10th Dan Shizuya Sato

[Simon Keegan]

For anyone familiar with Shizuya Sato's brand of "Nihon Jujutsu", which is sometimes called "Sato Ryu Nihon Jujutsu" by his associates, did Sato ever actually study Koryu Jujutsu?
He trained in Judo under Mifune and Ito, in Aikido with Kenji Tomiki, in Kendo with Hakudo Nakayama and Karate with Otsuka - impressive credentials to be sure but how does this equate to a 10th Dan in Jujutsu?
I have a feeling he may have picked up some Jujutsu from Jun Asano or Minoru Mochizuki but does anybody know?

[gcarson]

Hi

Its worth your time to do a search on e-budo for sato ryu.......

It will likely enlighten you greatly.

Cheers

[Simon Keegan]

When I say Sato Ryu I'm not talking about any Ninja nonsense. Shizuya Sato is a 70 year old (or thereabouts) Japanese instructor who is quite well respected in Judo and is chief director of Kokusai Budoin. His style of Jujutsu is "Nihon Jujutsu" hence some call it Sato Ryu.
Was just wondering if he has Koryu training





Hi

Its worth your time to do a search on e-budo for sato ryu.......

It will likely enlighten you greatly.

Cheers

[A.J. Bryant]

First, I do not represent Nihon Jujutsu or Shizuya Sato sensei in any way.

Second, why is this in the "Baffling" budo section?

Third, I wouldn't over think the koryu jujutsu connections of Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu. You already named those most likely to have taught, or exposed Sato sensei to koryu jujutsu. Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu is most influenced by Tomiki Aikido and Kodokan Judo/Goshinjutsu, with perhaps some minor influences seen from various styles of koryu jujutsu (read--those with connections to the Kodokan and the former “Koryu” division, etc.).

As to the name "Sato-ryu". This was done by those here in the US to avoid confusion with certain people who have been expelled from the style and continue to use the name and publish videos, as well as the completely unconnected "Nihon-ryu Jujutsu" of George Parulski and others.

Lastly, I gather the point you're trying to make here is if Sato sensei did not, in fact, study a style that specifically used the name "jujutsu" in any depth, then how does he have rank in jujutsu? Well, for one, both Kodokan Judo and Tomiki Aikido are forms of jujutsu. When Sato sensei founded the style, he chose to incorporate many different aspects of the various arts he'd studied, and subsequently chose to use the name jujutsu for his art; why, because that's what it is--a form of Nihon jujutsu... It's that simple.

Moderators, can this be moved?

[Simon Keegan]

Hi Andrew
It's in the "Baffling Budo" section because I'm quite new to the forum and thought this was the section where you posted queries about people's training credentials. I don't mean to question Sato Sensei's ability or demean his training history.
It just strikes me that if a westerner studied Judo, Karate and Aikido and put it together as a "Jujutsu" syllabus they would be judged somewhat differently.
I read an Aikijujutsu book by Hugh Davey who is/was Sato's USA representative and Davey Sensei states that you cannot do generic "Jujutsu" - you must do a specific Ryu so for example if you teach Jujutsu you either teach Kito Ryu, Daito Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu etc. Davey Sensei is sure to point out that Jujutsu Ryu use the Menkyo Kaiden system and that the coloured belt system is a later invention - yet Sato teaches "Jujutsu" peculiar to any Ryu in that all the techniques are found in either Judo, Aikido or Karate and awards belt grades.
Finally, although Sato Sensei is highly graded in Judo I would be interested to know who graded him in Jujutsu. No matter how much Judo or Aikido somebody has done, surely they cannot just decide they are a fully formed 9th Dan in Jujutsu?
You state that Judo and Aikido are forms of Jujutsu. By that reasoning a 10th Dan in Yoshinkan Aikido could claim to hold Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I don't think in any way a Budo grade should equate to a Bujutsu grade.




First, I do not represent Nihon Jujutsu or Shizuya Sato sensei in any way.

Second, why is this in the "Baffling" budo section?

Third, I wouldn't over think the koryu jujutsu connections of Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu. You already named those most likely to have taught, or exposed Sato sensei to koryu jujutsu. Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu is most influenced by Tomiki Aikido and Kodokan Judo/Goshinjutsu, with perhaps some minor influences seen from various styles of koryu jujutsu (read--those with connections to the Kodokan and the former “Koryu” division, etc.).

As to the name "Sato-ryu". This was done by those here in the US to avoid confusion with certain people who have been expelled from the style and continue to use the name and publish videos, as well as the completely unconnected "Nihon-ryu Jujutsu" of George Parulski and others.

Lastly, I gather the point you're trying to make here is if Sato sensei did not, in fact, study a style that specifically used the name "jujutsu" in any depth, then how does he have rank in jujutsu? Well, for one, both Kodokan Judo and Tomiki Aikido are forms of jujutsu. When Sato sensei founded the style, he chose to incorporate many different aspects of the various arts he'd studied, and subsequently chose to use the name jujutsu for his art; why, because that's what it is--a form of Nihon jujutsu... It's that simple.

Moderators, can this be moved?

[A.J. Bryant]

Mr. Keegan,

H.E. Davey is not Sato sensei's representative in the U.S. Davey sensei does not study or teach Sato sensei's jujutsu and never has to my knowledge.


Davey Sensei is sure to point out that Jujutsu Ryu use the Menkyo Kaiden system and that the coloured belt system is a later invention - yet Sato teaches "Jujutsu" peculiar to any Ryu in that all the techniques are found in either Judo, Aikido or Karate and awards belt grades.

In Davey sensei's book, he is referring to koryu jujutsu. Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu is not koryu jujutsu. Technically, it's a modern method of goshinjutsu. Further, have you ever studied Nihon Jujutsu? The techniques are fairly unique to Sato sensei's school and while they utilize similar techniques found in many different arts, they are based in Sato sensei's unique approach to Jujutsu, namely taisabaki.


It just strikes me that if a westerner studied Judo, Karate and Aikido and put it together as a "Jujutsu" syllabus they would be judged somewhat differently.

Why do you say that? Can you give examples?


Finally, although Sato Sensei is highly graded in Judo I would be interested to know who graded him in Jujutsu. No matter how much Judo or Aikido somebody has done, surely they cannot just decide they are a fully formed 9th Dan in Jujutsu?

You missed my point. Again, Judo and Aikido are forms of jujutsu. Further, Sato sensei founded his school and therefore, can call it anything he wants, or give himself any rank he wants in his art... :) In addition, not even knowing for certain whether or not Sato sensei studied any form of koryu jujutsu or what rank may have been received in said art, I tend to trust the judgment of the those in the IMAF who awarded his rank.


You state that Judo and Aikido are forms of Jujutsu. By that reasoning a 10th Dan in Yoshinkan Aikido could claim to hold Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I don't think in any way a Budo grade should equate to a Bujutsu grade.

I don't follow your reasoning here. Aikido is unique to itself, yet it is still a form of jujutsu. Ditto for Judo. A 10th-dan in Yoshinkan Aikido is a 10th-dan in Yoshinkan Aikido, not Daito-ryu. You're twisting my words and mixing ryuha with generic names that describe body movement. Further, as just one example, Ueishiba sensei himself called his art many different things (as did Sokaku Takeda sensei). Noriaki Inoue called his version of Aikido, "Shinei Taido". Others use "Takemusu Aiki" and "Taijutsu", etc. Then there're names such as taiyoho, juho, yawara, etc; they're still essentially forms of jujutsu, which, again, is just a generic term.

As to budo and bujutsu; some budo is bujutsu and some bujutsu is budo. Some practice budo as bujutsu but call it budo. Others practice bujutsu as a budo, yet call it bujutsu on some days and budo on others--just to confuse their students! :D

You're trying to squeeze everything into a nice neat little box. It just isn't that way in traditional Japanese budo.


It's in the "Baffling Budo" section because I'm quite new to the forum and thought this was the section where you posted queries about people's training credentials. I don't mean to question Sato Sensei's ability or demean his training history.

It certainly seems as though you have an agenda to me...<shrug>

You may want to email my teacher, Nicklaus Suino (info@artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com), directly for further clarification on Sato sensei and Nihon Jujutsu.

[Simon Keegan]

Mr. Keegan,

H.E. Davey is not Sato sensei's representative in the U.S. Davey sensei does not study or teach Sato sensei's jujutsu and never has to my knowledge.

- IMAF's Gendo refers to Davey as USA Branch Director. As far as I know he is ranked Kyoshi in Nihon Jujutsu

In Davey sensei's book, he is referring to koryu jujutsu. Sato-ryu Nihon Jujutsu is not koryu jujutsu. Technically, it's a modern method of goshinjutsu.

- You've answered my original question there. So thankyou.

Further, have you ever studied Nihon Jujutsu?

- Yes. And Sato Sensei was kind enough to stamp my license 2nd Dan in 2003.

The techniques are fairly unique to Sato sensei's school and while they utilize similar techniques found in many different arts, they are based in Sato sensei's unique approach to Jujutsu, namely taisabaki.

- You're right he does do a lot of Tai Sabaki



Why do you say that? Can you give examples?
You missed my point. Again, Judo and Aikido are forms of jujutsu. Further, Sato sensei founded his school and therefore, can call it anything he wants, or give himself any rank he wants in his art... :)

- Well good for him. Maybe he'll give himself 11th Dan in a few years.


In addition, not even knowing for certain whether or not Sato sensei studied any form of koryu jujutsu or what rank may have been received in said art, I tend to trust the judgment of the those in the IMAF who awarded his rank.

- So he awarded it to himself or not?

I don't follow your reasoning here. Aikido is unique to itself, yet it is still a form of jujutsu. Ditto for Judo. A 10th-dan in Yoshinkan Aikido is a 10th-dan in Yoshinkan Aikido, not Daito-ryu. You're twisting my words and mixing ryuha with generic names that describe body movement. Further, as just one example, Ueishiba sensei himself called his art many different things (as did Sokaku Takeda sensei). Noriaki Inoue called his version of Aikido, "Shinei Taido". Others use "Takemusu Aiki" and "Taijutsu", etc. Then there're names such as taiyoho, juho, yawara, etc; they're still essentially forms of jujutsu, which, again, is just a generic term.

As to budo and bujutsu; some budo is bujutsu and some bujutsu is budo. Some practice budo as bujutsu but call it budo. Others practice bujutsu as a budo, yet call it bujutsu on some days and budo on others--just to confuse their students! :D

You're trying to squeeze everything into a nice neat little box. It just isn't that way in traditional Japanese budo.



It certainly seems as though you have an agenda to me...<shrug>

- I'm sorry you think that. Sato Sensei seems like a nice man to me and his technique is very solid. I just wanted to know what style of Jujutsu it was.

You may want to email my teacher, Nicklaus Suino (info@artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com), directly for further clarification on Sato sensei and Nihon Jujutsu.

- No, that's ok, but I have a few of his Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu books. They are very good.

[john_lord_b3]

For anyone familiar with Shizuya Sato's brand of "Nihon Jujutsu", which is sometimes called "Sato Ryu Nihon Jujutsu" by his associates, did Sato ever actually study Koryu Jujutsu?
He trained in Judo under Mifune and Ito, in Aikido with Kenji Tomiki, in Kendo with Hakudo Nakayama and Karate with Otsuka - impressive credentials to be sure but how does this equate to a 10th Dan in Jujutsu?
I have a feeling he may have picked up some Jujutsu from Jun Asano or Minoru Mochizuki but does anybody know?

I am not a member of the IMAF (though I did try to apply long ago), and thus cannot comment with any certainty. YMMV.

I heard, he is indeed associated with Asano sensei (who has a menkyo in Asayama Ichiden-ryu if I'm not mistaken).

Also, Otsuka sensei was not just a Karate stylist. He is also a menkyo holder in Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. So it's very plausible that Otsuka sensei also taught Sato sensei some Yoshin-ryu waza.

I think what Sato sensei did was learning as much basic Jujutsu waza as he can from various teachers, and then teach them under one brand, "Nihon Jujutsu".

People interested with Koryu Jujutsu can enroll to the Kobudo division of the IMAF, where they can learn Koryu from Osano sensei.

[Simon Keegan]

The issue of Kobudo was confusing in IMAF though, as I often tried to point out to the UK directors. The likes of Jun Asano teach Koryu Bujutsu referred to as Kobudo but then of course, Karate instructors who also do bits of Nunchaku/Sai/Tonfa consider themselves Kobudo practitioners.
I often said the Kobudo division should have a clear definition between Nippon Kobudo (ie Koryu Bujutsu) and Ryukyu Kobudo (ie Okinawan weapons) but nobody could seem to grasp the difference.
For that matter IMAF never seemed to know what to do with Aikijujutsu, transferring it from the Nihon Jujutsu division to the Aikido division and back again a few times.
Some Aikijujutsu practitioners had more in common with Jujutsu, whereas others like the Swiss branch director Mitsuhiro Kondo were more akin to Aikido - but then I questionned what they would do if they ever got any Koryu Aikijujutsu and they said: "Put them in the Kobudo division".
Needless to say when myself and three other regional directors left IMAF we were sure to have more sensible divisions in our own association.

[john_lord_b3]

Because many non-Japanese wants to have strict, clear definitions regarding the terms in martial arts, while the Japanese are not always that strict.

[MarkF]

Mr. Bryant,

Could you please explain the following from one of your posts?


(read--those with connections to the Kodokan and the former “Koryu” division, etc.).


If you do mean a koryu division of the Kodokan, could you also cite your source[s]?


Thank you,


Mark

[A.J. Bryant]

Hi Mark,

No problem; I meant that part of the pre-war Kodokan that encuraged or invited koryu instruction into the dojo from outside sources. In other words, Minoru Mochizuki, Yoshio Sugino, and others being sent/encuraged by Kano sensei to study with Ueshiba sensei, as well as Katori Shinto-ryu, etc. I believe that some of these teachers used to actually instruct at the Kodokan during the 1930s at least. This is all discussed in interviews with the people in question in Stanley Pranin's Pre-war Masters of Aikido book.

Being the resident Judo historian, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)