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Jim Sorrentino
4th October 2006, 22:08
Greetings All,

On Saturday, Sept. 30, I attended one day of a two-day seminar on Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu with Roy Goldberg-sensei. Goldberg-sensei is a 6th dan and a member/representative of the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai. The seminar was hosted by the Kim Studio, a tae kwon do school founded in 1964 by Ki Whang Kim (see http://www.kim-studio.com/). The studio has hosted Goldberg-sensei many times, and on one occasion, has hosted Goldberg-sensei's teacher, Hayawo Kiyama-sensei.

The day I attended, practice ran from 12:00 to 4:00, with a short break around 2:00. There were about 30 participants, ranging from tae kwon do beginners and senior students, to seasoned jujutsuka from Virginia, New York, and Massachusetts. There were a couple of other aikidoka there besides me. Goldberg-sensei brought one of his students, Gino, who took most of the ukemi.

The head of Kim Studio, James Roberts, Jr., and his students, made all the participants feel welcome. The practice environment was somewhat challenging. The mat was the roll-up wrestling kind, and it covered only about a quarter of the well-polished wooden floor. There was not a lot of rolling and falling that day. Everyone worked together well, and trained with attention, intensity, and appropriate care for their training partners.

Goldberg-sensei focused on breaking balance at the moment of contact, mostly in response to katate-dori. He also did several techniques from kata-dori and kosa-dori, as well as mune-tsuki and ushiro-katate-dori.

I took ukemi for Goldberg-sensei several times. He is an excellent technician, with clear and powerful movement. His
balance-breaking skills were first-rate. Just as important, he was thoroughly attentive to all the participants, no matter how inexperienced, and he was a gentleman. In fact, he began the seminar by introducing Gino, thanking him for coming, and presenting him with a hand-made knife by Bud Nealy. It was quite moving to see Goldberg-sensei's care and concern for his student.

We hope to host Goldberg-sensei in the DC-MD-VA area in 2007. He is an accessible and generous teacher. If you have a chance to train with him, you should do so!

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.

allan
5th October 2006, 20:01
PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.

I suggest you try sending him a PM Jim. We try to maintain a civil environment on this forum.

Please review the aikijujutsu forum posting guidelines.

Al

Jim Sorrentino
5th October 2006, 22:28
Al,

According to Posting Guideline #3, "Those that offer responses to questions should likewise be prepared to back up their facts and opinions with sources, experience and/or credentials for others to take into consideration."

In my review, I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials. How is that uncivil?

Jim Sorrentino

allan
6th October 2006, 00:28
Hello Jim,

I am not a moderator and so this will be my last post on this topic.

I am aware of the running battle that you have had with Dan at the aikidojournal site. At e-budo, and especially in the aikijujutsu forum the moderators and members strive to maintain a particular atmosphere. I have included some specific elements from the posting guidelines below, and I have bolded the segments which struck me as most relevant to this case.

Whatever your intentions Jim, it feels like you are rolling in here looking for a fight.

Ultimately it is not my decision what is said in this forum. I do ,however, appreciate the general feeling of the discourse here and am doing my bit to try and preserve it.

------------------
This "aikijujutsu" section of e-budo is an academic-style discussion and archive forum, focusing on arts and traditions that incorporate aiki principles and methods specifically.

POSTING GUIDELINES

In addition to the four basic e-budo rules for participation, I would offer a few more points to consider before contributing:

1) If you are new to this forum, please have a look around first and get a feel for the atmosphere and manner before posting. Each forum has it's own feel and characteristic.

4) Please consider your words and temper your emotions (tone) before posting. Flames and inappropriate posts will not be tolerated. Inappropriate posts and threads will be nuked, edited, pruned or moved as deemed necessary to facilitate fluid navigation and timely research throughout this informational resource.

Brian Owens
6th October 2006, 08:12
...In my review, I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials. How is that uncivil?
It looks like your first several paragraphs, which otherwise would have been an interesting insight into the seminar, were simply bait to lure readers into reading your "question" to Dan.

That "question" really had nothing to do with the seminar, the stated topic of the thread, other than that you happended to ask the question at the seminar.

You say "I reported Goldberg-sensei's questions about Dan Harden's experience and credentials," but in reading the review it seems to be your questions or, as you say, "someone else's," not Goldberg-sensei's.

It appears to me that your thread has an ulterior motive, and should have been titled for what it was...or better yet, left out completely.

George Kohler
6th October 2006, 08:15
At e-budo, and especially in the aikijujutsu forum the moderators and members strive to maintain a particular atmosphere. I have included some specific elements from the posting guidelines below, and I have bolded the segments which struck me as most relevant to this case.

Great point, Allen!

I will not step on any toes here in this forum. That's unless Nathan informed us that he was on vacation. Since he has not informed us that he would be away, we will wait till Nathan responds to this thread.

Mark Jakabcsin
6th October 2006, 12:54
Nothing has been asked of Dan that hasn't been asked of many other people over the years. If you delete this thread there are many others that need to go.

Personally I think Jim should leave the moderating to Nathan. He has done a fine job over the years.

MJ

P Goldsbury
6th October 2006, 14:00
Yes,

I think the issue is in the PS:

----------
PS --- By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has." And he recommended that when Dan posts on the subject of aikido on the various Internet forums, aikidoka (and others) should ask Dan: 1) what is his rank in Daito Ryu? 2) who gave him that rank? and 3) what is his present relationship to the Kodokai? Dan, if you're out there, I'm asking.
----------

Of course, it is not "uncivil" to give the opinions of someone who never posts on E-Budo about someone who does, but it still leaves a bad taste. It is second- or third-hand information. It also lessens my opinion of Mr Goldberg, who, apparently, reads various AIKIDO forums and believes that knowing Mr Harden's rank and relationship to the Kodokai in DAITO-RYU has an essential connection with his posts on aikido. I completely disagree and believe that Mr Harden's posts on aikido stand or fall on the reasoning behind them. But, am I disagreeing with Mr Goldberg or Mr Sorrentino, or the person who Mr Sorrentino cites as asking the question about Mr Harden?

This thread, and the specious reasoning behind it, smells terrribly of some recent threads in Baffling / Bad Budo, with which I am closely acquainted as moderator. Like George, I believe that the various forums in E-Budo have different 'tones' (funiki, in Japanese). Baffling / Bad Budo is rougher than Japanese Language and needs more aggressive moderating.

George, perhaps you should look at Dante's Divina Comedia, if you have not done so before, and expand the choices available in E-Budo.

Best wishes,

don
6th October 2006, 14:30
George, perhaps you should look at Dante's Divina Comedia, if you have not done so before, and expand the choices available in E-Budo.
?!!

LOL!

Dan Harden
6th October 2006, 14:40
Jim, Jim
Still stinging huh?
All this is harking back to the Aikiweb thread where....you..... claimed I was teaching Daito ryu (KodoKai no less) and then Katori Shinto ryu. Both of which I have categorically denied both here and in several other places....for years. For the record, I am not even a member of the Kodo kai, Jim. Nor do I do DR. I don’t even train in a Gi. I do MMA. As I have repeatedly posted here and in many places. In fact it was my posting on Aikiweb about the superior aspects of MMA and its short training/learning curve for winning competency against a lengthier one for Aikido that you initially responded to in the first place.

Your choosing now to attempt to relegate the debate to rank, affiliation, or intellectual discourse is transparent and seems rather desperate. As one of your seniors in Aikido who knows you said to me, “He doesn’t know the stuff you were writing about and can’t respond to it, so he's frustrated. He agrees that you should stop talking, come up and at least take a shot at having your body try to demonstrate your uderstanding on me n person.”. If you come up the second week of Nov. I might be able to introduce you to a current world champ in the UFC. And Jim, you need to learn a truth. Your “understanding” or lack thereof is in -your hands- not your keyboard, your style, or rank, or teachers. There is no place to run to for support-on that day. Since I have now met others -in person- who know you, apparently, my earlier assessment of you was accurate.

As for Roy. I don't know the guy you talked, or what was said to who or the reason for the sarcasm when he told you I only trained with him for one day, But, if you'd like to spend time learning DR- I could not recommend a better school or teacher. They are very close knit and under the radar, but top shelf...or apparently ….so I have heard. I think I -might- recall –that- day and a party or two on long island. Big guy right? 6'-2" or so, real “Greek, Adonis” type with a thick head of hair, great sense of humor and a sharp disdain for internet jibber jabber? I hear he is a hell of swordsman too. Has a nice tanto and Katana, hand-forged for him by “some guy” he met once. :rolleyes:

Anyway as an aside, I might suggest to you that you learn what Tatemai and Honmi means, particularly in regards to talking to Koryu teachers and their relationships. Wait…you just did.

You really need to take a close look at what you’re doing, get a grip and stop embarrassing yourself. Now, even guys who know you and trained with you are apologizing to me…for your behavior.

Dan

P.S. George
Roy's a great guy and been frustated at the internet before. He's also one if the funniet people I know. I'll call him about this. But really, don't attribute anything negative-to- him. I think I have a handle on what went down.

Dan Harden
6th October 2006, 15:12
Edit

Guys, Thanks.
I am told Jim is a fairly decent fellow. He lost it a bit with some recent postings. He won't P.M. me. He won't come up. Its ugly But lets allow him room to get over it. The Koryu jujutsu moderator just simply removed his attempted post there a few weeks ago.
Its Nathans call. I just hate to see us turn into some internet gadflies.

Cheers
Dan

Samurai Jack
6th October 2006, 19:10
Hello everyone, :)

I would like to chime in like a bum knee. But before I do, I would like to say I don't know either of these men (Jim or Dan) and if I seem to be addressing them personally, then it is my unintentional error. I don't know the background of either man. But, there is a part of this thread, mechanically that has been pointed out, that warrants further discussion. Yea, and of course I am chiming on in. heee...he...he.. Rationally that is. I am not going to make the water boil any hotter.

First of all concerning Jim's post, to some Jim did do a no...no... which irate some it does.. Lest it be said my good fellows tis was of a bit of political maneuvering.

If ya got an axe to grind, tis better not to use a Trojan Horse. Tis make some grumpy, it does. Just as my writing style does for some. More evidently, I would not think it is a serious infraction, just annoying to some in common social venue. I say this of course apart from the realm of this forum, for which the Moderators decide any infraction.

Second of all, per the realm of martial arts community it is expected and reasonable to ask a person their credentials or author from which they speak upon topics they position themselves in word or deed as an expert. This is not unreasonable. Per reading Dan’s many posts here, not all, on the subject of Aikido/ Aikijujutsu ( for the purpose of discussion, I refer to these arts as interchangeable and without duality, and will refer to both in this manner as “The Art”) speaks in an educated manner, in authority and of seasoned experience. I would not be surprise if an unlearned person of The Art read his posts could not help to think of him as an authority of The Art.


Lastly, we must find the facts. First we ask Dan to state his experience and authority in The Art and other arts. We have been told by one of his teachers in The Art that he has minimal experience. There is no reason to believe his instructor is not being truthful, and providing the answer as a matter of fact. Until, background information is provided about the relationship between Dan and Roy Goldberg An indication is the fact that Dan indicated in this thread he respects Roy Goldberg. Therefore, I don’t think it is unreasonable, but rather a reasonability, to inquire a person’s background that speaks from a well educated point, or as an authority technically and such on an art.



To conclude, in the greater martial arts world it is necessary and acceptable to question a person’s martial arts background, especially depending on the way the present themselves and in the manner in which they speak. Being skeptical and inquisitive are the devices in this modern martial arts age in which we determine if a person misrepresenting themselves or misleading leading others on that persons authority, skill and knowledge. Society doesn’t allow us to kill each other to determine skill and authority. Therefore, what is socially acceptable in many other professional areas such as science is questioning those who speak. To determine who is full of bull manure and who isn’t. Also questioning per the Internet allows us to get an idea of who we are speaking with, thus aiding in filling in the gaps that otherwise are not absent when talking to someone in person. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with Dan laying things out factual. It is his choice on how he wants to do that or if he wants to do it at all, based on Jim’s post indicating Dan’s experience in The Art.

That's a rap folks!
:)

Chris Li
6th October 2006, 20:26
We have been told by one of his teachers in The Art that he has minimal experience.

Has he ever said that Roy Goldberg was his instructor? I was always under the impression that he had trained under Kiyama, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention...

In any case, I agree with Peter, posts should stand under their own weight, unless you are trying to refute a specific factual statement within a posting. Attacking the credibility of the author of a post rather than dealing with the issues contained within the posting itself is, IMO, far too common a tactic.

Best,

Chris

kokumo
6th October 2006, 21:18
Has he ever said that Roy Goldberg was his instructor? I was always under the impression that he had trained under Kiyama, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention...


Although Dan seems to feel that he has previously been clear, quite honestly, I can't recall any prior statement -- public or private -- as clear as the one he made today that he "is not a member of the Kodokai," although I do recall clear statements that he does not teach either DR or TSKSR.

Were he a member of the Kodokai, living on the East Coast as he does, it would be passing strange for him not to have trained somewhat more than appears to have been the case with Goldberg, who is the East Coast Representative of that group.

In that regard, Dan's definitive statement that his perspective is MMA-based is a welcome one which should eliminate the prior potential for erroneous inferences regarding his background.

But what I really want to know is this: As long as the issue of "academic-style" is in play, is there some guy out there who can forge me a copy of Wittgenstein's Poker?

Best,

FL

Dan Harden
6th October 2006, 22:39
Fellas

This is what I meant by gad flies.
Listen, you missed the point AND humor of my post. I was going to just leave it as I trained one day, but the humor and nuance went right over everyones head. So, to expand.
I trained in DR prior to meeting Kiyama Sensei and Goldberg sensei. I was, and am in fact a friend of Roys, him having spent time at my home, where -we- forged him a katana and me, at his, where we trained. I also was a member in good standing for years in the Kodokai. I am no longer. But I did MMA, before and all the while training with Kiyama Sensei and Roy and I did MMA after. Knowing my bent for MMA I had some great private training. But thats no one's business.
The Kodokai is a very closed, quiet group and does not appreciate a web presense. He will be informed of this by me.

Now, the parts you missed. Tatamai and honmi is more or less this:
Tatemai -is the face you wear to preserve the group, or statis quo of things or to make a point.
Honmi- is more or less the truth if things.
You do not always express the full truth but yet its not a lie. and the truth is reserved for insiders.
Roy was more or less having that guy on-I said he has a great sense of humor- and it was his way of saying mind your own business, and getting a big dig in at me for not training and being on the net. :rolleyes: Which I am sure I am going to get an earful of on the phone.

If you want to train DR I could not reccomend a better group.

Since they N-E-V-E-R post and are more like a closed Koryu group. I am done responding and contrary to Jims rudeness we should leave them out of any discussion. Speaking about people in the third party is simply not polite, and they are good folks.
Cheers
Dan

Chris Li
6th October 2006, 22:48
Tatamai and honmi is more or less this

Not to be picky, but "Tatemae" (建前, lit. "facade")and "Honne" (本音, lit. "true voice or sound") :).

Best,

Chris

Dan Harden
6th October 2006, 22:56
Thanks Chris

Dan

Dan Harden
6th October 2006, 23:23
In any case, I agree with Peter, posts should stand under their own weight, unless you are trying to refute a specific factual statement within a posting. Attacking the credibility of the author of a post rather than dealing with the issues contained within the posting itself is, IMO, far too common a tactic.

Best,

Chris

Good point again
I think you and Peter hit the nail on the head.
When all that many guys have is their "art" box and experience in that box and not much else to show- then they judge others by their "art box." Its the only way they know how to think and function. They cannot explain their every effort being taken apart any other way. It just doesn't fit in their "art" box. Further still, if it is done so with fluid relaxed power. In the discussions of internal skills when they have nothing to add they resort to this kind of nonsense.

Cheers
Dan

Arman
9th October 2006, 01:50
I am not one to get into dissecting all the assumptions that are flying around here, on both sides.

I would just say that 1) Jim's post was certainly calling Dan out. Ok. So what? Which leads to point number 2) Any of us that post on the internet in any kind of authoritative way on a particular subject should not get too upset by being called out. Isn't that one of the purposes of a public forum like E-budo? To stand behind your point of view? Asking for credentials is not so crazy. Seems like we do it a lot on the forums.

Jim asked. Dan clarified (to a point). Unless they want to continue this on their own privately, I think this thread is used up.

Arman Partamian

Nathan Scott
9th October 2006, 04:02
Guys, I actually am out of town right now. Sorry George, I thought about letting you guys know, but it is typically well behaved here.

I have to make this short, because I have to get going and typing on this Japanese computer is killing me.

Having read the whole thread, it appears to me that there have been valid points made in regards to this `call out` (where is the quotes button on this thing?). All things considered, it seems that this thread has served a purpose. On the other hand, I don`t think anything else useful can come of it, so I`ll lock it after this.

A couple of points I would make:

1) Does Mr. Goldberg know you intended on posting his comments about someone else on the internet? My guess is no, which makes it pretty rude. On the other hand, I learned a long time ago that what you say in open seminars to people you don`t know can go anywhere, and when someone asks you what you think of someone (or something similar), it is either because they are a student of theirs or they have some other reason why they are asking, and as such the response always seems to get back to them. So I figure that`s kind of what you get for answering such questions to non-students (I usually just say `I don`t know`)

(I`ll write more later - gotta go///)

Nathan Scott
9th October 2006, 06:59
Anyway,

2) The point I was trying to make in the posting guidelines is that, if you are going to post opinions, be prepared to back up your opinions with experience and/or ranking (which gives an indication as to the level of initiation a person is supposed to have). On the other hand, no one is forced to disclose such facts if they would rather not say publicly, and there are valid reasons why someone might not wish to publisize their membership in a particular art.

However, if you DON`T choose to be forthcoming about your experience and background, don`t be surprised if others start ignoring your posts or even treating you like a troll. I put up that guidline as a headsup to those who just like to blabber to see their name on the internet, or to play devil`s advocate on every subject that comes up. But I don`t believe we have a right to demand credentials from someone unless we are thinking of joining their dojo.

##

I do appreciate that the posters that followed the opening post attempted to keep the peace right off the bat. There are definitely better ways to handle something like credential debates, and if it wasn`t for the quality of the follow up replies, I would have just deleted the thread.

BTW, I`ll be back from Japan on the 13th, and won`t be using these crazy computers after this post, so ya`ll behave!

Regards,

Nathan Scott
16th October 2006, 02:34
Hi all,

Mr. Sorrentino, PM'd me and asked that I post his response to the question I raised in my first post. Since I did raise the question, I'll post this last follow-up to this locked thread:


For the record, at his seminar, Goldberg-sensei said to me in front of several people (Steve Kotev and Tim Andersen, to name two) that I should feel free to post his comments about Dan Harden. In fact, I sent Goldberg-sensei a draft of my review before posting it to this forum. Goldberg-sensei explicitly approved. If possible, would you please share this information on the locked thread?

Moving on...

Mark Murray
22nd October 2006, 23:22
Work sent me to Boston for a few days. Before I left for Boston, I contacted Dan Harden and asked if he'd meet me. I said I'd like to start learning the internal stuff. Once in Boston, I met Dan at my hotel after work one day and we walked over to the Commons.

I ended up learning a lot of things. One is that Dan is a great guy. Working out with him for the short time I had was a pleasure. I went back and forth from, "Okay how did you do that" to laughing. Most of the time I forgot I was even standing in the Boston Commons.

Two is that I just couldn't push him over. And let me tell -- that was a very disconcerting feeling. I tried pushing with both hands on his chest, tried pulling him sideways using one of his arms, and then placing a hand on the side of his head and pushing. He just stood there relaxed. I don't know how to explain some of what I felt there. Part of it was just like pushing and nothing was budging. Almost like putting your hand on a wall, leaning into it, pushing, and it's just there not moving, but not nearly as hard or unyielding as a wall's surface. And parts of it I could feel that I'd lost my own balance as I started to push. In those instances, I was pushing and Dan was moving his center in such a way that he knew where I was losing my balance or what foot held most of my weight.

It was an eye opening display of some of what he can do. I say some because I also got to feel a small portion of the power he can generate. Another example of this relaxed power was that he held out both hands and asked me to throw him in a judo type throw. I grabbed both arms and that was as far as I got. There were no openings. I never got to the tsukuri, or fit, because I couldn't even get kuzushi. In fact, there was a kuzushi but it was on me. If you've ever seen some of these sayings, "keep weight underside", "extend ki", "keep one point", well, I got to experience them first hand. Dan also showed me the "push out exercise" where I had hold of him but couldn't step forward. Although I didn't feel like I was overly weighted down, I still couldn't take a step. My feet just felt rooted to the ground.

The no-inch punch was amazing. And yes, there was no distance but the force was definitely there. I wouldn't say it felt exactly like a punch, which is more of a percussive feel. No, this was more like a ball of energy/power hitting me and shockwaves vibrating out from where it entered my body. Next thing I know, I'm picking myself up off the ground a few feet away.

All the while, Dan is explaining how all of it is done. He was open and willing to share information on what he was doing and how it was done. He showed me some exercises to do and I tried some of them. Try is a good word. It'll take some time doing them, especially the hanmi. LOL. But in the short time I was there, I will say that they definitely helped.

The stuff Dan is doing is good stuff. I wish I'd been able to visit his dojo and meet everyone else, but I'm hoping that my next visit, I'll be able to do that.

Ron Tisdale
23rd October 2006, 15:29
Thanks for the review Mark! It was also nice seeing you again this weekend.

Best,
Ron

Jim Sorrentino
23rd October 2006, 20:42
Hello Mark,

Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy. :)

Dan, my invitation to you still stands (see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287). At this point, it looks like we would have to do it in 2007. By the way, I asked about your rank and experience in Daito-ryu (in http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35461 --- now locked, alas) because in many of your posts on AikiWeb, e-budo, Aikido Journal, and other internet fora, you hint that you know something more, and that you have studied extensively with senior Daito-ryu teachers. You then imply strongly that this should give your opinion some additional authority.

A typical example is in the Iaido-L archives (March 1999, #229, http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9903&L=iaido-l&T=0&P=22915), in which you said, "As a student Of Kiyama Hayawo (North American Director Of Daito Ryu Kodo Kai) and Roy Goldberg (Shingen) East Coast director, I wish to shed some light on this person and his affiliation with the Kodo Kai. [...] As an aside, perhaps it would aid those in discussing the Kodo Kai, to realize that under Kiyama it may take fifteen years of supervised regular training to reach Mokuroku. For the fortunate few who have felt his technique, it can be quickly discerned that he is a man of outstanding character and humility, and excruciatingly effective."

For what it's worth, I'm satisfied with your answer to Roy Goldberg-sensei's question. As Fred Little noted, your definitive statement that your perspective is based on mixed martial arts is a welcome one. I'm far more interested in studying aikido, its antecedents, and related arts, than the various combat sports.

Also, Dan, as for your claim that you talked to my friends or seniors in aikido, well, please name them. Not one of our mutual acquaintances has contacted me about these exchanges. And as far as I know, they are not a tactful group. :)

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

Mark Murray
23rd October 2006, 21:37
Hello Mark,

Thanks for the review! The next time you're in the DC area, please let me know --- maybe you can stop by the dojo and show me some of what you're working on --- unless Dan swore you to secrecy. :)



Hello Jim,
I'd be a very poor example of anything. :) It's all new to me. But the offer is appreciated. I hope that you get a chance to meet Dan because he can show and explain things way better than I ever could.

Thanks,
Mark

Dan Harden
23rd October 2006, 22:22
You know Jim, in the end you are going to get the opposite of what you hoped to accomplish. Either way this goes-few will be pleased.

For starters
That letter you linked too? Was written with the expressed permission of The East Coast director and was read to him prior. Surprise!......
As well, I was publicly thanked both for -it- (and a letter that appeared in Aikido Journal) with copies of that journal passed around at a private training session with Kiyama Shihan and others in the room.

Even that is more than you should be entitled to know or have been told.
1. You need an education in Koryu politics, relationships and being set-up.
2. As well as understanding, obedience, and loyalty.
You are talking about family business, and days gone by.

With that I'll remain silent.....Although there is so much more I can say.
All you are doing is to endear me to those who understand Koryu, and speaking volumes to those who knew me then, and know me now. By taking the hit.....I win.
You on the other hand, are hurting your reputation and comng across like a dullard.


I'm not interested in telling you where I was or those I was with who know you. Nor do I care if you dismiss it.
You can't do the jo work, push out exercises, or much of anything else in-depth that has been discussed on these forums. So, just continue one with what you are doing.....Couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.

Quite Frankly I'm shocked your post is still here.

Dan

Dan Harden
23rd October 2006, 22:26
Awe common Mark.

It was just all muscle and ...what did Jim call it?....combat sports!!
It low level meat head stuff? Couldn't ya tell?


And of all the men...... in all the world..... Jim is the last person I'd want to know anyway.

Lets go visit him in ten -more- years and see how he's doing?

Cheers
Dan

Tim Mailloux
23rd October 2006, 23:50
Dan,
I finally got around to reading the thread on AikiWeb, what a waste of time that was. I really respect the way you handled yourself. I look forward to finally meeting & training with you when your schedule clears up.

Tim

Dan Harden
24th October 2006, 00:36
Tim

I try not to pay attention too closely when people start lashing out. It just means they ran out of anything substantive to say. But, thanks for noticing.

The net is a wierd place VS face to face or hand to hand. It's like the fellow you wrote me about and what he thinks meeting and knowing me and then.....this ...uhm...stuff you read on the net....oyh! The funny thing is what often happens when you do meet those who didn't even like you on the net.


Cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
24th October 2006, 23:29
I've ended up merging a new thread about Dan Harden with the existing seminar thread which was apparently an excuse to call out Dan on his experience and credentials. I though that locking this thread after it ran its course would be the end of it, but apparently a personal dispute on Aiki Web is being taken here for some reason.

Whether the questions are reasonable or not, an answer has already been provided publicly. It's time to move on, or take the discussion to PM/Emails (or back to Aiki Web). The rest of us don't need it here. Each posting should be evaluated based on what you know of the contributor. If you have issues with a contributor, or you feel they aren't being forthcoming about their ranks or formal training, then just don't read their posts anymore. But unless someone has something factual, relevant, and/or non-inflamatory to add, this subject and thread is done.

XXOO,

Jim Sorrentino
28th December 2009, 17:03
Greetings All,

Unfortunately, I unwittingly brought Dan's reputation into question. I regret that, and I apologize to Dan for doing so.

You may read the full text at AikiWeb, at
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17397

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino

Nathan Scott
2nd January 2010, 07:38
Since Jim revived this thread and posted a link to a post at aikiweb, I posted a reply to this subject to the thread at Aikiweb.

Following is the content of my post:


Hi all,

I have a feeling this subject will never be fully resolved. However, since Jim posted a link to this topic over on an old thread at e-budo, I decided to contact the North American DR AJJ Kodokai Headquarters and obtain permission from their Secretary to post their perspective regarding these inquiries into Dan's past involvement with the Kodokai. I post the following in hopes that this topic might someday be laid to rest, and that Dan's methods will eventually be judged based on their own merit, rather than on assumptions from unsubstantiated rumors about his background.

Again, I must stress that the following statements are my opinions. Questions 1 and 2: Dan began training with Kiyama in the late 1980's. Dan received some number of rank certificates in DR from Kiyama and/or Roy acting under Kiyama's direction. Question 3: Kiyama and Dan eventually ended their training relationship after some time, perhaps about 9 years, for reasons that remain private, and Dan left the Kodokai. Kiyama declared Dan "hamon", and now says of Dan that he "does not know this person." Roy, as Kiyama's student, backs up Kiyama.

Late 1980's? Yonezawa Katsumi left for Germany in 1988, at which time Kiyama Sensei was given control of North America. Goldberg Sensei opened his New York State dojo in 1991. If Dan received any ranking from either Kiyama Sensei or Goldberg Sensei, then it is something that has not been recorded in the record books here in America or in Japan.

Daito-ryu is known for being extremely anal about record keeping, and the Kodokai is no exception. The Secretary in fact looked through all the ranking and enrollment books over the past 37 years in North America, and stated that there is no mention of Dan Harden's name anywhere. What that means is that Dan did not ever train at the NA Headquarters dojo under Kiyama Sensei; did not ever travel to Japan to train with the Japanese Shihan; and was not ever registered as a member of the art. That being said, membership is only offered once a kyu rank of 6th or above has been issued, so it is possible to train in a Kodokai dojo for a limited amount of time and not be a member of the art. Only limited information is taught to non-members, and Kiyama Sensei in fact often mixes in old judo techniques and principles during training with non-members (or as warmup techniques) in order to limit the amount of Kodokai teachings that are distributed outside the "gates". Regardless, Kiyama Sensei's exposure to Daito-ryu was strictly from the Kodokai line up until about 1995.

Kiyama Sensei has always lived on the West Coast - not the East Coast. Goldberg Sensei is the East Coast Representative, and coordinates training activities for the East Coast. He sometimes hosts open seminars on the East Coast in which Kiyama Sensei is invited to teach, and where non-members are allowed to train. Training records for activities on the East Coast are retained by Goldberg Sensei, so the NA Headquarters is not able to state what extent Dan trained there, or for how long. However, Dan's name was brought up to Kiyama Sensei ca. 2002, and his response was "Who?". Kiyama Sensei is not upset with Dan, nor did not have a falling out. It was not a spiteful statement, he simply did not know his name.

He was also not issued "hamon" (expulsion), because he was never registered as a member of the art. You cannot expel someone who is not a member. The Kodokai simply does not appreciate Dan's implying a deeper relationship with them than what really existed.

While it is likely that Dan could have settled this matter very quickly by posting documentation such as pictures of himself taking ukemi for Kiyama, copies of his rank certificates, and other evidence of his past membership in the Kodokai, he refused to do so because he believed (correctly, in my opinion) that it would cast Goldberg and Kiyama in an unflattering light.

Pictures from seminars and swords given as gifts do not prove membership, but simply indicate some type of involvement. If there are rank certificates he or anyone else would like to have validated, the NA Kodokai would in fact be interested in seeing them. Be advised that seminar participation certificates were and are often given out, but these would be very hard to confuse with ranks since the text is all written in English.

As a former student of Roy Goldberg Sensei and Hayawo Kiyama Sensei, I can attest to the fact publicly that Mr. Dan Harden was a member of the Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai.

Hi Howard. Please feel free to post publicly or privately what your endorsement is based on.

* *

Folks, there is no reason for this to turn into another heated debate. So tell you what. As I've posted several times before on e-budo:

Contact the NA Kodokai directly. While they are not very interested in becoming involved with any of this publicly, they stated they are willing to answer any questions anyone wishes to submit to them. Dan himself is welcome to contact them if he is confused about his own past experiences. If this is going to become a heated discussion, like it always does, then feel free to take this discussion off the forums and sort it out directly with Dan and the NA Kodokai once and for all.

Here, again, is the contact information for the NA Kodokai:

http://uskodokai.org/

Simply click on the "Click here to request information." link to email them. To date, I am told this is something nobody has done yet, even though confusion over this subject continues to be spread over the internet for a number of years now!

Regards,

Nathan Scott
11th January 2010, 20:14
For those following this subject, the thread on aikiweb was locked and eventually deleted after a few anticipated heated emotional responses from bitter ex-members and Neigong-gumi soldiers were posted. For those who missed it, consider yourself fortunate.

One thing that is interesting is that - to date - not ONE person has contacted the Kodokai directly to solicit their views. Ever. Well, hopefully the situation will resolve itself.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
29th January 2010, 22:11
I just stumbled across a reference on the main Takumakai webpage in Japan regarding their requirements for membership. Apparently they happen to have the same standard as the Kodokai in America (there was some discussion regarding this point on AikiWeb):


http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm01.htm

Membership:

Available to the persons who passed 6 kyu or greater at the test of Shokyu Shodan Shinsa-kai (Dan/Kyu grading test). (Persons who haven't passed any test of Takumakai yet are accepted as provisional members.)

FWIW,

Howard Popkin
3rd February 2010, 00:58
Hello,

Forgive me, but if you were talking about me, I am not bitter.

I was thrown out of the Kodokai many years ago and as it turns out it was one of the pivotial points in my life. I was a kid who didn't know what the world was about.

I have since established a long term relationship with my teacher who has dabbled in the Kodokai arena a bit.

I am personally still in contact with Goldberg Sensei occasionally and I look forward to the day we get back on the tatami together. In addition, I have great respect for Kiyama Sensei.

Since I was only responding to your information, why don't you re-post it here and let me respond here where you are the moderator.

Otherwise you are making comments that can't be backed up.

I would appreciate if you have a comment to make about me, then state my name publicly, instead of making snide remarks. It only makes you look bad.

Let me bottom line this for you.

Your facts are wrong. Where ever you got your information is wrong. If they are trying to wipe him out, or just plain forgot....it doesn't matter.

Once again, Dan he has studied Aiki or he is a martial genius. Honestly, I think it may be both.

As for me, I 'm a humble student. I will be a for a long time.

Things that I might be.....fat......old.....tired.....a good fisherman....

Things that I am not.....bitter.

Best regards,

Howard

Nathan Scott
3rd February 2010, 02:26
Hi Howard,

Thanks for chiming in. The reason I don't post often to other forums is not because I don't have moderation control elsewhere, but because I don't have the time to live on all the various internet forums. I've been far more tolerant of emotional and irrational posts on this forum than Jun or anyone else would ever have. I stay active here at e-budo on some level because of my responsibilities to this forum.

As far as bitter goes, you comments on aikiweb sure sounded bitter to me, based on how you seemed to jump on the opportunity to insert yourself into this issue and make irrelevant comments about the Kodokai kyu ranking system that seemed to imply that there is some type of ranking conspiracy here in America - apparently based on some off-hand comment Okamoto Sensei said to you. If you're in fact not bitter, then I'm glad to hear it. Good luck with your training - no hard feelings from my side.

As far as my posting something about the Takumakai membership standards to this thread, that was for the benefit of those that may have bought into those comments as an indication of an unusual standard for membership. I didn't single you out out of courtesy, and because it really didn't matter which contributor brought it up. I simply thought it would be of interest for others to know that there is a precedence for this type of membership standard for Daito-ryu in Japan. If you want to take ownership of this subject, that's up to you. I wasn't planning on making a big deal about it, and didn't think it necessary to save the thread on aikiweb before it was deleted. As far as not being able to back up my comments, if you read my post you'll notice that my comment was in regards to how the Takumakai standard in Japan are consistent with the Kodokai standard here in America. There's nothing to back up.

As far as my facts being wrong, I disagree. First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own "facts". If there is a discrepancy between what information the NA Kodokai Honbu has recorded, and the experience and credentials Dan really had with the Kodokai on the east coast, I can't comment on it because I don't know. What I do know is what the records reflect at the NA Honbu. You might read my post again, which was in response to a public claim of affiliation and standing posted by - someone else.

You weren't the only contributor in the aikiweb thread to dive in and post emotional responses to the point of the thread being closed and eventually deleted. I don't know what your motivations are/were, but the information I posted in THIS thread was intended to document my response to the thread that was linked from here, and to post a couple of follow ups to those that either missed the other thread or were confused about some of the things that were implied.

Howard Popkin
3rd February 2010, 02:41
Nathan,

Quite the contrary, I am the furthest thing from bitter.

I can't speak to what other people told you, and honestly it doesn't matter.

The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.

Again, I truly have no quarrel with you, I just think its important to have the facts straight.

Best regards,

Howard

Jim Sorrentino
3rd February 2010, 16:26
Gentlemen,

Howard said, "The facts are simple and easy to verify. Just ask." Who should I (or Nathan, or anyone else who wants to know) ask?

Nathan said, "First of all, what I posted was paraphrased statement from the NA Kodokai, not my own 'facts'." Does this mean that it is not necessary for anyone else to contact the NA Kodokai about this matter?

Thanks in advance for your replies -

Jim Sorrentino

Howard Popkin
3rd February 2010, 18:01
Mr. Sorrentino,

I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

Best wishes,

Howard

Jim Sorrentino
3rd February 2010, 18:39
Hello Howard,

Please call me Jim.

Mr. Sorrentino,

I do not speak for the Kodokai at all, I can only tell you my version of history.

If you have questions about Mr. Harden's history and have heard things that are contradictory, please contact Goldberg Sensei.

I know you have had him at your dojo for seminars. He should be able to answer any questions you may have.

Best wishes,

Howard
As I am sure you recall (because you posted to both this thread and the one which has been removed from AikiWeb), I and others asked Roy Goldberg about Dan Harden's training history and background, first at seminars we attended outside my dojo, and later at seminars which my dojo hosted. Roy provided information which I now believe was not true. Unfortunately, I believed it. As you know, I apologized to Dan, publicly and privately, for being misled and unwittingly calling Dan's reputation into question. Seriously, why you would suggest that I start that process all over again?

Instead, how about if you enlighten me (and anyone else reading) with "your version of history"?

Thanks in advance ---

Sincerely,

Jim

Jim Sorrentino

Howard Popkin
3rd February 2010, 23:11
I haven't reached enlightenment yet :)

I would ask around. Ask people who were there.

Obviously something changed your mind.

OR....

Not.....does any of this really matter ? Who cares ? I don't think this has anywhere to go.....

Water under the bridge....

Keep training !

Howard

DDATFUS
3rd February 2010, 23:47
The facts are simple and easy to verify, just ask.


Well, it sounds like Nathan already HAS asked-- he not only asked the North American Kodokai and gave us their answer, but he has also encouraged others to contact the North American Kodokai as well.

Who else should he ask? Roy Goldberg? According to the post that started this thread originally, Goldberg had this to say:


By the way, during the course of the afternoon, someone (not me) asked Goldberg-sensei about Dan Harden. Goldberg-sensei's first response was, "If you come to tomorrow's session [also 4 hours], you will have spent as many hours on the mat with me as Dan has."

It sounds like the problem here isn't a failure to ask-- people have contacted both the Kodokai organization through its website and Goldberg in particular. If you think that the information that they are getting from those sources isn't accurate, it would be great of you to provide them with a better starting point.

Howard Popkin
4th February 2010, 01:14
Hello,

Dan Harden asked me to post this as he hasn't been a member of e-budo for a while.


Here is Dan's reply.

_____________________________________

Gentlemen
This is starting to sound like a tempest in a teapot
Why does any of this matter?
I do not teach Daito ryu.
I do not practice Daito ryu.
I have no longer have any interest in Daito ryu whatsoever (Other than
historically).

Since I do not teach ANY traditional martial art whatsoever.
Since I pay the bills for my own dojo and do not even take dues…
It begs the question.
What's the point?

If you are that interested in Daito ryu, go find a teacher. Like Howard,
I respect Kiyama and Goldberg's teaching efforts to forward that art. If anyone
wants to train in Daito Ryu I would recommend (as I consistently have in these
pages) Kiyama/ Goldberg or Okomoto/ Popkin.


People from Daito ryu, aikido, Koryu, Judo and MMA continue to train with me in what I --actually- am doing with aiki outside the traditional arts. They continue to form their own opinions from first hand experience. I don't really care about everyone else's gossip about an art I have nothing to do with.

Good luck in your training.
Dan

Nathan Scott
4th February 2010, 04:27
Hi all,

It is starting to sound like this subject is going around in circles, and since Dan is not a member here anymore, it makes it difficult to discuss issues such as this at any length.

What I do find to be nice change is the tempered and polite responses. That is appreciated. Hell, this is starting to feel like a mature exchange between well-adjusted adults!! :D

I'd suggest that if anyone has further questions or issues worth pursuing at this point, they take the initiative to contact some of the sources that have been suggested in this thread. Otherwise, lets move on to something more interesting or get back to training!

Regards,

Thomas_Campbell
20th March 2010, 23:26
............................

Thomas_Campbell
20th November 2016, 01:51
...........................

Chris Li
21st November 2016, 03:01
Folks might be interested in this video (https://youtu.be/A_vIooNhbBs) from the recent joint workshop with Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg. There are a number of videos available from the workshop, available here (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUEF6qjsXu7VKnhIMpM8bObg). Also there's a nice wrap-up at the end with Dan and Roy available here (https://youtu.be/Cyd5SZym28w).

Hopefully, that puts some of the issues on this thread to rest.

Best,

Chris