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louroberto
15th September 2006, 04:15
I was wondering if anyone had any advice on doing some touch up polishing on a folded blade. I had changed the tsuba and now there are some little smudge like scratches in the blade from moving in the saya. This blade has a full polish on it already(very shiny). I was wondering if there was a specific grit paper I can use to get rid of them and can I just hit the spots or do I have to go over the whole length of the blade to make it even?. Do I sand in the direction of the hada? ex with the grain, or sand towards the ha. Also when a blade gets a full polish does it make the hamon disapear? I thaught it was to bring the hamon out? Or would it not have had one in the first place if you do not see it now? I did a search on the forum but did not realy find a specific answer I was looking for on this. Thanks for any help!

Brian Owens
19th September 2006, 07:59
...when a blade gets a full polish does it make the hamon disapear? I thaught it was to bring the hamon out? Or would it not have had one in the first place if you do not see it now?
If the entire blade is "very shiny" then it was probably not traditionally polished. A traditional polish will generally result in very shiny sections (like the mune) where the metal is burnished, less shiny areas where it is polished with very fine stones, and still less shiny areas where somewhat less fine stones are used to give the edge some "bite."

Yes, traditional polishing will bring out the hamon, if one is present.

Improper polishing, especially by an untrained person using sandpaper, can ruin a blade, not only by distorting features such as the hamon and the shinogiji, but also by changing the profile of the blade -- the niku, the shinogi line, etc.

I doubt if anyone here will try to teach you to become a to-ken over the Web, any more than we'd try to teach you to become a kenshi that way.

There are some books and videos that can get you started, although an apprenticeship under a tutor would be better; and you should start by practicing on something other than a live blade and work your way up.

HTH.

louroberto
19th September 2006, 14:34
Hello Brian,
I really did not think that anyone would teach me to become a to-ken nor was I looking for that. I was simply asking if you could get rid of some small. tiny smudges and scratches that where on the blade. I was not looking to have the whole blade polished. If that where the case I would send it to a proffessional. Just trying to save some money. This is not a spectacular blade. It is what I use for tameshigiri. It does have a nice polish on it but the sword is only worth about 1000.00 bucks. I probably should have been more clear on the description. Thanks though! I guess I will just wait until it needs a full polish again before spending the $$$.

Brian Owens
19th September 2006, 21:41
...I was simply asking if you could get rid of some small. tiny smudges and scratches that where on the blade. I was not looking to have the whole blade polished.
Understood. My concern is that if you try to work on only a small section of the blade, unless you have some experience, you'll get a section that will look different from the rest of the blade and will really stand out. So then the temptation would be to try to get it to blend, and pretty soon you'll have made the section bigger and more noticable, instead of less.

I think letting it be for now and then getting it done later is a good choice.

That said, I do think you might enjoy Token Konno's video. Also, while I haven't seen it yet, I've been told that the Kapps have or will soon have out a book on polishing.

HTH.

louroberto
20th September 2006, 01:54
yes and thank you for the help. You are right it would spread from a little section to try and cover up to end up being the whole thing. Is it normal practice after so many cuts to get the blade re polished? Thanks again!

pgsmith
20th September 2006, 03:28
Is it normal practice after so many cuts to get the blade re polished?
Not usually. It is normal after a large number of cuts to touch up the edge to keep its sharpness. If you are going to use a blade, it will continue getting scratched. I don't recommend having a full polish done until you are ready to retire the blade from use. Then all the money you spend on a nice polish can just be enjoyed and not scuffed up when it's used.

Brian Owens
20th September 2006, 03:56
...Is it normal practice after so many cuts to get the blade re polished? Thanks again!
I don't do much cutting, but my understanding is that it is more a matter of how the blade is performing than of a set number of cuts. The type of target, technique, blade characteristics, etc. could all affect when/how often a blade needs to be repolished.

BTW, you may already know this, but just for clarity -- "polishing" in the case of swords doesn't mean the same thing as polishing silver or furniture. In this case it refers not to the process of making something shine, but of shaping and sharpening the blade. Making it shine and removing scratches may be a byproduct of polishing, but for swords intended for use, as oppossed to art object it is not the primary goal.

Uh...I think. ;)

(Where's Keith Larman when you need him?)

kdlarman
22nd September 2006, 19:30
...BTW, you may already know this, but just for clarity -- "polishing" in the case of swords doesn't mean the same thing as polishing silver or furniture. In this case it refers not to the process of making something shine, but of shaping and sharpening the blade. Making it shine and removing scratches may be a byproduct of polishing, but for swords intended for use, as oppossed to art object it is not the primary goal.

Uh...I think. ;)

(Where's Keith Larman when you need him?)

At home trying to find out exactly how much gunk I can blow out of my sinuses before my head collapses... Sinus infection from hell for the last week. Blech.

I've been tempted for a while to write an article about how "polishing" is really a misleading term for what a togishi does. Polishing carries connotations with many of making things shiny. Or scratch removal. The reality is that the primary objective of a togishi is the preservation and restoration of the blade. And that is a complex topic.

Most newcomers to appreciating Japanese swords focus on hamon. Some on hada. What they fail to notice is the shaping, structure, crispness, and "flow" of a well done sword. I've seen production swords in atrocious polish where the hamon and hada were brightly visible. That many loved. But what I saw was washboarded surfaces, rounded lines, poor shape for cutting, awkward sori, awkward tapers, and so forth.

Togi starts with understanding the blade in question. That means knowing the smith's work, the school's work, how the blade *should* look. Then on the very first stone foundation is set. Foundation is critical. One of my polishing mentors likes to say that there are three keys to a good polish. Foundation, foundation, foundation. All the subtle details of how it should be shaped is set on that first stone.

And it is about conservation, especially on good swords and always on nihonto. Rounded lines from a poor initial polish mean the sword will have to be dramatically reshaped (at a cost of lifespan) if it is ever to be put right. Bad shaping just means future polishes will be a pain in the butt because either the togishi has to work around washboarding, rounded lines, poor shape, etc. or they have to fix those things which means a tremendous amount of work. Heck, I've refused to repolish a blade made by a rather popular western smith because the thing was so badly shaped by the smith that fixing everything would leave them with only a shadow of the blade.

Anyway, polishing is about establishing the foundation. Then we work on refining the surfaces, removing scratches, but also opening up the steel to reveal what is really there. So it isn't about making it shiny, it is about polishing a lens into the steel itself so you can look inside. A good polish can tell you a lot about the skill of the smith. A person with an experienced eye can literally see how the steel was worked from the patterns in the steel. And how it was heat treated by the nature of the structures. It is about revealing "studyable" features.

Buffing a blade just makes it shiny obscuring all those things.

And on polishing and user blades... Personally I think many production blades should be viewed somewhat like disposable lighters. You may get a handle redone. Or a new saya when it wears out. You might have the edge touched up after a lot of use. But most guys I know working in the craft doing good work won't spend the time to repolish a production blade. I've done it a few times out of curiousity and as favors for friends. And some of the high end Paul Chen blades are particularly nice in that way. But they are still production blades. And do you want to spend over $1500 for a quality polish on a katana that you can buy off the shelf "polished" and mounted for $1200?

On custom swords I have a different point of view. If you are talking about a well made sword by a good smith, well, I cannot imagine why anyone would consider having it finished by anyone other than a good polisher. There will be a wait, there will be a high price tag, but if you read what I wrote above the key to a good polish is foundation. And that's what is usually skipped in a cheap polish. If I spent 2 full days just shaping the kissaki on a sword, then another day on the first stone establishing the entire geometry, then a few more days refining until I get into finish and spend another few days there... How many hours are we talking about? And how much skill? And how much wear and tear on the stones (not to mention the tendonitis in my elbow)? So someone spends one to two weeks full time just polishing the sword. Wearing out a hundred dollars worth of expensive stones and going through an entire bottle of advil (polisher's vitamins)? Do you think a $500 polish is going to cover all of that?

There is a reason a good polish costs a lot. It takes a lot of time, energy, work and training. And it doesn't happen quickly no matter how good you are. And frankly if I figure out things on an hourly basis many of the guys doing really good polishes are getting paid less per hour than the guys doing "polishing" using trizact belts and buffers and charging very low rates. Doing a cheap polish is actually more profitable -- much less time per dollar spent.

Anyway, if the polish is done right the very first time the geometry will be set, correct, clean and crisp. And even if the blade gets heavily scratched and scuffed from use the next polisher will have an optimal shape already set. Which means they only have to remove as much material as necessary to deal with the damage done in the interim. They won't have to grind down to remove the previous "polishers" washboarding. They won't have to grind down the entire shinogi-ji just to crisp up the shinogi the first crappy polisher rounded. Etc.

So in my opinion (obviously I"m biased but there ya go) the first polish on a decent sword should be the best polish you can get. Crappy polishes do more damage in the long run and give you nothing other than a smoother crappy shape. Fully polished initially and you can see everything the blade has to offer. You'll see what your blade really has, learn more about how it was made, etc. Then go cut stuff and use it all you want. Scuffind and minor scratching are signs the sword is being used. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd rather see a blade I polished with scuffs and scratches than a blade with a ruined geometry due to a poor polish that is never used.

Sorry, all over the map in this post, but the cough syrup is starting to make me chatty... ;)

louroberto
22nd September 2006, 20:27
Wow Mr. Larman. Now that clarified my initial question 10 times over. I just asumed that since the blade was so shiney that it had a full polish. maybe it was just buffeda great deal. It is a production blade after all. In that case I should not have stated the subject to be polishing touch up. It seems that a polish is far more than a touch up. This is exactly what I was looking for. What a great detailed answer for me. Thank you and I guess I will not worry about this blade so much and just use it for what I intended it for , Cutting! Thank you for your time and detailed description on what polishing actualy is is. Thanks again and hgope to feel better!