Neifanchi

[Katsu!]

Hi all,

I have question regarding the kata Neifanchi. From my limited reading it's from the shorin ryu style. There are three versions shodan, nidan, sandan.
Besides that i heard that isshin ryu karateka practice it.

Im interested to know is there a single combined version and if so who practices it?

Thanks in advance,

Marko Miletic

[Prince Loeffler]

Hello Mr. Militec

Perhaps I can share what I know as I myself want to have more understanding of the Naihanchi Kata.

This is what practioner of Matsubayashi ryu see's The kata Naihanchi historically as:

1) It is the Kata favored by the Karate-ka of Shuri and Tomari. In the old days these Naihanchi Kata were considered to be used as beginers kata.

2) Naihanchi is older than the Pinan Kata ( Ankoh Itosu created the Pinan in 1907)

3) So just how far can we traced the "Naihanchi Kata"

According to Nagamine Sensei:

Matsumora Kosaku studied under two teachers. From the first, Uku Giko (1800-50), he learned the Tomari-te naihanchi kata (there are three kata in the series). After three years with Giko, Matsumora was referred to Teruya Kishin (1804-64), from whom he learned passai and wanshu.

Noticed that I bolded Uku Giko, perhaps from there we could traced it up but, there are no known documents and eye-witness that might tell us where Uku Giko learned the kata from. This is where my search ends. Hope this helps a bit !

Thanks

[Simon Keegan]

I was under the impression that Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the kata which Shotokan stylists call Tekki Shodan.

Soken Matsumura (as well as Matsumora) practiced it. I believe Matsumura learned it from Iwah.

If you notice, the kata starts with the hands crossed which is the way many Goju Ryu forms begin. Off the top of my head, wasn't Iwah also one of Aragaki's teacher's teachers who may have passed this style of Yoi to Higashionna - hence the common start of the forms.

Tekki Nidan and Sandan were, as far as I understand, created by Itosu Anko. Certain instructors (either Mabuni, Motobu or Otsuka from what I can remember) referred to 2 and 3 as "more or less useless" but considered Shodan to be the cornerstone of Shuri Te.

I don't think all the Pinan/Heian forms were created by Itosu. The chances are at least Shodan and Nidan were practiced (maybe called Channan) by Matsumura - that's why they are in Hohan Soken's syllabus.

But I'm open to correction.

[Prince Loeffler]

1) I was under the impression that Naihanchi/Naifanchi is the kata which Shotokan stylists call Tekki Shodan.

2) Soken Matsumura (as well as Matsumora) practiced it. I believe Matsumura learned it from Iwah.

3) If you notice, the kata starts with the hands crossed which is the way many Goju Ryu forms begin. Off the top of my head, wasn't Iwah also one of Aragaki's teacher's teachers who may have passed this style of Yoi to Higashionna - hence the common start of the forms.

4) Tekki Nidan and Sandan were, as far as I understand, created by Itosu Anko. Certain instructors (either Mabuni, Motobu or Otsuka from what I can remember) referred to 2 and 3 as "more or less useless" but considered Shodan to be the cornerstone of Shuri Te.

5) I don't think all the Pinan/Heian forms were created by Itosu. The chances are at least Shodan and Nidan were practiced (maybe called Channan) by Matsumura - that's why they are in Hohan Soken's syllabus.

6) But I'm open to correction.

1) This is correct.

2) in theory perhaps, again due to lack of ducumentations but its a good theory nonetheless.

3) Not a Goju ryu practioner so I can't comment much on it.

4) I believed it was Otsuka Sensei who made the qoute.

5) Others may say that Itosu's Pinan were taken from the kata Kusanko, Others may say Channan.

6) We all are ! So keep it coming please :)

[Simon Keegan]

Thanks.

I've never been entirely confortable with the theory that Pinan/Heian comes directly/purely from Kushanku/Kanku Dai.

There are obviously certain sequences, particularly in Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan)found in Kushanku, but then there are also techniques (for example in Godan) which seem to cross-reference Bassai Dai (Passai) and other kata more strongly.

I'd suggest that Kushanku and Heian Shodan/Nidan in an early form (possibly Channan) were formulated by Tode Sakugawa based on the techniques and forms taught to him by Kushanku himself and these were passed onto Bushi Matsumura.

Unfortunately I only really have the Shotokan versions of these forms to go off other than little bits and bobs I've seen of other styles.

[Prince Loeffler]

Thanks.

I've never been entirely confortable with the theory that Pinan/Heian comes directly/purely from Kushanku/Kanku Dai.

There are obviously certain sequences, particularly in Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan)found in Kushanku, but then there are also techniques (for example in Godan) which seem to cross-reference Bassai Dai (Passai) and other kata more strongly.

I'd suggest that Kushanku and Heian Shodan/Nidan in an early form (possibly Channan) were formulated by Tode Sakugawa based on the techniques and forms taught to him by Kushanku himself and these were passed onto Bushi Matsumura.

Unfortunately I only really have the Shotokan versions of these forms to go off other than little bits and bobs I've seen of other styles.

I'd say its a divided feelings on the origin of the pinan. Someday soon some archeologist might dig up some artifiacts :) That might give us the truth ! :) :)

[Blackshield]

here is a link to a discussion on the kata - on a forum that i visit - it was some time ago now - but there are a lot of good links in the thread

http://www.gojuforums.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=621&SearchTerms=naifanchi

[Chris McLean]

I have a limited understanding of Kata. But I see Pasai, Kusanku, and Jion,in the Pinan forms. I see the Naihanshi being taught first for the method of generating power in a stationary Horse stance before learning to generate power in Front, or Cat stances. I prefer to look at the purpose more than the history not to say the history isn't important. I just need to know the proper methods of training and their purpose so it has more value in the here and now.

[Simon Keegan]

As far as training stances goes, Naihanchi may be the strongest but I believe the Pinans instill far more fundamental skills which should be practiced first, and Naihanchi naturally follows.
If you think of the original sequence - Pinan Shodan then Pinan Nidan then Pinan Sandan (Heian Nidan, Shodan, Sandan), the first movement of Pinan Nidan involves raising both hands in defence. Whether you interpret that technique to be a block or a lock or whatever a flinch block using two hands is the most natural way to defend yourself. Yondan begins similarly with a two-handed "flinch block".
Practising Sandan and Godan builds the same kind of kime that will be needed later in Naihanchi - think of the lateral movement in Godan and it's similarity with the sideways movement of Naihanchi. And think of the "one hand up one hand down" block of Sandan and the similarities to the technique in Naihanchi where the hands use this motion.

I believe Itosu and Funakoshi knew exactly what they were doing when they began to teach the Pinans before the Naihanchi - they are great forms to begin with and come back to again and again.

Incidently the order I teach in is Pinan (Heians), Naihanchi (Tekki), Gekisai (from Goju Ryu), Passai (Bassai Dai), Kushanku (Kanku Dai), Wansu (Empi) then others such as Jutte.

[shoshinkan]

Im of the opinion that the base movement, rooting, power generation and delivery methods of shorin ryu are introduced by the practising of the first 2 Pinans (we train them as one kata) and Naihanchi (again we train 1,2 together).

Pinan 1,2 seem to come from a different source than 3,4,5 IMO.

Naihanchi 3 seems to be an add on to the first 2 IMO.

of course IMO counts for very little but thats where we are at !

[Simon Keegan]

Hi Jim
You've got mail....

[Blackwood]

Good stuff!

Naihanchi and Tekki are the same origins. In our style, Naihanchi Shodan is taught as the first kata after the kihon (basic) kata.

I see lots of the bassai and Kusanku kata in the Pinan Kata and even a bit of Chinto.

Most of the references I have credit Itosu with the creation of the Pinan kata as part of his introduction of karate into the school system.

Note that there is a difference in what styles call Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan. Some of them have reversed the two kata and their names. My style (very traditional from Chosin Chibana/Shinpan Gusukuma) has the double block as the start of Pinan Shodan.

[Nyuck3X]

As far as training stances goes, Naihanchi may be the strongest but I believe the Pinans instill far more fundamental skills which should be practiced first, and Naihanchi naturally follows.

(edit)

I believe Itosu and Funakoshi knew exactly what they were doing when they began to teach the Pinans before the Naihanchi - they are great forms to begin with and come back to again and again.



As Chris mentioned earlier, Naihanchi teaches you to generate power
without the benefit of forward movement. The Pinans depend on
closing the gap to generate power. The assumption there is you have
established the enemy and are moving toward them. In a surprise attack,
you are more likely to be surprised and rooted.

Itosu didn't always teach the Pinans first. As far as I know, all of
Shorin-ryu were taught the Naihanchi first in the old days. Naihanchi
was my first kata after the kihon katas like Blackwood.
We did one kata, one year.

Peace.

[Katsu!]

To all who have posted, thank you.

My interest in this kata began after reading an essay by Miyagi Chojun that included a point regarding training.

You can see it here http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/outline.html

It's under paragraph 8.

He speaks of the Preparatory Exercises in which he includes the neifanchi kata. I was somewhat suprised as i hadn't even heard of the kata in goju ryu.

I looked up a video of it and found it to be a kata that i definately would like to master.

You can see it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE

From my point of view i can see how neifanchi fits in perfectly with sanchin and Tensho. Sanchin being a strong breathing kata (go) Tensho flowing and soft (ju) and neifanchi being what goju is about, In-fighting.

I'd love to know why it was dropped from the japanese mainland goju line. :)

Could someone tell me which styles practice the shodan version?


Thanks to all again,

Marko Miletic

[Chris McLean]

Once upon a time when I was a student of Shorin Ryu I was taught all three Naihanchi before learning the Pinan forms. I can’t think of a more important skill than the ability to explode with the center of the body’s power plant and release power in all the directions as is present in these first three forms. This is a very important skill to have if attacked suddenly. The hands are used in combination in all directions from one side of the body to the other one technique beginning from where the last one ended with explosive core snap in the hips. All this minus any momentum gained from stepping forward. I find it is easier to generate snapping hip action in a front stance than it is in a horse stance. IMHO snapping hip action is the core of our power source. I could be wrong like I said I have only a limited understanding of Kata.

[shoshinkan]

any shorin ryu dojo should teach Naihanchi kata, 1,2 or 3.

Personally if you are not long term learning shorin ru then Naihanchi Sho would be just the ticket to get the principles/core application across.

1st Half of the kata (as I practise it) is here -

http://www.putfile.com/shoshinkan/images/36647

2nd half is simply a mirrior of the first half. (in our system we practise sho and ni combined, but no san).

For an 'alternative' combined view of Naihanchi1,2,3 the best person I know to talk to is Nathan Johnson Sensei in the UK,

http://www.kodoryu.com

[Simon Keegan]

I see Naihanchi as teaching close-in fighting techniques for a confined space. The most usual application i teach is that the opening move is your opponent tackles you from the front, you get him in a front chancery (guillotine choke) [that's the opening salutation] then slam his head against a wall [that's the right distancing hand going out], elbow him in the face,[the empi] grab him by the head and break his neck [that's the Gedan Barai type move].
For the Mizuno Naguri Kamae you have hooked his arm in a hammerlock type position and knee him in the face - and that's just the first few movements...

The Pinans are for an overall fighting strategy that I think should be studied before more specific scenarios. I always say they are called "peaceful mind" because they give you "peace of mind" that you can defend yourself in a variety of situations. whereas the advanced forms are more specific.

In my humble...

[shoshinkan]

I think all kata teaches us to fight in confined spaces, the key message I get from Naihanchi is the body change and sideways positioning agianst an aggresor - sure with close range techniques being used mainly.

For me the footwork is distinctly different from the Pinan and thats one of the first core messages.

[Simon Keegan]

They are close fighting forms to be sure but the footwork in Naihanchi is about moving while holding the opponent (locked high like Sumo) and then using the Name Gaeshi to attack the sides of his legs and the crossover steps to knee strike him. A pretty brutal kata which ever way you look at it!

I wouldn't be too sure that Pinan and for that matter Passai ae just for fighting in a confined space. An interesting point was raised in Bruce Clayton's book "Shotokan's Secret", most Shuri stylists (Sakugawa, Matsumura, Itosu) worked in some capacity in and around Shuri Castle and so if they were likely to defend themselves it was just as lightly to be in a well-lit banquet hall with plenty of room for manoever - as in a rice paddy field.

Basically you could think of Naha Te (and Shorei kata like Naihanchi) as being for civilian defence - fields, country lanes, dimly lit alleys and Shuri/Shorin forms for noblemen to fight around the court. Hence Goju Ryu has more circular techniques (gotta find him to fight in the dark) and Shotokan has more long range sequences.

Just a theory of course....

[Nyuck3X]

I'm not a big fan of Clayton's book. He makes some statements
about Shuri -te that predominantly only includes Shotokan Karate
and then dismisses all of the other Shuri-te systems.

Be that what it may, I found Kane and Wilder's book, "The Way of Kata"
much more informational. They are Goju based, but gives a universal
approch to bunkai and oyo waza. No politics, just good information.
After reading this book, a whole new world opened up for me in Naihanchi.

Peace.

[shoshinkan]

from Simon,

'Basically you could think of Naha Te (and Shorei kata like Naihanchi) as being for civilian defence - fields, country lanes, dimly lit alleys and Shuri/Shorin forms for noblemen to fight around the court. Hence Goju Ryu has more circular techniques (gotta find him to fight in the dark) and Shotokan has more long range sequences.'

with respect Simon, you seriously think this is even remotly likely to have any base in reality?

[Katsu!]

Thank you for the breakdown of the kata.

Regards,

Marko Miletic

[shoshinkan]

No problem, its far from technically perfect of course - but I hope it gives you an idea of the shape of the form.

[Simon Keegan]

Regarding my over simplified hypothesis: It is fact that most of the notable practitioners of Shuri-Te (Matsumura, Itosu, Azato, Takahara, Sakugawa) were court officials of the Peichin class, and the likes of Higashionna (a wood cutter?) were of a lower social class. Can you say that this would not influence their specific need for self defence?

Mind you I've never been attacked in either Tomari Port, Naha village or Shuri Castle so I can't speak with any authority...

[Blackshield]

the shorin styles seem to have more influence from 'samurai' arts - such as matsumora being menkyu kaiden (sp?) in jigen ryu under the satsuma clan - which makes sense considering the satsuma ruled the okinawan prefecture, and so the peichin would have more access to there teachings than a civillian would.

I may not have my facts straight at all here...

[shoshinkan]

Regarding my over simplified hypothesis: It is fact that most of the notable practitioners of Shuri-Te (Matsumura, Itosu, Azato, Takahara, Sakugawa) were court officials of the Peichin class, and the likes of Higashionna (a wood cutter?) were of a lower social class. Can you say that this would not influence their specific need for self defence?

Mind you I've never been attacked in either Tomari Port, Naha village or Shuri Castle so I can't speak with any authority...




maybee Simon, it was more this piece that I struggled with -

'Hence Goju Ryu has more circular techniques (gotta find him to fight in the dark) and Shotokan has more long range sequences'


Lets not make an issue as its all up to interpretation anyhow and I want to share some ideas with you long term!

The circularity in goju is specifically designed for close 1/4 combat applications fired off from a solid base (snachin dachi) IMO - nothing to do with night fighting!

Shotokan hads more long range tactics, because it was designed as a long range sport art.

Of course they are not complete awnsers but should have more place in reality.

[shoshinkan]

the shorin styles seem to have more influence from 'samurai' arts - such as matsumora being menkyu kaiden (sp?) in jigen ryu under the satsuma clan - which makes sense considering the satsuma ruled the okinawan prefecture, and so the peichin would have more access to there teachings than a civillian would.

I may not have my facts straight at all here...

Personaly I think the Japanese Jigen Ryu arts had more influence on Okinawan Te practised by the aristocrats than karate.

but thats just where im at!

[trevorg]

any shorin ryu dojo should teach Naihanchi kata, 1,2 or 3.

Personally if you are not long term learning shorin ru then Naihanchi Sho would be just the ticket to get the principles/core application across.

1st Half of the kata (as I practise it) is here -

http://www.putfile.com/shoshinkan/images/36647

2nd half is simply a mirrior of the first half. (in our system we practise sho and ni combined, but no san).

For an 'alternative' combined view of Naihanchi1,2,3 the best person I know to talk to is Nathan Johnson Sensei in the UK,

http://www.kodoryu.com

Interesting set of pics. What struck me was the more looser, if I can put it that way, positioning where for example the elbows are held wider of the body. Is this typical of the more classical style that you teach ? Unfortunately my own style, Kyokushin, is more modern and so I am not really tapped into older systems. Your advice greatly appreciated.

[shoshinkan]

Hi Trevor,

Combination of 2 things,

I relaxed after hitting the position, when the still shot was taken (we are not proffesional photo takers! LOL)

and yes I would say that our system is significantly more 'relaxed', loose, than many modern karate systems. it allows flow/whip to happen.

Also im at the stage where technical 'exactness' in kata is not my main interest, function is.

The kata was just walked through and shots snapped, with no real regard for technical 'exactness',

it is as it is!

[Todd Lambert]

maybee Simon, it was more this piece that I struggled with -

'Hence Goju Ryu has more circular techniques (gotta find him to fight in the dark) and Shotokan has more long range sequences'


Lets not make an issue as its all up to interpretation anyhow and I want to share some ideas with you long term!

The circularity in goju is specifically designed for close 1/4 combat applications fired off from a solid base (snachin dachi) IMO - nothing to do with night fighting!

Shotokan hads more long range tactics, because it was designed as a long range sport art.

Of course they are not complete awnsers but should have more place in reality.
I have heard from other folks practicing karate on Okinawa that fighting at night was something the old-timers considered when training. It seems that that was when one was likely to be confronted and/or jumped while out & about.

[Katsu!]

Regarding my over simplified hypothesis: It is fact that most of the notable practitioners of Shuri-Te (Matsumura, Itosu, Azato, Takahara, Sakugawa) were court officials of the Peichin class, and the likes of Higashionna (a wood cutter?) were of a lower social class. Can you say that this would not influence their specific need for self defence?

Mind you I've never been attacked in either Tomari Port, Naha village or Shuri Castle so I can't speak with any authority...

Over time i have been looking into the origins of goju and when looking at the styles from fujien (china) such as monk fist boxing and white crane i came accross some explanations.

In southern china, especially in busy port cities, close range fighting systems developed. While up north on the more open terrain long stance fighting was more prevelant.

Since a number of okinawan martial artists went to fujien and learnt the southern styles it seems logical that thats where the preference, at least of those in Naha, for close techniques came from.

Any thoughts?


Regards,

Marko Miletic

[armanox]

I thought that Katsu! and anyone else that finds this thread looking to see what the three kata are might appreciate having video references to all three.
Shodan
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/th_NaifanchiShodan.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/?action=view&current=NaifanchiShodan.flv)
Nidan
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/th_NaifanchiNidan.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/?action=view&current=NaifanchiNidan.flv)
Sandan
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/th_NaifanchiSandan.jpg (http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/armanox/Shorin%20Ryu/?action=view&current=NaifanchiSandan.flv)

[shoshinkan]

I have heard from other folks practicing karate on Okinawa that fighting at night was something the old-timers considered when training. It seems that that was when one was likely to be confronted and/or jumped while out & about.

No fair enough and of course you make a point, eg in our Passai kata we have searching hands at the end etc etc.

My point being is that Goju Ryu wasn't simply made for mainly fighting at night.

[Simon Keegan]

My comment about night fighting and the circular method of Goju versus the linear of Shotokan was very over-simplified but I think the different backgrounds of the Shuri, Naha practitioners are valid.
As you know from my studies Jim, I believe the earliest extant kata introduced to Okinawa was Wansu which was taught in Tomari to Takahara Peichin who I believe studied Hsing-I Chuan. More information on this will be added to my Karate Jutsu web resource which I discussed with you.
Hsing-I Chuan is based around the San-Ti posture which is very similar to Kokutsu Dachi, its "Splitting Fist" is very similar to Shuto Uke and its Cannon (or Pounding I can't remember which) Fist is very similar to Jodan Age Uke with Gyaku Tate Tzuki. And, crucially one of its 12 animal fists is the Swallow (of which Wansu/Empi takes its name).
Now anyone with more than a fleeting knowledge of Hsing-I will note that the Swallow Fist looks little like Wansu (in parts it looks a little like Snake Creeps down in Yang Style Tai Chi, but I digress) - but the application however is very similar to an application of the key sequence in Wansu.
You have cited Long Fist Boxing on your site as a key influence on Shuri Te. I will have to look into this style more thoroughly. I believe the Karate introduced to Okinawa by Kushanku was based on the Black Tiger method of the White Crane family (reference the Tuite book by one of Hohan Soken's students - sorry can't remember the name).
This combination of the internal (Hsing-I) and the external (Black Tiger) mirrors the styles brought to Naha by Higashionna a few geneations later - he studied external (Whooping Crane) and internal (Pa Kua I think).
The key difference is that Tode Sakugawa (and his student Matsumura) who studied under Takahara and Kushanku was of the Peichin class and so his self-defence needs were very different to those of Tomari and Naha.
Might you fight differently in a stone walled castle than you would in a marshy field?
Some of my research has led me to hypothesise that in addition to Jigen Ryu, Matsumua (and Takahara) studied Mok Gar and it was from there that the perfected his Kobudo knowledge.
Anyway, that's enough sweeping statements unsupported by evidence.......

Sayonora E-Budo

Simon

[trevorg]

Hi Trevor,

Combination of 2 things,

I relaxed after hitting the position, when the still shot was taken (we are not proffesional photo takers! LOL)

and yes I would say that our system is significantly more 'relaxed', loose, than many modern karate systems. it allows flow/whip to happen.

Also im at the stage where technical 'exactness' in kata is not my main interest, function is.

The kata was just walked through and shots snapped, with no real regard for technical 'exactness',

it is as it is!

Hi Jim

Thanks for the explanation. The looseness is quite significantly different to that which I practice although looseness and flow/whip, as you describe, also naturally plays it part. I was always taught that everything powers up from the feet (gripping the earth), through the hips and out from wherever. Because the toes are gripping the floor then tightness is inevitable IMO.

I am no follower of Wado ryu but it strikes me there is a similarity in the 'free/loose' aspect of it. I stand corrected ???

BTW, when you talk about technical exactness not being your main interest at the moment it would be interesting to know how you approach learning new kata ? ie in which order do you advise to learn; function, purpose, technical exactness, body positioning, breathing, shape of kata (where body movements relate to foot placement).

From what you say, the shots were taken for illustration rather than for the purposes of exactness, but if I was honest (no slight intended whatsoever I assure you) I think that people looking at them for the first time, as I did, might gain a false impression of the veracity of your system and your ability to display it.

Sadly, I feel my own ability always falls short of the mark but one keeps striving for perfection even though it is unattainable.As Sosai says "1,000 days training, a student. 10,000 days training, a master".

I think I shall forever be a student !
Osu

[shoshinkan]

Hi Jim

Thanks for the explanation. The looseness is quite significantly different to that which I practice although looseness and flow/whip, as you describe, also naturally plays it part. I was always taught that everything powers up from the feet (gripping the earth), through the hips and out from wherever. Because the toes are gripping the floor then tightness is inevitable IMO.

I am no follower of Wado ryu but it strikes me there is a similarity in the 'free/loose' aspect of it. I stand corrected ???

BTW, when you talk about technical exactness not being your main interest at the moment it would be interesting to know how you approach learning new kata ? ie in which order do you advise to learn; function, purpose, technical exactness, body positioning, breathing, shape of kata (where body movements relate to foot placement).

From what you say, the shots were taken for illustration rather than for the purposes of exactness, but if I was honest (no slight intended whatsoever I assure you) I think that people looking at them for the first time, as I did, might gain a false impression of the veracity of your system and your ability to display it.

Sadly, I feel my own ability always falls short of the mark but one keeps striving for perfection even though it is unattainable.As Sosai says "1,000 days training, a student. 10,000 days training, a master".

I think I shall forever be a student !
Osu


Fair points Trevor, if you want to send a pm over we can talk in more detail etc etc.

[trevorg]

Fair points Trevor, if you want to send a pm over we can talk in more detail etc etc.

No,thanks, Jim,the thread is fine because we are on subject about the kata anyway, so as I like absorbing information and others would no doubt, too, I am happy to carry on if you are.

[Blackwood]

P. Massey

Nice videos. Pretty much identical to what I was taught and teach, a few minor differences in the execution of moves, but the moves are the same. Nice to know that there are other related styles doing it the same way!

[armanox]

Same to you. I enjoy knowing that others do kata pretty much the same way.

[shoshinkan]

No problems, in our shorin ryu we do not 'grip' the floor with the toes - we allow the feet to sit on the floor and naturally root.

Re Wado ryu, I heard this somewhere recently and agree - wado is a step back towards Okinawan karate, I always liked the system.

Re learning new kata myself, my Sensei takes care of that.

If im teaching a new kata I introduce the general movements, then simple Bunkai for drilling said movements - then everything you mention is trained over time in kata practise.

LOL re the pictures im entirley proud and comftorable that it may look imperfect - it is not perfect and I dont think kata should be, im comftorable with that.

(of course im always looking to improve technique and please understand the pics really are not great re angles etc etc).

I recognise I have a long way to go technically, however im not seeking perfectness, im seeking good training, a healthy life and the ability to defend myself and generally be a good person. People who meet me, train with me tend to say that im not to shabby :)

A little story, in my first half dozen years of taining there was this guy who was technically brilliant - the guy look terrific, powerful, fast, accurate, the full shooting match. The best kata in the association by a mile!

Everytime I went at him in fixe or free kumite the guy panicked, couldnt find his range and threw his pretty techniques into space,

now I was always a kumite man first with half decent kata - I guess that hasn't changed. but the point is I dont let it worry me these days! I do what I can and thats that. Kata is to be studied and not performed like a monkey after all..........

I think I shall forever be a student as well!

[Joseph Svinth]

Well, for those of you interested in such things, there is always:

Percept Mot Skills. 1993 Dec;77(3 Pt 1):829-30.

Karate for self-defense: an analysis of Goju-ryu and Kyokushinkai kata.

Layton C, Higaonna M, Arneil S.

Kime Publishing, Hunstanton, Norfolk, England.

12 Goju-ryu and 24 Kyokushinkai kata (forms) widely practised today were analysed for blocking and counter-offensive techniques. A statistically significant preference was found for blocking in Goju-ryu kata and a significant preference for counter-offensive techniques in Kyokushinkai kata. The kata from both styles were seen as fostering nonviolence in their practitioners, however.

PMID: 8284161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8284161&dopt=Abstract

[trevorg]

No problems, in our shorin ryu we do not 'grip' the floor with the toes - we allow the feet to sit on the floor and naturally root.

Re Wado ryu, I heard this somewhere recently and agree - wado is a step back towards Okinawan karate, I always liked the system.

Re learning new kata myself, my Sensei takes care of that.

If im teaching a new kata I introduce the general movements, then simple Bunkai for drilling said movements - then everything you mention is trained over time in kata practise.

LOL re the pictures im entirley proud and comftorable that it may look imperfect - it is not perfect and I dont think kata should be, im comftorable with that.

(of course im always looking to improve technique and please understand the pics really are not great re angles etc etc).

I recognise I have a long way to go technically, however im not seeking perfectness, im seeking good training, a healthy life and the ability to defend myself and generally be a good person. People who meet me, train with me tend to say that im not to shabby :)

A little story, in my first half dozen years of taining there was this guy who was technically brilliant - the guy look terrific, powerful, fast, accurate, the full shooting match. The best kata in the association by a mile!

Everytime I went at him in fixe or free kumite the guy panicked, couldnt find his range and threw his pretty techniques into space,

now I was always a kumite man first with half decent kata - I guess that hasn't changed. but the point is I dont let it worry me these days! I do what I can and thats that. Kata is to be studied and not performed like a monkey after all..........

I think I shall forever be a student as well!


That's very interesting. A number of ryu do grip the floor such as Shito,Goju, Kyokushin and it was Ankoh Itosu of Shito who mentioned this in one of his ten precepts. Also, in goju it is often described as "grip the floor like the roots of a tree".

I havent heard the expression about letting your feet grow into the ground before. It seems to me this is quite advanced thinking which I think the average student would find hard to comprehend, but easier to learn the physicality of gripping the floor in the first instance.

What is the mindset that creates a downward force, if I can put it this way, and how is it taught ? This is something quite new to me and I will try to practice it once you have explained.

I'm surprised you think a kata should not be perfect. Is this a subjective thought ? My own ideas on the matter are that one should always strive for perfection in everything ones does, including kata. If, for example, I find or am told that one aspect of what I am doing is wrong (say, in a kata) then I will concentrate on that technique until it can be as good as I can get it,although I accept I will never achieve a high level of grace.

I have different views on the eventual outcome of training. I do not seek good training to improve my lifestyle and never have done. I seek a good teacher who is prepared to share a tiny bit of his knowledge with me and if I can learn from that then I am plainly the beneficiary. You say you seek a healthy lifestyle and to be a good person generally,which I have no doubt you are, but surely that isnt the purpose of studying karate, it is a by-product, or one is already in that state anyway. There seems to be a contradiction in your preferred 21st century lifestyle to what the ancient arts can teach us.

It follows that the study of kata and perfecting it as best one can has to be the ultimate aim. I say that as one who is far from perfect. All I would say, if you dont mind, is that if you are kumite first and foremost and kata second, and on that basis as you say 'do what I can and that's that', I feel some inner reflection might hopefully lead you towards the equal benefits of kata study.

I, too, have a preference for kumite but I know my weakness which is kata and therefore I must work twice as hard, if not more, trying to achieve a similar level of ability. I am afraid that even at my advanced age this still worries me, although I am pleased your'e content. Didn't get the 'performed like a monkey' bit. Can you elaborate please ?
Osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

hi Trevor,

pm sent, give me a call - im not typing all of this! LOL

[shoshinkan]

Hi Treor,

Ok some thoughts on what you have said -

1. Re gripping the floor, yep this is stressed greatly in goju (ie Shorei Ryu), it is also stressed in some shorin ryu, just not in our system - we naturally stand and root, it is not as strong as shorei but is a more mobile approach IMO.

2. Downward force, or rooting is assisted by having slightly bent knees and good posture, breath, something im constantly working on, but then again im not training to stick to floors, im training to defend myself! My point is its a long term thing I work to improve on.

3. The 'perfect' kata quest is not for me thankyou very much, improving of skills, open mind and effort, understanding the katas 'shape', the kata is a tool, a means to an end, not the end

- but perfect 'budo' no thanks. Im happy to accept my karate just as it is, right now and get on with it, function before form for me! (form comes over time)

4. I see Okinawan karate as a life preservation system of old and respect it as such, therefore good health, good character and good skills are all part of it - inseperable actually, you and others may feel different and thats fine.

5. My whole karate study is led by kata study and training, you misunderstand my point - my natural ability is in kumite (I was handy once!), but believe me I work kata hard, very, very hard - along with bunkai, kumite, tegumi, conditioning, kobudo etc etc , all components of the old art. However the kata is the 'link' and makes what we do karate.

6. Perform like a monkey, ok I shall explain, kata should not be 'performed' but many train it that way.

ie Go to a modern class and see 30 people step through a kata and it looks 'exactly' the same, punches same height, kiai same points, same tempo, same........... - go back 30 years later and see the same people, the same kata looking exactly the same - hardly making karate your own, part of you is it?

Yes kata has shape, yes it retains technique but we must make it our own, draw from it, the kata must fit our bodies/personalitys once we understand its core messages, otherwise we are 'performing like monkeys' :)


Now I need to state my opinion is just that, an opinion. Others can/will/should think differently and I realise that I speaketh with forked tounge.......

Im fairly sure I am on the 'hit list' for those that follow Japanese 'Budo' karate, to these people I apologise, I just moved away from that a while ago.

[Blackwood]

Go to a modern class and see 30 people step through a kata and it looks 'exactly' the same, punches same height, kiai same points, same tempo, same........... - go back 30 years later and see the same people, the same kata looking exactly the same - hardly making karate your own, part of you is it?

Good! It should look the same. Kata is a way of transmitting learning from teacher to student consistently from generation to generation.

Now, if the kata looks exactly the same when an individual does it on their own for testing or competition, then you have someone that has not made karate their own. Interpretation and 'phrasing' is an individual things.

[trevorg]

Hi Treor,

Ok some thoughts on what you have said -

1. Re gripping the floor, yep this is stressed greatly in goju (ie Shorei Ryu), it is also stressed in some shorin ryu, just not in our system - we naturally stand and root, it is not as strong as shorei but is a more mobile approach IMO.

2. Downward force, or rooting is assisted by having slightly bent knees and good posture, breath, something im constantly working on, but then again im not training to stick to floors, im training to defend myself! My point is its a long term thing I work to improve on.

3. The 'perfect' kata quest is not for me thankyou very much, improving of skills, open mind and effort, understanding the katas 'shape', the kata is a tool, a means to an end, not the end

- but perfect 'budo' no thanks. Im happy to accept my karate just as it is, right now and get on with it, function before form for me! (form comes over time)

4. I see Okinawan karate as a life preservation system of old and respect it as such, therefore good health, good character and good skills are all part of it - inseperable actually, you and others may feel different and thats fine.

5. My whole karate study is led by kata study and training, you misunderstand my point - my natural ability is in kumite (I was handy once!), but believe me I work kata hard, very, very hard - along with bunkai, kumite, tegumi, conditioning, kobudo etc etc , all components of the old art. However the kata is the 'link' and makes what we do karate.

6. Perform like a monkey, ok I shall explain, kata should not be 'performed' but many train it that way.

ie Go to a modern class and see 30 people step through a kata and it looks 'exactly' the same, punches same height, kiai same points, same tempo, same........... - go back 30 years later and see the same people, the same kata looking exactly the same - hardly making karate your own, part of you is it?

Yes kata has shape, yes it retains technique but we must make it our own, draw from it, the kata must fit our bodies/personalitys once we understand its core messages, otherwise we are 'performing like monkeys' :)


Now I need to state my opinion is just that, an opinion. Others can/will/should think differently and I realise that I speaketh with forked tounge.......

Im fairly sure I am on the 'hit list' for those that follow Japanese 'Budo' karate, to these people I apologise, I just moved away from that a while ago.

OK,Jim, I can see where you're coming from now so thanks for that clear explanation.

I suppose the only thing I really have issue with is the 'performing like monkeys' bit because that's the way I learned and the way I teach.

It is said that once a kata is changed it is no longer the kata you were shown and becomes a different kata.

I had (wrongly, I now see) assumed that because you practice in one of the old styles that you followed the old ways of training vis-a-vis that you adhere to the way you were taught without change, but I see now that it allows you to interpret it to suit your physical abilities and personal temperament.

Obviously shorin ryu is more fluid right across the spectrum than I had realised whereas I find freedom of expression, to put it another way, can instead more easily find its outlet in kumite.

Anyway, most enlightening discussion, thanks very much. I think I am becoming a dinosaur.
Osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

LOL Trevor,

hey different folks, different strokes!!!!!!!

My point on the kata is of course we should transmit the kata to 'class', the same, drill the kata to class, the same, teach into Bunkai to class, the same -

but if the kata is being practise the same in 30 years time wheres the understanding, wheres the making it your own, wheres the function???????

Old style martial arts were trained by individuals, the master would instruct each student appropiatly for the students best progress, a far cry from 30 students in neat lines all doing the same thing, day in day out.

What we are talking about is 'cultural differences' I guess, specificaally between Japan and old Okinawan/China and of course my choice is to look to what ACTUALLY took place pre 1900 ish kind of, as best I can, its tough doing so!

Fortunatly my Sensei does the same (and has done for 20 years).

Loads more information on what we do here-

http://rogersheldon.com/shurite/index.htm

we are a small not for profit group that train hard!

Thankyou for bearing with me and keeping an open mind.

[shoshinkan]

Trevor,

Its proberly fair to point out that most shorin ryu do not approach training as we do, far more 'fixed', perfect etc etc LOL.

And of course they are all excellent in their own way.

I believe 'old' shorin ryu is actually about the transfer and function of core principles-

and a tall bloke does it different to a short bloke.

Nice talking to you.

[shoshinkan]

Good! It should look the same. Kata is a way of transmitting learning from teacher to student consistently from generation to generation.

Now, if the kata looks exactly the same when an individual does it on their own for testing or competition, then you have someone that has not made karate their own. Interpretation and 'phrasing' is an individual things.


Yes I think im with you and have explained in the post above, ish. This is the problem with the written word it is difficult to be clear and often thigns are misunderstood or written badly (ie by me!).

[trevorg]

LOL Trevor,

hey different folks, different strokes!!!!!!!

My point on the kata is of course we should transmit the kata to 'class', the same, drill the kata to class, the same, teach into Bunkai to class, the same -

but if the kata is being practise the same in 30 years time wheres the understanding, wheres the making it your own, wheres the function???????

Old style martial arts were trained by individuals, the master would instruct each student appropiatly for the students best progress, a far cry from 30 students in neat lines all doing the same thing, day in day out.

What we are talking about is 'cultural differences' I guess, specificaally between Japan and old Okinawan/China and of course my choice is to look to what ACTUALLY took place pre 1900 ish kind of, as best I can, its tough doing so!

Fortunatly my Sensei does the same (and has done for 20 years).

Loads more information on what we do here-

http://rogersheldon.com/shurite/index.htm

we are a small not for profit group that train hard!

Thankyou for bearing with me and keeping an open mind.

Hello Jim

Re Kata. I see what you're saying, but I dont agree that you should make a kata your own, if you do then its not the same kata any more as it loses its original purpose and function and becomes just another tool in the toolbox to suit one's own needs.

Yes, I know of Roger Sheldon . If you check my profile you will see that I also trained with Jon Alexander, which happened to exactly coincide with the time Roger joined as a beginner in 1974.

I checked out at my old ZaZen grading book and see that I was a 6th kyu when Roger joined, but by the time he meteorically rose to shodan two years later (according to his sites) I was still a 1st kyu. I must have been doing something very wrong to have been held back.

It is great to see the progress he has made. A nanadan already. I assume he received the grade from his teachers or the association he set up (OMAA) ?

Osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

Hi Trevor,

Feel free to contact Roger Sensei directly and ask what you wish, im not his messenger boy! Im also happy to state that Roger Sensei is extremly upfront and will just tell you how it is or how it was!

http://rogersheldon.com/shurite/index.htm

As far as I know Roger Sensei was awarded his 7th dan by the OMAA from Rick Woodhams Shihan.

[trevorg]

Hi Trevor,

Feel free to contact Roger Sensei directly and ask what you wish, im not his messenger boy! Im also happy to state that Roger Sensei is extremly upfront and will just tell you how it is or how it was!

http://rogersheldon.com/shurite/index.htm

As far as I know Roger Sensei was awarded his 7th dan by the OMAA from Rick Woodhams Shihan.

Hi Jim

You will have noticed that I was making a statement with just a teeny question at the end which you answered, so that is fine. People accept grades from whomsever it is appropriate to receive them from.

Thanks for the signpost because what I will do though is contact him about
his graduation from the Masters Degree course of the Institute for Research into the Management of Aggression, which he founded in 1976. I have been searching for a recognised relevant degree and being a Member of the Institute of Conflict Management,this has great appeal to me. I checked out his IRMA site but couldnt see any reference to a degree course because it sells conflict management training, much the same as I do. So thanks once again for the reference point.

Osu
Trevor

By the way, I wasnt asking you to pass messages on so no need to feel you're wearing a pillbox.

[trevorg]

Jim

Just to set your mind at rest. I'm not in the business of pointing fingers as some are on this forum. I have no intention of questioning Roger Sheldon on his gradings/awards etc (other than in a professional business sense relating to the masters degree) because he has been practising for a long time, done his own life searches and is obviously satisfied with his lot in life. As am I. I'm too old to get aggravated any more.

As I said above, people can accept gradings from whomsoever they consider appropriate, or that those people themselves consider the beneficiary appropriate, even if it is their own organisation and the person awarding is one grade above. I really dont have a problem with that, its not my business.

Its very good to see some of my former co-students doing so well.
Osu
Trevor

[shoshinkan]

No problems Trevor,

Just go ahead and contact him Im sure he would be delighted to hear from you, with respect I tend not to discuss forum 'banter' with him anyhow - unless im causing trouble which can happen :)

Take care!

[Katsu!]

Im fairly sure I am on the 'hit list' for those that follow Japanese 'Budo' karate, to these people I apologise, I just moved away from that a while ago.

I wouldn't say that :)

I know what you mean when you say that people 'perform' kata, they tend to look like they are dancing to a reutine. I think thats what most look like at begginer level.

We need to keep the kata movemants unchanged but that does not mean that we shouldn't execute those movements in a way that reflects our personality.

One more thing that came to mind was regarding perfecting kata. I think thats important because it makes us more precise. We have the bunkai for the 'practical' application.

Anyway those are my thoughts, regardless i respect the path you have chosen. Osu!

Marko Miletic

[shoshinkan]

I wouldn't say that :)

I know what you mean when you say that people 'perform' kata, they tend to look like they are dancing to a reutine. I think thats what most look like at begginer level.

We need to keep the kata movemants unchanged but that does not mean that we shouldn't execute those movements in a way that reflects our personality.

One more thing that came to mind was regarding perfecting kata. I think thats important because it makes us more precise. We have the bunkai for the 'practical' application.

Anyway those are my thoughts, regardless i respect the path you have chosen. Osu!

Marko Miletic

Hi Marko,

thankyou for your comments, I dont think im doing a good job in explaining myself here, my fault.

Anyone who trains kata with me, understands that we need to be as close/strictly adhere to the katas shape and techique, the katas message if you like.

I guess im talking about the method of deployment, trianing - with us its far more relaxed, fluid and IMO functional than many dojo.

I see kata as training first, and then the method karate principles are transfered to students and to do this we must be acurate to the kata otherwise the message is changed/lost.

Rgds

[Todd Lambert]

The Multimedia page (http://www.cinematechworks.com/movie/tkcnm/tkcnm_0012.asx) on the Shinjinbukan Shorin Ryu homepage has some videos of the various Naihanchi kata that will give a good idea of how some of the traditional Okinawan schools practice this kata.

[Chris McLean]

I like to watch someone execute their Kata without consciously thinking about the kata. Staying in the present executing each move one at a time without thinking about the whole form all at the same time. I like to see an empty mind. I also like each move to be able to do damage to the imaginary opponent. If they are executing each move without the ability to do damage it doesn't look like its effective technique. Each individual technique should be executed with enough power that it can end the conflict causing the opponent to go to the ground and the fight is over because they can't continue. Each individual technique should be an ippon. Just knowing intellectually what the bunkai is is not enough practical application is paramount.

[shoshinkan]

Kind of on this subject 'rushed' kata, or one pace kata is one of my pet hates,

kata has kamae, combinations, slow/fast movements/sequences, soft/hard techniques, kime points for a reason.

Kata should be dramatic, or understanded dependant on the visualisation of the person training.

I guess my point is within the confines of the kata, it should be personal and will change with time accordign to ones understanding/intent of said kata.

Of course specific drilling methods of kata training are outside of this - ie get to the end as quick as possible, move through the kata very,very slowly joining all movements are training methods and shouldnt be confused with delivering the katas true long term message.

[trevorg]

I still don't believe a kata should change. It may be that when one is practising the kata the feel of what one is doing will inevitably be different to the way another feels it, but the fundamental principloe ought never to change.

I dont believe making a kata your own is the correct thing to do, assuming that means it is practically different to the way someone else does it. Once a kata changes from the way you have been taught it, it is not the same kata. End of IMHO.

[shoshinkan]

'but the fundamental principle ought never to change.'


Bingo, I certainly agree with that Trevor!

[Chris McLean]

I agree the rhythm and Kamae are in place for a purpose as are the proper postures and positions of the body, method of generating power, foot work, timing, and focus. I don’t like rushed forms either. What I am trying to say is sometimes I see people who perform their kata as if they are always thinking about the next movement and are moving slow when they are supposed to be exploding with speed because they are in conscious thought. My ability with writing the English language is as limited as my understanding of Kata. LMAO

[trevorg]

'but the fundamental principle ought never to change.'


Bingo, I certainly agree with that Trevor!

That sounds to me like you're saying I've been missing the point all along.

[shoshinkan]

Not at all Trevor,

You have over 30 years martial arts expierience,

I think I wasn't communicating the point well, thats all. :)

[Todd Lambert]

A little more Naihanchi can be seen on the Wonder Okinawa (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/index.html) site.

[trevorg]

Hi Jim

talking of monkeys, this rather tickled me......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-nEap1LtII

Trevor

[shoshinkan]

LOL,

whilst of course entirley inapropiate (poor chimp)the clip made me laugh like I havent laughed in a while!

Monkey see, monkey do indeed eh!

[trevorg]

LOL,

whilst of course entirley inapropiate (poor chimp)the clip made me laugh like I havent laughed in a while!

Monkey see, monkey do indeed eh!

What's really a downer is that I know some karetaka who are not as good as the chimp !

[shoshinkan]

The chimp moved pretty good IMO !

[Trevor Johnson]

The chimp moved pretty good IMO !

Chimps can be very dangerous. I recall one zoo breakout where they mutilated a person who tried to keep them from his wife. VERY strong, and those teeth are way better than ours...

They can be pretty sneaky, too. One trick wild chimps play is to wander into a baboon grouping, innocuously, and suddenly all jump one baboon and kill him. No warning. Ninja chimpanzees...

[trevorg]

Of course, if you prefer something more human and a little more classical...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jqpxOBrp8U

Osu, wa wa wa
trevor