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david carvosso
19th August 2006, 08:59
Hi there,

Does anyone know of a cheap place (or any place for a start) to buy tatami mats for test cutting here in Australia.

Our dojo has nearly run out :(

Thanks,

David Carvosso

Ken-Hawaii
19th August 2006, 09:47
Being on another island, albeit quite a bit smaller, I can understand your problem, David. I worked with the people at http://www.tameshigiri.com & got the shipping price down to the merely awful from the horrible.

We've tried beach mats with very poor success, & most of our iaidoka aren't quite at the point where they can take advantage of the abundant bamboo that grows everywhere in Hawaii. So I would suggest contacting Dave Wilson <dave@tameshigiri.com> & see if he can ship you tatame omote via slow boat.

And of course make sure that you take many cuts on each roll :p :p !!

louroberto
19th August 2006, 16:00
hello, I purchase my mats from this company. I think th eprice is really cheap but to ship them where you are may be costly. Doesnt hurt to look into it though. Good luck.

http://www.seagullintl.com/content/17.htm

Ken-Hawaii
19th August 2006, 20:45
Those are beach mats, Lou, & don't have the same resistance or cutting "feel" as real tatame omote. They also contain a lot more silica, which can scratch your shinken's blade. There are thousands of free beach mats available here in Hawaii for almost nothing, but after trying them, no one uses them.

I don't recommend beach mats at all!

Maro
20th August 2006, 23:40
Unless you have contacts in Japan, it's extremely expensive to import them to Australia - the cost is mostly the container fees.

It's advisable to band together with other schools to try and spread the cost if at all possible.

Unskilled_Blade
21st August 2006, 00:07
Maybe try www.dragonsedge.com

Don't know if they do international shipping, though.

chrismoses
21st August 2006, 00:12
Maybe try www.dragonsedge.com

Don't know if they do international shipping, though.

Or have anything at all to do with JSA for that matter...

Maro
21st August 2006, 01:26
There is not much point importing New Tatami from the USA into Australia - with exchange rates and commission, it ends up way too expensive. To make it cost effective from Asia, you need to import at least 5000 mats.

See what I mean?

Even finding beach mat suppliers is hard here in Oz. They keep pretty quiet about who their supplier is. It's hard work!

Unskilled_Blade
21st August 2006, 03:04
Or have anything at all to do with JSA for that matter...
LOL! Whoaaaaaaa! I'm sorry about that one! It seems there a 2 sites with the same name:D This should work:
http://dragonsedge.biz/product_info.php/products_id/544

They sell the beach mats, too, but there most likely crappy.

pgsmith
21st August 2006, 19:08
Arik,
The "tatami" sold by that company are Bugei's wara. They are taller and much easier to cut than regular tatami. Besides that fact, tatami has nothing to do with bamboo (as that site professes) and the "real Samurai" did not use them for tameshigiri practice.

I make it a point to never buy anything from people that have no idea what they're talking about.

Maro
22nd August 2006, 00:07
Arik,
The "tatami" sold by that company are Bugei's wara. They are taller and much easier to cut than regular tatami. Besides that fact, tatami has nothing to do with bamboo (as that site professes) and the "real Samurai" did not use them for tameshigiri practice.


Hi Paul,

How much easier to cut are these? I've always heard that online. The wara we have from Japan is very hard to cut - nice and "Crisp".

We're still looking for a supplier here but it's hard. Most suppliers only carry the beach mats and even then, only the short ones.

It's not very economical to order from the USA.

chrismoses
22nd August 2006, 00:45
Hi Paul,

How much easier to cut are these? I've always heard that online. The wara we have from Japan is very hard to cut - nice and "Crisp".

We're still looking for a supplier here but it's hard. Most suppliers only carry the beach mats and even then, only the short ones.


A LOT. It's hard to equate, but I'd say that one tatami omote has about as much material as maybe 3 of the bugei wara. Even then it's not a direct comparison, because they just don't cut the same, you can roll up 2-3 of the bugei wara and do cuts like mizu-gaeshi easier than you could with a single roll of real tatami omote becuase of the added thickness (ie they stay put better). You might contact someone like tameshigiri.com to see who they buy from in Japan, it's not like you'll be cutting into their marketshare.

Maro
22nd August 2006, 01:21
A LOT. It's hard to equate, but I'd say that one tatami omote has about as much material as maybe 3 of the bugei wara. Even then it's not a direct comparison, because they just don't cut the same, you can roll up 2-3 of the bugei wara and do cuts like mizu-gaeshi easier than you could with a single roll of real tatami omote becuase of the added thickness (ie they stay put better). You might contact someone like tameshigiri.com to see who they buy from in Japan, it's not like you'll be cutting into their marketshare.

That's what I gathered. Coupled with hira zukhuri blades, no wonder the sword zips through the cut!

I will look into the Japanese suppliers. I have a friend who already import swords. I know he's had enquiries from other people also. A good niche market to start here.

Ken-Hawaii
22nd August 2006, 03:02
Does anyone have a good source for the igusa (or igusa seeds) that make up tatami omote? Doesn't look like it would be all that hard to grow a crop & stitch it together from what I see on the mats I have from Tameshigiri.com. Or it might be possible just to bundle & tie the igusa together without stitching, as all we're going to do is cut it, anyway. Has anyone tried this?

I just found an interesting chart on tameshigiri cutting materials at http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/articles.php:

Type Availability Density Cost

1) Wada (rice straw) Rare #10 free-$1.00 per target

2) Beach mats (flax) Moderate #9 $1.50-3.00 per mat

3) Wara (grass type) Moderate #9 $3-5.00 per mat

4) Omote (half mat) Excellent #8

5) Omote (grass) Excellent #5.5 - 6 $3.00 per mat

6) Goza (half mat) Moderate to poor #7

7) Goza (Igusa grass) Moderate to poor #4-5 $3-4.00 per mat

Maro
22nd August 2006, 04:06
You need to take the Colon off of the end of your link.

Ken-Hawaii
22nd August 2006, 09:31
Oops! Sorry about that.

The correct link is http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/articles.php

pgsmith
22nd August 2006, 17:16
Here's an article I did several years ago comparing them ... http://www.ejmas.com/tin/tinart_smith_1103.html

Tom Smyth
22nd August 2006, 21:23
Not to be a sword snob but the tatami that you buy from Mugendachi cuts very easy. The nice thing about it is it is consistant from one to the next.

But it is nothing like cutting used grungy sand ridden, sake soked good stuff from Japan that has been onthe floor for a few months or years.


Thats the real stuff. It has no forgiveness for improper technique...

Maro
22nd August 2006, 23:18
Not to be a sword snob but the tatami that you buy from Mugendachi cuts very easy. The nice thing about it is it is consistant from one to the next.

But it is nothing like cutting used grungy sand ridden, sake soked good stuff from Japan that has been onthe floor for a few months or years.


Thats the real stuff. It has no forgiveness for improper technique...

I concur - I also like the fact it's not consistent. There's nothing like having to use a little more power when you realise halfway through that the mat is tougher than you thought!

Neil Yamamoto
22nd August 2006, 23:22
Igusa is just a common rush plant, Juncus Effusus.
Want to buy seed, you can do that here:

http://vandusen.plantexplorers.com/product_info.php/products_id/251

You could probably find any rush plant similar and make use of it. I however, make no claims as to any knowledge of what other types of plants might do to a blade in chemical reactions to steel. Course, dried and then soaking it for tameshigiri would probably eliminate the risk of any such problems.

renfield_kuroda
23rd August 2006, 06:26
But it is nothing like cutting used grungy sand ridden, sake soked good stuff from Japan that has been onthe floor for a few months or years.
Thats the real stuff. It has no forgiveness for improper technique...Actually, the old grubby tatami omote that has been used on both sides, stomped, sat, and slept on, spilled, molded and beaten by toddlers, that's the best stuff to cut b/c all the fibers have been flattened and/or broken.
Now, brand spanking new Japanese tatami omotoe, bright green and smelling like fresh cut reeds, woven well and rolled up tight: that stuff is as unforgiving as wooden dowels!

Regards,

r e n

chrismoses
23rd August 2006, 15:54
Actually, the old grubby tatami omote that has been used on both sides, stomped, sat, and slept on, spilled, molded and beaten by toddlers, that's the best stuff to cut b/c all the fibers have been flattened and/or broken.
Now, brand spanking new Japanese tatami omotoe, bright green and smelling like fresh cut reeds, woven well and rolled up tight: that stuff is as unforgiving as wooden dowels!

Regards,

r e n

That's been my experience as well. Cutting spent tatmi omote in Japan was a lot easier (even with the cute little sword I got to use) than Mugen Dachi's fresh green tatami omote here. The stuff Bob Elder sells does seem very tough however, on par with the tameshigiri.com new stuff.

Erik Tracy
23rd August 2006, 16:48
Ren,
You were at the West Coast taikai - would you say that what Mugen Dachi is selling is the same as what you see for 'fresh' tatami omote?

I've gotten my hands on used stuff before - and the issue there for me is consistency. Yeah, some of the used mats are flimsy and soft, while others are as hard as concrete. Heck, I've seen used mats that we've actually dissected and pulled out nylon cord woven into the mat which makes them a b!tch to cut.

I've been to a couple of taikais where I could tell from my limited experience that the mats were as hard as concrete to cut (the faded yellow looking ones). And the judges knew too and for the sake of 'fairness' they changed out the mat for a different one.

This may be off tangent and something particular for me, but for a taikai the mats should be consistent - and new tatami is what I think offers a level playing field. Sure, cut the used older stuff if you want to save some bucks and practice on tougher targets (in general - cuz some are harder and some are softer). I personally don't care for them cuz they're nasty ;)

But that's just me.

Erik