Question regarding sword stance

[justin]

I have a question regarding a specific stance for holding the sword. I thought someone on this forum may be able to help me out. I am just looking for the Japanese name for the stance.

The stance is just like Chudan the middle position but the arms are straight out kind of pushing towards your opponent.

Does anyone know the name? I thought it was Iche No Kamae but I think I may be wrong.

Thank you for your assistance!

Justin Morris
www.thirdheaven.com

[Cebu]

You may be thinking of Seigan no Kamae. In my style at least it is very much like Chudan. It has slightly more extension away from the body and the tip is pointed towards the face or eyes.

[kakuma]

If the hands are relax and by your sides with with the sword tip pointing at the opponents eyes depending on which ryu-ha (system) you study the kamae is usually called seigan if the tip of the sword is lower pointing to your opponents middle area then it would be called chudan.

What you seem to be describing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the sword posture from from Togakure Ryu Bikenjutsu. This is called called Ichi no kamae. That seems to resemble your written description where the arms are straight.

[Neil Yamamoto]

I read this and out of curiousity, went to his website on the link provided in the post for the same reason. While there, I found this info. Scroll to the bottom of the page on the link. http://www.thirdheaven.com/weapons.html

Why do you need the name? Is it to add to the list of sword techniques you teach as part of "Traditional Japanese sword techniques" as you post on your site where it reads: The study of the Samurai Sword teaches tradtion, honor, and strength. Click here for soem of the Japanese sword terms.

The list that comes up reads:

Eight Basic Sword Cuts

1) Suburi Ipponme (first overhead cut)
2) Suburi Nihonme ( second overhead cut)
3) Suburi sanbanme (cut and move backwards)
4) Suburi Yonhonme (turn blade and thrust up)
5) Suburi gohonme (straight thrust)
6) 45 degree angle curt (down from kasumi)
7) Suburi schichiponme (side cut)
8) Suburi hachiponme ( rising cut)


Eight Basic Sword Guards

1) Chudan/Middle
2) Gedan/Lower
3) waki/side angle
4) Ushiro/straight back
5) Hasso/up angle
6) Inyo/straght up
7) Kasumi/temple
8) Jodan/upper

Now, based on what you have listed under the bio, how can you be teaching traditional Japanese swordsmenship? Mr. Morris, I'm not disputing your right to teach what you know, what I'm questioning is where you learned it and how is it traditional Japanese Swordsmanship?

In a crabby mood in my office doing paperwork...

[justin]

Thank you for your answers. I believe the posture I was looking for was Iche No Kamae. Thank you for the help. There are quite a few different people I have worked with in sword training my main study is BJJ and Thai Boxing but I have also trained under friends and students in traditional arts for over 20 years now. I have a sword class for kids and they love it. It teahces them self discipline, confidence and tradition. Mr. Yamamoto I appreciate your concern but I do not believe I have to answer to anyone in regards to my credentials.

Thanks guys,

Justin Morris
www.thirdheaven.com

[Neil Yamamoto]

Agreed, you don't need to answer, that pretty much answers my question anyway. Best of luck in your studies and teaching.

[pgsmith]

I have a sword class for kids and they love it. It teahces them self discipline, confidence and tradition.
OK, I have to speak up here.
Mr. Morris, you are absolutely correct in that you don't have to answer to anybody. However, I feel that a few questions should be considered, even if you don't answer them. First, you're teaching kids how to wield a deadly weapon who's only purpose thoughout history was to kill people. While they may love it, and it may make you money, it is not something that should be done unthinkingly. Second, you say that it teaches them self discipline, confidence, and tradition. I don't see how this can be since you obviously have not had the self discipline to learn a traditional sword art before trying to teach others, and you have not learned the traditions of a Japanese sword art to be able to pass on to them. You are making something up and hoping that you can get somewhere close to be able teach these things, but you really haven't a clue since you've not learned them yourself.

You can do all of the justification you like sir, but the facts remain.

[justin]

Mr. Smith you and Mr Yamamoto have no idea who I am, how I run my classes and how long I have studied the martial arts including sword arts. I have 20 years of training under my belt and in the last 11 years I have not taken one day off from learning and training. I asked a simple question regarding the name of a sword stance and I get flamed for it. This is why I dont visit this site very much. I sent Mr Yamamoto a PM regarding my history of sword training. That still wasnt enough for him but thats fine with me. Mr. Smith have you ever been to one of my kids classes? I didnt think so! So how do you know what I teach my kids?

Justin Morris

[gendzwil]

I asked a simple question regarding the name of a sword stance and I get flamed for it.The simple fact of the matter is that if you had a sensei, you could have just asked him. I conclude (as have others) that you are teaching yourself and then teaching others. That just doesn't sit well with any legitimate practisioner.

If you aren't teaching yourself, I apologise for jumping to conclusions.

[socho]

made up stuff is made up stuff. the names for specific stances depend on the style. The stances are different in different styles. Sounds to me like seigan, but what do I know. If it is made up stuff, you can call it whatever you want. trying to make it sound Japanese is usually a bad idea, and a tip-off that it is made-up stuff. It may work for the kids, but you can see what it has done to your credibility here. Suburi is not the name of a cut, suburi is swinging, usually an exercise. A cut is giri or kiri. Numbering the cuts can be another tip-off, especially if they are wrong. sanbonme, not 'ban', seven would normally be nana-, not shichi- (ordinal vs. cardinal? something like that), and eight would be happonme or hachihonme, the sound/letter is dependent on the ending it is attached to. Anyway, back to the point, if it is not a specific style, call it what you want. If it is, just ask within the context of that style. If is a mishmash of BJJ and other stuff, it is not traditional sword, samurai or otherwise. If, as you say, you haven't taken time off from learning, ask your teacher. Even sensei has a sensei, yes?

Dave

[gendzwil]

sanbonme, not 'ban', seven would normally be nana-, not shichi- (ordinal vs. cardinal? something like that)Might also be the same reason we don't have shidan or shichidan - "shi" sounds like the character for death.

[justin]

Not that I have to explain myself to any of you guys but...

I dont speak Japanese - English is hard enough for me LOL the notes on my site are like 9 years old and shouldnt even be on there. I am not the webmaster - I cant even remember how those got on there.

I dont have the time or the energy to actually make stuff up regarding the sword or anything else. My BJJ and Thai boxing curriclum is taught seperately of course from my weapons class. The only thing I have done differently in my Sword class is that I have actually sparred with Bokkens to see what would happen. I had an idea to film it and maybe make a DVD like the Dog brothers. I learned a lot from that training - I learned more in a few sparing matches then I did in any formal training.

My Aikido teacher lives 2 1/2 hours away. He is convieniently located 1 mile away from my inlaws house. I see him once a week and I take a 3-4 hour private lesson with him. We do a lot of sword training. Becuase of Labor day weekend I will not see him for 2 weeks but he may not have been able to answer that question for me becuase I learned that sword stance about 9 years ago from an instructor of the Genbukan dojo. That is why I asked you guys.

In the last 20 years I have worked with teachers under Hatsumi, Tanemura and now an Aikido instrutcor. One of my best friends in the martial arts is also an instructor in a Korean art that trains in the sword and he has shown me his curriculum. Admittedly I have also studied several videos and online courses only to help me at times when I could not get to an instructor and to give me ideas for how people of other styles train. Last year Century Martial Arts contacted me to film a DVD series on padded weapons as I have one of the fastest growing padded weapon classes in the country right now.

Out of 100 students I only have 2-3 people that train with me in the sword and all of them know I am not some sword master. In my kids class we have a weapons class for the older and more mature kids. This class is really gorwing!! We use padded weapons and every 2 months we train in a new weapon. The kids learn safety, how to hold the weapon, how to bow, the correct names of the parts of each weapon, basic movements, and weapon self defense. I you want to talk more about me please call me my number is on my website www.thirdheaven.com or stop by my place 114 Front street, Beaver Dam, WI 53916.

Justin Morris

(edited becuase I forgot to include my name)

[gendzwil]

So you've put together your own sword work based on a hodge-podge of waza that you've picked up from assorted instructors over the years. That's actually about typical for commercial schools of your type. So long as you're honest about it, I don't have a problem with it.

BTW you keep waving that 20 years of experience around like we're supposed to be amazed. There are any number of people around here with that level of experience and more, some of them training exclusively in Japanese sword arts. So we don't necessarily accept that it makes you particularily qualified to teach swordsmanship, especially when the bulk of your experience is in unarmed stuff.

[pgsmith]

Mr. Morris,
As I said in my original post, you don't have to answer to anybody. However, my original statements still stand. They are points that should be considered. As I also said in my original post, no amount of justification can change the facts.
This single statement ...
I learned more in a few sparing matches then I did in any formal training. assures me that my original statements are exactly on the money. If you had trained in a traditional sword art, you would understand me, and the statements I made, a lot better. Since you haven't, you should at least consider the questions posed in my original post rather than attempting to justify what you're doing to a bunch of strangers.

[justin]

Well I guess I dont understand Kenjutsu, Bikenjutsu and Aikido not being traditional arts. But this statement does sum me up...

"So you've put together your own sword work based on a hodge-podge of waza that you've picked up from assorted instructors over the years. That's actually about typical for commercial schools of your type. So long as you're honest about it, I don't have a problem with it."

I am very honest about that. If there was an instructor close to me I may not have gone that route but I did the best I could with what I had to work with. Dont make my school sound like some McDojo I have a alot of very good fighters at my school. I have trained and trained with UFC fighters and I have studied real hard in many traditional arts. I have made a life long study of the arts. Since this is a sword specific section of the forum I am sure I could learn a lot from most of you. I donnt deny that and I have not exagerated or made up any credentials regarding myself to you guys or to any of my students. All I wanted was a name of a stance and you guys helped me with it. I came here becuase I knew someone would be able to help me out.

Justin Morris

[chrismoses]

Well I guess I dont understand Kenjutsu, Bikenjutsu and Aikido not being traditional arts. But this statement does sum me up...


Kenjutsu can be part of or the focus of a traditional ryuha, but isn't a style per se. I have no idea what bikenjutsu is, so my gut tells me that's not traditional either, and Aikido is kind of on the fence too. People here have a beef with the word traditional. That implies a tradition, which it seems you don't have. You might look into the chambarra community, they are exploring a similar practice to what it sounds like you're doing and your questions and experiments would probably be welcome there. Sorry to be a pill, just trying to offer some explanation and other options.

[justin]

Christian,

Thank you for the reply. That actually makes a lot of sense and I do understand now where people on this site are comming from. I also apologize if I came off wrong to any of you. I will refrain from using the word "Traditional" in any of the arts that I teach.

Justin

[gendzwil]

According to a quick google, bikenjutsu is a term used by the genbukan and other ninpo organizations for some of their swordwork.

[chrismoses]

According to a quick google, bikenjutsu is a term used by the genbukan and other ninpo organizations for some of their swordwork.

Just did the same thing! ;) Anyone know where that comes from? I've never heard that term before.