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MichaelDurr
12th October 2006, 14:06
Hello,

Probally a stupid question but...may save a mistake.
Is a O-Kissaki harder to no-to than the chu?

Thank you for any responses,

JAnstey
12th October 2006, 14:26
Its not a stupid question, but most definately harder to noto, not really suited to Iai.

MichaelDurr
12th October 2006, 14:31
Its not a stupid question, but most definately harder to noto, not really suited to Iai.

Thank you JAnstey,

I'll mostly be using it for tami- but one still has to no-to.

Thanks for the help,

JAnstey
12th October 2006, 14:35
... I suppose it will depend on how long the sword is in comparison to your arm length an what style of not you practise. If the sword is not too long and you practice a verticle stye noto then you should be quite okay.

MichaelDurr
12th October 2006, 20:05
... I suppose it will depend on how long the sword is in comparison to your arm length an what style of not you practise. If the sword is not too long and you practice a verticle stye noto then you should be quite okay.

Toyama-ryu,so almost vert., My Iaito is 29 and I used to be able to noto easier when I did ZNKR Iai. The blade in quesion is 29. I still usually, 90% of the time have no problem, but think I'll drop to a 28&1/2.
Thanks again,

JAnstey
13th October 2006, 01:56
... I reckon changing down .5" would be an expensive excercise and something to discuss with your Sensei. I know very little about Toyama Ryu so I can't comment.

Cheers

MichaelDurr
13th October 2006, 04:34
... I reckon changing down .5" would be an expensive excercise and something to discuss with your Sensei. I know very little about Toyama Ryu so I can't comment.

Cheers
It's o.k. I havn't bought it yet, this is research, my Sensei and I both have chu-kissaki's...so I thought to get some suggestions before I purchased. Between the two I like one is 29("o") and one is 28.5("chu"), sometimes it's just that lil bit that hangs-up on a bad noto.(still just an Iaito pup, just x-mas to me) Got 6 mos. before Tami approx.
Thanks again,

JAnstey
13th October 2006, 05:12
... in an ideal world I would say that a 29 (chu) versus a 28.5 (o) might make a more even equation??

If it was me I would go chu-kissaki in the longest blade that my body will allow- Having said that this is based on my study of a long sword style with flat noto.

I really do like the look of o-kissaki but I like the practicality of having the webbing between my left thumb and forefinger :)

Cheers

Jason

Maro
13th October 2006, 05:39
I always thought the problem with an O-Kissaki and Iai was the draw, not Noto?

JAnstey
13th October 2006, 07:55
... yep, Maro you are probably right. Either way ya can't really do one without the other :)

pgsmith
13th October 2006, 18:24
It has been my experience, that there are basically two areas that cause concern in using an o-kissaki as opposed to chu-kissaki. Noto is no different with an o-kissaki, except that if you are NOT exactly lined up, you will shave a large piece off of the inside of your saya rather than a small piece. This is due to the fact that the longer taper of the o-kissaki allows it to more easily slice the inside of your saya than the more abrupt taper of the chu-kissaki. Nukitsuke is quite a bit more dangerous with an o-kissaki than a chu-kissaki. This is due strictly to the fact that if you start the cut before you are entirely free of the saya, you have much more leverage to cut through the saya with an o-kissaki.

If your form and technique are good, you should not be able to tell a difference.

socho
13th October 2006, 22:47
... most definately harder to noto, not really suited to Iai. No, noto is no different, and it works just fine for iai. Perhaps you meant to say "within my style ..."? See above post last sentence by Paul. And a vertical style noto makes no difference. I can't address the Toyama within Shinkendo, but the Toyama within Nakamura-ryu has eight different noto, and they all work just fine with o-kissaki. If you train with attention to detail, you will develop the habits needed for a proper noto. Period. If you get sloppy, you will get bit, regardless of the style of kissaki. Hopefully it will not be serious.
If you want to try something a bit tricky or initially scarey, try a naginata-naoshi style blade. With an extreme taper above the ji, hardly any mune to rest on, makes you very aware of blade position/angle, especially during noto.

Dave

MichaelDurr
13th October 2006, 23:34
[QUOTE=JAnstey]... in an ideal world I would say that a 29 (chu) versus a 28.5 (o) might make a more even equation??

Sorry I got the "O" and the "chu" crossed, I'm sticking with chu@28.5.
Got enough parts on the left hand nipped in the kitchen...well and that slashed extensor tendon in my left thumb from a x-acto. ;)

JAnstey
14th October 2006, 03:07
No, noto is no different, and it works just fine for iai. Perhaps you meant to say "within my style ..."? See above post last sentence by Paul. And a vertical style noto makes no difference. I can't address the Toyama within Shinkendo, but the Toyama within Nakamura-ryu has eight different noto, and they all work just fine with o-kissaki. If you train with attention to detail, you will develop the habits needed for a proper noto. Period. If you get sloppy, you will get bit, regardless of the style of kissaki. Hopefully it will not be serious.
If you want to try something a bit tricky or initially scarey, try a naginata-naoshi style blade. With an extreme taper above the ji, hardly any mune to rest on, makes you very aware of blade position/angle, especially during noto.

Dave

Yep, gotta agree with this.

addendum to my previous post, In the styles I study I would find Noto to be similar, nukitsuke generally more difficult than chu kissaki. :)

I have seen images of katana with very long kissake around 4-5" , beautifull sword, I personally wouldn't want to use for iai and risk splitting the koiguchi and quite possibly my left hand.

cheers

Chidokan
15th October 2006, 20:12
My friend Nishimoto sensei uses a kissaki of over 4 inches for MJER. He has been told to use this by Iwata sensei to make him study harder and be more 'careful' for both nukitsuke and noto. Having tried to use the sword myself VERY SLOWLY( :) ) I can se how difficult this is.. and scary...
Bearing in mind that seniors in my way of MJER during nukitsuke turn the blade into a horizontal cut (as in Mae) over the length of the kissaki while it is leaving the saya, you could probably guess why.

Bruce Mitchell
15th October 2006, 20:35
Thank you JAnstey,

I'll mostly be using it for tami- but one still has to no-to.

Thanks for the help,
O-kissaki are harder to use when doing noto and nuki, but I think the more important issue is the size of the boshi. O-kissaki tend to have a larger area of hardened steel, which means that they are more likely to chip or break (not that you generally cut with the kissaki, but mistakes happen. This is why you don't see O-kissaki on really old swords. It was really an aesthetic effect that was less practical for actual use. Since you intend to use it for tami- then I would go with the chu-kissaki myself.

T. ALVAREZ
16th October 2006, 06:20
This is why you don't see O-kissaki on really old swords. It was really an aesthetic effect that was less practical for actual myself.


I will agree w/ Dave Drawdy on this subject as it's all in how you train! I petty much use O-Kissaki on all of my shinken for both Iai and tameshigiri.

Also, I have seen plenty of Nanbokucho (spelling) period swords w/ O-Kissaki! This period turned out swords that were much more larger than other periods as they were being made to combat the Mongles and their armor.
I usually pattern my personal custom swords off of this period.

My two cents!