Jack Robison and the Sagawa/Ueshiba issue

[Samurai Jack]

"The Martial Art of Aiki is Synonymous with the Way of Human Cultivation & Development"

Aiki is the harmonization of ki.
The entire universe sustains itself perfectly through harmonization. This harmony is aiki.
[Aiki] creates harmony without producing negative feelings or conflict because the ki of aiki is natural.
The harmony created by aiki must be a fundamental part of the foundation of human society.
This is known as the Global Harmony of Aiki (Aiki no Daienwa).
One should use the principle of aiki to harmonize with and de-escalate those threatening violence, and in the case where an enemy has already initiated an attack, rely completely on the principle of aiki to blend with or redirect their attack, which in turn produces a state of harmony.
We must seriously study (shugyo) the kihon (basics) - as well as the taijutsu (jujutsu), tachi no jutsu (swordsmanship), sojutsu (spearmanship), and bojutsu (staff techniques) - as passed down within the methods of aiki through its founder, Prince Shinra Saburo Minamoto Yoshimitsu, then strive to reach the Way found in the martial art of aiki (aiki no budo), which is synonymous with the Way of human cultivation and development (ningen shuyo).

Quoted so you don't have to scroll or hyperlink through to the thread and find what I am talking about.

I am confused can we say this is a pivotal statement of Y. Sagawa’s/Segawa (alt.sp) relationship or influence, possibly, Ueshiba had on Sagawa? This being so for sake of discussion can it be thought of that Sagawa is possibly mocking Ueshiba? What I mean is that Sagawa is pointing out that Ueshiba plagiarized Daito ryu, and Sagawa is demonstrating that the concepts proclaimed by Ueshiba (espoused in Ueshiba's Omote voice) are those truly of Daito ryu. Therefore, Sagawa is point to all of what Ueshiba claims is Daito ryu. I say this with the understanding that we are dealing with a translated text and as such there is a propensity for speculation, lost of context, and all the devices found in the Japanese language that don't translate.

We must keep in mind that Sagawa challenged anyone to defeat his waza, and if I am not mistaken was never defeated by anyone; an individual with strong personality out to best everyone or anyone. Integrate that T. Kimura was previously an Aikidoka who had a good understanding of Aikido’s philosophy, And the communial mal state of feeling Aikidoka's had in general toward Daito ryu; reference Aikido author John Stevens, back issues of Aikido Journal Stanley Pranin Editorial, and Aikiweb, etc. This may or may not have relevance directly concerning the those words of Sagawa, and when it those words where written, and posted in the dojo. But, it is printed in Kimura's book and not by accident. What is he's message and purpose?

Is the words hanging in Sagawa's dojo a point of mockery, a stab, at Ueshiba for what Sagawa seen as plagiarism. Or is it something else? Personally, with my limited understanding of Japanese language and everything else Japanese I ponder the hallowing words to be nothing more then shared universal tenets of Bu-do, I can't remove my pondering that there is something more behind the words, something greater, something more poignant, something more reveling that needs to be seen by Western mind.

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm sorry...I couldn't make heads or tails from that post. Can anyone help me out?

Thanks,
Ron

[Samurai Jack]

Oh, did I do it again? My fault. Let me rephrase it differently the best I can for you Ron.

Sagawa didn't like Ueshiba (established fact). Sagawa could kick booty on anyone even at 90 years old. Sagawa trash talk ( in a Japanese way ) and puts the throw down on Ueshiba, ruinin' his street cred. Ueshiba, Sagawa may have felt, dis'd for (plargiz'n) fly'n Daito ryu colors. Sagawa mocks Ueshiba with "The Martial Art of Aiki is Synonymous with the Way of Human Cultivation & Development" re-cooping the rights and property ( intellectually of course) of Daito ryu. Kimura furthers the rights and property of Daito ryu by printing "The Martial Art of Aiki is Synonymous with the Way of Human Cultivation & Development" in his book. Pretty much telling the world of Ueshiba's intellectual rights and property infraction. Kimura has an Aikido background, he knows well the philosophy and sayings of Ueshiba, and the Daito Ryu bashing of the past. Therefore, this may lend credibility to Kimura's support of Sagawa's action to establish the rights and property of Daito ryu, that Ueshiba used as his own- as Sagawa may have seen it. Of course, this is all said in a Western perspective. It would be interesting to see how the Japanese see this, and how it would match up. I think this is a big deal to the Japanese, otherwise a well educated and brilliant man like Kimura would have never published it. Lest us not forget the feud and its importance to so many between Kondo and T. Takeda's other students over intellectual rights and property.

Ron, this is the best I could do for ya bud. :)

[Ron Tisdale]

a) Thank you for the effort.

b) Using slang seems patronizing. But the second half of this last post was much clearer.

c) I think that sometimes we attempt to read way too much into this stuff.

d) I too would be interested in a "Japanese take" on some of these things. But I think we'll just have to continue to read between the lines for some time to come.

I'm also not sure that Ueshiba's 'street cred' was ever seriously impacted by Sagawa. Not that there weren't more than a couple shots taken at Ueshiba...I just don't think that in the end it mattered much.

Best,
Ron

[Samurai Jack]

This may not be much of a matter to us. But it was a matter enough for Kimura, a brilliant Professor, to place it in his book. Maybe what you point out as "cheap shots" are weighted much heavier by the Japanese, and much more serious in nature. I think so because of Kimura bringing it up and Sagawa hang that Aikido-like banner. There is a serious discussion here I think in how Japanese deal with things of this nature.

[Samurai Jack]

Sorry I was pulled away , I thought it was going to be for a long period, it wasn't. Therefore, I will finish my thought.

Look at the struggle between Kondo and T. Takeda's senior students for rights and property. Aikido Journal has tried to inform people about the Aikido and Daito ryu connection. Some say too much to the point of converting (or at least trying to) Aikidoka to that of Kondo's Daito ryu a strategic maneuver well known to the Japanese. If that isn't making sense figure that the larger the organization means the greater support, the greater support of public opinion and belief through association can establish rights and property. This is likened to the phenomena of rumor becoming perceived as fact. And it can be see as a means to unify a larger group to defeat an opposing group lesser in numbers.

What does this mean, well Kimura throws in a new angle which I am sure some are not happy about. He pretty much, in my opinion, establishes that if Ueshiba was unethical by plagiarizing Daito ryu. Thus, Aikido has no claim to the rights and property of Daito ryu, Aikido then if fraudulent by design putting Aikido in "bad budo" as we put it. Sagawa could be in a Japanese way calling Ueshiba a lair. Maybe Sagawa never like Ueshiba for this reason, it sure wasn't for how Ueshiba make cookies. If this is the case then the efforts by Aikido Journal and Editor Stan Pranin, and the support Kondo put behind Aikido and Aikido Journal were a waste of time. As I see, sort of, this pulls support away from Kondo possibly in terms of western support, as the greatest supporters for Kondo are Westerners in the US. Unlike the greatest supporters for T. Takeda's senior students are Europeans. It's a game of Go.

You see Kimura statement by print Sagawa's words is a strong one put in his book by design, or a reason, for a purpose. He didn't just put it in there to increase the number of pages in his book. The Japanese martial arts community is who Kimura is really speaking to. It is their opinion that matters, since it then ripples out to us Westerners in waves carrying the ear marks of Bad Budo.

The question then is how big of an impact will Sagawa words published by Kimura on the Japanese martial arts community in how they will view Aikido and Ueshiba as being a fraud.

[Ron Tisdale]

The question then is how big of an impact will Sagawa words published by Kimura on the Japanese martial arts community in how they will view Aikido and Ueshiba as being a fraud.

I think you put this in terms that are too black and white, when the subject doesn't lend itself to that. I don't think any in the Daito ryu community look at Ueshiba (or aikido as an art) as fraud. What is done, however, is to question just how much Ueshiba got of what S. Takeda taught, and how much of Daito ryu 'aiki' was passed down to Ueshiba's students. From what I have read, it is commonly acknowledged that Ueshiba 'got' quite a lot. But many experienced Daito ryu folk do seem to question any statements to the effect that Ueshiba was 'the best' at what he got. Sagawa, Kodo Horikawa and some others are often mentioned as being as good as or better than Ueshiba.

As an aikidoka, I think that these questions (when framed in this fashion) have a certain amount of merit. The aikido community has long had a kind of hero worship cult built around Ueshiba...and realistic counters to that mindset are valuable, in my opinion. But to call this fraud is disingenuous at best, and downright misleading at worst. I see no resemblance to the kooks and wanabees of bad budo, either. Ueshiba was clear about the fact that he changed things in creating his new art, he gave it a new name, and separated himself from his old teacher. If others still took offense, that's fine.

I do think the Ueshiba family and the Aikikai could have been more upfront early on about the strong roots in Daito ryu that aikido has. But their very close mouthed approach to that is a point against the fraud arguement, as it is not consistent with your premise that there was some kind of competition based on the shared roots.

What I think is more likely than the scenario you give above is that the Martial Arts Community in general will realize two things:

1) The value that Daito ryu has as a distinct art from aikido.

2) The realization that there is an often false seperation between the idea of do/jutsu i.e. do is somehow noble and uplifting and jutsu is somehow base, violent, and/or depraved.

I believe many in the Japanese MA community are already well aware of these things...obviously, in the western community...not so much.

Best,
Ron

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Yeah Jack, and in your world you probably think Elvis was the shooter on the grassy knoll.

Pointless speculation is well.......rather pointless.

MJ

[don]

.... As an aikidoka, I think that these questions (when framed in this fashion) have a certain amount of merit. The aikido community has long had a kind of hero worship cult built around Ueshiba...and realistic counters to that mindset are valuable, in my opinion. But to call this fraud is disingenuous at best, and downright misleading at worst. I see no resemblance to the kooks and wanabees of bad budo, either. Ueshiba was clear about the fact that he changed things in creating his new art, he gave it a new name, and separated himself from his old teacher. If others still took offense, that's fine....

Very fine post, Ron. Archival material, even!

[Samurai Jack]

I invoke a privilege of immunity, a disenfranchisement. And for those, whose hobby it is to fling cow patties at passing passenger busses from grassy knolls, I hate to ruin your fun, Elvis is not dead. :laugh:

Let's agree people it is speculation, but warranted. Kimura, did publish it. As most martial artists of the West who don't read Japanese nor understand the complexity of its language requires circumferres specere for all. Secondly, the political engagement between Kondo and his Sempei, and the Takeda family after T. Takeda's death is important to note. Because it has provided, yet another educational window into the Japanese martial arts' body politic. So, I don't think we are dealing with the stuff of "the X Files," or if "Big Foot" exists, but rather something more along the lines of re-examining our preconceived believes and perceptions of what we see as truth in the area where there is a mixture of religion and politics. For example, more along the lines of the validity of Joseph Smith's founded the Church of the LDS. Or the private life and deeds of Martin Luther founder of the Protestant Reformation of discussion. Mix that with the plagiarism and scandals of popular political advocates and voices like Bill O'Reilly. When those long held possibly incorrect perceptions are questioned it hits a nerve, like being told Santa Claus doesn't exist as a child. The point here that Sagawa and Kimura are calling foul, or in my opinion establishing the truth, setting the facts straight, with the validity of Aikido and Ueshiba. It is not up to me to walk the horse to water, nor to make it drink, but rather point to a trough.

We hear what we want to hear and listen to those who voice what we already support or believe. We refrain from leaving our comfort zones of belief to avoid discomfort of change and adjustment. In a defense we protest with extermes to discredit the viable and the reasonable. Yet, for those who question and take the change to venture beyond their comfort zones for the sake of truth that is bravery...errrr....enlightenment.

[Samurai Jack]

I think you put this in terms that are too black and white, when the subject doesn't lend itself to that. I don't think any in the Daito ryu community look at Ueshiba (or aikido as an art) as fraud. What is done, however, is to question just how much Ueshiba got of what S. Takeda taught, and how much of Daito ryu 'aiki' was passed down to Ueshiba's students. From what I have read, it is commonly acknowledged that Ueshiba 'got' quite a lot. But many experienced Daito ryu folk do seem to question any statements to the effect that Ueshiba was 'the best' at what he got. Sagawa, Kodo Horikawa and some others are often mentioned as being as good as or better than Ueshiba.


With previous post said, it may not now seem black and white. I do think Sagawa saw him as full of it. S.Takeda, was keen on him for claiming to be an instructor when he shouldn't have. I am sure Sagawa or Kimura are not the only people unhappy with Ueshiba and his actions ( which in my opinion lies in the heart of Japanese feudal politics). I am not bashing Ueshiba, just pointing out another view held by others. For instance, Kimura in his first book talked about how Sagawa disliked Ueshiba, and how Ueshiba used, I think 4 different, names for Aikido before it became Aikido. Those for names where I believe in question, that is leading toward being too similar to sounding like Daito ryu "aikijujtsu." I don't know what period of time Ueshiba did this, while Takada was alive or after his death. But, it seems to really anger Sagawa. I am sure there are other instances.

As for the ability of Ueshiba's skill matched up against those you mentioned it is arguable for some that Ueshiba was an equal. I find it difficult to say either way, as I let the experts speak on that. Though I factor in the fact that Ueshiba changed the original Daito ryu wazas based on his philosophy, and not on refinement as someone like Sagawa whose skill was the result of refinement/improvement of the original. Sagawa really got d' ammm good at Daito ryu, like the others you mentioned.

What Ueshiba got and did get, of course is always going to be a mystery. For one thing, Ueshiba changed Daito ryu to his Aikido, and that causes a problem. But there is a greater question that has been raised by those who know Ueshiba. Was Ueshiba making a move, or were his followers claiming he was the one to teach and perpetuate, the best one, the rightful heir to Daito Ryu skill which he called Aikido?

Concerning Ueshiba it may be or may not be fraud which can be argued, but the indication I see with all involved individuals is how Japanese budokas settle things in forms of dueling, dojo storming, etc. to establish the truth. FWIW. I tend to support the evidence given by Kimura in his book that indicates to me Sagawa was far superior in skill. What the truth is, well I am pointing to that trough.

[Ron Tisdale]

With previous post said, it may not now seem black and white. I do think Sagawa saw him as full of it.

Here again, you are jumping to a drastic conclusion...based on what evidence? Sagawa and Ueshiba were not best buds. I can see where someone could find evidence that Sagawa did not think Ueshiba lived up to his publicity. But 'full of it'? Common...the hyperbole is what kills most of your arguements.


S.Takeda, was keen on him for claiming to be an instructor when he shouldn't have.

If the 'him' you reference is Ueshiba, this statement is false. Takeda made him an instructor, was with him in many of the locations where he taught in the early days, gave Ueshiba the highest license available **at that time**, which is pretty darn close in content to the Hidden Mokoruku that was later given to others. Ueshiba had it hanging in the Kobukan dojo. Check with Stan Pranin on that. You mix half truths with false hoods like this all the time in your posts...so much so that it is difficult to correct them.


I am sure Sagawa or Kimura are not the only people unhappy with Ueshiba and his actions ( which in my opinion lies in the heart of Japanese feudal politics). I am not bashing Ueshiba, just pointing out another view held by others.

No, you are [mis-]parroting snippets of stuff from others, trying to twist it to match your own warped viewpoint, in language that is attrocious. You should stop while you're behind...


For instance, Kimura in his first book talked about how Sagawa disliked Ueshiba, and how Ueshiba used, I think 4 different, names for Aikido before it became Aikido. Those for names where I believe in question, that is leading toward being too similar to sounding like Daito ryu "aikijujtsu." I don't know what period of time Ueshiba did this, while Takada was alive or after his death.

BINGO...you don't know...because you haven't read the available resources, and you haven't understood what you did read.

snipped some more baseless speculation...


But there is a greater question that has been raised by those who know Ueshiba. Was Ueshiba making a move, or were his followers claiming he was the one to teach and perpetuate, the best one, the rightful heir to Daito Ryu skill which he called Aikido?

Again, you don't seem to have a grasp of the facts. Please quote ANYONE who claims that 'Ueshiba was the rightful heir to Daito ryu skill'.


What the truth is, well I am pointing to that trough.

See that star up there in the sky??? WHO CARES??

But don't worry...continue posting this tripe as you please...I just won't read it anymore, and you can have your pulpit.

Best,
Ron

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Let's agree people it is speculation, but warranted.

Jack,
This is where we differ greatly in opinion. Printing such speculation on a public forum with no real evidence to speak of is irresponsible at best and libel at worst. Not to mention the potential problems such discussions can cause. Shameless. Such discussions might be interesting over beers but really have no place, imo, in a public forum.

MJ

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Dan Harden]

Well balanced post and I agree with every word, Nathan.

It should be stated openly and fairly however, that several men have trained with the top men in Daito ryu and then touched Sagawa. Of the few who have done so they have openely stated that Sagawa's methods were in fact superior. Two have stated they were "far" superior. One fellow told me after half a life time of training in one VERY well known style, one known for its "Aiki" That he felt as if he knew nothing and had to start over. Which in fact, he did. One other fellow wrote about a similar experience here and on Aikido journal of his experiences with Kimura after he had trained in another well known DR and his considering Kimura (*read* as Sagawa's method) to be far superior.
We can add to that list the students of DR who have felt different methods, then Sagawa's, Aikido guys who went and felt him, a KSR menkyo, Gold medal Judokas and on and on. I have no iron in the fire, but Sagawas abilties, in and of themselves, and perhaps his methods (we will have to see what lives on) are at the top of anyones list of bodyskills.
And there is and was, a whole lot NOT being said. "In-house" knowledge and information frequently remains "in-house."
As Nathan said it is no secret however, that Sagawa himself considered his own skills far superior to other top level instructors of Daito ryu. To the point of even refusing to meet with or train one very well known Menkyo. One thing can be said about his cynical remarks. It seems no one who felt him, in comparison with others- disagreed with him much either.
Another note of interest was comparisons of his remarks with Takeda. Takeda had such low opinion of the state of Japanese budo that he openly insulted many top people as not "getting it" either. Were his summations of others skills accurate? Was Sagawa's? Most will never know. Arguing about it among the lesser lights and the many dim bulbs in Budo is rather pointless.
We should be, and need to be, unbiased in considering skills, but many never will be. Style affiliation rules.

Jack
There is a whole lot to read here about this very subject. Most guys are "talked-out" but read the archives here and on Aikido journal. There are perhaps twenty guys who have done most of the writing, but there is a wealth of information there anyway. The informationt offers personal views, written research, and shihan level teacher support of information offered by some of the students. Relaxe a little, poor a drink and review. You have the time. Think of it like going to the library.

Cheers
Dan

[Samurai Jack]

Nathan,

Maybe some individuals should pull back on their emotional horse and carriage, letting it rest in the stable. I simply proposed a theory based on limited information, hoping to find a bright light to shine a means of truth. I don't find anyone who responded to be a Daito ryu person who could objectively or not provide a deeper understanding of words that are seemingly out of character for some one such as Segawa, published his top student Kimura who again I state was an Aikidoka, a brillant minded professor of many outstanding published works and awards in his field which we all are dim bulbs in comparison. And, I have yet to mention his skill, which we all "suck" in comparison. I think that in itself warrants credibility and investigation. Let us couple that with the fact both men didn't like Ueshiba, why? Well, there is some evidence which points to Ueshiba misrepresenting himself. I realize such a statement doesn't not go over well with the Ophra type crowd. Therefore, any type of analytical discussion or debate is seen as a threat and thus, thwarted. The huddle is because so many believe in the Sainthood given to Ueshiba, they rather not see the reality of him being human. As Mr. Tinsdale pointed out, Aikido suffers from earmarks of a cult. I tend it to call it more like the Ophra syndrome, this is not in insult. Rather a group of like minded individuals supporting one person to immeasurable heights of popularity. Therefore, the true life of the person are obscured. As a result then debate is replaced with personal attack tactics as a means to insure the rose colored glasses stay on; that such people don’t have their belief system upset and feel foolish, etc.



I apologize to all those who responded and felt upset in anyway. It is my fault. I should have known better to have posted such a topic somewhere else where the forum name is more accurate. As a previous lurker I should have just kept all of it to myself. No hard feelings anyone, I understand this is a difficult topic for so many.

Nathan, btw, I wasn't aware you where aslo an Aikidoka, I assumed you where not because you are the moderator for this forum. Again my appologizes for ruffling feathers, I will tread lightly in the future when mentioning Ueshiba. Warning heeded, my friend.

[Samurai Jack]

Jack,
This is where we differ greatly in opinion. Printing such speculation on a public forum with no real evidence to speak of is irresponsible at best and libel at worst. Not to mention the potential problems such discussions can cause. Shameless. Such discussions might be interesting over beers but really have no place, imo, in a public forum.

MJ

You bring up a good point. I can't tell you how many thousands of threads I read which fit your words. Look at Denora, Lovert (sp- can't think of the proper spelling) and others put on "fraud lists" that generated so many of the same types of threads you mentioned. Boy am I glad that type of thing doesn't happen here, am sure your not guilty of such ugly things yourself. Therefore, I will take your words to heart. Thanks for pointing that out, I think you saved me from a big headache.

In budo,

:)

[Samurai Jack]

Arguing about it among the lesser lights and the many dim bulbs in Budo is rather pointless.
We should be, and need to be, unbiased in considering skills, but many never will be. Style affiliation rules.
Cheers
Dan

Your first sentence is an umbrella; it covers most of everyone on the net. I don't take such a statement personally, as that is a truth in the nature of human beings. Those of us, 99.99% of us, are as you put it lesser lights. Sadly, some of us just don't want to do it or are able to realize it. Therefore, in agreement such discussions, as this one, are elementary in nature. Understanding the validity and importance of such discussions, if participants rein in their emotions, is to examine the widely held beliefs of the masses of lesser lights which support the greater lights. Therefore, I would say discussions by the lesser lights are on target. We must examine our beliefs, we must search for the truth, to eventually find our way out of the darkness, and to being greater lights who don't hide the truth. The nature of martial arts is to improve, and if we make the change from lesser to greater lights, we are lessening the darkness and depentance on those above us to inform us of their truth. We are, therefore, we are not depending on the oral traditions to those bodies of which you point out in your second sentence. Such an act of depentancy, as I see it is blind allegence of the rank and file to believe what we are told as it is told without question. Then when called into action with arms, we are not to question what we are told to think and believe. We subscribe ackwordly to the Japanese idea the "nail sticking up is pounded down." Therefore, there is a great significate factor in the lesser lights having discussion. Unfortuantly, for some it is very difficult to have discussions that question what they have been told, as it threatens their very soul; it is understandable. As no one wants to believe they have been had (lied to, trusting etc). It is human, it is understandable, and unfortunate.

[kenkyusha]

You bring up a good point. I can't tell you how many thousands of threads I read which fit your words. Look at Denora, Lovert (sp- can't think of the proper spelling) and others put on "fraud lists" that generated so many of the same types of threads you mentioned.
These are folks with a demonstrated history of using 'rank' acquired through less than scrupulous means... that coupled with the fact that they are alive, and can, if so inclined, respond to questions posed seems to change the tenor of the thing a bit, ne?

Be well,
Jigme

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Samurai Jack]

Nathan,

Thank you. If I may, I find the idea that Sagawa and Kimura are pointing out they disliked Ueshiba. In Kimura's books Ueshiba is not put in a good light. The manner in which Kimura writes about Ueshiba, I feel, is directed to the Japanese audience indicating Ueshiba's (to cut it with water a bit) infractions upon protocol and behavior. Basically, saying Ueshiba infringed upon intellectual rights and property of Daito ryu. In a Japanese way, and am not sure, but guessing, the words of Sagawa being discussed might indicate Ueshiba's infraction in a Japanese way.

I personally believe Ueshiba, when Takeda was a live, was teaching without authorization and representation from Takeda. I believe Kimura being an Aikidoka and then becoming the top student of Sagawa had an unique opportunity, that doesn't need to be explained. Therefore, if Kimura, didn't like Ueshiba it is for very good reason. Again, Kimura is well educated and a genius; I would guess his I.Q. would be some where in the range of 190. There isn't a wool you could pull over his eyes. I am sure Sagawa wasn't a touchy feely powder puff type of Sensei that is clear in Kimura's books. Sagawa was a serious and dedicated martial artists, I don't think things just where said without thought beforehand. I would bet he choose his words carefully, as tradition dictated. I would say this goes for Kimura as well.

Therefore, I conclude, the words hanging in Sagawa's dojo isn't a feel good warm and fuzzy left over from an era gone by. Being Japanese, Sagawa put it up for a reason. Being Japanese, Kimura put it in his book for a reason. I subscribe to the idea that it is to indicate that Ueshiba wasn't a Saint. That Ueshiba committed an infractions against the protocol of Daito Ryu of which Sagawa once headed, prior to T. Takeda. One of which Ueshiba was the plagiarizing ideas from Daito ryu of which Segawa hung on his wall, which Kimura published- for all to see- publicly. I see both author's as setting the record straight and claiming back intellectually rights and property from some who didn't give credit where credit is due, and claimed it (without proper citation) his own.

I feel this is a very major point that the forum like this could address without the emotional horse and carriage attached responses (which are understandable), resulting in liberated and intelligent discussing. This is my goal, it is not to tell people that Santa Clause doesn't exist, and mock them for it. Rather, the goal is the origin of why we believe Santa Clause they way we have been told. To allow for other possibilities and thoughts, and not be caught in a vaccum.

I hope, I have taken a different feel as you recommended, Nathan. I realize at times it is difficult to discern a good debate topic from trolling. Let me assure you and the forum my intention is for debate. And from debate to further my knowledge and research; to bust those myths and find truth as uncomfortable or shocking it may seem at first.

I am taking a respite form this forum for now to gather my thoughts and to search deeper into the possibilities I've proposed to the forum. So that when I post again, I shall have a better understanding of the subject at hand; in order next time to contribute more effectively to the forum.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

[George Kohler]

I personally believe Ueshiba, when Takeda was a live, was teaching without authorization and representation from Takeda.

How can this be if Ueshiba was given "Kyoju Dairi"? Doesn't this mean "Teaching assistant"? the translation of Ueshiba's kyoju dairi reads:


Instructor Certification Morihei Ueshiba

1. When accepting students for instruction in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu be careful to choose persons of good conduct.
2. When instructing students, have them write their address, name, age, location of their dojo, and the terms of their instruction in a registration book together with their seal by way of authentification.
3. When instructing students, an initial payment of three yen should be made to Takeda Dai Sensei as an enrollment fee.

16 September 1922

[DDATFUS]

I just don't see how you can say that Ueshiba Sensei was teaching without authorization. For a long time, he was teaching with direct, written permission from Sokaku Takeda. Once he branched off on his own, he might have called his art many things, but he never again called it Daito Ryu (to the best of my knowledge). Not only did he change the name, but he changed the art itself. I lack the background to understand the differences, but the people on this forum who would know have made it very clear that aikido and Daito Ryu, whatever techniques they may share, are very different in important ways. Once he started his own thing, he didn't need authorization from anyone; he rose and fell strictly based on his own merit and reputation.

Regarding the notice that Sagawa Sensei put up on his wall, isn't it possible that he put those principles up because he felt them to be fundamental to Daito Ryu, and for no other reason? Occam's razor seems to say so.

[Samurai Jack]

How can this be if Ueshiba was given "Kyoju Dairi"? Doesn't this mean "Teaching assistant"? the translation of Ueshiba's kyoju dairi reads:

I guess, I held too close to the law of lex parsimoniae previously when discussing Ueshiba possible infraction. I feel I own an explanation. As I understand it, the above is true. To put it in general plain terms, it was more like a undergraduate teaching assistant telling the class he is the professor; the TA proclaiming he is the expert in the field.

In terms of what a Kyoju Dairi meant to S. Takeda when awarded, I will say is a lot different then today when everyone is a Shi-han, 10th degree, no... 11th degree in their own art, self awarded. Where everyone is the expert at 19 years old, or after a couple of seminars with an expert. Even in Daito ryu I am sure the weight of rank has inflated for better or worse. Point is S. Takeda being who he was, I can surmise, he may have given far less latitude to Kyoju Dairi then what is given to day. We must incorporate that S. Takeda was secretive, picky, stringent, demanding, scrutinizing, detailed, and cautious to say the least, per his station. Out of the 3000+ people, he exposed Daito ryu too less than the fingers on your one hand (thumb excluded) were the number of people who got Menkyo kaiden. I would risk saying that Kyoju Dairi license was a very limited and restricted license. I don’t think it gives the liberal power or authority as we see today in general in all martial arts. S. Takeda was really controlling and conservative as tradition dictated, as a person who lived a military life. I think because we see martial arts as an art, because of our society and times we live in, we often lose touch with the martial aspects and culture that govern or have governed. Ueshiba over stepped his bounds, as another way of putting it in a Japanese military way in the time of which T. Sokaku’s positioned, or fashioned himself. Sagawa followed that vein. .

Therefore, the contention is not the award, but rather how it was exercised. In this case it may have been exercised improperly outside the protocal of the time. We are not talking about Ueshiba being a shodan and teaching, I am saying it was Ueshiba braking the rules, and thus improperly positioning(taking credit for something that wasn't his to take credit for) himself. What we see is the early intentions of Ueshiba's intentions, later action and formulations of his art of Aikido. Which Sagawa noted he used 4 other names, far too similar in terms of the Japanese language to Daito ryu Aikijujutsu. Rather then using, Ueshiba using a name that is clear demarcation for his art; instead of his style of Daito ryu.

[Samurai Jack]

Regarding the notice that Sagawa Sensei put up on his wall, isn't it possible that he put those principles up because he felt them to be fundamental to Daito Ryu, and for no other reason? Occam's razor seems to say so.

Could be. It could be also that is what Ueshiba used to forumulate his philosophy instead on the principle of Omote which is credited.

Until Kimura published those words, the general public and the Aikido community where unaware of them. It is only those who trained with Segawa who read them, and that ain't alot of people.

Per "Occum's Razor" applying to the unity of martial art philosophy, where similarities are recognized. I don't think Reductionism allows for individuals getting credit for fathering something they didn't, nor do the Japanese. Cutting through the crap and b.S. is Occum's Razor applied. :)

[Ron Tisdale]

Out of the 3000+ people, he exposed Daito ryu too less than the fingers on your one hand (thumb excluded) were the number of people who got Menkyo kaiden. I would risk saying that Kyoju Dairi license was a very limited and restricted license. I don’t think it gives the liberal power or authority as we see today in general in all martial arts.

You do know that the Menkyo Kaiden did not exist in Daito ryu at the time that Ueshiba was given the Kyoju Dairi, right? You do know that the difference between the license Ueshiba had posted in the Kobukan dojo and the Menkyo Kaiden is about 80 techniques, right? At the time it was given, it was the highest license given in Daito ryu. After about 5 years of training, some of that while living with his instructor. What are you basing your conclusion of it being a limited license on? Where is the evidence?

You do also know that S.T. took certain "liberties" himself as regards these diplomas and the history of his system, right? If he was so conservative himself, how can those things be accounted for?


Therefore, the contention is not the award, but rather how it was exercised. In this case it may have been exercised improperly outside the protocal of the time.

May have been? What evidence of this do you have? None has been given so far.


What we see is the early intentions of Ueshiba's intentions, later action and formulations of his art of Aikido. Which Sagawa noted he used 4 other names, far too similar in terms of the Japanese language to Daito ryu Aikijujutsu.
Where did Sagawa note this? Post the document...

Best,
Ron

[Samurai Jack]

George, FWIW,

Maybe it could be said, the rank went to Ueshiba's head, and over stepped his bounds and authority. Or like many Japanese, especially of that time, Ueshiba was planning for the future. Possibly, it was his intent and manner in which he executed his plan that was a no-no. That is taking the reins too fast, too early, too boldly, or simply taking reins which are not yours to take, period. Maybe the riff that existed between T.Sokaku and Ueshiba was really, a contention of philosophy of the times. For the pedant Aikido readers, you may want to stop reading now. One man of a dying era fighting to preserve it, and another pushing in a new era of change for himself. Ueshiba couldn't compete with T. Sokaku at any level. Now let’s assume Ueshiba's infraction was an act of rebellion toward the old ways. This also added in his plan for find (ironically) fame in the martial arts. Per, his goal (plainly displayed in Ueshiba's later years), Ueshiba needed to establish himself and credibility. He found that opportunity when allow to instruct Daito ryu. A very successful and feudal Japanese strategy, that is Japanese as Sushi. Therefore, while instructing Daito ryu students he was establishing himself and laying seeds for his future, again as Japanese as Sushi. A big no..no..to get caught. The nail that was sticking up, was Ueshiba.

As a support, I have spoke to a person who studies a strict koryu, he told be he was kicked out another koryu because he was teaching when he shouldn't have. In his defense, he said he was unaware of such a rule. Here applies the unity, the commonality of Japanese martial arts protocal etc.

Is Ueshiba a fraud, or just confusing the two arts for his benefit? Sagawa might have thought both, I wish I could have asked him. Kimura isn't happy with Ueshiba either ( I trying hard to keep this from being a real good example of thread drift), but we have to examine the reason and purpose for Sagawa and Kimura's dislike of Ueshiba, if we are to really look at Daito ryu seriously, otherwise we could be looking at Aikido instead of Daito ryu. If that is the case then Daito ryu goes the way of the Dodo bird. Japanese are a subtle people unlike us in the West, indirectness speaks louder then being direct, subtle like a wall hanging that echoes Ueshiba's voice, rather than a formal debate. I don't think Sagawa's actios were based on act of "just because..." Nor Kimura pubishing it. ( repeating, just to save the thread from drifting off into space). :)

[DDATFUS]

It could be also that is what Ueshiba used to forumulate his philosophy instead on the principle of Omote which is credited.

Sure. That is quite possible. There seems to be plenty of evidence to suggest that Ueshiba Sensei didn't want to give much credit to Takeda for the evolution of aikido. I don't think anyone really knows the full story of why the two of them fell out, but I think that it is clear that Ueshiba wanted to distance himself from his former teacher.

Still, I can think of a lot of other possibilities as well. Maybe these precepts are part of the traditional teachings of Daito Ryu, but Ueshiba didn't really fully understand them until he started practicing Omote. Perhaps Omote added a whole new dimension of understanding to how he viewed these precepts. I've heard that Takeda Sokaku could be rather violent at times. Perhaps Ueshiba Sensei had heard these rules, but had never seen them practiced in the life of his sensei, but the Omote religion brought these precepts to life for him.

Another possibility stems from the fact that Ueshiba Sensei's philosophy seemed extremely complex. In English, you read about love and harmony. But he seems to have spent much of his time talking about cosmic ki energy, universal spirit, etc, etc. I think that the precepts of harmony as listed on Sagawa's wall might have only been the tip of the iceberg that was O Sensei's worldview. Perhaps he saw Daito Ryu as the inspiration for 10% of his thought, and Omote as the origin of the other 90%, the really esoteric stuff. Who knows? We could speculate and throw out theories all day. I don't see any reason to believe that Sagawa was taking a dig at Ueshiba. Maybe he was. Maybe he heard some arrogant aikido crank criticize Daito Ryu for not having a spiritual/ethical dimension and posted that to prove them wrong. One possibility seems just as likely as the other.



Maybe it could be said, the rank went to Ueshiba's head, and over stepped his bounds and authority. Or like many Japanese, especially of that time, Ueshiba was planning for the future. Possibly, it was his intent and manner in which he executed his plan that was a no-no. That is taking the reins too fast, too early, too boldly, or simply taking reins which are not yours to take, period. Maybe the riff that existed between T.Sokaku and Ueshiba was really, a contention of philosophy of the times.

This is what we call rampant speculation. Maybe what you say is true. Maybe Ueshiba spilled coffee on Takeda's lap, Takeda got angry, and the two never spoke to each other again. Without anything to back up your theories, they have no weight.


Is Ueshiba a fraud, or just confusing the two arts for his benefit? Sagawa might have thought both, I wish I could have asked him. But you didn't ask him. So we don't know. Maybe he didn't think that. You are just guessing, really.



Kimura isn't happy with Ueshiba either ( I trying hard to keep this from being a real good example of thread drift), but we have to examine the reason and purpose for Sagawa and Kimura's dislike of Ueshiba,

We don't know the purpose for their dislike of Ueshiba. Maybe they think he is a fraud. Maybe they don't. We don't have enough information to speculate. There is nothing to examine. Now, if you asked Kimura Sensei, you might get somewhere. As it is, you are just pulling things out of thin air, picking the symptoms that best match the theories that you already have. I find that, rather than making the facts fit my theories, sometimes it is better to hold my peace until I can get more facts.

[Kendoguy9]

Hi Jack et al,

When I first read Nathan's translation I too was amazed at how "Ueshiba-esque" it was. However I do not believe you should read too much into it. The scroll was filled with Neo-Confucianisms ("The entire universe sustains itself perfectly through harmonization. This harmony is aiki.
[Aiki] creates harmony without producing negative feelings or conflict because the ki of aiki is natural." replace harmony with original source and aiki with in-yo), and even maybe an elemt of State Shintoism ("This is known as the Global Harmony of Aiki (Aiki no Daienwa)." I personally read into this leftover remnants of "Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere," I could be wrong). These are classic models of Japanese thought of the time. If you read the heiho doka of many masters of the time they are filled with this sort of language and concepts, and it is certainly not unique to Ueshiba or Sagawa senseis. I think both men were classical Japanese gentlemen with a strong interest in Yamatodashii, and their respective works show this. Nothing more, nothing less. What is interesting is how different branches or the same ryu (ha batsu I guess you could call them?) still view the world in a similar way. I have met people from different branches of ryu I practice and we tend to have a simillar world view (at least as far as budo is concerned).

As for Ueshiba sensei (I am not an aikidoka I am a Daito-ryu aikijujutsuka), he was one of the highest ranked and most talented of Sokaku sensei's students. Mr. Pranin over at Aikidojournal has shown that Ueshiba might have had some of the most prolonged contact with Sokaku of any of Sokaku's students. As Ron has stated Ueshiba was given the Kaishaku Soden which was the highest rank Sokaku gave out, until 1939 when he invented the Menkyo Kaiden. Some people say to bring the ryu more in line with other popular ryu whose highest rank was a menkyo kaiden. When Ueshiba broke away from Sokaku he held the highest rank in the art. That and the kyojudairi make him a very highly regarded Daito-ryu sensei. I have very mixed feelings about Ueshiba and aikido, but I cannot ignore these facts. It would be insulting to Daito-ryu however to discredit Ueshiba completely because that discredits Sokaku sensei's judgement as well.

Just my thoughts, take them with a grain of salt,

[Ron Tisdale]

Nice post Chris.

Oh --

Omote -- front

Omoto Kyo -- the "new religeon" that Ueshiba practiced and that played a large roll in his development of aikido.

Mistaking one for the other is one of the recurrent problems in this thread. It is also one of the reasons why it is so hard to read and understand Jack's posts.

Best,
Ron

[Jose Garrido]

Chris,
Thank-you for your response on this matter from the point of view of an Aikijujutsuka. It was very well written.

Jose Garrido

[DDATFUS]

Oh --

Omote -- front

Omoto Kyo -- the "new religeon" that Ueshiba practiced and that played a large roll in his development of aikido.

Mistaking one for the other is one of the recurrent problems in this thread.


Oops... sorry. :o

[Kendoguy9]

Hey everyone,

Just a quick follow up. I was re-reading Dr. Friday's "Legacies of the Sword" (great book if you don't own it you should) last night. On page 177 there is a translation of a Menkyo writen by Kunii Zen'ya sensei. The last paragraph sounded a lot like Sagawa's and Ueshiba's writings, only replace aiki with Kashima Shin-ryu. There was talk of becoming one with the universe, etc. I don't have the book here at work, so I can't quote it. If memory serves Kunii sensei didn't like aikido (or any other martial art I think, Dr. Friday are you out there to clarify?), so the fact that his writings echo Ueshiba and Sagawa just reinforce the fact that there is no dig towards Ueshiba. I'm sorry to belabor this point.

[Ron Tisdale]

No need to appologize Chris, we all get it...but apparently it does need to be repeated.

Best,
Ron

[Samurai Jack]

Enlightening responses from all, I sense this thread is now on a caffeine rush. I am just wondering if there is going to be any more responses in support of Ueshiba, and any in support of Sagawa and Kimura.

I would love to speak with Kimura about this. I was thinking, sometime ago, asking him about his first book being published in English. It is a monumental task for a Professor of Science (Math) of his status and caliber, being very sympathetic, I resigned that notion.

I now personally think at this time it is too difficult to discuss Segawa on Ueshiba. The strong persistent pedant view of Ueshiba is too difficult to get past in order to discuss objectively, or to examine. The other impedance is political machine, among other things.

As I see it, it stands now, that Ueshiba is not a man to be examined, much
like other religious figures are prevented, as it is blasphemy in the eyes of some. I will respect that. But, I don't agree with it. The Framers (being men of Science and Knowledge) of this country thought it very important to have free speech, and thus we are able to examine the President in deepth without going to jail or being killed for it, unlike other countries we see today. We as American's can examine Christ without fear of being killed by a religious mob ( thought I think some would like too :), unlike similar religions to Christanity who would kill you in a heart beat if you dare examine their religious figure or leader, muchless show a picture of him.

Maybe in time, we can discuss this topic and examine more deeply into the truth. Maybe the horse and carrriage of emotion and politics will wane and an open discussion will proceed. Or when everyone is off the Starbucks... :)

Best of training.

[kokumo]

Hey everyone,

Just a quick follow up. I was re-reading Dr. Friday's "Legacies of the Sword" (great book if you don't own it you should) last night. On page 177 there is a translation of a Menkyo writen by Kunii Zen'ya sensei. The last paragraph sounded a lot like Sagawa's and Ueshiba's writings, only replace aiki with Kashima Shin-ryu. There was talk of becoming one with the universe, etc. I don't have the book here at work, so I can't quote it. If memory serves Kunii sensei didn't like aikido (or any other martial art I think, Dr. Friday are you out there to clarify?), so the fact that his writings echo Ueshiba and Sagawa just reinforce the fact that there is no dig towards Ueshiba. I'm sorry to belabor this point.

It's a good point to belabor.

At the risk of making a broad generalization, East Asian philosophical, artistic, and literary culture tends toward respect for precedent, whereas Occidental philosophical, artistic, and literary culture tends toward respect for innovation.

The result is that often, in East Asia culture, all the players agree on the words but argue about who has the correct view or the real understanding.

Conversely, in Occidental culture, all the players have pretty much the same view but argue about whose words have expressed it best.

What would be strange is if there was some strikingly original text on the wall at someone's dojo that rose above bland Hallmark-card level platitudes.

The text doesn't tell you anything. Each teacher will tell his students, and only his students, what the text "really means," and will also tell his students that those other guys don't have a clue what the text "really means."

And to the extent that "what it really means" defines the parameters of the school in which a student has enrolled, the teacher is absolutely correct.

Beyond that? Case by case.....

[Kendoguy9]

Jack et al,

I think this thread has drifted away from your original point about the scroll.

"Maybe in time, we can discuss this topic and examine more deeply into the truth. Maybe the horse and carrriage of emotion and politics will wane and an open discussion will proceed."

I have no doubt that Sagawa did not like Ueshiba. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure there are many people who didn't like Ueshiba. I haven't read Kimura's book but I understand it quotes Sagawa as saying he didn't have a high opinion of Ueshiba. And you won't get any arguements from me about him being a mortal. I don't think he was as talented as his teacher Sokaku. I've read stories that Ueshiba cried the first time Sokaku put his hands on him (this might be from Sagawa)! What is it you are trying to prove? That Sagawa didn't like Ueshiba? I think it is already done. That Kimura has a low opinion of Ueshiba? Never read his book, but if he takes his teacher opinion then he probably doesn't like him. That he is not the most talented of Sokaku's students? I would believe that Sagawa, Yoshida, Hisa, Horikawa were as talented if not more so. There is no way to tell, they are all dead.

"The strong persistent pedant view of Ueshiba is too difficult to get past in order to discuss objectively, or to examine. The other impedance is political machine, among other things. "

Well lets look at the facts objectively. Ueshiba had enough talent to get the highest ranking scroll in the ryu Kaishaku soden and a teaching cert. kyojudairi. He had prolonged exposure to Sokaku, see aikidojournal for more information. Those are the facts about him in Daito-ryu. No politics just fact.

Was he more or less talented then Sagawa? Both are dead so I'll never know. Was Sagawa making a jab at Ueshiba with a scroll hanging on his dojo wall? Doubtful for the reasons expressed in my previous posts. Was Ueshiba stealing intellectual properties from Daito-ryu? Again see my previous posts. Whatever Sagawa thought of Ueshiba, like it or not, he did make it to the highest level of the ryu. In Japanese budo once the inka, or menkyo, or kaishaku soden in this case, is issued the person becomes an inheritor of the art, and can do with it as he pleases, and form his own ha batsu. Ueshiba did this, changed the name, and now millions of people practice aikido. Maybe if he called it Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu it would have been easier to swallow?

Ya know, maybe Kimura posted the scroll in the book because it contains important information, beyond a childish stab at a guy who broke away decades ago? Many time densho and other ryu related documents contain very creative language that only students of the ryu understand. I think if you look in the sword section, or on aikidojournal's forum you can find a post by Ellis Amdur about the kuden of Jigen ryu and what it means? While the idea of the Dragonfly landing on the branch means nothing to me, to a Jigen ryu student it is pivitol. Why wouldn't a teacher, Sagawa or Ueshiba, want to have such reminders about the art around for their students to see?

So Jack I'll ask you this, what are you trying to prove, or what conclusions are you trying to come to? Help us out because I think many of us are confused by your posts.

[chrismoses]

So Jack I'll ask you this, what are you trying to prove, or what conclusions are you trying to come to? Help us out because I think many of us are confused by your posts.

I'm not only confused, I'm insulted. Those of you who know me should realize that I'm certainly not in the cult of OSensei/Aikido, but Jack, your comments strike me (a frequent critic of Ueshiba and his art) as revisionist and emotionally fueled. Further your constant use of the word "pedant" where it simply does not apply confueses me. The people you are argueing with are, in my opinion, some of the more level headed and open minded souls on this board. Your initial response to Ron's very legitimate post was supremely insulting. And the assertion that an instructor would post the hanging scroll in question in their dojo, simply to get a dig in at another teacher who would probably never ever visit their dojo is simply not rational. Further, even if it were true, it would certainly paint him in a terrible light, if the one written statement that he chose to make in his dojo was a sideways jab at another (more famous) teacher. If that were the case, I think it would do a lot to discredit his version of the events. There is a lot of documentation (not just in the Aikido community) that points to Ueshiba having had a special, if not unique, relationship with Takeda, and the facts are there that Takeda approved of (at least initially) what Ueshiba was doing. I don't think anyone here is making the assertion that Ueshiba is the one and only great student of Sokaku Takeda. In order to be taken seriously, I really think you need to cool the rhetoric and start making claims that you can back up with something other than conjecture.

[DDATFUS]

As I see it, it stands now, that Ueshiba is not a man to be examined, much like other religious figures are prevented, as it is blasphemy in the eyes of some.

I'm a bit confused by this. I haven't heard anyone say "How dare you question O Sensei!"

I think most of what I've seen in this thread is more along the lines of, "Can you back that up?"


The Framers (being men of Science and Knowledge) of this country thought it very important to have free speech, and thus we are able to examine the President in deepth without going to jail or being killed for it,

That is very true. Criticism and analysis are both wonderful things, and I am all for applying them to Ueshiba Sensei. But criticism requires facts, doesn't it?

What if I said, "Thomas Jefferson was one of our worst presidents of all time."
You might reply: "Why do you think so?"
"Well, a lot of people didn't like him. I think John Adams didn't like him. I'm not really sure, though. A lot of people thought he was doing the wrong thing. And he did some stuff he shouldn't have."
You might then say, "That's not enough reason to say that he was one of the worst presidents of all time. That might be your opinion, but you haven't given me anything to back it up."
What if I then replied, "Oh, you're just overly sensitive to someone analysing one of the founding fathers." Would that make sense?


I'm very interested in your views, but I wish you were offering a little bit more substance with them.

[Asura]

Damn...
Wish I realized earlier that this party had started.

Btw, this might turn into a mini-rant directed at no-one in particular. Just some thoughts that I wanted to unload off of my head.

I've read both "toumei no chikara" and "Discovering Aiki", and "Toumei no chikara" is by far the more informative of the two. Not to mention it gives solid hints as to how someone needs to train in order to develop this skill. If you have solid instruction on the how-to's of internal training, Toumei no chikara is a good manual on the "mindset" you need to get further in your training.

"Discovering Aiki" reads like one big self absorbed account by Kimura, and honestly after looking at the pix of himself executing techniques I think it's funny that he says he got "aiki".

Take a look at Sagawa's pix, then look at Kimura's.
Sagawa remains in almost a completely natural state, whereas Kimura is still "issuing" force.

I don't doubt that Kimura has internal power, and I'd bet money that he's got connection in his body, and loads of it. But I'd also be willing to bet money that what Kimura does and what Sagawa was doing are almost completely different.

Second thing, Kimura only translates the more irrelevant parts into english, leaving the more informative bits untranslated and in japanese. Take that as you will about his attitude on things ;)

/rant off

Interesting Annecdote for you guys.
Akuzawa trained with Kimura for a couple of years, and also saw Sagawa during that time as well. Although he didn't get to touch Sagawa, he did get to touch Kimura, and apparently towards the tail end of his stay did something during class to upset Kimura (namely, Ark sealed off Kimura's technique momentarily which pissed him off royally), and as a result got kicked out of the class following Sagawa's passing.


Just some juicy gossip for you people. :)

[Samurai Jack]

Hmmmm....I am not criticizing Ueshiba. I am saying Segawa is, as a Japanese martial artist. For the sake of my point, if one turnpikes Japanese culture to fit or describe Segawa as a model for "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword." I think, if we do, we lose sight of the personality and persona of the man, which is reflected in his behavior and actions. Per the books, the Segawa was as unique as Ueshiba, yet he didn't stray from the foundational model of a traditional martial ways, or tenets. He was a fighter, he fought, he took on challengers, and he was devoted and serious about his skills and sought fame. He was not of bad "character", as denoted by S.Takeda etc. He lived what he spoke, and subscribed to the traditions of martial arts before him, etc. Therefore, I believe Segawa wanted to correct an error, that Daito ryu was being plagiarized, by Ueshiba. Therefore, by hanging the Aikido-sounding tenets on his wall, says to me, Segawa is establishing that Ueshiba is not the real stuff. In other words, real Daito ryu exists within his dojo, with him and not with Ueshiba. Here lies the truth.

I personally, think there is a lot of support for the idea of what I said. Kimura, is the first support and a strong one. I previously explained why I feel Kimura is a support of my observation, but I will re-cap. He first studied Aikido. He is a man of high reason (scientifically minded and gifted, his mathematics have been publish etc.), I would not doubt the could explain Aiki in mathematical terms. It is obvious that he understands both the East and the West. A man of this stature, brilliance and rational sided with Segawa. If Segawa didn’t have a truth, I doubt Kimura would have written a book as he did, risking he’s professional and martial arts reputation, putting all on the line. Kimura deals with facts, he deals with proof, not speculation etc.

There are other supports, but I don’t have time or the inclination to write a book on it. I think I have presented enough and most people get it. BTW, there are some pretty good posts after I posted last. I really enjoyed reading them.

:)

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm sorry...I really am, but I can't help it.

Who the heck is "Segawa"???

Why do you keep repeating the exact same nonsense over and over even after people have patiently explained that what you are saying just doesn't make much sense???



I am saying Segawa is, as a Japanese martial artist.

This sentence makes no sense...what the heck is it you intended to say??


He was a fighter, he fought, he took on challengers, and he was devoted and serious about his skills and sought fame.

Please POST in this thread any EVIDENCE of "Se[a]gawa", whoever he is, being a fighter who took on challengers. Or that he sought fame.

Ron

[kokumo]

For the sake of my point, if one turnpikes Japanese culture....

...then take exit 15W to Route 280. Get off at the second exit past the black-iron lift bridge, turn left on the service road, and left again on MLK Boulevard.

Turn right at Warren Street and you've arrived at NJIT, in Newark, NJ.

I don't know if we've really turnpiked Japanese culture, but anybody who's in Newark on Tuesday or Thursday night is welcome to practice with the NJIT Aikido Club.

This has nothing to do with Sagawa except that a couple of my teachers met Kimura in an elevator in New York when he was at Princeton and he subsequently taught an afternoon class on aikiken one weekend at Bond Street. But that was a long time ago and I wasn't there. If I'm not mistaken, it was also before Kimura started training with Sagawa.

There's an old Japanese Steakhouse called Gassho in a psuedo-traditional farmhouse sort of affair on the Eastern Spur. They've probably turnpiked Japanese culture than any of us.

But I hear their aiki-waza is strictly from hunger.

Caveat emptor.

FL

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[kongoshin]

Therefore, by hanging the Aikido-sounding tenets on his wall, says to me, Segawa is establishing that Ueshiba is not the real stuff. In other words, real Daito ryu exists within his dojo, with him and not with Ueshiba. Here lies the truth.

I just can't believe that you actually believe this yourself. There's nothing - other than yor speculation - to support that Sagawas writing was anything else than an opinion on what Aiki is about.


Personally, with my limited understanding of Japanese language and everything else Japanese I ponder the hallowing words to be nothing more then shared universal tenets of Bu-do, I can't remove my pondering that there is something more behind the words, something greater, something more poignant, something more reveling that needs to be seen by Western mind.

You're reading way too much into this. To mock a teacher (who's not even mentioned in the text...) publically - in one's own dojo for all to see - would be so far from japanese etiquette as you can come - and western as well, for that matter...

Please, let the old masters be, concentrate on your own practice and on what the masters actually try to tell us. Has it crossed your mind that Kimura has published the writings simply to transmit the words of his teacher?? For us to learn and grow from, not to speculate about internal politics of people with whom we have no connection whatsoever...

[Daito]

Gentlemen,

I've decided to stay away from any further participation on martial arts discussions, but there are times when I think there's a need for it.

Reading this whole topic made me laugh. Do you realize that you're discussing an issue of "something written and framed" in a manner of "I'm right, you're wrong, no he was wroing, no they are right, no everyone is wrong...". I just don't see a point. I think the message written by Sagawa Sensei is not that complicated to interpret.
Anyway, that would be the end, if I didn't encounter a post that directly insults my techer, and my teacher's teacher.




"Discovering Aiki" reads like one big self absorbed account by Kimura, and honestly after looking at the pix of himself executing techniques I think it's funny that he says he got "aiki".

Take a look at Sagawa's pix, then look at Kimura's.
Sagawa remains in almost a completely natural state, whereas Kimura is still "issuing" force.

I don't doubt that Kimura has internal power, and I'd bet money that he's got connection in his body, and loads of it. But I'd also be willing to bet money that what Kimura does and what Sagawa was doing are almost completely different.

Second thing, Kimura only translates the more irrelevant parts into english, leaving the more informative bits untranslated and in japanese. Take that as you will about his attitude on things ;)
/rant off
Interesting Annecdote for you guys.
Akuzawa trained with Kimura for a couple of years, and also saw Sagawa during that time as well. Although he didn't get to touch Sagawa, he did get to touch Kimura, and apparently towards the tail end of his stay did something during class to upset Kimura (namely, Ark sealed off Kimura's technique momentarily which pissed him off royally), and as a result got kicked out of the class following Sagawa's passing.

Just some juicy gossip for you people. :)

--------------------------

I shall address issuaes as they appear:
--------------------------
1. We have an expert! Thank you God for giving us such a talented one. One that by mere look at photos can spot "real Aiki", "who has it", and "who doesn't".

Some of you may say: "but he's got the point, they look different on pictures". Well, off-course they do. One's name is Sagawa Yukiyoshi (Sohan), the other's name is Kimura Tatsuo (Shihan). One is in Daito-ryu for over 70 years, the other 20-30. Wouldn't it be rather strange if there weren't any differences?
Unfortunately, there are very few photos of Sagawa Sensei in his young years performing Daito-ryu. We never know what would we see. Yet, Sagawa Sensei has captured Aiki at age 17! Kimura Sensei started capturing Aiki in his 40-ties. It's only logical to assume that there should be difference, at least in the pictures.

Whether you believe or not, let me tell you what I know from a direct experience:
1. Each time I go to Japan, I am thrown softer, better, more "mystreriously". It just doesn't end with my surprise in 2001. It goes on and on. No matter how many times I have this great chance, I am always thrown by Kimura Sensei in a ways that by far defy logic. That's my feelings, so you may choose not to believe me.
2. Each time I go to Japan and talk with students who WERE thrown by Sagawa Sohan, they always tell me that the feeling they receive from Kimura Sensei is the same. Not one, not two, many, many people said so. Most of them highly ranked in other martial arts before they've joined Sagawa Sohan and continued under Kimura Sensei. Do you understand the meaning? MOST OF THE STUDENTS FOLLOWS KIMURA SENSEI, not other student of Sagawa Sohan. Why would the majority do that? They all have had chances to experinece techniques of others. Yet, they all agree in unison: the new students say that this is far superior feeling, the old students say that this indeed is Aiki.
Why would they continue under Kimura Sensei, if it were not for Aiki?

"Issuing Force" - very interesting how do you see it in the picture. How can one define "force" or "not force" or "internal power" or whatever you may call it, bu judging a picture??? Please, I'm dying to know.
--------------------------
2. Issue: English in the book.
Do you have the slightest idea how busy Kimura Sensei is? Do you have any idea behind his intentions? You should think before you talk!

Originally the idea of the book was: AikiNews wanted to make a special compilation of all articles and pictures of Sagawa Sensei in one book. The only thing that was new were last 2 inteviews with Kimura Sensei in AikiNews. Kimura Sensei initially was too busy to get involved. However, he found time not only to supply many valuable pictures of Sagawa Sohan, but also write a lot of fascinating information. Please note: AikiNews is Japanese publisher, and now publishes everything in Japanese mostly. It was KImura Sensei himself who decided to traslate some parts into English (unfortunately I'm far behind in my Japanese studies to help). He had to do it by himself! It was not even intended to be a bilingual book.
So, I feel we should be grateful to Kimura Sensei that he has managed to translate so much into English.

Asura: if you don't know the man, try to refrain from making judgements on his intentions. Here I write what I will repeat over and over again in this post: you should be ashamed of youreself!
Really. Not only from martial artist point of view, but from a point of thinking human being. What is there inside you that hold some kind of grudge against Kimura Sensei?

Ah, I forgot, off-course there's something we all hope to gain by Asura's remarks. Yes, the gain might be incredible: no more English publications by Kimura Sensei, even when he has time. Is that your goal?
-------------------------------

3. Issue: you "spicy gossip".
I suggest you quit any form of martial arts and start selling vegetables on the market. That is the perfect place for gossip.

Now some of you could say "but what about if it's true?". Well, considering that there are classes taught by other students of Sagawa Sensei, there would be no reason why Mr.Akuzawa wouldn't continue Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu in other class.
The truth is simple: there is a vast percentage of dropout in this martial art. It's very difficult, very demanding art. People quit. So did he. And after how long? I chose not to say.
------------------------------------

I realize that I am offending Asura (and perhaps more of the readers), however his post was very offensive to the point of disgust.
As I wrote: use your head before you post. It's shocking to see how low-class some posts became.

I have asked Sensei and memebers about Mr.Akuzawa. Guess what?.... I'm not indented to write nor give any "spicy gossips". It's simply too low.

I'm no supposed to write any information on Sagawa-ha Daitoryu on public forums, so I'm risking by writing this. But:
The post was directly offending my teacher. This is my direct response. Asura should be ashamed of his post!
Nothing more to be said.
----------------------------------

Once this forum was interesting, it was Daitoryu forum. Now? Daitoryu being discussed mainly by poeple who don't train in Daitoryu.
I think some Daitoryu people left quite long ago, and no wonder.

I do not intend to further participate in any discussion on the subject of Sagawa Sohan, Kimura Sensei, or Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu. Not only that I shouln't, not just for I don't have enough time, but mainly because I'm very dissapointed of what it all becomes. Jealousy has many faces, and the term "we only want to research the facts" is one of them.

The book is there. Read it. Aprreciate the information. Think by yourself. Then, if you must, discuss it intelligently and with humanity.

P.Wollos

[Samurai Jack]

After reading, with devoted intensity, Mr. P. Wollos post and where this thread went, I do declare that these ends are not what I intended for the thread.

I intended to discuss base on what was cited in the book the possibility that Aikido (M. Ueshiba) took more then technique from the parent Daito Aikijujutsu, and Aikido not crediting. This plagiarism ( imo) possible upset Y. Sagawa per Kimura's book. Keep in mind Y. Sagawa knew Ueshiba, and simply didn't just know of him, so he wasn't being critical from nothing. Also keep in mind that is may be the first published criticism of Aikido by very credible individuals. Aikidoka are no strangers to the decades of and volumes of Datio ryu criticism, first noted by some of Ueshiba's well known students' dislike for Takeda [to what is seen in this thread posted by many posters].

I understand my views really peeved some very devoted Aikidoka off, but we are in a Daito Ryu forum where such things ought to be discussed, well at least I thought so. Par my ignorance for assuming that. I never imaged the final degrading of this thread has become what it has.

At this point I would like to address one flaw in myself. I don't fully read Japanese and my citing of the discussed banner's wording falls to my absences of [the Japanese] language and context interpretation. Therefore, this was my call to have the book translated in English, by Kimura, the author himself. In this way, there is no question of the translator's hand. Something we see in many older Japanese martial texts. How wonderful and rare it would be to have a direct translation from the author in English, a language known through out the world. I think I read that Kimura's book is already been translated in German. If the book was translated in English then the discussions on Kimura's books can be done intelligently and in a scholarly manner. Otherwise, we just have to guess and suffer though gossip and speculation. That is just ICKY! :)


With sincere thought,

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Samurai Jack]

Nathan,

You provided Dan a predicated opportunity. During the course opportunity, he has argued in defensive and in offensive, provided recapitulation and expansion to supporters’ questions. Dan has been given this opportunity by you, and has rightly taken full advantage of it. An opportunity afforded to him by you that has not been afforded to anyone else; if so not this length or level of tolerance. Not to be turbid in any manner, this is your right and your forum to do so.

Let’s give the guy a break; there is no foundation that constitutes any further vociferous contributions to the discussion. I see no reason to refute or rebut based on that the above fact for the existance of this thread.

Not considering the meaningless and trite context of what I am about to expouse, but rather utilize it as
the support to the foundation of truth; undoubtably I was told to shut up and was improperly penialized for my contra-opinion, instead of being recognized for what they where as debating contributions. I thus realized the wisdom in Galatians 6, and thus, God willing, so may you.




Let us ponder on Proverbs 29:23

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[elder999]

Dear Jack,

What?!?

Regards,


More irony from Mr. Robison:laugh:



Proverbs 29:23:
A man's pride will bring him low,
But a humble spirit will obtain honor..

:rolleyes:

[Samurai Jack]

To all,

I want to make it known, I have no more contention with Dan or his views. There are some nasty people out there who feel vengance and revenge because at one time I was not on board with Dan. Their poor character sadly reflects up Dan. Which I think is wrong. It is also not a reason for why I am posting this now.

Genuinely, I feel Dan has been given an opportunity to openly discuss his findings and research. It is not to be debated. I was wrong to debate Dan, and rightly suffer from those who follow him.

I say this because at first I failed to realize the intention of the moderator and this board to provide Dan an opportunity, an opportunity seen by the moderator as a contribution where as mine was not. I am not judging that nor any feeling, it is a fact.

I am no longer going to post here for that reason. And because frankly, boards like this are dead, and no good comes of it. People here are set in their groups, in their sides, in their opinions. It is not a place to discuss, but rather to amass and reinforce their ideas, group think, group behavior. To shoot down and pressure out those who don't agree for fit the frame.

I knew this all very well for years as I lurked. I take full responsibility for becoming a poster, I know the risks and the attitudes all too well. E-budo had 2 crashes. Prior to the first crash E-budo had many well known people here. As of the last year or so, E-budo finally suffered a third and different type of crash. A less noticable crash building for years, more devastating, and crushing then the first two. A slow in coming crash that has bleed E-Budo pale. Gone is the richness, and culture that it once was. Honestly, its not what it use to be.

Sayonara, Forlorned.

[lucky1899]

Jack,

I think having differing opinions is human and expressing them is essential to our growth. It is, of course, your choice to leave and if you follow through with that choice, I, for one, will miss reading your posts.

Best of luck to you.

Best regards,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[Ron Tisdale]

And I, for one, will not...mostly because they are so poorly written.

The best revenge Jack, is to live well. I hope you live well.

Best,
Ron

Jack,

I think having differing opinions is human and expressing them is essential to our growth. It is, of course, your choice to leave and if you follow through with that choice, I, for one, will miss reading your posts.

Best of luck to you.

Best regards,

Andrew De Luna
Daito Ryu

[lucky1899]

Ron Wrote:
And I, for one, will not...mostly because they are so poorly written.

The best revenge Jack, is to live well. I hope you live well.

Best,
Ron


More time spent perfecting grammar is less time spent perfecting martial art. :D

Regards,

Andrew De Luna

[Ron Tisdale]

Possibly...or the two could be the same. For instance, Jack's posts were poor martial art. The art was poor, but the martial was poor because of the lack of clarity, and the ease of mis-understanding. Look at all the arguements he fostered. So, in a sense, clearer writing could actually be a martial endeavor of sorts...or at least a method of keeping oneself out of conflict due to mis-understandings.

Kind of like reigi.

This is without even going to the point that no one expects perfect grammer, or spelling, or even proper word usage (as opposed to malapropisms, which Jack is surely famous for). No one is perfect...least of all me. But some realistic effort could be made...

Best,
Ron (it's all one)

[Mark Jakabcsin]

I have been traveling all day and just checked in. All I have to say is:

Dang, who moved the rock?!?

MJ

[Thomas_Campbell]

It's not the first time you've promised to leave, Jack. I daresay it won't be the last.

[Ron Tisdale]

What's interesting, is that we have a new poster on aikiweb who writes much like Jack, and is beating a similar dead horse there.

Best,
Ron (10 points to the person who can tie the two IPs together)

[Mike Haftel]

I actually just finished reading Kimura's book, Discovering Aiki, 20 Years....

It was a fairly interesting read. I enjoyed seeing some of the photos of Sagawa Sensei and Kimura Sensei.

It was actually translated by Kimura's brother, wasn't it? That's what I thought it said in the book...

In any event, everyone being talked about in this thread is a much more capable martial artist than I and I would gladly study under any of them. I'd love to fly down to Tokyo and study with Kimura Sensei, irregardless of what's being discussed here.

[Asura]

I know that this post is a reply to something written over 2 years ago, but I only stumbled across it now :look:
Anyways, I thought I should respond to it for the record:


Gentlemen,
Anyway, that would be the end, if I didn't encounter a post that directly insults my techer, and my teacher's teacher.


Don't take it personally dude, I never meant to say that Kimura sucked donkey nuts. On the contrary, even without having met him, I'd say that he's been conditioned to the point where he could probably toss a lot of heavyweight guys around like toddlers ;)



--------------------------
1. We have an expert! Thank you God for giving us such a talented one. One that by mere look at photos can spot "real Aiki", "who has it", and "who doesn't".

I never said "Aiki", but I also say that once you start getting your foot in the door with certain body skills, I don't think it's too far off base to call stuff as you see it. Again, those were just my opinions, nothing more.



Some of you may say: "but he's got the point, they look different on pictures". Well, off-course they do. One's name is Sagawa Yukiyoshi (Sohan), the other's name is Kimura Tatsuo (Shihan). One is in Daito-ryu for over 70 years, the other 20-30. Wouldn't it be rather strange if there weren't any differences?

Yet, Sagawa Sensei has captured Aiki at age 17! Kimura Sensei started capturing Aiki in his 40-ties. It's only logical to assume that there should be difference, at least in the pictures.

I think it would first serve to clarify what Sagawa defined as "Aiki."
If he was 17 when he captured the trick of "Aiki" then it had less to do with something dependent on body conditioning. My personal guess is that it had more to do with what the chinese might call "jin" skills. (Sagawa's quote about never using his shoulders to power things, even when he was young is a big tip-off if you ask me)

Again, the lack of clarification as to what they mean by Aiki doesn't serve to illustrate matters.
Kimura starting to capture "Aiki" in his 40's lends itself towards something more directly related to the skills dependent on conditioning.



Whether you believe or not, let me tell you what I know from a direct experience:
<snip>
Sagawa Sohan, they always tell me that the feeling they receive from Kimura Sensei is the same. Not one, not two, many, many people said so. Most of them highly ranked in other martial arts before they've joined Sagawa Sohan and continued under Kimura Sensei. Do you understand the meaning? MOST OF THE STUDENTS FOLLOWS KIMURA SENSEI, not other student of Sagawa Sohan.
Why would the majority do that? They all have had chances to experinece techniques of others. Yet, they all agree in unison: the new students say that this is far superior feeling, the old students say that this indeed is Aiki.
Why would they continue under Kimura Sensei, if it were not for Aiki?

Um...sure but there's a lot of sucky high-rankers running around, so that really doesn't mean squat.
That's not to detract from Kimura's skill, like I said, my impression from what I've heard of the guy is that he's one skilled/conditioned SOB (if not more than a little ?*&! [attitude]). Whether he actually got what Sagawa had is another matter entirely. Just cuz people follow him has no bearing on whether he got the skills.
For that matter, I heard that there were a bunch of students that decided to follow Takahashi. ;)





"Issuing Force" - very interesting how do you see it in the picture. How can one define "force" or "not force" or "internal power" or whatever you may call it, bu judging a picture??? Please, I'm dying to know.

Posture, the way he's holding his hand when the guy goes flying away.
People only have two hands and two feet, so there's only so many ways you can generate efficient power of this nature.





He had to do it by himself! It was not even intended to be a bilingual book.
So, I feel we should be grateful to Kimura Sensei that he has managed to translate so much into English.


I was just stating my opinion as someone that can read both Japanese and English fluently that the man left out the more pertinent points, especially quotes by Sagawa untranslated. The quotes aren't even that hard to translate. It was just an impression I got from the book, and unfortunately one that's been mirrored by others I know that've read the book.



Asura: if you don't know the man, try to refrain from making judgements on his intentions. Here I write what I will repeat over and over again in this post: you should be ashamed of youreself!
Really. Not only from martial artist point of view, but from a point of thinking human being. What is there inside you that hold some kind of grudge against Kimura Sensei?

Ah, I forgot, off-course there's something we all hope to gain by Asura's remarks. Yes, the gain might be incredible: no more English publications by Kimura Sensei, even when he has time. Is that your goal?


Duly noted, I'll go give myself 20 lashes of the whip and 10 hail mary's :D

Joking aside, in all his books, I have yet to read any useful information coming forth from the man regarding the physical skills, so really there's no loss if you ask me.
-------------------------------



3. Issue: you "spicy gossip".
I suggest you quit any form of martial arts and start selling vegetables on the market. That is the perfect place for gossip.
?

Hey, I'll one up you and say I'd quit to start growing vegetables ;)
At least that work would give me a leg up on the road to gaining an understanding of these body skills.




Now some of you could say "but what about if it's true?". Well, considering that there are classes taught by other students of Sagawa Sensei, there would be no reason why Mr.Akuzawa wouldn't continue Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu in other class.
The truth is simple: there is a vast percentage of dropout in this martial art. It's very difficult, very demanding art. People quit. So did he. And after how long? I chose not to say.
------------------------------------

Akuzawa quit after 2, 3 years only because Sagawa passed away and he felt that there was nothing more to be gained.
Insinuating that he quit cuz he couldn't hack it....
well let's just say that you should drop by the Tokyo classroom sometime.
And I mean that whole heartedly. I think you'll find that there's a reason that Ark's been gaining the reputation he has.
He just had no interest in Daitoryu's curriculum, simply the body skill that Sagawa possessed.




I realize that I am offending Asura (and perhaps more of the readers), however his post was very offensive to the point of disgust.
As I wrote: use your head before you post. It's shocking to see how low-class some posts became.

I have asked Sensei and memebers about Mr.Akuzawa. Guess what?.... I'm not indented to write nor give any "spicy gossips". It's simply too low.

Dude, I've been razed worse
Your oh so subtle insinuations are just as bad as my over the top posts dude. :D
Let's call it even.




I'm no supposed to write any information on Sagawa-ha Daitoryu on public forums, so I'm risking by writing this. But:
The post was directly offending my teacher. This is my direct response. Asura should be ashamed of his post!
Nothing more to be said.

Well, you know you could have just pm'd me if you found it that offensive.
I promise that I don't bite in private :D

If it makes you feel any better Kimura is at the top of my list of people to get out and feel at some point!
And I have a pet peeve towards people that tend to place labels on these skills... understanding Japanese from a fairly competent cultural perspective, Kimura's writings have always smacked of being fairly aloof. Hell, dive into the Japanese 2ch if you want to see most people's reactions to his writings, I'm not the first nor the last to say that.

But again, those were just my opinions, and as I'm sure you know, everyone's got them and they all...

Anyways, enuf blathering, and back to trainin!

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. John,

Your opinions are welcome here, but watch the language. I understand you are reacting to another somewhat heated post, but let's end it here. No more bickering - take it offline if either of you wish to continue.

Thanks,