing recruits.

There was also no mention of time-related goals (i.e. BB in 2 years) ...

Sounds more like a pyramid scheme ... "you pay me ten grand and i will teach you how to go out there and get other people to pay you ten grand"

Hughes
16th August 2006, 10:02
their website (http://www.blackbeltleader.co.uk/)

From the 2 years programm page:


The 'traditional' method of creating Instructors was simply to pick a Black Belt and tell them to 'get on with it'. This is dangerous - not all Black Belts have the ability to share their experience in a safe and constructive manner, and not all Black Belts want to!

Is it not exactly what a traditionnal black belt is meant to be and do?...

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 10:37
http://www.blackbeltleader.co.uk/diston.htm

The bloke who teaches is a 'Master' with a 3rd Degree in Free style Karate :rolleyes:

I've sent him an email to see if he will come on and disguss his idea of what he thinks Martial Arts is about...god help us all.

SLeclair
16th August 2006, 11:17
Is it not exactly what a traditionnal black belt is meant to be and do?...

I get the impression they feel a black belt is an inevitability, and that you have to train those that just aren't good enough.

Of course, you could go the way of integrity and actually not promote those that don't have the ability necessary for the new rank, but then, where would you get your money, am I right?

Sebastien L.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 11:19
I've emailed the bloke to come on.

Whether he will is another thing...

joe yang
16th August 2006, 11:32
Looks like he used a camera man from the Colbert Report for his photo.
He has a mission statement and a culture statement.
He wears a short sleeved dogi.
This is a joke right? Like Real Ultimate Power or the Mall Ninja?

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 12:22
Hi all,

Thanks for informing me of this site and that I was being discussed. Nice to have a chance to 'defend myself' ;-) I am not here to start a 'flame war', but to simply explain the thinking behind the system I operate. I feel no need to justify myself to anybody else, and this is not the purpose for this posting. I suspect that I've been damned here already, but here is my 2 cents. Thanks.

I am a professional martial artist with over a decade in various systems that I will not bore you with, but they consist of both Traditional and 'urban' types, as well as military experience. I say this not to impress you, but to give you the idea that I am not a 'newbie' in the arts. I use the title 'master' simply to convey that I am the highest ranked Instructor in my (independant) organisation, and not that I am a master martial artist. I have had some experience of big associations (no names mentioned) and some of the 'real masters' were not fit to clean my dojo. Again, I am not going to mention names or get into why I feel they should hang up their belts or else start practicing what they preach. I believe that we should work on mastering ourselves, and to hell with the opinions of others in this regard. How good you think I am is your opinion, and that really is your affair, not mine. Again, i intend to mislead nobody, and apologise for any offence to any master martial artists who feel I am misusing the title.

I am interested in the idea that you think it is 'disgusting' to charge for a 2 year course to become a professional martial artist without you knowing anything about what is taught, how it is taught or how often. Let me guess - you are the guys who still think that martial arts is all about how well you kick and punch, right? Some of the most successful instructors in the world today made first dan in less than 18 months, and have gone on to be respected and constructive members of their communities, providing employment and financial security. How many of you are doing that in the martial arts?

Martial arts (for me anyway) is about making a difference to the people who need our help the most, and this is not done by failing them at graduations because they cannot side kick over their head. The belt is less important than the person. I teach the people who really need me; I am proud to state that I have taught students with varying degrees of paralysis, multiple sclerosis and cerebral palsy, as well as a variety of 'learning disabilities' and social problems. Not all of these students were charged - how do you suppose I make a living doing something I love and being able to help the people who really need it? Sure beats the job I had in IT - what I do for a living now makes a difference and matters. Here's a question for the people who disagree - if you had a terrible car accident and lost the use of your legs would you still be a Black Belt? So how important is the belt, then? Focus on a 'Black Belt Attitude', forget the belt itself. ;-)

By providing a positive, financially successful role model in my community, I am able to impact the kids who want to be 50 Cent or Eminem with the idea that they can become something that really benefits other people and still make a good living. I teach them that they need to make better decisions, and that their decisions are made based primarily on how they feel about themselves. Martial arts gives us the confidence to be ourselves, right? This in turn leads to better decisions, and a chance of a better life.

I am certain that we as martial artists hold the keys to real and positive change in our communities. However, the people who make all the decisions (like making MA a part of the national curriculum, for example) are unlikely to listen to us if we are all part time instructors, so focussed on our past that we ignore our futures. By all means, let's hold onto the traditions of our martial arts forefathers; we owe them a debt of gratitude for the focus and meaning their teachings have given us in our lives. However, I personally feel that I will be closer to their wishes for their arts by helping as many people as possible learn them in an ethical, safe and professional environment, and then go on to teach them to others in the same manner. Not sure if you are aware of this, but there was a list created by the US government stating the most likely sources for children to be sexually abused - and martial arts instructors came in at about number 8. By making this industry more professional, we can drop off the list. That takes money, and lots of it.

With reference to the McDojo comments - Mcdonalds make a lousy hamburger, but they sure have a good system for selling them. We need to make sure that our 'burgers' are top notch, and sell them the same way, regardless of 'type' or 'style'.

If this portion of the forum is an indication of the mindset of 'Traditional' martial arts, where misplaced ego drives people to shoot complete strangers down publicly without courtesy, respect or any attempt at understanding, then I am proud I chose to leave it behind in my evolution as an Instructor.

I am sure that you will all leap in here and flame me regardless, but thank you for taking the time to read this and for giving me the chance to respond.

Kind regards and respect, and apologies if I preached a little to the converted.

Richard Diston

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 13:22
Thank you for coming on and letting us have a chat with you.

I haven’t got a problem with your art. I dare say it’s just as good as any other MA that people wish to study.

HOWEVER, usually charging £10,000 to become a black belt??!? That’s ridiculous! And setting a 2 year time line to do that in I find outrageous. Even with training solidly (about 4 times a week) it’s hardly known to get it before 4-5 years on most known arts. It just strikes me as a money making scheme rather than wanting to get people to the right competence let alone value for money. You are running it like a triangle scheme business rather than wanting to teach people which you say is important to you.

What would you do after 2 years and they weren’t up to ‘black belt’ standard? Refund their money? Or maybe just give them that belt since they are paying for it rather than earning it?

Seems that you are training people to spread a money making scheme with a ‘Quick Route’ to becoming a ‘black belt’ (not even sure if you use dan ranking) rather than wanting to teach MA as your primary goal.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 13:26
'He has a mission statement and a culture statement.
He wears a short sleeved dogi.'

Since when is the length of my sleeves an indication of anything other than I like my uniforms that way? Since when is a public commitment to a course of action and form of behaviour a bad thing?

I suggest that the real issue here is 'martial artists' who parade about talking about courtesy, integrity and respect, then jump on their high horses and attack anyone who is doing something a little differently than them, or has a different opinion. I am referring to people who use their tenets and pledge as a punchline rather than a system for living; people who are more interested in who you trained under and for how long than how well you teach and what you have to offer your students.

Anyone who feels that they fit this image, quit the industry now before you do it any more harm. You are giving those of us who really care enough about the martial arts to quit our jobs and dedicate our lives to it a bad name.

yoj
16th August 2006, 13:33
Richard, a decade in any martial art is not really that long, what progression is there for your students once they become black belts? Most arts have a lineage of teachers teaching roughly the same ideas, and if a deshi learns all he can from one guy, there are others that they can continue to study with in the same theme, whats after 1st dan in your system?

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 13:34
Thanks for your opinion, Matt,

Here is how I operate.

1. Calculate how much money it cost you to become a Black Belt. Chances are, over the course of 4-5 years, it was easily 10k. You never got any specific business training either.

2. Not only does the student get access to 10 hours training per week, but also a separate business and instructor session.

3. Their whole family can participate in classes at no extra charge if they wish.

4. There are no hidden fees for seminars, graduations or equipment.

5. After 2 years, if they are not a Black Belt, they train on for free, but the Instructor course has ended.

6. After the course, they will be able to run their own financially viable martial arts business, or perhaps be hired by me if they are good enough.

10k is not a lot of money if it means that you can make a living for life doing something you love....

Rest assured - ALL my students earn their belts, but what's more important is how they earn them - through continous effort and positive behaviour.

Hope that helped.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 13:42
I encourage my students to seek out as much as they can by way of influences, rather than just get brainwashed by me. I promote continual learning, and feel that if this in place, rank does not matter. If you can teach me something, I'll be happy to learn it - this is most important in my eyes.

After all, everyone here coughed and moaned about my third degree - the bars on my belt are for my students benefit, not mine. We need to stop assessing everyone on the basis of their belts; I know of a 5th degree in the UK who allegedly 'likes kids'...nice belt though, right?

My students are on a path of learning not measured by anyone but themselves, and the Black Belt is simply an indication that they have started, not ended, that journey.

I suppose that we are all going to agree to differ on this one, and I respect that, as well as the efforts you all put into your training. I prefer a different path is all.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 13:51
1. Calculate how much money it cost you to become a Black Belt. Chances are, over the course of 4-5 years, it was easily 10k. You never got any specific business training either.

10k is not a lot of money if it means that you can make a living for life doing something you love....

Rest assured - ALL my students earn their belts, but what's more important is how they earn them - through continous effort and positive behaviour.

Hope that helped.


I just worked it all out, and for me to get my 1st Dan after 4.5 year of training it cost us less than £1900. that was just in one art, I've always cross trained with Wing Chun and other stuff on the side. Even then i doubt everything cost wise adds up to more than £5,000 with all the training I've done and it's been about 9 years seriously now in various arts.

I wouldn't even dream of trying to teach, I would get laughed at by all my seniors.

10k is alot of money, and I don't think any training you can offer would be value for money. It's a down right rip off, nothing you can say can combat this.

You've just admitted that you are doing this as a business practice, not for the love of the art. So I think it's a bit hypocritical to make out you can't work in an office and teach MA at the same time if you want (as what 3 my Sensei/ Sifu do and only charge about £3 or the hall rental) and still not deliver good teaching when you are offering a 'black belt' in under 2 years because you do it as a job.

You are a business not a Dojo, thats what I've got a problem with :)

Hughes
16th August 2006, 13:51
M. Diston,

Tank you for beeing so diligent in answering Matt's invitation. The purpose of this board, however I'm not an ol'timer here, is not to bash people for free as a distraction in our life.
When people see that some claims or ads are "questionnable", they ask for information or better, try to get the explanations from the principal interessé.

For myself (as everybody here is an individual, and not a member of an internet MA morality board!) I wondered what was your reproach against traditional way of becoming instructor. I did not agree with the sentence I quoted because my opinion you basically get a black belt (=teacher/assistant rank) when ready. And this for me has nothing to do with your financial proficiency or hability to run a good business. It has to do whith who you are and who taught you. So I agree that not the sole technical hability should enter in consideration.
So what I lack to see is the link you make between wealthy MA business and healthy instruction. I find the child abuse part odd: I do not know the statistics you cite, but it is my feeling that those might well come from "professionnal" money-making made-up style teachers aswell. And even more from those. But I'm no criminalist so just an impression.

As long as a (really) good MA instruction not only gives you technical proficiency, but also a spirit, a way of behaving with others, a morale, I don't see the necessity of charging that sum for what can be earned from years of dedicate training under recognized senseï in a recognized organization or federation, who were trained by senseï, who were.. etc and then beeing graduated by thoses people who supposedly are able to see qualities in you other than technical

Get me right, I've nothing against good business, or even making a living with MA. But you sound like if MA where a means like another to make money, and quickly. MA are not "quick" in my opinion. If individuals may live from their passion (who would not!) ok, but too many "McDojo" rely on the "aura" of MA to make business. "Do not make money with gangsta rap, make it with true MA?". The morale remains the same. MA in my opinion should change the morale, not only the income means


providing employment and financial security. How many of you are doing that in the martial arts?

not me at least. I even pay for it!! But I thought that was not their purpose...

Regards,

MikeWilliams
16th August 2006, 13:51
Welcome Richard, and thanks for a thoughtful and well-written defence. Given the scant information related to actual martial-art instruction on your site, there is always going to be a suspicion that you are in it purely for the money, so forgive our scepticism.

You also have to accept that we on e-budo are all in it for the love of the arts. Some here do make a succesful living from it, but I’m fairly sure that even those members would still be paying to train if their businesses failed. Most of us are also pre-occupied with the quality of training, rather than monthly turnover figures. Those here who teach (I’m sure) want their students to be the best martial artists they can be, however long it takes. if they run succesful businesses and are community role models, that’s all to the good – but it’s entirely secondary to what happens in the dojo.


Let me guess - you are the guys who still think that martial arts is all about how well you kick and punch, right?

Um... broadly, yes. (Actual physical techniques may vary.)


Martial arts (for me anyway) is about making a difference to the people who need our help the most, and this is not done by failing them at graduations because they cannot side kick over their head

If this is true, how do you ensure that your instructors have the skill set needed to succesfully teach martial arts? How do you ensure quality control? You do freestyle karate, yes? Can you point to any tournament successes by graduates of your programme (or their students)?

I’m not (yet) questioning your martial credentials or the skill of your students, but some indication of what succesful graduates are likely to be able to achieve would help you sell your courses, as well as silencing us sceptics.

What support network do you offer for your students? If they leave your course with the skills and knowledge of a two-year novice, how are they going to attract and retain students? Or do you just take their money and leave them high and dry?


By providing a positive, financially successful role model in my community, I am able to impact the kids who want to be 50 Cent or Eminem with the idea that they can become something that really benefits other people and still make a good living.

Well, that’s great. Personally, I feel there are more appropriate ways of giving back to the community – most of which involve volunteering, rather than charging 10k for a two-year point karate course.

You’re clearly an astute businessman, and if you can get people to hand over such outrageous amounts of dosh, then part of me says good luck to you (caveat emptor). I just don’t believe what you are doing has anything to do with martial arts.

Finally an honest question: wouldn’t your marketing skills be put to more profitable use running investment seminars, or business skill training courses, or yoga/pilates or kickboxercise courses? I would have thought the market for those would be dramatically bigger than the market for freestyle karate.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 14:08
Hey, thanks Mike,

I think there is a clear difference between love of the art and business mentality. I teach because I love it - I get paid because I have to. I choose, therefore, to get paid well. With more money, I can reach more students and teach more classes and have the financial ability to learn more and pass it on.

If what is happening on the practice floor is no good, there is no way I could charge what I charge, and nor would I want to.

Regarding tournaments...we do not compete. Now, before you all roar with dissent; hear me out. I have trained with Russian Special Forces guys who have no trophies, but would kill most karatekas in a blink of an eye. I feel therefore, that winning trophies is no sign of anything other than aan ability to win trophies. I know some 'champions' who are total jerks...Competition for me is a bad thing, breeding winners and losers; and a student who loses is going to blame me for it...I prefer to help them become winners off the practice floor...

Students who finish the CIT course and then go their own way have my blessing, and will have learned everything they need to begin recruiting students. I think our competition is TV and beer, not Whatever Karate down the road. My employees, on the other hand, get all the support they need on a continual basis.

I'm clear that most of the posters here are all about technical proficiency; good for you. Nobody has yet answered the 'lost use of legs' question I posed earlier. A Black Belt is something we become, not something we do, right?

You're right - I do also teach other classes for fitness and weight loss etc, but my passion was and is teaching martial arts.

I'm also clear that nothing I say here is going to help anyone change their mind about me or my business, so I'll respectfully leave you to your opinions and go and do some work instead... ;-)

Kindest Regards

Rich Diston

joe yang
16th August 2006, 14:31
I paid $2000 for a "black belt course" in 1983. It took four years to make 1st dan. I then got very ill, near death. Destitute and invalid, my GM started giving me gas money and shaming me into attending class. It took years to recover. I raised a family. They trained with me. I never paid another dime.

GM always made me understand that if I felt indebted to him, he felt indebted to his GM and the only way to repay that debt was to help someone else. He was a war orphan who escaped poverty on an All Korean TKD scholarship to Seoul University.

Learning every aspect of running a good school was a requirement for all black belts and still is. To this day there is only one main school and one branch school. It is not about running a black belt mill, it is about teaching leadership and responsibility while producing good martial artists and coaches.

I respect Richard for coming on here. The rest is interesting too.

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 14:41
Hi all,

Hi Mr. Diston, welcome. I post very little on e-budo, but you’re worth it. Let’s start:


I am a professional martial artist with over a decadePro in various systems that I will not bore you with, but they consist of both Traditional and 'urban' types, as well as military experience.

Please do, name them, including teachers, their rank and your rank. You can leave you military instructors out of it, for obvious reasons.


I say this not to impress you, but to give you the idea that I am not a 'newbie' in the arts.

Just because you involved in MA for over a decade means crap. So do I. But I’m still a beginner. Like you I’ve trained in several MA. That does make me experienced. In the contrary, it makes me a n00b in several arts. Let me elaborate a bit. Understand it’s principles and knowing the techniques is linked. You can only understand a small part of an art if you don’t know the techniques. You need to know the techniques to understand and be able to perform them to understand it’s priciples. So explain this to me:

Since that time, he has trained in many systems, and firmly believes that the principles of the arts are more important than the techniques that are taught. (from your website)

That’s BS and every MAist knows this. How can you understand it’s principles if you atleast studied the art and got a shodan (basic) level of understaning?

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 14:43
I use the title 'master' simply to convey that I am the highest ranked Instructor in my (independant) organisation, and not that I am a master martial artist.

That doesn’t make you a master…


Again, i intend to mislead nobody, and apologise for any offence to any master martial artists who feel I am misusing the title.

You just said you calling yourself a master, that’s a lie!!! So what is it: are you lying or are you a master in the MA. Dump the title and call yourself the head instructor, your REAL title.

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 14:58
I am interested in the idea that you think it is 'disgusting' to charge for a 2 year course to become a professional martial artist without you knowing anything about what is taught, how it is taught or how often. Let me guess - you are the guys who still think that martial arts is all about how well you kick and punch, right? Some of the most successful instructors in the world today made first dan in less than 18 months, and have gone on to be respected and constructive members of their communities, providing employment and financial security. How many of you are doing that in the martial arts?

Ohhh Lord here we go. You just made a huge mistake friend. Being a successful (rich) and being a good MA-ist is a huge difference. Successful means making a load of money in your eyes. Not in mine. A good instructor has years of experience in the art he teaches. He knows a hell of a lot more then just the basics. He understands the art; it’s history, principles and techniques and is able to apply them. It doesn’t mean being able to run a good business. They’re suppose to be good teachers, not greedy managers. A good MA instructor (in most cases) non-provit out of pure love of the MA. Most (almost all) the high ranking MA-ists I’ve met have very little money to spend and need a day job to support the dojo. This is because they like to keep the dojo cheap so the art is accessible for every body and to keep the level of instructors high. Money making martial artists have to much students, low level instructors (or no-level), and watered down MA.

It takes many years to become proficient in an art. You need to understand all it’s principles, techniques and you need to be able to apply them. Unless you train 5 days a week for two years, it might, it just might get you at basic level. You can make them great instructor, but as far as I know they have nothing to teach. Except BS.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 15:04
Hey TJ, I've just checked out your profile.

Rather than worry about my rank, pedigree, business , philosophy, tournament successes, instructors, favourite colour, why don't you instead focus your efforts on finishing your education and not being broke all the time?

This seems to be a common problem in the world at large; everyone seems intent on bothering themselves with someone else's business, when in actuality none of it is important. Minding your own business is the best way of making that business a success, it seems to me. I am not interested in publicly hanging someone about their pedigree or lack of, it does not help me get where I want to be. You could promote yourself as 10 dan High Grand Poohbah; it's your deal and does not affect me. Believe me, I know some shamartial artists who got on a plane a 3rd and got off a 5th degree, and I could spend my life exposing them. Better yet, spend my life teaching and to hell with them.

Understand this; I answer to nobody but God, and that won't be happening for a while, hopefully. ;-) In the meantime, I'll do the best I can to do what I feel is best.

If anyone feels that the course I advertised is a 'disgrace'; don't pay for it. If you are more interested in who I am and what I am that in your own life and training, your Instructors have my deepest sympathies.

Rich Diston

MikeWilliams
16th August 2006, 15:06
I just worked it all out, and for me to get my 1st Dan after 4.5 year of training it cost us less than £1900.

When I was in the WJJF, I reckon it cost me around £2500 over the four and a bit years it took me to reach shodan. This included an *excellent* NVQ-accredited coaching course (which I never completed, sadly, due to my leaving to focus on BJJ/MMA).

The WJJF has its (sometimes justified) critics, but the instructor training was superb - granted, it didn't go into the commercial side of running a dojo for profit, but there are dedicated business seminars available for that, at fairly reasonable prices.

An OU degree in business studies would only cost around £4k for example, and you'd have a degree at the end of it.

There's even a whole section of Q&A on the subject available on e-budo, gratis and for nix. As far as I recall, it covers most of the basics.

Anyone taking one of Richard's two-year programmes is deluding themselves if they think they will recoup their investment. If they were astute enough to make a succesful living in MA, they would also be astute enough to realise that the courses advertised here *do not* make sound financial sense.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 15:18
When I was in the WJJF, I reckon it cost me around £2500 over the four and a bit years it took me to reach shodan. This included an *excellent* NVQ-accredited coaching course (which I never completed, sadly, due to my leaving to focus on BJJ/MMA).



Lol well as you know Mike my Dojang is in a community church hall teached by my sabumnim who is a teacher at a Korean business English language school. I'm the only one who can actually speak English there as they are all bloody korean and I was only allowed to train there as they don't like white people and wanted a kick bag :D Getting respect in that place was like collecting rocking horse poop! :D And when they realised I could order beer for them in the pub helped too :rolleyes:

He only charged £3 as I think deep down he felt sorry for us :p

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 15:21
Don't presume to know what makes a successful instructor in my eyes. Where is your respect? If not for me as as Instructor(understandable), then as a person?

Furthermore; the biggest impact I ever made on a student was not a spinning roundhouse to break some bricks; it was something I said to them. How long does it take to develop wisdom? A lot less than an awesome spinning kick in some cases (and mine isn't great - bad hips) ;-)

I feel that unless you have something positive to add to what has become a debate on business vs emotional / historical reasons for teaching, I will be unwilling to engage you further.

Joe Yang - sounds like you had a cracking Instructor, and I'm glad he was committed to helping you and your family. That's what this is about, but people only read what suits them...

Mike - I learned the martial arts business specific system I now operate, paid 10k for it and generated 70k last year using it. Sound financial sense? I'm no accountant but that seems like a pretty good return. Also, some of the students on the course at the moment are about a 3rd of the way through and are already making income from within the business. They learn the same business model that I use...

Does anyone know the kanji symbols for 'holier than thou', by the way? (not you, mike ;-) )

Unless this starts going somewhere soon in terms of intelligent debate rather than emotional reaction based on what your instructors taught you, I'm off this forum. We talk about 'leadership' so much in this industry when most of the people in it follow the advice of their predecessors meekly like sheep.

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 15:24
Martial arts (for me anyway) is about making a difference to the people who need our help the most, and this is not done by failing them at graduations because they cannot side kick over their head.

That’s just crap. That’s BS. Helping those who need it is the most important part, WTF, are you nuts? What do you think social workers are for? Being a good MA-ist is about being good at the MA your practice.


Sure beats the job I had in IT - what I do for a living now makes a difference and matters. Here's a question for the people who disagree - if you had a terrible car accident and lost the use of your legs would you still be a Black Belt? So how important is the belt, then? Focus on a 'Black Belt Attitude', forget the belt itself. ;-)

At least in the IT business you weren’t scamming folks out of their money.


By providing a positive, financially successful role model in my community, I am able to impact the kids who want to be 50 Cent or Eminem with the idea that they can become something that really benefits other people and still make a good living.

What by scamming folks? 50 ct is honest about how he gets his cash. You, I’m not sure.


I teach them that they need to make better decisions, and that their decisions are made based primarily on how they feel about themselves. Martial arts gives us the confidence to be ourselves, right? This in turn leads to better decisions, and a chance of a better life.

Give them a pep talk, it has the same effect. In MA you need to be proficient or you (or a student) might get into a fight and find out all you/he/she learned was BS and get killed or raped (if you de empty handed MA).


However, I personally feel that I will be closer to their wishes for their arts by helping as many people as possible learn them in an ethical, safe and professional environment, and then go on to teach them to others in the same manner.

Both can be done at the same time. Why does it have to be one or the other, it doesn’t.


Not sure if you are aware of this, but there was a list created by the US government stating the most likely sources for children to be sexually abused - and martial arts instructors came in at about number 8. By making this industry more professional, we can drop off the list. That takes money, and lots of it.

Come on do you really believe that making MA more professional reduces the amount of child predators in the MA business? I believe to opposite, if everybody can become a MA-ist in 2 years (or act like one) there will be more child predators hiding behind a “black belt” to attract kids. If it takes a decade to become good in you art it will scare away those who want to use MA to attract and abuse children. A lot of the reports I hear/read about child abuse are from “pseudo legit” dojos.


With reference to the McDojo comments - Mcdonalds make a lousy hamburger, but they sure have a good system for selling them. We need to make sure that our 'burgers' are top notch, and sell them the same way, regardless of 'type' or 'style'.

Sounds like you, sorry.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 15:33
Does anyone know the kanji symbols for 'holier than thou', by the way? (not you, mike ;-) )

Unless this starts going somewhere soon in terms of intelligent debate rather than emotional reaction based on what your instructors taught you, I'm off this forum. We talk about 'leadership' so much in this industry when most of the people in it follow the advice of their predecessors meekly like sheep.

Lol, when I read 'holier than thou' I read it in a Harry Enfield "Considerably richer than Yaaow!" voice, I don't know why! :D

To be honest I think us traditionalist and a person as yourself who sees it as a business venture differ from 2 different worlds. None are correct as they are just opinions at the end of the day, they are just different points of view towards gaining a goal.



How long does it take to develop wisdom? A lot less than an awesome spinning kick in some cases (and mine isn't great - bad hips) ;-)


I was trying to just agree to disagree but just gotta make one last snide comment quick :D

Developing wisdom takes a HELL of a lot longer than learning a kick! A spin kick may take a couple of weeks hard practice.Wisdom takes a lifetime :) The accumulation of facts is called knowledge, the use of knowledge is called Wisdom which only a handful of people (me not being one of them :rolleyes: ) know in this world. ;)

Ciao and take it easy, I just think it's different practices. I've just realised I've gotta resurect the baffling budo dictionary for another bashing ;)

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 15:33
Hey TJ, I've just checked out your profile.

Rather than worry about my rank, pedigree, business , philosophy, tournament successes, instructors, favourite colour, why don't you instead focus your efforts on finishing your education and not being broke all the time?

First of all it's Tijs. To you foreigners it sound the same as Tj, but not here.

Your ranks shows us if you're just some piece of $h!t or the real deal. Are you afraid we might find out who you really are? If not, just tell us. If you are a legit MA-ist you've got nothing to fear.

Butt out of my education, school is expensive. Have you ever been to college?

Hughes
16th August 2006, 15:38
Unless this starts going somewhere soon in terms of intelligent debate rather than emotional reaction based on what your instructors taught you, I'm off this forum. We talk about 'leadership' so much in this industry when most of the people in it follow the advice of their predecessors meekly like sheep.

I sadly agree with you about the sterility of the debate... For me at least, we don't talk about the same thing, and not with the same language. With no judgment: it all depends on the point of view...

I'm not in an industry, and follow the advice of my predecessors because in taking Naginata, I learned that wisdom would not be mine before a LONG time.. if ever!

I was told it's described as Shu-Ha-Ri...

Wish me good luck on that way, I wish you good luck on yours.

No harm intended

MikeWilliams
16th August 2006, 15:39
Mike - I learned the martial arts business specific system I now operate, paid 10k for it and generated 70k last year using it. Sound financial sense? I'm no accountant but that seems like a pretty good return. Also, some of the students on the course at the moment are about a 3rd of the way through and are already making income from within the business. They learn the same business model that I use...

I very much hope that's true. It would still leave me sceptical about the martial content of your courses, but I can live with that. Not everybody trains for the same reasons, and even McDojos have their place.

I would also hope that any prospective student of yours comes armed with a long and detailed list of questions about what exactly they will be getting for their money (again, some more information on your website would help - e.g. a timetable, and names/descriptions of the course modules).

Come to think of it, my BJJ school shares premises with a non-/semi-contact kickboxing school, and they are absolutely coining it in. Plus they have lots of good-looking female students. Hmmmm, maybe I'm in the wrong career...

On a positive note Richard, I respect the way you've conducted yourself on here, especially as you knew in advance you would get flamed. I actually hope you stick around and contribute from time to time. I don't share your views, but it's good to get a different perspective.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 15:43
TJ - you have no idea about what the martial arts should be about. You think that people get into MA because they want to become great physical specimens? Ever taught at a women's refuge? Thought not. They are not interested in how good their horse stance is, let me tell you. BTW - Traditional MA is going to get you killed in a confrontation, so don't start peddaling that 'self defence' rubbish. Mat ability has nothing to do with the reality of conflict. I'm ex-forces, so can speak with some authority on the matter... As for butting out of your education; butt out of slagging off my livelihood. You so curious about my rank and whether i'm for real or not...come over and find out for yourself. I have nothing to fear...certainly not from you. You talk like a white belt I kicked out last month.

Anyone else accuses me of being a scammer or a con artist; make an appointment and we can have a coffee over our differences - I'm buying. ;-) Maybe we can all learn something...

That's it.

I've said my piece and I'm done. Enjoy the forums; shame we cannot all agree all the time. Train hard, fight easy, be noble.

monkeyboy_ssj
16th August 2006, 15:44
On a positive note Richard, I respect the way you've conducted yourself on here, especially as you knew in advance you would get flamed. I actually hope you stick around and contribute from time to time. I don't share your views, but it's good to get a different perspective.

^^ Seconded :)

Hughes
16th August 2006, 15:49
On a positive note Richard, I respect the way you've conducted yourself on here, especially as you knew in advance you would get flamed. I actually hope you stick around and contribute from time to time. I don't share your views, but it's good to get a different perspective.

I second that

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 15:56
Hey, thanks guys. Means a lot. Hopefully now this thread will move from this 'questionable location' to a different one!

Perhaps it was down to the 'warmness' of my welcome ;-) that I might hang out after all.

Seems like while the reasons we stay in the martial arts may differ, I firmly believe that the core reasons we started in the first place are not so different. Whether we went the path of Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Russian or whatever, I feel we were looking for the same things. We should remember and embrace those reasons, instead of clinging desperately to the path we took to realise them. No system is wrong, unless it harms the mind, body, spirit or country.

See you around.
;-)

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 16:07
TJ - you have no idea about what the martial arts should be about.

Maybe, maybe not. But telling people that the can be a proficient MA instructor in 18 months isn’t it.

[QUOTE=Richie_D]Ever taught at a women's refuge? Thought not. They are not interested in how good their horse stance is, let me tell you.

Neither is giving these women a false feeling of security.


BTW - Traditional MA is going to get you killed in a confrontation, so don't start peddaling that 'self defence' rubbish. Mat ability has nothing to do with the reality of conflict.

Not all MA. But most MA, even traditional ones, will become proficient at some level. Mat ability, sparring, randori and tournaments, might not be the real world but will teach you how you react during stress and fear. As ex-forces guy, you must have trained on the mat, so that when the moment came, you where ready.


I'm ex-forces, so can speak with some authority on the matter... As for butting out of your education; butt out of slagging off my livelihood. You so curious about my rank and whether i'm for real or not...come over and find out for yourself.

I’m broke remember? I can’t come over. What is wrong about questioning your legitimacy? All the fakes I’ve seen on this board where afraid to show us their credentials: prove me wrong.


I have nothing to fear...certainly not from you. You talk like a white belt I kicked out last month.

Whooo, I’m soooo scared… not. No you’ve got nothing to fear, but I thought you forces folks where all about honour and respect?


Anyone else accuses me of being a scammer or a con artist; make an appointment and we can have a coffee over our differences - I'm buying. ;-) Maybe we can all learn something...

Can some one visit the guy? I really want to know his credentials

Ohhh, it’s still Tijs. Show some respect and call me by my name, thanks.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 16:16
Tijs,

'Neither is giving these women a false feeling of security.'
How does this happen? Do you know what I teach them? The course I offer is approved by the Womens Institute, btw.

The first time I used my martial arts to defend myself, I got a kicking. Not because I wasn't any good on the mat, but emotionally I was unprepared for the violence I was involved in. Traditional training on a mat does not prepare for this; check out Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer or Gary Payne for more on this. This would make an interesting thread on its own, unless its here already..

Why is this all about my credentials with you? Are you taking the course? No? Never mind about them, then. I prove who I am to anyone I am about to do business with, and not time wasters with nothing better to do.

Don't be scared - you wouldn't be harmed. What on earth do you think I am? It was a genuine invitation; maybe when you've got more money...

'Ohhh, it’s still Tijs. 'Show some respect and call me by my name'
Done. Now earn some and bring something useful to the debate.

Lee Mc'pherson
16th August 2006, 16:30
Ex forces? What regiment?cap badge anything? I hate it when guys talk about the forces as if it means anything and should prove something.
Were did you serve? Were did you see action soldier? That would count for something but even then i know SF boys in Iraq who didn.t even fire off one round. And I would not teach a womans refuge in a different way then I would teach anyone else. Oh and before you start asking yes i have had more than a brief encounter with people that have had abusive pasts and although MA is a useful tool in some of these situations it can have a completly opposite effect in others.

Lee Mc'pherson
16th August 2006, 16:36
Mr. Diston I think it would set every ones mind at ease if you outlined you curicculum for us. I mean all this about the philosophy and the mind set is of course vital but we are still talking about a MA so what are the physical skill sets that you teach? Does your training factor in psychological and physical aspects and if so in which way? It is these things more than lineage that would show one's knoweldge and perhaps even their goals.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 16:45
Hi Lee,

I was RAF ground crew, certainly nothing to shout about. Rather, the combat I experienced was in the Naafi twice a week; scarier than Iraq... ;-)

I teach reality based systems to the people who need self protection, and the freestyle karate (sports syllabus) to those who are looking for fitness, flexibility, sparring, that kind of thing. I am under no illusions that the sports stuff will be of any help in a fight, so do not teach it with that emphasis.

It's all about tailoring the course to the client; someone wanting to learn self protection is hardly going to get what they need from a nunchaku class...so I run different classes for different things. The focus is not on what I want to teach, but on what the students want from their MA training. Anything else seems a little arrogant to me.

Brilliant posts and you are bang on with your questions. The content of the CIT course is available for anyone who wants to email me for the .pdf. ;-)

The MA is predominantly a CKD/ TKD stand-up mixture with additional elements from Shotokan Karate (in terms of the wonderful variety of open handed striking) and Krav Maga (elbow and knee work). The reality stuff I teach is more based in Kadishnikov and Ryabko Systema systems and some Hagganah /Krav Maga materials. I would love to train in BJJ and Wing Chun, but lack the time right now. ;-) I termed the sports stuff Freestyle Karate rather than be one of these blokes choosing an oriental name in an attempt to sound authentic. ;-)

Hope that helps.

Lee Mc'pherson
16th August 2006, 16:55
Yes they can be very dangerous LOL
Now while I don't agree on what you are doing (it's an ethical thing for me) you have made no wild claims and seem quite truthfull about what it is you do. That being the case I wish you could luck in your journey mate.

joe yang
16th August 2006, 16:57
Richard, I have ten years experience in prison as a defensive tactics instructor and a shift response team leader and that is just for starters. I call BS on your dismissal of traditional martial arts and your claims of combat experience. While I do respect you for coming on here, as a successful, working, professional martial artist myself, who are you to tell us what the martial arts are? And for where this thread belongs, stick around.

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 16:59
Tijs,
Thank you


Neither is giving these women a false feeling of security.'
How does this happen? Do you know what I teach them? The course I offer is approved by the Womens Institute, btw.
Do the women who've approved you course any MA experience? Doubt it. That's the whole point. There are a lot of experienced martial artist on this forum. They can check credential and know real from wrong MA. Be open, you’ve got nothing to lose if you honest. If you’re a genuine MA-ist, what’s the harm?

The first time I used my martial arts to defend myself, I got a kicking. Not because I wasn't any good on the mat, but emotionally I was unprepared for the violence I was involved in. Traditional training on a mat does not prepare for this; check out Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer or Gary Payne for more on this. This would make an interesting thread on its own, unless its here already...
Point taken. However, I believe that proper mat training ("live attacks", sparring and I don't mean a few light punches, I mean full contact) at least to some point prepares you. I know when the monkey stuff hit the fan you will react different then training, however a well trained person, with many years of training and experience has a better chance of getting through the fight then some rookie MA wannabe instructor with 2 years of "training".

Why is this all about my credentials with you? Are you taking the course? No? Never mind about them, then. I prove who I am to anyone I am about to do business with, and not time wasters with nothing better to do.
What is it with you trying to hide them? I've got not problem telling people what I've done. The reason I ask is because you are asking a load of money for something that might be a load of rubbish. I ask because this is a MA forum, that's what we do. Ask questions, investigate so that one day some unsuspecting person can be warned if it's fake. (BTW I've got a day off, and yes this is becomming a waste of time)

Don't be scared - you wouldn't be harmed. What on earth do you think I am? It was a genuine invitation; maybe when you've got more money...
I know it was, but why does some one have to come by and ask you for your credentials in person? What's the big deal of telling folks on the net?

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 17:08
I respect your opinion. I feel that the traditional MA was a system developed for a different battlefield in a different age. This is only my opinion, and one I developed through getting into all sorts of scrapes and seeing what worked for me.

I certainly did not suggest that any one traditional system was a waste of time, but rather that the emphasis is on the individual - it is the person who makes the system work and not the other way around. In fact, the times I got hurt worst in training were when I was trying to fight like someone else (my instructor, Bruce Lee, whoever ;-) ) I operated better when I slipped out of a traditional technical approach to something looser and more 'me'. Forgive any indication that I was preaching that I know more about what is and isn't MA than anyone else, it was not my intention.

My 'claims of combat experience' are naught - i've claimed a few fights over the years during my younger days. I don't purport to be anything special in the MA, and am keen to learn from anyone who can share something of value with me.

Have you ever trained with Gary Payne?

Mr. T.
16th August 2006, 17:09
The MA is predominantly a CKD/ TKD stand-up mixture with additional elements from Shotokan Karate (in terms of the wonderful variety of open handed striking) and Krav Maga (elbow and knee work). The reality stuff I teach is more based in Kadishnikov and Ryabko Systema systems and some Hagganah /Krav Maga materials. I would love to train in BJJ and Wing Chun, but lack the time right now. ;-) I termed the sports stuff Freestyle Karate rather than be one of these blokes choosing an oriental name in an attempt to sound authentic. ;-)

Hope that helps.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Now I've got to ask this. Do you teach all of this or do you hire specialists from each area of expertise? Because this is a whole lot for one person to master. Now I still haven't got the credentials, do you have any gradings in these arts or did you just get a few classes and desided to teach? And what is freestyle karate?

larsen_huw
16th August 2006, 19:07
Sorry to jump in so late ... a lot can happen in 24 hours. :)

Having come into martial arts via a McDojo, I don't have a problem with what you do. You're bringing the idea of martial arts to people who would otherwise never have thought of it. Most will drop out through lack of motivation, and the rest will eventually get enough interest to see what else is out there and how it compares to you and make their own choices about moving on.

I find the idea of paying that much for a course sickening ... but that's your perogotive (and my opinion) so not really much I can do about that. I take it from the quote below that last year you managed to find seven people willing to pay that sort of money for two year's of training.


... Mike - I learned the martial arts business specific system I now operate, paid 10k for it and generated 70k last year using it. ...

And just for reference, the acknowledged masters of money making karate in the UK - GKR - charge £325 a year for unlimited training and their instructor course is no more expensive than a standard lesson (and is included within the £325 unlimited training). Being over 15 times more expensive than GKR is quite an achievement.



...On a positive note Richard, I respect the way you've conducted yourself on here, especially as you knew in advance you would get flamed. I actually hope you stick around and contribute from time to time. I don't share your views, but it's good to get a different perspective. ...

Despite everything I've said above, I would definately echo Mike's comments. While we don't see eye to eye on this issue, you have conducted yourself well and I for one would be happy to see you stick around and give your perspective on issues discussed here.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 21:10
Hmmmn - not exactly how it went down last year.

I didn'y make the whole amount in CIT courses - my average charges are as follows (for anyone so interested)

3 x 1 hour classes per week £95 per month
2 x 1 hour classes per week £75 per month

Lil' Dragons classes (5 to 8yrs) £50 per month 1 x 30 minute lesson

6 weeks trials are £99 and there is a £99 enrolment fee. CIT makes up a small portion of my revenue. Now, like it or not, it works and pays me enough to keep the school running while not having to go back and do IT work any more...;-)

When you go shopping for meat, do you go for the cheap Tesco packet or the black and sexy Aberdeen Angus packets...? I prefer to brand my system of teaching like the Aberdeen Angus and strive to provide all my students with a high degree of service they would expect for the money. Any suggestion on here that I am a conman or some kind of villain comes from people who have not experienced my classes or my level of service. I understand, I really do. When I came to this business system, I was just like you guys. I thought it was shallow and would damage the arts. Now, I was right about the people behind the system; not too keen on their ethics, but I see nothing wrong with making money. We cannot fund good causes without it.

I'd love to see the UK industry less fragmented and ego driven and all getting together, regardless of style, to promote the great work that we all do and get ourselves higher regarded in our society. Think how chiropractors are thought of....they'll fix a back, we can fix a life!

Great input - thanks.

PS. Never heard of GKR, maybe because they aren't paying the hall hire fees that I'm paying in my area---ouch. If I was charging bottom dollar, I'd be flat broke...£27 per hour! I prefer to teach smaller classes rather than cram a hundred students into a mat and try to service them all. I just would not be able to survive on charging less without degrading the service.

Prince Loeffler
16th August 2006, 21:23
Attn: Mr. Richi D


You do understand that when you signed up for E-Budo, you have agreed to POST YOUR FULL NAME in evey post you make. You have only posted your name ONCE ! and you have made 12 post without the required rule.

Please do so at your next post, otherwise you will be sent to hell and you will lose your ability to post. All you have to do is click on the user CP and scroll down on the Signature line.

Thank you and please return to upright position.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 21:32
Apologies

Richard Diston ;-)

larsen_huw
16th August 2006, 21:38
... 3 x 1 hour classes per week £95 per month
2 x 1 hour classes per week £75 per month ...

On a completely different subject from the pricing, and for no other reason that it's piqued my interest: Do you find it difficult to get much teaching done in an hour? By the time you've warmed up and warmed down, you've probably only got a maximum of 40 minutes teaching. That doesn't leave too much wiggle room to go into any great depth while going through a lesson.



... When you go shopping for meat, do you go for the cheap Tesco packet or the black and sexy Aberdeen Angus packets...? ...

I tend to hang round the reduced counter of Tesco's near closing time waiting for those nice juicy steaks to come down to a realistic price! :D

But that's just cos I'm tight!



... Any suggestion on here that I am a conman or some kind of villain comes from people who have not experienced my classes or my level of service. ...

You have come across as nothing but open and honest - I for one would never accuse you of being a conman or a crook ... however I still baulk at your charges. But you are open about your prices - you appear to be open about the service this huge wedge of cash gets you - and you obviously manage to find enough people willing to hand over such large amounts of money to keep the bills paid. So while I feel what you do is wrong, i don't mean in any legal sense. It would just be against my principals to make that much money from it. And that probably makes as little sense to you as your way does to me - but that's the beauty of this world ... we all see it from a different point of view. It would be a very boring place if we all thought the same way. :)



... PS. Never heard of GKR, maybe because they aren't paying the hall hire fees that I'm paying in my area---ouch. If I was charging bottom dollar, I'd be flat broke...£27 per hour! I prefer to teach smaller classes rather than cram a hundred students into a mat and try to service them all. I just would not be able to survive on charging less without degrading the service.

GKR are fairly countrywide - they definately seem to have saturated most of the places I've lived in recently. They go for bit of a blanket coverage approach. Lots of classes in an area, between 10-25 students a class, and training fees of £5.50 for 1 1/2 hours or you can buy 3,6 or 12 months unlimited training - which was the price I quoted earlier (all prices were flat rate across the country). Not sure exactly where in the country you are, but you probably aren't more than a few miles from a GKR dojo.

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 21:50
Interesting.

Time wise, we really stick to a class planner. I found that when I was running longer classes, students would burn out towards the end and end up injured or too knackered to train the next day. That 40 minutes is not really standalone time; the class links into the next one and the terms classes all fit into a theme. This also works great for retention, as they don't want to miss anything.

Smart move on the meat thing...must try it out. ;-)

I appreciate the reaction of most of the guys on here; like I said, it was my reaction too. I went to a seminar by this guy (who I will NOT name unless in a private conversation) and I wrote down everything he said, even the stuff I disagreed with. Over time, I revisited those notes, and gradually found that in the end, I agreed with most of it. It was a process of change, and one that has served me well so far. That process continues, and I am still learning. I guess there is a 'never the twain' gulf between the 'starving artist' mentality and the MA businessmen. (no offence intended) Hey, if we can all be nice and agree to disagree over something as important as this, maybe there is hope in the Middle East.. ;-)

Prince Loeffler
16th August 2006, 21:55
Apologies

Richard Diston ;-)


Thank you for your compliance sir !

yoj
16th August 2006, 21:56
The first time I used my martial arts to defend myself, I got a kicking. Not because I wasn't any good on the mat, but emotionally I was unprepared for the violence I was involved in. Traditional training on a mat does not prepare for this; check out Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer or Gary Payne for more on this. This would make an interesting thread on its own, unless its here already..




This is a valid point, and worth looking at. It's true that the majority of schools don't address adrenaline dumps and associated de-escalation techniques, fence barriers and what to do when there are no choices left. However, while RBSD systems have their place, and elements within them have a place in a normal dojo just for students awareness of what else is out there to consider, it doesn't preclude the values learned in a normal dojo. So i agree in principle with the above, these are concepts than can be layered on top of the 'traditional' approach.

But don't denounce the traditional stuff, some of it is worthwhile studying for a long period of time, thats how they happened to be, after getting past the initial period of "yep that will do to save our butts" the traditionalists started noticing fun details to play with, and arts developed, all thats happening now is that traditionalists, like GT, are reverse engineering the stuff to fit the modern context. Though way back when, they didnt bother with adrenaline analysis, they used esoteric methods to self hypnotise because they needed to control adrenaline, as it wasnt going to cut the mustard during protracted confrontations on a real battlefield.

anyway, back to garbage TV ;-)

Richie_D
16th August 2006, 21:59
This is a valid point, and worth looking at. It's true that the majority of schools don't address adrenaline dumps and associated de-escalation techniques, fence barriers and what to do when there are no choices left. However, while RBSD systems have their place, and elements within them have a place in a normal dojo just for students awareness of what else is out there to consider, it doesn't preclude the values learned in a normal dojo. So i agree in principle with the above, these are concepts than can be layered on top of the 'traditional' approach.

But don't denounce the traditional stuff, some of it is worthwhile studying for a long period of time, thats how they happened to be, after getting past the initial period of "yep that will do to save our butts" the traditionalists started noticing fun details to play with, and arts developed, all thats happening now is that traditionalists, like GT, are reverse engineering the stuff to fit the modern context. Though way back when, they didnt bother with adrenaline analysis, they used esoteric methods to self hypnotise because they needed to control adrenaline, as it wasnt going to cut the mustard during protracted confrontations on a real battlefield.

anyway, back to garbage TV ;-)

I agree - nicely put. I guess I typed a little heavily with the finger of death technique I learned from a DVD last weekend and it all came out a little unclear.

yoj
16th August 2006, 22:17
No worries, and anyway, i was agreeing ;-)

I spent time in an eclectic modern dojo which covered that stuff, then went into a quite traditional school, fromthe outside it's not so obvious, but the same principles applied, its just that in the first the ideas were verbalised, in the second they were contained within the forms. Theres more to the old forms than meet the eye, they are 2 person, and teach a break point between situation and non-situation, and solve it with aggressive reaction, breaking down distance immediately and taking control, without forcing a redmist response. A recent altercation showed me the worth of both, it's all good. Traditional forms like that enable an all out reaction where there is still safety on the mat, so you can role play with feeling, no different i suppose to doing RBSD techniques with some intention, and an agreement about what you both are doing, for safety.

joe yang
17th August 2006, 01:34
I feel that the traditional MA was a system developed for a different battlefield in a different age.

You also said something to the effect that traditional martial arts don't train you for the realities of real combat. My point is, traditional martial arts training prepared me very well for a very hostile environment. Maybe you didn't train with the right instructor, or long enough.

I do not object to what you teach. Not everyone wants what traditional martial arts offer. Don't dismiss it. You do. I am calling you on it. Is that negative?

Trevor Johnson
17th August 2006, 04:18
Not to be rude or anything, but could you tell us where you trained? Part of the clashing I'm seeing here is coming from your views of the more "traditional" arts vs those of others who've trained in them, and it might help calm things down if you provide this info. It always helps, when we've got a disagreement, to know where the other person's coming from. You can put 'em in your profile, or post 'em here, either way, but it would be good to know.

Hughes
17th August 2006, 09:04
mmm... advise to future contested MAists: it takes a page for everyone to chill down and get good things from the other party! :P

Good thread, I learned things...

Richie_D
17th August 2006, 09:35
Hi guys,

I'm not totally dismissive of traditional MA, and I suppose I kinda misrepresented myself - apologies for that. ;-)

I trained in Shotokan for about 3 years (about 4-5 times per week) and left due to hip injury. I chilled for a while and recovered (sort of!) and then moved across to softer, more flowing styles that I felt worked better for me. Was never really into the whole 'belt' thing until I decided that I wanted to teach, at which point I jumped on the mill and started grading. I'm another example that MA should complement your life rather than consume it...when I was training everything else just disappeared, and that includes a wife...

Something I found in Shotokan was this; everything we practiced was hard movement, low stances and very stylised, but all this went out of the window the minute we started sparring. It felt like training for a race, then hitting the start line and running it backwards. Perhaps I missed the point....then again my instructor was a loony and used to bring his 'girlfriend' problems onto the mat and take it out on us...

I found CKD to be a great system that helped me to relieve some of the rigidity from traditional MA in my body, but did not do so well with the ethics of the whole operation. After that, I sought out more combative approach, and went for Russian Systema in both Rybako and Kadishnikov flavours, and trained in the Ukraine. (That was a little scary!) These systems are more about principle that technique, and made me realise that provided I understand what is meant to happen, it doesn't really matter how I make it happen. We are all different, physically, mentally and emotionally, and I loved this philosophy in the Russian MA. It means that everybody can learn to fight like themselves, rather than trying to imitate a GrandMaster or someone else with completely different physical capabilities and thereby empowering everyone with the ability to protect themselves their way.

Hey, guess what? For my new friends here in the forum who are close to N London; I have Alexander Maksimtov training at our place this monday night from 1830-2030. He's the senior trainer for combat preparations for the interior ministry of the Ukraine and a great guy. Also president of the Russian MA in the Ukraine. If you want to attend as my guest, drop me an email on info@blackbeltleader.co.uk and I'll give you the details. Tickets normally £30 but for you guys...nada. Let me know.

Have a great day, and let's see where this goes.... ;-)

joe yang
17th August 2006, 13:22
The first time I used my martial arts to defend myself, I got a kicking. Not because I wasn't any good on the mat, but emotionally I was unprepared for the violence I was involved in. Traditional training on a mat does not prepare for this; check out Geoff Thompson, Tony Blauer or Gary Payne for more on this.

Never said you were a fraud or conman. I don't believe you are. Nor have I questioned your training, rank or talent. That is what a lot of debate on this forum is about. Sorry you are being lumped in with some bad company.

But we have distinctly different views of the martial arts. You very publicly proclaim your virtues on the internet. I am not contesting those virtues. What you do not realize is you are saying traditional martial arts are inadequate and the farther into this debate we go the more you demonstrate your ignorance of the many virtues of traditional martial arts training. I find that every bit as disrespectful and immodest and lacking in virtue as you find me.

This is E-Budo, it is a forum for traditional martial artists. It is were we champion a tradition which is assailed at every turn by all manor of "business men" trying to capture the public imagination by dissing traditional training. I might add, I am not saying budo is the only way, or the right way, or that your way is not good.

I believe we can respectfully agree to disagree. But stop trying to make me admit I am wrong and spare me the trite philosophy. If I wanted fortune cookie wisdom I would study a traditional martial art. LOL

P Goldsbury
17th August 2006, 13:37
I think this thread has ceased to be Baffling, as this is commonly accepted in E-Budo. So for the time being I am moving it to Gendai Budo.

I must confess to some personal misgivings about this. This is a forum dedicated to Japanese budo and many posters have spent long years training in a traditional Japanese way. Here in Japan we do not often use the Japanese equivalent of the term 'black belt'. It is usually X dan, with the X representing numbers from 1 to 8. So shodan signals the start of serious training, not the culmination of a succession of coloured belts. This is if you operate a dan system. The earlier Japanese systems of kyouju dairi, mokuroku or menkyo do not rely on belts or colours at all.

However, I teach in the Department of Management in Hiroshima University and I am also aware that the traditional Japanese master-student paradigm has a heavy bias towards the student who has the financial means to support his/her master, who is supposed to be unconcerned with money. Perhaps this is because samurai were supposed to demonstrate the virtues of modesty and thrift to the lower orders, but eventually had to be modest and thrifty because they did not have the money to be otherwise.

Anyway, Mr Diston has blown a few gusts of wind through these hallowed Japanese traditions by questioning the accepted wisdom that martial artists are not supposed to make money by practising martial arts.

Many thanks to Mr Diston and other members for focusing on the real issues and I hope the discussion will continue.

Best wishes to all,

Richie_D
17th August 2006, 13:38
Sorry Sir,

I don't mean to 'diss' the traditional arts; the fact that I don't feel so comfortable with them combatively does not mean that I think they have nothing to offer. On the contrary - I loved my time in Shotokan (loony instructor aside) and benefitted enormously in a wide variety of ways. The fact that I am not really discussing them here does not mean i'm not aware of them. ;-)

Bearing in mind that e-budo is for traditionalists, I'm going to stick out here like an elephant at a dog show. I am glad that we can disagree respectfully, and I am sorry that you found my thinking as 'trite'; I can get over that though. ;-)

You know, I used to be a complete tyrant. I was so tied up in being 'right' that most of the I ended up being wrong. MA helped me get over that and to allow other people their opinions, their mistakes and their weaknesses. Made me a better person, I think, even if it didn't save my marriage. There's an example of traditional MA benefits! (the training, not the divorce...) ;-)

Still hoping for this thread to be moved someplace where I have 'better company'... ;-)

Kind Regards

Richie_D
17th August 2006, 13:45
Many thanks for your input Sir,

I have enjoyed this discussion and it is refreshing to speak with people from differing points of view.

Could you clarify something for me?

I was once told that in the 'old days' there were only three colours.

A novice was given a white belt. With time and training, this would get dirty and go brown. Eventually, it would get so dirty it would be black.

Is this the true origin of the black belt or wishful thinking to assist us in retention? Even if it's not true, the idea has helped some of my students...;-)

Thank you for your support. Structured debate is good. ;-)

Kind Regards

MikeWilliams
17th August 2006, 16:47
The belt thing is a myth, unfortunately.

The reality is far more prosaic. Kano started using white and black belts in Judo. Then much later Koizumi (another judoka) invented the coloured belt rankings after training in France, I believe - because he saw value in the belts as motivational tools, or as a way of structuring the syllabus. Other gendai arts then copied the judo system.

The "dirty belt" myth is a good story though (if a bit icky), and makes a nice parable for the whole "beginners mind" thing.

Prince Loeffler
17th August 2006, 19:02
Many thanks for your input Sir,

I have enjoyed this discussion and it is refreshing to speak with people from differing points of view.

Could you clarify something for me?

I was once told that in the 'old days' there were only three colours.

A novice was given a white belt. With time and training, this would get dirty and go brown. Eventually, it would get so dirty it would be black.

Is this the true origin of the black belt or wishful thinking to assist us in retention? Even if it's not true, the idea has helped some of my students...;-)

Thank you for your support. Structured debate is good. ;-)

Kind Regards


Mr. Diston,

It depends on the art. In the Okinawan karate, there was never a "belt" ranking system. The Okinawan karate-ka trained in their basicaly in their regular work clothes.

What's interesting ( Credit to Joe Yang) is that despite the Okinawan's attitude towards the importation of their art "tode" to the mainland Japan. They somehow decided to adopt the Japanese Dogi/Obi fashion.

One thing we should remember is that the Belt / Obi is probably less than 60 years old. It hardly qualifies as "Koryo" ... :)

joe yang
17th August 2006, 19:34
This thread seems to have resolved itself nicely. The move was appropriate. I hope the thread doesn't dissapear completely. It is a good example of how martial artists can disagree and debate in a civilized manor.

Trevor Johnson
17th August 2006, 23:02
Sorry Sir,

I don't mean to 'diss' the traditional arts; the fact that I don't feel so comfortable with them combatively does not mean that I think they have nothing to offer. On the contrary - I loved my time in Shotokan (loony instructor aside) and benefitted enormously in a wide variety of ways. The fact that I am not really discussing them here does not mean i'm not aware of them. ;-)


One thing I might mention is that Shotokan is rather new compared to many of the martial arts on here. Okinawan arts are older, as are the indiginous Japanese arts, which Shotokan is most definitely NOT. Jujutsu is one, from a variety of koryu, though BJJ is a more modern refinement of the original Kodokan Judo, not the original jujutsu. So, if you're talking about Shotokan, it's not exactly the most traditional of martial arts, and especially not of karates. Compare it to Okinawan Goju, for example, which might fit your criteria for combativeness a bit better.

Further, Shotokan's not the best of the karates out there, it lost a fair bit in the transmission from Okinawa to Japan, due to various reasons including WWII.


My point with all this blather is that Shotokan may not be the best example on which to base your comments on traditional martial arts.

mews
18th August 2006, 04:10
One thing I might mention is that Shotokan is rather new compared to many of the martial arts on here. Okinawan arts are older, as are the indiginous Japanese arts, which Shotokan is most definitely NOT. Jujutsu is one, from a variety of koryu, though BJJ is a more modern refinement of the original Kodokan Judo, not the original jujutsu. So, if you're talking about Shotokan, it's not exactly the most traditional of martial arts, and especially not of karates. Compare it to Okinawan Goju, for example, which might fit your criteria for combativeness a bit better.

Further, Shotokan's not the best of the karates out there, it lost a fair bit in the transmission from Okinawa to Japan, due to various reasons including WWII.


My point with all this blather is that Shotokan may not be the best example on which to base your comments on traditional martial arts.
----

I would add that I spent 5 years at about US$1,000 per year for shodan, supporting a large school that has space in mid-town Manhattan. That school has classes 7 days a week, morning, noon and evening during the week, and a good set of classes on Sat & Sun. What joy being bounced off the wall... it brings a tear to my eye and a ringing to my ears to remember it.

Then I kept going... and going, and going....

10,000 pounds for two years seems, even by New York standards, high.

The money-making aspect doesn't strictly bother me - we all gotta eat, and why shouldn't my teachers do OK in their chosen profession?

I think, from your description of your first teacher, that you are making your judgments based on a, well, really poor sample of one.

mew

Ed_morris
20th September 2006, 02:32
just read thru the thread and I was impressed (same as mentioned) by the civilty of discussion despite the disagreements.

this isn't directly pertinent, but it may add some credability (maybe, maybe not...your call) to the gentleman in question. {particularly, see the end of the story}
http://www.barnettimes.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.771394.0.cause_for_concern.php
or
http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthjustice/story/0,,1808781,00.html

one question though...isn't the "Black Belt leadership academy" part of ATA?

ichibyoshi
20th September 2006, 14:56
A very interesting thread has prompted some strong but hard to connect thoughts and feelings. Pardon me as I ramble...

I know that such large sums of money are not unusual in Japan when it comes to obtaining teaching licenses. Not just in budo circles but even in things like Japanese dance or Reiki. Kendo 8-dan too is fairly expensive. But in that situation if you were good enough to pass, you would do ANYTHING to raise the money to pay for your menjo! (...and the string of obligatory thank-you parties/gifts immediately following). (For those who do not know kendo, the number of 8-dan recipients since WWII is slightly more than 400. The number of people who have practiced kendo in that time must be well over 4,000,000).

Mr Diston's preference for being able to be himself in a technical sense, rather than sticking to tradition, is something that would have come along in time in traditional budo. The "ri" of "shuhari".

Also his dismissiveness of traditional arts does seem to be the result of him only having trained for such a short time. For me that is what sticks in my craw, charging so much money with so little experience.

He knows that the only way to get this by the traditional MA community is apparent transparency of intent. IOW that is part of his business plan.

His use of the title "Master" is disingenuous. He knows, as was shown in those two newspaper articles linked above, that the media (and people in general) will attach strongly to that word, a variety of strong and often quite personal meanings. Vulnerable people will immediately start to have visions of a possible "saviour". But ethically dubious as it is, "Master" is too powerful a selling concept to let slip by in favour of "Head Instructor".

Of course, as has been noted, no-one can stop him doing this, and why should we? Caveat emptor governs all transactions. But in the land of ignorance, confidence is king. Mr Diston certainly has plenty of that to be charging what he does after such a short apprenticeship.

Finally I think it right that he has received such a grilling here. This is, after all, nothing other than the market-place. Whereas the rest of the market-place is liable to accept whatever he claims to be true (and more), this little community will make him explain himself.

And for all his courage at answering the critics, I am still uneasy.

b

MarkF
20th September 2006, 21:33
The belt thing is a myth, unfortunately.

The reality is far more prosaic. Kano started using white and black belts in Judo. Then much later Koizumi (another judoka) invented the coloured belt rankings after training in France, I believe - because he saw value in the belts as motivational tools, or as a way of structuring the syllabus. Other gendai arts then copied the judo system.

The "dirty belt" myth is a good story though (if a bit icky), and makes a nice parable for the whole "beginners mind" thing.

Hi, Mike, et al

Pardon the correction, but I think you meant to write Kawaishi (Mikonosuke) and not Koizumi (Gunji)?

While the original reason for an obi at all, really was to hold your jacket closed (that and the attempt at making comfortable training clothes), the first introduction of a black obi was only to manage the ever-growing popularity of Kodokan Judo in Japan. Dan grades are thought to have been taken from other arts, such as chado, et. The whys of the color black isn't known for sure, but it did help to separate the yudansha from the mudansha.

The credit (blame?) for the multi-colored belts did belong to Europe, most likely France. That is a pretty good guess as early pictures of Kawaishi showing him wearing a red/white belt in the 1930s. They arrived sometime in the States some time in the 1950s. They were mainly for the younger ones, but adults did get a brown belt at 1-kyu. Early women's dan grades also have an interesting history at the Kodokan.

Anyway, if one is going to flat-out say s/he hates something, a little history is in order.

As to karate or tode, I leave that to Prince. Besides, in most karate dojo I've seen lately, half or more of the students are in shitagi and a tee, or sweat pants and a tee.




Mark

MikeWilliams
20th September 2006, 22:44
Hi, Mike, et al

Pardon the correction, but I think you meant to write Kawaishi (Mikonosuke) and not Koizumi (Gunji)?

Hi Mark,

You are right of course! That'll teach me to post off the cuff without checking first. :)

Ewok
31st October 2006, 03:07
Besides, in most karate dojo I've seen lately, half or more of the students are in shitagi and a tee, or sweat pants and a tee.

In their underwear!? Global warming must be having an impact then... :p
(although you would think so, shitagi is not the natural opposite to uwagi)

I wrote something, but really it comes down to I've never had to pay for training, and probably won't have to. My art discourages making profit for training and the instructors often outlay alot of money for doing something they love, not doing a job to put food on the table.