Don't talk, train.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Note: This topic is posted for general discussion and stems from observations made many years ago when this author was still training. It is not intended as criticism of anyone else, but feel free to recognise any similar feelings that you may have. Clearly, my position as non-training, sit-on-the-couch, stay-at-home, couch-potato armchair-kenshi might make some of you uncomfortable. I shall pre-empt any strikes by accepting all blows in advance. With that done, perhaps we can get some discussion going, hopefully with input from Kenshi with all different levels of experience.

Train.

Don’t talk.

After class is over, then talk.


I wish I spent more time training and less time thinking about it. More repetitions and less worrying about whether it was perfect yet.

Let Sensei tell me if I’m doing it wrong.

THIS IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE TRAINING METHOD

Discuss

[Texasmic]

I aggree with this.

There should not be a room full of teachers.

But, you should feel free to ask your instructor questions about things you don't understand.

As an instuctor of a very small group of people I find that I must train alone to get any real training in for myself, or with a group when I am with other yudansha. (where I keep my mouth shut except to ask questions) :)

[Prince Loeffler]

I think the term is:

Damatte Keiko ?

[satsukikorin]

There are reasons for kumite shutai.

Cooperation requires communication.

"Don't talk too much", and, "Shut up and train", are not quite the same.

Especially at the black belt level, we have to coach each other.

...Hmm, re-reading Texasmic's post... Alright, so you agree that it is okay to ask questions (and presumably to have them answered), and not only to the instructor. On the other hand, it is not okay to volunteer advice to all and sundry, and not okay to stand around thinking aloud about what you're doing or trying to do.

Perhaps we agree after all.

:)

[JamesD]

Suit Up
Line Up
Shut Up

And while I'm far from perfect on this--I am getting better, I think.

And it's showing in my training--well I hope at least.

[don]

Posting as an interloper here--I do aikido, not Shorinji--I couldn't resist the topic, it applies in aikido, too.

The teacher talks, we train.

Dojo --> training

Starbucks --> talking

I prefer not to talk at all on the mat. If someone asks me a question, I volunteer to work on it after class.

I dearly detest unsolicited suggestions. I am probably working on something other than the person is directing me to, and they have interupted my train of thought with at least the demand that I acknowledge their comment.

Rude.

Teacher talks, we train.

Thanks for the thread.

[Texasmic]

Posting as an interloper here--I do aikido, not Shorinji--I couldn't resist the topic, it applies in aikido, too.

The teacher talks, we train.

Dojo --> training

Starbucks --> talking

I prefer not to talk at all on the mat. If someone asks me a question, I volunteer to work on it after class.

I dearly detest unsolicited suggestions. I am probably working on something other than the person is directing me to, and they have interupted my train of thought with at least the demand that I acknowledge their comment.

Rude.

Teacher talks, we train.

Thanks for the thread.

Reminds me of the old song


"I don't want to hear another word,
Don't need your well thought out advice.
Though I thank you all for being kind,
I can make mistakes myself just fine."

[Gary Dolce]

Train.

Don’t talk.

After class is over, then talk.


I wish I spent more time training and less time thinking about it. More repetitions and less worrying about whether it was perfect yet.

Let Sensei tell me if I’m doing it wrong.

THIS IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE TRAINING METHOD

Discuss

Like most generalizations there is some truth here and some exaggeration.

A lot of talk during practice is a waste of time - Accounts of the previous night, accounts of just about anything outside of practice, long discourses on how to do technique by people other than the teacher, etc. Nobody should be just standing around talking during practice.

On the other hand, I have learned a lot from brief conversations with practice partners. When practicing a difficult technique, I don't hesitate to ask the person I am trying it on if he or she knows why it isn't working. Feedback from the person you are working with can often be the quickest way to understanding what you can't see or feel yourself.

You can waste a lot of time do repetitions incorrectly. In the end, I think a little time at the beginning spent doing "research" - playing with the technique, giving and receiving feedback from your partner, and then following up with your teacher is more productive than just doing it wrong until the teacher notices.

As a teacher, I encourage my students to provide feedback to each other. They need to learn to make it clear, concise, accurate, with full knowledge of their own limitations, and without ego. I think that's how they will learn to become teachers themselves eventually. As long as people are continuing to practice seriously, I see no reason to tell people to "shut up and train." Sometimes, I learn things from what my students say to each other.

I know this doesn't fit in to the view that a lot of people have about the way the martial arts should be taught, but it works for me.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Thank you Gary. Eloquent and persuasive, as ever.

[colin linz]

One of the great things about pair form practice from a technical standpoint is the ability to receive direct feedback from each other. This helps us establish if our techniques are effective or not. Talking does need to be managed, but it is a great tool to help not only our technical understanding but it also aids in forming relationships with kenshi, this is also one of Shorinji Kempo’s goals I believe.

When looking at the paintings from the Shaolin Temple that inspired Kaiso so much I get the impression that these monks are not only practicing, but also enjoying each other’s company. This can be hard to do in an atmosphere of “shut up and train”.

[Rob Gassin]

Posting as an interloper here--I do aikido, not Shorinji--I couldn't resist the topic, it applies in aikido, too.

The teacher talks, we train.

Dojo --> training

Starbucks --> talking



Just goes to prove that Shorinji Kempo is different from Aikido. For us it's:

Dojo --> training, talking

Bar --> drinking, talking

[sheb]

Dojo --> training, talking

Bar --> drinking, talking
rather the same in our dojo ... http://www.mainzelahr.de/smile/party/bier01.gif ... ;)

[Texasmic]

My Dad had a sign on the wall of his office that said

"There are two kinds of people who never get ahead;
Workers who don't think,
And Thinkers who don't work."

I think you can substitue talk for think.

:)