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Draff
16th December 2000, 05:38
I've read about this before, but unfortunately I cannot find the source and I'm not entirely sure if I'm write.

What I wanted to know was how the samurai could overcome the Confucius rule restricting killing?

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

MarkF
16th December 2000, 10:11
Sorry, Draff, but I can't answer the question, except that killing has always, and in many societies, had restricion on this.

Also, welcome to e-budo, but could you please sign with your full name? You can configure your signature box for this purpose. Most like to know to whom they are speaking, and it also is one the forum rules.:)

Mark

ben johanson
19th December 2000, 20:14
Christianity forbids killing, but that certainly didn't hinder the crusades any did it?

Karl Friday
19th December 2000, 21:07
Originally posted by Draff
What I wanted to know was how the samurai could overcome the Confucius rule restricting killing?

Confucianism doesn't really have a problem with killing per se, only with MURDER--that is, with killing under improper circumstances. Confucian-inspired penal codes, for example, specified all sorts of nasty means of execution for various types of crimes and criminals.

Confucianism *does*, on the other hand, strongly disesteem the military and military functions ("the best iron is not used for nails, the best men are not used for soldiers"), largely because it teaches that when the ruler is properly virtuous, the people will spontaneously follow him and behave themselves, without need for punishment or threat thereof. Thus is Confucian eyes, the very existence of police or military forces is an admission of failure to achieve correct government. Japanese Confucian thinkers neatly ignored this aspect of Confucianism, identifying the samurai (the bushi, or wu-shih, in Mandarin pronunciation) with the scholar/literati/bureaucratic class (shi, or shih in Mandarin) of the Chinese Confucian tradition.

The most difficult moral dilemmas concerning the taking of life that samurai had to face stemmed from Buddhist and Shinto prohibitions. Samurai of different periods faced this problem in different ways.

Medieval warriors appear, for the most part, to have simply been fatalistic about the whole thing, accepting a life of killing--of sin--as a function of duty and destiny, and probably the product of karmic retribution for sins in a previous existence. Many who lived long enough to have the option attempted to reclaim some kind of balance for their sins by taking the tonsure in retirement and devoting themselves to religion.

Late medieval and Tokugawa period samurai also developed numerous sorts of explanations and rationalizations that absolved them of responsibility for the taking of life in the course of their duties, and/or transformed the study of martial art or the act of killing into something else. I discussed this at some length in *Legacies of the Sword*. One of the most interesting lines of thought derives from a blend of Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist ideas that sees the perfect warrior as one who never needs to fight, or even to threaten to fight, and yet is still able to maintain peace and order around him.

kusanku
27th December 2000, 05:43
Wasn't Confucius himself a trainer of Knights?


regards, Kusanku

Ron Tisdale
28th December 2000, 16:03
Hello Dr. Friday,

It is good, as always, to read your posts. Your last post here reminded me of a book I'm reading, Memoirs of the Warrior Kumagai(sp). I'm wondering if you've read it, and if so, what you thought of it.

Thank you for your time,

Ron Tisdale

Karl Friday
29th December 2000, 18:27
I bought it a few weeks ago (after reading a couple of rave reviews), but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Glad to hear another opinion confirming that this purchase was a good choice!

Ron Tisdale
2nd January 2001, 16:28
Happy new year, and thanks for the response. When you do read it, I would be glad to hear your opinions. I like it (got distracted with other things) but have yet to finish it. Maybe next week...:)
Ron Tisdale

John Lindsey
9th October 2003, 08:23
bump