PDA

View Full Version : What does Red & White mean?



DMcGowan
15th December 2000, 12:26
First of all, I hope this is the right section. Last night, I had a student ask me what the colors of the belts stood for (ie. White is purity.....). I'm sure everyone has there own "translations" of this but then he ask me what the colors of a red & white masters belt meant. So, that is my question "What does the red & white stand for?"
Thanks in advance,

Karl Friday
15th December 2000, 16:24
Originally posted by DMcGowan
First of all, I hope this is the right section. Last night, I had a student ask me what the colors of the belts stood for (ie. White is purity.....). I'm sure everyone has there own "translations" of this but then he ask me what the colors of a red & white masters belt meant. So, that is my question "What does the red & white stand for?"
Thanks in advance,

Red and white were (at least according to popular tradition) the colors of the banners of the Taira (= Heike) and Minamoto (= Genji) forces during the Gempei War in the late 12th century. It's become traditional to use these two colors to identify teams or competitors in sporting events--hence the red or white tags/belts worn by the opponents in judo matches and the red and white flags used by the judges.

That's why these particular colors were chosen for the "master" belts. The reason for the checkered belts in the first place was simply to have something that distinguished VERY senior teachers from other yudan-sha. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Kano originally advocated that top-ranked judo-ists revert to white belts, for obvious symbolic reasons. But having teachers wearing the same belts as beginners sometimes creates confusion for observers . (The Kashima-Shinryu also designates white belts as the official attire for menkyo-kaiden and shihan, but in practice, we usually just wear black belts when we're not wearing hakama, for this same reason.)

MarkF
16th December 2000, 10:04
This is just a side note, as I'm not an historian, but Kano did suggest this (a white belt) as his students continued to grade him so highly. He continually raised the bar, as he considered 10-dan to mean one has come full circle, and thus, perfect. Since this was a near impossibility, 10-dan had to return to be a students again and learn something new.

The contradiction with the mudansha, and the lower graded yudansha, was a white belt, but was twice as wide as the mudansha white belt.

When his students ignored his pleas (probably anger, in truth) of grading him to such lofty heights, the juidan and junidan were added. While some think Mr. Kano graded himself, this is patently wrong, as Kano did not claim any grade above instructor status. In fact, there were more gifted judoka who may have deserved this grade, EG, Mifune Kyuzo, 10-dan.

Prof. Kano was elevated to 12-dan posthumously as a tribute to him, but Kano would have outright refused this. The fact is that he nearly always wore black hakama and kimono when giving demonstrations, and only wore the judogi with a black belt when asked to for photos or to describe the judogi.

At the very least, this contains some guesswork, but he never accepted any dan status, so the only ones who were doing this, were those at the Kodokan.

Mark

DMcGowan
16th December 2000, 16:49
Thank you all for your reponses!

Brian Griffin
16th December 2000, 17:47
Originally posted by MarkF
... Kano did suggest this (a white belt) as his students continued to grade him so highly...

... When his students ignored his pleas (probably anger, in truth) of grading him to such lofty heights, the juidan and junidan were added...

...Prof. Kano was elevated to 12-dan posthumously as a tribute to him...


Does anyone have any evidence that Kano was ever awarded a dan grade by anybody, at any time, before or after his death?

Does anyone have any evidence that anyone _attempted_ to award Kano a dan rank at any time?


Absent such evidence, I continue to maintain that Kano, as Founder, stands outside the rank structure, as all dan ranks ultimately must trace their authority to Kano himself.

I find it bizarre to imagine _any_ student (or group thereof) presuming to promote his own teacher, especially in pre-war Japan.


Kano's proper Judo rank is _shihan_, a title he held during life.

If anyone ever achieves 12-dan, that individual will also be granted the title _shihan_.
A _shihan_ has the option of wearing a white belt of double-width, in lieu of a black belt.

hyaku
16th December 2000, 21:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Griffin
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]... Kano did suggest this (a white belt) as his students continued to grade him so highly..


I find it bizarre to imagine _any_ student (or group thereof) presuming to promote his own teacher, especially in pre-war Japan.
..................

From the point of view of Kendo there are are number of Ninth Dans. If someone becomes a Tenth Dan, he has to be apppointed by the other Ninth dans. Then again a belt is not part of the uniform.

My Sensei's teacher was the last living tenth dan. He was picked with three others. Two of them accepted but the others had refused. It seems to be general thing to promote people posthumously here in Japan.

Hyakutake Colin

Hyakutake Colin

Brian Griffin
16th December 2000, 22:50
Originally posted by hyaku
From the point of view of Kendo there are are number of Ninth Dans. If someone becomes a Tenth Dan, he has to be apppointed by the other Ninth dans. Then again a belt is not part of the uniform.

My Sensei's teacher was the last living tenth dan. He was picked with three others. Two of them accepted but the others had refused. It seems to be general thing to promote people posthumously here in Japan.

Hyakutake Colin

Hyakutake Colin [/B]

If someone has been promoted nine times by an organization, why shouldn't that organization make a 10th promotion, posthumous or otherwise. All but two judan promotions in Kodokan Judo were made in roughly the way you describe for the ZNKR. (Well...I'm not sure about Palmer, Geesink, & Kawaishi). Several judan promotions have been posthumous.

An organization (like ZNKR or Kodokan) is free to set its own procedures for granting rank to anyone who is subject to its regulations.

That's not at all the same as a student presuming to promote his teacher.

Kano is the _source_ of the Kodokan's authority to grant ranks; he is not _subject_ to that authority. Kendo has no similar figure.

Yamashita & Nagaoka were made judan on Kano's authority alone. He needed no one's permission.


PS--As I've mentioned elsewhere, colored belts are pointless if you train in hakama.

MarkF
17th December 2000, 10:08
Brian,
I misspoke, I guess. When I mentioned "students" I meant the Kodokan. Everything else stated is as true as one wants history to be. The Kodokan took total control without Kano being anything but a figure head by 1930 or so. Why is is so impossible to believe Kano was graded to junidan posthumously? In a conversation I had with someone at the Kodokan, he too claimed Kano was graded junidan, effectively placing him outside the grading system completely.

I also said Kano refused any such grade in his lifetime.

As to Palmer and Geesink being judan, that grade was bestowed on them by the International Judo Federation, not the Kodokan. I believe Geesink to be a Kodokan rokudan.

Mark

MarkF
17th December 2000, 10:40
BTW: In the same phone call, Mr. Murata also stated that no longer will anyone be graded to judan by them. This was also a semi-public anouncement put out by the Kodokan.

Mark