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Martyn Skipper
27th September 2006, 20:33
Here's a curve-ball:
What's Oie Tsuki about?
I have my own theories, which I'll expand upon later, but after 30 years it still puzzles me. Anyone got any bright ideas? I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who can trace its provenance.

Andrew S
27th September 2006, 21:31
I recally reading that it was ex-JKA Yahara's favourite technique for "dealing" with a "problem". Yahara runs a security firm and helps people who have trouble with organized gangs.

Gary Wado
27th September 2006, 21:32
Yes on the face of it this does appear to be an odd technique!

In wado we train in "Oie-Tsuki" or "Jun-Tsuki" punch every lesson.

For us it is very important as, it teaches correct body mechanics behind a punch.

Whilst in its basic form, it is not appropriate for sparing (too slow), it is considered one of the corner stone techniques of TK, as through continuous practice, the Karateka "hones" the timing, weight transfer, co-ordination and hip rotation etc. of the technique.

A subtle but important by-product of training in a deep zenkutsu-dachi stance is the development of leg strength.

In my view, when "mastered" and applied to a Kumite scenario, all of the above improve the speed and effectiveness of a punching technique.

Was this your theory? If not please share it with me.

Gary Needham

Margaret Lo
27th September 2006, 21:56
Here's a curve-ball:
What's Oie Tsuki about?
I have my own theories, which I'll expand upon later, but after 30 years it still puzzles me. Anyone got any bright ideas? I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who can trace its provenance.

It is necessary mechanics for future weapons training.

Gary Wado
27th September 2006, 22:07
It is necessary mechanics for future weapons training.

I can agree with that as well Margaret.

Being a humble Wado student though, they dont often let us train with sharp objects :)

Gary Needham

Brad Burklund
27th September 2006, 22:16
Oi-tsuki is one of those very hard techniques from which to easily get utility. If you use it in its ultra-orthodox, step-in, zenkutsu-dachi stance, I think one breaks efficacy for aesthetic. For real use, I like to think of it as a boxer’s lead jab.

On further exploration, and once the student really gets the body weight shift into the strike, it can be used with sufficient power to at least make an opponent take notice. A gross way of looking at shifting body weight and exploring this technique is seeing how you would throw it after a front kick.

When using a mai-geri, you cannot use the opposing hand opposite the kicking side, until the kicking leg has landed and you have restructured your stance to put the body behind a reverse punch. However, as the kicking leg lands, you can use the weight shift of one’s falling body to throw an oi-tsuki that would be quicker and would flow from the recovery of the kicking motion without undo time taken up in re-establishing your stance.

Regards,

Martyn Skipper
27th September 2006, 22:24
I'm inclined to believe the weapons thing, and I accept some of the arguments about posture and weight shift etc, but I'm going to leave this thread open a while before I submit my own opinions. Not to be bloody minded. Simply to solicit some unbiased inputs.

Gary Wado
27th September 2006, 23:07
Martyn,

When you say you are inclined to believe its a weapons thing, do you mean as a deffence against or whilst using a weapon.

Intersted, as being a Wado Ryu Karate-ka most of our training evolves around defending against: ie Tanto-dori, Ken-dori etc.

I know however that the Okinwan based Karate styles have weapons training as part of their "sylabus" as it were.

Have I missed something!

Gary Needham

gordonfong
28th September 2006, 13:45
For me the main thing to consider is not the junzuki or oizuki aspect, but the body movement. Stepping forward gives more distance to reach an opponent, from the kihon level this translates to ayumi-ashi movement from a fighting perspective.

Important points to consider are to initiate with body movement and not lead with the legs, try to hide the movement and not to over commit.

Going to the weapons point, I believe (based on some snippets taught and DVD footage, so not entirely comprehensive) that within the Japanese sword carrying classes that when they walked it was always "jun" type of motion and not the reverse/counter arm swing motion in the Western world. So, the upper body movement stays with the hips and not opposite.

As to your question "Of any value at all?" then my reply is yes. It is just part of the arsenal, as long as you develop it further. If all you did was oizuki/junzuki, then no.

Margaret Lo
28th September 2006, 15:03
I can agree with that as well Margaret.

Being a humble Wado student though, they dont often let us train with sharp objects :)

Gary Needham

Consider branching out. Japanese sword use and bo technique will show that lower body technique will resemble oi zuki advancement, you have to step to balance the weapon.

M

Chucky
28th September 2006, 15:41
Jun (oi) zuki works a treat, nasty chappie approaches, game on - straight in with Junzuki before he can get any closer, his nose pops, Chucky walks off unharmed.
Thankyou

gordonfong
28th September 2006, 16:05
You asked if anyone can trace its provenance.

Could it come from Sumo or such like as they have a movement from shikodachi that makes a strike with the same side of the body as that is advancing?

From what Margaret has hinted at, could it come from kenjutsu where there are very little instances of "gyaku" type cuts/strikes? (I am not a swordsman, so that is just a pure guess before I get flamed)

Come on Martyn, what's your take?

Simon Keegan
28th September 2006, 16:54
Here's a curve-ball:
What's Oie Tsuki about?
I have my own theories, which I'll expand upon later, but after 30 years it still puzzles me. Anyone got any bright ideas? I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who can trace its provenance.

I believe practice of this technique instils fundamentals and principles that can be applied to many bunkai.
If you forget for a moment that Oi Tzuki is a stepping punch and break down what it is fundamentally composed of you will find:
1) One hand (ie the punch) moving forwards and the other hand (ie the hikite) moving backwards
2) the feet stepping in a sliding arc
Now, instead of standing four feet away from your partner, grab each other by the sleeve or lapel as in Judo. Now apply Oi Tzuki principle:
1) Move one hand forward and pull the other back, this pushes him to one "corner" and unbalances him
2) Slide your leading foot around the back of his leg - and you have a takedown that a Judoka would called an Osoto Gari.

You can apply a similar principle to a turning Gedan Barai. Instead of imagining an opponent behind you, have your partner in front of you in a clinch. Turn with Gedan Barai and he will be thrown across your leg - Tai Otoshi.

Just my opinion.

trevorg
28th September 2006, 19:30
Here's a curve-ball:
What's Oie Tsuki about?
I have my own theories, which I'll expand upon later, but after 30 years it still puzzles me. Anyone got any bright ideas? I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who can trace its provenance.

IMHO Oi Tsuki is the faster of oi and gyaku but not as powerful as it does not have the wind up from the ground upwards that gyaku does. It doesnt matter whether it is a punch, uraken or nukite, it derives simultaneously from the speed of body movement off the front leg, in a similar way to that of jabbing when boxing.

Therefore, it is a tool in your arsenal to be used when the purpose becomes clear.

Trevore Gilbert
(but I know nuffink, me)

Chris McLean
28th September 2006, 20:42
With proper posture, clean lines, snapping hip action with core contraction around the harra, speed throughout a continuation of the body’s momentum during the footwork and the proper mass penetration with impeccable release of power during focus. The correct timing of this sequence of events makes it is a wonderful technique. One of my favorites.

trevorg
28th September 2006, 21:06
With proper posture, clean lines, snapping hip action with core contraction around the harra, speed throughout a continuation of the body’s momentum during the footwork and the proper mass penetration with impeccable release of power during focus. The correct timing of this sequence of events makes it is a wonderful technique. One of my favorites.

Hi Chris

I've been trying for so many years but I just cant get to that level of perfection. I think I'm missing something or I just havent been taught right, but where does the hip snapping action come from when you step forward and lead off with the same upper limb ?

Trevor

trevorg
28th September 2006, 21:42
I hope this link comes out from youtube - havent done it before, but in the last kata by Yoshitaka Taira you can see both oi and gyaku and the differences between them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF5vgzEMJiw

Martyn Skipper
28th September 2006, 22:23
Some interesting and relevant stuff here. Thanks all. As a pure, stand-alone fighting technique, I remain convinced that it has no practical value at all. Stepping forward and hitting can simply never be fast enough to prevent being avoided (unlike gyaku and maeken tsukis).
However...
1) as one poster mentioned, a variant of it can be used when an opponent comes at one ("there is no first attack.." & all that)
2) certainly as another commented, it can be applied as a grasping / striking technique - an interpretation we use regularly in our dojo

My own opinion remains that as a training aid, it carries some merit. Lots of comments about posture, form, balance and movement. These are all relevant and pertinent (although it might be argued that plenty of other techniques can develop and hone the same principles).

I feel that oie tsuki evolved (possibly from sumo, possibly from naginata or similar- that is why I was interested in opinions of provenance- it feels Japanese to me) for two purposes:

Firstly in line basics it serves as a way to get students moving whils giving the coach the opportunity to see some movement over distance, to analyse and correct.

Secondly in ippon kumite, it allows the attacker to commit at full speed and power whilst still giving ukete the ample time to react (see my comments above about it being too slow for "real" combat).

I note that it does not appear in the older kata, and certainly not the Nahate forms, but appears in the newer kata (Pinan / Heian, Gekisai series etc).

Nyuck3X
28th September 2006, 23:27
Wow. I wasn't sure if this was a serious question.
One of the reasons I started MA training was because I was
blown away by Bruce Lee's lead hand. Enter the Dragon displays
this beautifully and yeah, I know, it's a movie....

If you are having trouble firing one off fast enough, then maybe you
need to get closer to your opponent and shorten up your stance.
It is not really a long range weapon.

Martyn Skipper
28th September 2006, 23:36
LEAD HAND. Yes. (jabs, snap punches etc.)
My point is, who would punch with their REAR hand (i.e. start in orthodox stance, and move into southpaw stance punching with the right hand whilst travelling forwards!)

trevorg
28th September 2006, 23:49
LEAD HAND. Yes. (jabs, snap punches etc.)
My point is, who would punch with their REAR hand (i.e. start in orthodox stance, and move into southpaw stance punching with the right hand whilst travelling forwards!)

Maybe I am missing something here. Traditionally, a southpaw is a person who leads with their right with their right leg forward, as opposed to the more usual position of left leg and left arm.

Whatever lead you are standing in, I dont see any merit in firing off first in gyaku and then shifting to oi, if I have understood it correctly. Assuming I was in a standard oi position and I was aware of ma-ai I would fire off immediately the lead hand.

You use whatever technique is appropriate to the moment.

trevorg
28th September 2006, 23:54
Think I got myself a bit mixed up there. In any event, I still believe Oi tsuki is or can be, a lightning fast strike (sen no sen perhaps) that moves in tune with the lead foot.

Nyuck3X
28th September 2006, 23:59
Ahh, I got ya. Sorry.

If you mean like in the first forward moving sequence in Kusanku Sho, one
possible reason is because a punch is not always a punch. Maybe there
is a throw or joint lock. When you step off line from an attack, one
way of closing the gap can be oi tsuki.

gmanry
29th September 2006, 01:02
I would have to say that the vast majority of karateka practicing modern karate have no idea how to apply oi tsuki.

Many people have already pointed out a lot of things that make the movement more useful. One of the things I like to point out is that it is NOT "linear," although so many schools of karate have made it so.

The emphasis on hip is over stated and people totally forget about the spine and shoulders. Particularly keeping the shoulders square is one of the biggest problems I have seen. It makes absolutely no sense anatomically but has become dogma for so many schools.

As others have pointed out, closing the gap and striking the opponent in his mid stride is an excellent use of this technique and I have used it successfully in many contact kumite situations.

Understanding how to use it while changing angles is crucial and a skill I seldom seen shown in karate dojo.

If you drop your assumptions of what it "is" then all sorts of possibilities open up. In the end it is just a movement.

Blackshield
29th September 2006, 10:03
found this little gem of a quote about richard norton of zen do kai, and hollywood fame:


"Re training...big kata man in the day and also a fastidious trainer. He would come in the dojo and for four hours do nothing but walk up the room doing lead foot lunges with lead hand punches...up and back, up and back, for four hours every day for six months, trying to get the technique just right.

One day, the rat pack, the hard core full contact fighters that eschewed kata and TMA were working out in the ring set up in the other part of the dojo when Richard walked by. One of them said, with a smart arsed sneer, "hey Sensei, you should come in here for a real workout." Richard said ok, climbed in the ring and knocked everyone of them out - eight in all - in the first fifteen seconds of every round with the lead hand punch he'd been practising."

Margaret Lo
29th September 2006, 14:53
Particularly keeping the shoulders square is one of the biggest problems I have seen. It makes absolutely no sense anatomically but has become dogma for so many schools.

...In the end it is just a movement.

If the attacker faces an unbalancing technique, the squared shoulder is important in minimizing opportunity for unbalance, since it retains the shoulder on top of the hip. But if you face only punching techniques and blocks, then a relaxed, extended shoulder is more natural.

M

Margaret Lo
29th September 2006, 15:15
Oizuki is an old technique and arises from conditions other than sport - which spawned the lead hand/reverse hand combinations of boxing, kickboxing and jiyu kumite.

What might be the conditions favoring oizuki? You are outdoors, rough/muddy terrain, darkness or sun glare, wearing armour, carrying weapons - all of which adds up to inability to bob up and down flicking a multitude of punches (twist an ankle? end of you). Your opponent is also in much the same condition and everyone is slower as a result. You step in behind your sword, knife, bo or punch to maximize power and kill the man already.

Meanwhile modern kickbox presumes smooth indoor floor, perfect light, unencumbered by gear, your techniques are commensurately faster and you wonder why bother with stepping in? And you're right, there's no need because you're not trying to kill your opponent. We can test this out by wearing cop gear and see which technique you prefer.

History and context matter.
M

gmanry
29th September 2006, 16:11
If the attacker faces an unbalancing technique, the squared shoulder is important in minimizing opportunity for unbalance, since it retains the shoulder on top of the hip. But if you face only punching techniques and blocks, then a relaxed, extended shoulder is more natural.

Margaret

That is assuming the hips should be square, with which I also disagree. However I do agree with you in general that the hips and shoulders have to be in alignment for good balance. Also to clarify, I am not talking about an extended shoulder. I am discussing the whole shoulder-spine-hip position in relation to one another.

My zenkutsu dachi is more akin to a honmei type position, but it is not exactly honmei. I gave up the squared zenkutsu dachi many years ago, as I found it to be anatomically questionable.

When you square the hips and shoulders you break the natural reinforcement that is given from the ball of the rear leg's foot (the heel has very little to do with giving you rootedness, but it does aid in proprioperception some, imo). However, to each their own. I would just encourage people to explore the possibilities, as that is what studying a martial art is really all about.

Casper Baar
29th September 2006, 16:23
Hi all,

Interesting.
The juntsuki (step-punch) is probably the most basic ingredient of irimi (entering). Some people call it the study of moving forward.

This article talks about it a bit.
http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/moving/inasuirimi/inasuirimi.html

regards,

Casper

Margaret Lo
29th September 2006, 17:12
Margaret

When you square the hips and shoulders you break the natural reinforcement that is given from the ball of the rear leg's foot (the heel has very little to do with giving you rootedness, but it does aid in proprioperception some, imo). However, to each their own. I would just encourage people to explore the possibilities, as that is what studying a martial art is really all about.

I'm having trouble visualizing your point, I find myself much more stable with hips square with my back foot flat and pushing against the ground with my heel/midfoot. With hips at hanmi, my reach is better but I find myself less stable overall.

Victor Smith
30th September 2006, 11:39
Of course there are other options, such as the use of the stepping punch as a strike, diverts the mind from other possibilites, that of the karate armbar.

To try and put this into words I'd share:

An opponent offers their left arm say to grab you before striking.

With your left arm you roll into a grab of their wrist as you shift say 20 degrees to the right and allow your right foot to slide back to a classic left front stance.

Then your left hand chambers, with the normal rotation as you hold their arm. That rolls their arm slightly over, and you start your stepping punch, not to strike them but to slide the bottom of your arm across their triceps insertion....

So you chamber as you step and punch, and in the process stick their face into the ground, with a variation of a rolling arm bar.

Works for me, and it is also a pure stepping punch, you're just not hitting anything.

If you really work on every kata variation of that movement, especially the various leading techniques, you'll find there are quite a few ways to make the same usage work against various attacks.

pleasantly,

gmanry
17th October 2006, 05:46
I'm having trouble visualizing your point, I find myself much more stable with hips square with my back foot flat and pushing against the ground with my heel/midfoot. With hips at hanmi, my reach is better but I find myself less stable overall.

I don't really know how to answer you succinctly. I would start by saying that you can't push with your heel and midfoot to move forward. It isn't anatomically possible. All motion in this form pivots around the ball of the foot and is activated by shifting the weight forward through the knees and hips. You can brace rearward with your heel and midfoot, however. This is, according to physics, a push, but it is not forward motion, it is resistance to motion coming at you. It is reactive, not active.

So, my stance is based on the forward thirds of my feet, with knees bent and the heels brushing the floor. In some instances you might even be able to slide a piece of paper under my heels, particularly on the rear foot.

This allows the legs to push and absorb a lot more, without being overly fatiquing or out of natural balance. You get the advantage of motion transfer from all the joints involved and nothing becomes locked or static.

http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/techniques/zenkutsudachi.html

The above is a set of pictures from Shotokai. The first is a picture of a very rigid zenkutsu dachi. The second is one similar to, but still not exactly the same as what I am describing.

What I am describing would not be so forward lunging, as it destroys the natural stability of the position. What he is doing would be about a quarter into shifting to the next stance as far as his forward knee is concerned.

Hope this places things in better context.

Jay Vail
22nd October 2006, 01:27
For many years I practiced the step through punch in drills and in kata, but never once, until a nationally ranked fighter (who learned the trick from Joe Lewis) showed me how to do it properly, did I ever successfully use it in kumite. Now I use it all the time with great success. It is a deceptive technique that enables you to strike with great power and speed.

The secret of the technique is to realize that the manner in which it is practiced in kata and in drill is wrong. This may sound like heresy, but bear with me.

There are underlying principles of movement and body mechanics, as well as place and distance, that are common to all close combat arts, armed or unarmed. It helps to have a grasp of these principles in order to see why the step through punch as traditionally taught and practiced is in error.

The core principle is known as "time". George Silver, a 16th century British fencer, wrote the most cogent explanation of time. At its simplest, time refers to the speed in which a part of your body moves. Different parts move at different speeds. These differences have important implications in combat. Silver recognizes three types of time:
• Time of the hand, the speed at which the hand moves.
• Time of the body, the speed at which the body moves.
• Time of the foot or feet, the speed at which the foot or feet move.
Consideration of the speed of movement for parts of the body dictates for Silver how one must move in combat to attack or defend. Silver divides these between true times, those which are proper methods of movement, and false times, those which are improper. The true times are:
Time of the hand.
Time of the hand and body.
Time of the hand, body and foot.
Time of the hand, body and feet.
The false times are:
Time of the foot.
Time of the foot and body.
Time of the foot, body and hand.
Time of the feet, body and hand.
Time of the hand is the most important. Silver explicitly states that in the attack, the hand moves before the foot:

"The true fights be these: whatsoeuer is done with the hand before the foot or feet is true fight. The false fights be these: whatsoeuer is done with the foot or feet before the hand, is false, because the hand is swifter then the foot, the foot or feet being a slower mouer then the hand: the hand in that maner of fight is tied to the time of the foot or feet, and being tied thereto, hath lost his freedome, and is made thereby as slow in his motions as the foot or feet: and therefor that fight is false."

Adherence to Silver's principle of time means that the hand always moves first, the body following, the foot or feet moving last. Usually this results in the blow connecting before the passing foot hits the ground. Silver is adamant that the fighter never ties the speed of the hand to the speed of the foot, which is what happens if the technique is delivered according to the teachings of traditional karate ryuha.

If a fighter does not deliver the blow according to true time, he risks a stop hit because he will have moved into the "true place" without delivering a blow. (The true place is the distance from which a fighter can deliver a blow without taking a step, a very dangerous place.) The fact that the traditional step through punch invites a stop hit is the reason no one does the technique in kumite. It simply does not work in a fight. However, if you follow Silver's principles, the technique in fact works quite well. It is simple and practical. In fact, once you are accustomed to doing it, you'll see many full contact fighters in UFC doing it unconsciously now and then.

Here's how to do it. It's really easy. Practice against a heavy bag. Stand about a step away from the bag so you cannot touch it with either hand when you reach out. Start the rear fist moving as if in a reverse punch. Push yourself forward with the rear foot so your trunk follows the fist as it heads toward the bag. Allow the shoulders to turn with the punch. Then allow the hips to turn as well as the rear foot comes forward to become the lead foot. Don't worry about your stance. You will naturally end up in zenkutsu dachi, although it usually will not be the deep stance of most kata, but rather a short forward stance. You should not concentrate on the stance anyway. The important thing is to concentrate on delivering the fist to the target with full commitment, and just let the body and foot follow the blow.

Some people theorize that the passing foot must be planted before the fist is delivered to maximize the blow's power. It may be that you can deliver a more powerful blow that way, although I have my doubts about that. However, all the power in the world is wasted if it cannot be brought to bear because your opponent knocked you out while you were stepping and before you could punch. In any case, I have seen guys knocked down and knocked out by step through punches delivered in true time as I have described.

Before any flame wars begin over this, I suggest that you try this manner of executing the step through punch -- seriously try it.