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bwhite33
24th July 2006, 03:38
Any update on two books that have been mentioned in this forum:

"In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" by Ohgami Sensei

and the book Kato Sensei and group is writing?

Thanks

don
24th July 2006, 04:01
Any update on two books that have been mentioned in this forum:

"In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" by Ohgami Sensei

and the book Kato Sensei and group is writing?

Thanks

Or, alas, Kondo's Nikajo.

judasith
30th July 2006, 14:57
Hi,

My name is Giacomo, and I am the secretary of the European Daitokai's head, Antonino Certa Shihan, student of Takeda Tokimune and later of Kato, Sano and Arisawa Sensei. The book is being written by Certa Shihan, and includes never before published photos and writings by the late Soke, and an extensive historical and technical part.

At the moment the book is scheduled to be published in Italy by the end of October in Italian, then Nov-Dec in English through Budovideos.com. Next year also a french and spanish version are programmed.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

don
30th July 2006, 16:46
The book is being written by Certa Shihan, and includes never before published photos and writings by the late Soke, and an extensive historical and technical part.

At the moment the book is scheduled to be published in Italy by the end of October in Italian, then Nov-Dec in English through Budovideos.com. Next year also a french and spanish version are programmed.
Glad to hear it. Keep us posted. Best of luck with it.

bwhite33
31st July 2006, 01:16
Thanks Giacomo

bwhite33
19th October 2006, 13:40
Giacomo,

good day to you, Is Certa sensei's book on schedule?

Best regards,

judasith
19th October 2006, 14:20
Yes, the book is on schedule.

It will be published in Italy in major bookstores on the 2nd of November, and since about that same date, it will be available as a pre-order only from Budovideos.com, with a shipping estimate of January 2007.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

judasith
28th October 2006, 14:05
Dear fellow posters,

I'm very proud to say that our long-announced book about mainline Daito-ryu is, from today, available as a preorder on Budovideos.com.

At this address you will find the cover and a brief description of the contents, and you of course may ask any question in this post to me (I helped the author make it).

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=23778&cat=283&page=1

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

morpheus
30th October 2006, 16:55
Thanks for the info. I look forward to reading the book.

Jeff

judasith
31st October 2006, 15:08
Thank you very much for your interest. We worked very hard for years to make this book and to render it the most complete and comprehensive as possible.

I expect to have the first english copies of the book by the first-second week of december, but I know that Budovideos does a discount if people makes the order in advance.

judasith
6th November 2006, 16:27
UPDATE: The italian book is gone to the publisher and should be available from our online store in two weeks.

The english version should be ready and printed by the first half of december, slightly earlier than expected, so there's the possibility that those who preordered the book at Budovideos.com *might* receive the book in time for Christmas and new year's eve holydays.

Best regards to all,

Giacomo Merello

judasith
16th November 2006, 21:38
2nd UPDATE: The italian version of the book has been published and it is available to buy in Italy.

On the www.budovideos.com website there were added several photos of the book's contents, both the hystorical part and the technical part. So, everyone curious to have a glimpse of the book, please go to:

http://budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=23778&cat=283&page=1

Those who make the presale order will probably have an earlier shipment of the book.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

judasith
29th November 2006, 07:40
We're also very happy to have finally completed it. In Italy the book is going quite good, also because in Europe there aren't any serious books about Daito-ryu published, since Pranin's is only available as an import, and I don't think Omiya's book is about Daito-ryu....

Btw if there are any italian readers (or people otherwise interested) the Italian version of the book is available to buy at eshop.daito-ryu.com, online store of www.daito-ryu.com.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

judasith
22nd January 2007, 11:53
Dear fellow posters,

In the last announcement regarding the publishing of the book (I'm beginning to feel to much "commercial" for my tastes... ;) ) I write to confirm that the english version of our book will be available for final purchase within the week.

I already gave all the boxes with the book to FedEx for shipping in the States, where you may buy the book from budovideos.com:

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=23778&cat=283&page=1

I know that after the presale period ends, the price will go up, I don't know how much.

I wanted to say we really put a great effort in the making of this book, which needed almost two years to complete. We strived to make it the ultimate "manual" about Daito-ryu ever published, with history, principles and techniques of both the arts of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and Takeda-den Ono-ha Itto-ryu Kenjutsu, that we (and the last Soke) call as a unique art "Daito-ryu Aikibudo". It took many months of translations from original japanese text written by the Soke and other teachers, a trip to Hokkaido, and many nights of writing and checking to prepare the book, but I'm very happy with the results, which are as comprehensive and scholar-oriented as possible. I almost went mad with the reference notes on the eimeroku of Takeda Sokaku, of which an extensive translation (and original photos) is present in the History chapter.
We also made professional photos of a choice of techniques from all the mokurokus and curriculum of Daito-ryu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu (I'm present in many photos, let's open a Trivia if you find which one of the guys I am... *hint* I usually keep my hair long :P )

There's also a great number of original photos of the Soke, Kato, Sano, Arisawa, Certa Senseis since the end of the Sixties to today and also diplomas, historical photos (one of the most interesting is an ancient one dating from the first years of 1900 where the art name written on a sign over some of Sokaku's students is "Daito-ryu Jujutsu" and not "Aikijujutsu").

It's very interesting for the nastiest of you the part with the biographies of the most important teachers of mainline Daito-ryu.

In any case we tried and made the book evading attacking other people or associations and more on what Daito-ryu really was, still is, and focusing on what we know and practice. Of course in a natural process you will find many answers to *some* of the polemics and discussions we've had in these last few years, but in a very polite, non aggressive, yet satisfactory "japanese" way. Not that I believe that "taleban-like crusaders" of this or that school will still even try to admit something even presented with documental evidence, but especially for this reason you will see that the book will be more scholarly-oriented and less polemic than you may imagine, the purpose being the diffusion of the history and principle of Daito-ryu, not sterile and futile (and probably petty) succession issues.

I really hope you will enjoy the book and find it an useful resource and reference regarding Daito-ryu, as I know that it is, regardless of the school you're in (well, maybe not if you're Saigo-ha students - that may be different since that art is similar to Daito-ryu like apples to salami).

Best regards to you all and a sincere dedication of the book to the E-budo community without which (in a positive and a negative meaning) probably the only serious book about Daito-ryu would still be "Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters" by Mr. Pranin.

Also thanks to Nathan, who showed to be a guy with an open mind.

Giacomo Merello

Mark Jakabcsin
22nd January 2007, 22:18
Giacomo,
Thanks for the update. I am looking forward to receiving my copy.

Take care,

Mark J.

Nathan Scott
22nd January 2007, 22:55
Giacomo,

Wow, you're going to be famous now!


Also thanks to Nathan, who showed to be a guy with an open mind.

Oh, in that case - disregard what I just said about Tokimune in the "what is aiki" thread. :D

Waiting for my book to arrive,

Benkei the Monk
22nd January 2007, 23:13
I'm an Italian practitioner of Daito Ryu not belonging to the Daito Kai of Certa sensei. I was lucky enough to read the Italian version of the book some weeks ago.


In any case we tried and made the book evading attacking other people or associations and more on what Daito-ryu really was, still is, and focusing on what we know and practice. Of course in a natural process you will find many answers to *some* of the polemics and discussions we've had in these last few years, but in a very polite, non aggressive, yet satisfactory "japanese" way. Not that I believe that "taleban-like crusaders" of this or that school will still even try to admit something even presented with documental evidence, but especially for this reason you will see that the book will be more scholarly-oriented and less polemic than you may imagine, the purpose being the diffusion of the history and principle of Daito-ryu, not sterile and futile (and probably petty) succession issues.

Yes, probably something could be intepreted as unilateral and will certainly be matter for future discussion but actually I liked the book very much. I think the best chapter is the historical one, with full detailed pictures and original documents of Takeda sensei. I liked also very much the aim of writing not a technical book but a general one about the art.

I think it could be of interest for aikijujutsu practitioners. Enjoy it!

judasith
23rd January 2007, 23:21
Thanks to all of you guys for the encouragement...

I heard now from Budovideos.com that the book is finally available since this very morning!

I will wait for you all to read it, I'm here to answer (and argue :P ) any of your doubts, as always (or maybe ADD some doubts???)

Giacomo

morpheus
25th January 2007, 15:47
Giacomo,

I am waiting for my copy. I look forward to receiving the book, it should be here in a week!

thanks
Jeff

Nathan Scott
27th January 2007, 04:06
Hi all,

Got my copy yesterday in the mail from budovideos.com. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but there is some good information in it. Here are some first impressions.

Positives:

- Very nice for a self-publication. Good quality with a good photo quality reproductions.

- Interesting history section, some of which is explained in more detail that previously. The translations of Tokimune's writings, and the sections of the eimeiroku are especially valuable.

- Though not perfect, the English translation is quite good.

Negatives:

- Cost. I paid over $40 w/ shipping within the state I live for a 223 page soft cover book. That is a lot.

- Though there are some new historic photos, most of them are of demos, seminar participant photos, or rank certificates.

- There are 122 eimeiroku listings translated. It would have been really outstanding to have the remaining ones translated as well.

- There are a number of Japanese translation or romanization errors. Some are understandable, but others could have been easily verified via an internet search.

**

Over all a usefull book to have in the collection, with information from the Tokimune line that has not been available until now. A good effort at a bit of an investment.

Regards,

judasith
27th January 2007, 11:36
Dear Nathan, thanks for the appreciation.

Regarding some of the "negatives": cost is an issue especially on the English version of the book, for a number of reasons. The great material translated from japanese DID cost really a lot, unfortunately in Italy a native japanese-italian translator who does understand old kanji is waay expensive. In any case since no other book has even near the content of mainline Daito-ryu information that ours has, it's a one time investment only. It's not like you buy Daito-ryu books every day... but certainly for some people cost is an issue. In any case the reseller sets his own price...

The eimeiroku: 122 listings are a lot, especially when no one did *ever* translate them! This is for many reasons: 1) only the most important names are useful 2) Translating the eimeiroku was the most expensive part of all 3) If I had filled 40 pages of the book with eimeiroku translations it would not have been very fun for the reader... In any case all the most important characters, famous and not, are covered here... we *might* consider translating all of them, but you must understand they are something like 9-10 booklets with maybe 80-100 pages each! We would have to publish a sort of "eimeroku encyclopedia" with just that and I'm not sure we even can, aside from a money standpoint, on a legal basis.

The romanization was done by the Japanese translator, who used a different romanji writing method for it: for instance she wrote "Aidu" instead of "Aizu", while still reading the same in phonetics. They're both right, depending on the romanization system you use. We tried to "correct" them for us westerners used to reading always "Aizu" but certainly here and there we may have missed some.

morpheus
16th February 2007, 21:08
I enjoyed the book very much. I thought it was very well done. Excellent photos to display the techniques. The book itself was very well put together, nice design and nice look. I would have like to have seen additional material/space on Sato Sensei as well as Arisawa Sensei. All in all I really have enjoyed the book.

Anyone else?

Jeff

Nathan Scott
20th February 2007, 09:25
Giacomo et al,

Well, I finished the book about a week ago, and have some further comments to offer. Unfortunately, the book ended up having more problems than I first noticed, but let me start with a disclaimer that I really am trying to be positive about this.

The short version, for those that don't wish to read all of the following, is that - while there is some new and interesting information in this book, there are so many translation errors and poorly edited English that it puts the majority of the text into question (in terms of correct understanding of the intended meaning). If you are curious about Tokimune's line of Aikibudo, this is still an important book to have access to, and as Giacomo pointed out, it's not like there are a lot of credible Daito-ryu books out there to spend money on anyway. But if Tokimune's Aikibudo is not high on your list, then you can probably hold off on this without any regrets and hope for a new and improved edition someday.

Here we go:

1) Translation. The translation into English (I'm assuming from Italian) was promising at first glance, but ended up being so bad at times that you had to read some of the sections several times to guess the intended meaning. The Japanese translation is worse, which causes the frustration of not being sure if even the quotes from Tokimune are accurate or not, since they seem to have been translated from Japanese into Italian, then Italian into English.

It is very rare to have a "perfect" translation of anything, but what is obvious from reading this book is that only one Japanese speaker translated the Japanese sections (I'm guessing someone's girlfriend, rather than a professional translator or budo-ka), and a native English speaker was not even consulted to check the English. There are many simple mistakes that could have been avoided if just one native English speaker and one other Japanese speaker would have checked it prior to going to press.

For example, on page 32 of the eimeiroku section, an entry for Miyazawa Kenkichi shows him as being a "Master of Yagyu Shinin-ryu", and Certa even makes a footnote explaining that this ryu is a "system comprised of Kenjutsu and Jujutsu with origins in common with the most famous Yagyu Shinkage-ryu." Well, I checked the eimeiroku entry in the original Japanese and the kanji IS the same kanji used for theh famous Yagyu shinkage-ryu! The translator was obviously not a martial artist, and simply guessed wrong on the "kage" kanji, believing it should be read as "in" (an alternate reading of the same kanji). Certa apparently did an internet search (as I did) on Yagyu Shinin-ryu and found a reference or two from some type of manga that also mistranslated the kanji at some point, and then made a footnote entry in the book based on his "guess" from an internet search. Mistakes such as these could have been easily avoided.

2) History. The history section is interesting, though much of it is almost identical to the information that Kondo Sensei has on his recently updated website. Since the majority of information and quotes in this book from Tokimune appear to come from the "Daito-ryu Aikibudo" manual, written by Tokimune and issued to instructors, perhaps this is why(?). But there are still "interesting" questions that come from reading this section in the book:

- If ippondori was originally an Ono-ha itto-ryu kodachi technique, but is also the favorite technique of Takeda Shingen, does that mean that Takeda Shingen was also trained in Ono-ha itto-ryu - or that OIR stole a Takeda family kodachi technique and made it the first technique in their own kodachi series?

- The second headmaster of Itto-ryu (and founder of the Ono-ha itto-ryu), Ono Tadaaki, taught OIR to the Tokugawa Shogun Hidetada and Iemitsu. Hoshina Masayuki studied OIR from the third headmaster Ono Tadatsune, who was also a teacher to the Shogunal family. Hoshina became the lord of Aizu and a teacher to Tokugawa Iemitsu. DR says that Hoshina Masayuki passed down both oshikiuchi and OIR to the succeeding lords of the Aizu clan, and in particular, to the Saigo family.

If all of this were true, it would explain why OIR is often listed as an otome-ryu of Aizu, even if it technically wasn't(?). Sokaku studied OIR from Shibuya Toma, who had a dojo in the Bangemachi district of Aizu. So while there appears to be a history of OIR taught in tandem with a root art of DR at various points in history, with other arts being listed as the otome-ryu in Aizu, what evidence is there to your claim that OIR and DR have historically ALWAYS been passed down together? While it might have been possible, it seems like a big guess to be making. Sokaku himself did not teach OIR his whole life either. He may have taught OIR early on, but the more he taught DR, the less he taught OIR. Even the type of swordsmanship that Sokaku practiced was so personalized that it did not have much resemblence to any line of kenjutsu that I'm familiar with. So the claim that Sokaku always taught OIR and DR together is just wrong.

- I see that the Daitokai is still pushing the idea of filling in the gaps of art transmission with known Takeda family generations. Why is it that the Daitokai is the only line of DR, including Kondo Sensei's branch - which is also largely derived from Tokimune's teachings - to continue to add names to the lineage that was not previously there?

- In the reference on pages 28 and 29, the book offers a translation of Hoshina Chikanori's tanka poem to Sokaku, which is nice. The problem is, the romaji translation of the characters, which is listed twice, starts with the word "Shiruyahito". However, the Japanese characters relating to the same section read as "Shiruhitoya", which sounds a little smoother to the modern ear, but is different than what has been translated in the book. I compared this to the Japanese version of the poem found on Kondo Sensei's web page, and found the kanji (kana) to match that of "Shiruyahito", which is different from the Japanese in the book. I'm just guessing, since I've never seen a photo of Chikanori's poem published anywhere, that the original poem was written as "Shiruyahito", but that your translator re-wrote it either accidentally or purposely with a couple of the characters in a different order. Again, if this is book is going to be an authoratative work on the subject, please tell us which reading matchs the original?

3) Eimeiroku. I ended up spending two full days comparing the book translation to the Japanese eimeiroku compilation. One thing I found is that I made a mistake (somehow) on my previous count of the eimeiroku section translated in the book. The book actually does translate ALL of the 133 entries that are typically re-printed as the "best-of" compiliation of the eimeiroku. Keep in mind that these entries have been reprinted from the original hand written books to a typed version in numerous publications now, so there is no issue with there being difficulty in reading the original handwriting. Translating the 133 compiled entries is an ambitious undertaking though, which I can respect. However, doing a bad job of it is almost a complete waste of time.

To begin with, most of the names we'll never know for sure the correct reading of no matter who translates it. It's simply the beauty of the Japanese language. On the other hand, the names of those who received Kyoju Dairi, or who were somewhat well known, have already been translated elsewhere and can be cross-referenced easily. This is something that would have easily saved making mistakes such as "Harada Shunzo" instead of "Harada Shinzo", "Matsuda Kochi" instead of "Matsuda Ryuchi", "Sato Konpei" instead of "Sato Kinbei", etc. More disappointing though is the poor translation of the comments for each entry, much of which was either wrong or incomplete. In some entries, where the comments began to get hard to translate, the translator just skipped them, which in some cases is really too bad. The entry for Takeshita Isamu, for example, is quite interesting, but most of it was not translated. It wouldn't have taken much more effort to check and clean up the work that was already done by the first translator, and it would have made the translation worth while.

4) Technical Section. Technical sections are nice, except Certa's own teachers have already released videos of them doing all the Hiden Mokuroku omote and ura techiniques themselves. Like the rest of the book, this section is also not without the occaisonal misspelling or mistranslation (like "Shimoku" instead of "Shumoku"). It is interesting to see some of the Tokimune version of OIR, though it is hard to visualize Sokaku teaching the Kendo Kata or doing the techniques in any way similar to that which is seen in the photographs. But that might just be my point of view.

5) Ranks. Among the photos are a Hiden Mokuroku and godan issued to Kato Sensei from Tokimune. Interesting, but nothing that is being contested (that I know of). Also included are photos of several of Certa's (or Certa Sensei as he calls himself) certificates, which include his sankyu, nikyu, ikkyu, and Shihan. All three kyu certificates are signed by Tokimune, which I guess is why it was important to publish them in his book. However, the down side is that the dates are published as well, which kind of works out funny: Certa states he began training at the Daitokan near the beginning of June, 1991, and trained there for about 3 months. The sankyu (3rd kyu) was issued on July 5th, 1991. Then, his nikyu (2nd kyu) was issued on August 12th of 1991, followed by his ikkyu (1st kyu) on August 23rd of the same year (well actually, within a three month period)! His Shihan certification was issued by Sano Sensei on August 1st of 1999. This Shihan ranking was awarded 8 years after his 1st kyu, through visiting the Daitokan once a year from Italy to train. I guess I see now why the Daitokai people did not want to discuss this issue back when we had our discussions on their bulletin board a few years ago. I guess the point being, why publish stuff like this, even if it's true? I don't see how it helps Certa's credibility.

6) Daitokai vs. Kondo. This book is not as subtle as it would like to be about the succession politics. Kondo is only mentioned in the book where it suits their position, and is excluded from other subjects and even translations. One of the big pushes from the Daitokai is their inclusion of the Tokimune OIR curriculum. Well, I don't see the inclusion or exclusion of OIR as a big deal, except perhaps if you are talking about DR Aikibudo, and not DR Aikijujutsu. Aikibudo has Tokimune's OIR as part of the art. However, it seems that the Daitokai often mixes up Tokimune's Aikibudo with Sokaku's Aikijujutsu, which is a mistake, and just adds to the confusion. There is some interesting political structure information in the book, but the reason for quiting the Daitokan and other succession issues are still left unsupported. Too bad, because this would have been a perfect opportunity to publish some of their documents - perhaps in place of Certa's kyu certificates or someplace else. Just a thought.

**

To Giacomo, I feel bad to have to write the above critiques, because I know you and others have invested a lot of energy and enthusiasm into this project. But I went into a fair amount of detail about the problems I saw with the book to show you and others reading some specific examples, so that you and others would know I wasn't just making negative comments for no reason. Also, it is helpful for those who have already dinvested the $42.95 + tax/shipping to know where some of the problems with the book are, so they can take them with a grain of salt or make corrections in their copy.

The main problem with the book is I think it was rushed too quickly. It's hard not to want to hurry up and publish something once you get the first draft done, but after the initial excitement of seeing your book published wears off, you are left with the long term longevity and reputation of the books contents. I noticed a number "1" on the upper part of the book spine - I assume Certa intends to publish additional volumes? Do yourself a favor and spend a little more time on checking the work before you go to press next time. The printing job and layout was quite professional, you just needed to have the text translated better and checked by a professional editor.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news - I'll still keep it on my bookshelf,

Nathan Scott
20th February 2007, 09:33
I just found the Special Thanks section, which lists a "Miyazaki Asami" as the Japanese translator. Is she a translator by profession, or a friend of the group? Just curious...

john_lord_b3
20th February 2007, 10:42
Dear Nathan,

Your review of Certa sensei's book is a good example of "Constructive Criticism". Instead of just making negative comments, you also provide helpful suggestions.

If only all the book critics in the world is as polite and as helpful as you are.. ;)

Have fun training!

judasith
20th February 2007, 17:25
Dear Nathan,

thanks for putting so much effort in reading our book.

Let me begin by talking about the translation:
1. Miyazaki-san is a professional jap-it translator but is not a budo practitioner. So she did sometimes got something wrong, in particular the names. some of them we managed to correct, some others no. The "SHIMOKU" instead of "SHUMOKU" is not an error just a different writing of the vocal.
2. there are some errors in the english translation too, especially in the histor of ono ha section, the reason being the english corrector, mr. Hallale didn't have much time for that last part. However overall I don't believe it is that bad, as many readers told me they really liked the book.

Ono-ha itto-ryu was taught by Tokimune Soke as fundamental parallel art to Daito-ryu, and *most* of his deshi practiced it. Also on the critics you made about the history of Daito and Ono-ha remember that we did not sought for a meticoulous scholar work, we just presented what Takeda Soke wrote and told about the history of his art. As you know some people believe that Daito is actually gendai, despite the many differences with modern budo, and the reason is the history of daito-ryu aikibudo is not easily (if at all) verifiable on documents. We take for granted what the Soke took for granted and wrote.

Certa sensei trained when in hokkaido from 8 to 10 hours a day under the best students and teachers of the Daitokan, and this is the reason he was awarded, after a loong period of practice (one to three months each summer, 8-10 hours a day) the Shihan. If you mutliply days and hours (plus the everyday practice in Italy) the time is waay more than many so-called "masters" of various arts.

Kondo Sensei was remembered as a simple dojo head while Kato Sensei was already director of the hombu, because that is the truth at the time. regarding the later period in the history chapter of the book there's an extensive recollection of the last years and what happened by Kato Soshi himself.

To not be misunderstood, please remember our book doesn't want to be a "ultimate guide" to ALL regarding Daito-ryu: it's just the most complete work on Takeda tokimune's Daito-ryu, faithful on his views, teaching methods and presented histories. The documents and pictures presented are mostly original and never before published in english. The techniques show a glimpse of ALL the sections of Daito-ryu curriculum, a thing that no one ever did up to today.
The book was called Daito-ryu Aikibudo and not Aikijujutsu for a reason: to present the art of Takeda Sokaku's son and heir, Tokimune, in the same faithful way he taught it to his senior students and uchideshi. If you don't have any interest in mainline daito-ryu aikibudo as Takeda Soke taught it, then by any means there are other books out there... (are they?).

Best regards,

Giacomo

Nathan Scott
20th February 2007, 22:40
Hello Giacomo,


Certa sensei trained when in hokkaido from 8 to 10 hours a day under the best students and teachers of the Daitokan, and this is the reason he was awarded, after a loong period of practice (one to three months each summer, 8-10 hours a day) the Shihan. If you mutliply days and hours (plus the everyday practice in Italy) the time is waay more than many so-called "masters" of various arts.

O.K.


Kondo Sensei was remembered as a simple dojo head while Kato Sensei was already director of the hombu, because that is the truth at the time. regarding the later period in the history chapter of the book there's an extensive recollection of the last years and what happened by Kato Soshi himself.

That is also something I don't think anyone is arguing. Kondo Sensei himself has stated that some of the senior students were more senior to him in the Daitokan (though perhaps not in overall Daito-ryu training). That is why it is all the more interesting that Kondo Sensei was ranked up above his seniors in the Daitokan and given Tokimune's confidence with his arts. Why didn't Tokimune favor his long-time honbu students instead?

As far as the book goes, I'm glad many are enjoying it, and I hope it sells well.

PS. I'm afraid "Shimoku" is not a Japanese word, even if it might sound like that when spoken in certain dialects. The kanji for "Shumoku", however, refers literally to a wooden bell hammer/striker. I presume Tokimune selected this name for the famous carrying-across-the-shoulders technique because of the "T" shaped visual associated with a shumoku.

Regards,

judasith
21st February 2007, 18:09
Dear Nathan,

We chose to write "Shimoku" because that is the italian phonetic translitteration of the word as in Japan they say it (in english it sounds SHEmoku). Thanks for the suggestion anyways.

Regarding Kondo Sensei, it's always the same story... neither our teachers recognize him, and he our teachers. They practiced Daito-ryu Aikibudo by Takeda Tokimune and is what they still teach; Kondo Sensei said in an interview in Black Belt that he tried to study the art from different sources trying to recover Sokaku's techniques, so he says he practices Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (also because he doesn't practice Ono-ha Itto-ryu). About his Menkyo I expressed my PERSONAL OPINION many times, I don't believe it was awarded him by Takeda Soke, but by his daughter, who signed with her father's hanko trusting Kondo Sensei's word that the Soke wanted to award him a menkyo, when Kato Sensei relinquished the hanko in 1992 (up to then he held the hanko and signed with it at the Soke's stake).
In any case, even if Takeda Soke DID award him the menkyo, he did it for political reasons, because Kondo Sensei was richer and better connected than our teachers, who are very good technically and as human beings but never wanted to expand the art or have political compromises to increase it. They're without doubt (always in MY OPINION) the true "technical" heirs of Takeda Soke, but still they live in very small country and sea-side towns of Hokkaido.

The official position of Kato Sensei on the matter os succession you can read on pages 57 to 59 of our book.

And as a last question: why was it that also the Administrative board of Takeda Soke's Association, in the person of Mr. Yamada Michio and Mrs. Nakagawa Ise, long time friends of Tokimune and President and Vice-president of the Daitokan and DRAikibudo association, remained with Kato Sensei and didn't go with Kondo Sensei, if he really was the "official" new headmaster?

Why even all his (of Kondo Sensei) best long-time collegues and students, like for instance Ishibashi Sensei (who was also student of the Soke) broke off from him?

BUT we wanted to not increase this sterile (albeit for us pacific) succession topic also in the book, and this is the reason the book is ABOUT Daito-ryu Aikibudo, its history, principles and techniques, as the last Soke Takeda Tokimune presented them, we chose not to add fuel on the fire, but simply present a panoramic view of the art to everyone interested, trying to leave politics out.

Giacomo Merello

Nathan Scott
22nd February 2007, 04:20
Hi,


We chose to write "Shimoku" because that is the italian phonetic translitteration of the word as in Japan they say it (in english it sounds SHEmoku).

If you spelled it that way based on how the word sounds to you in the dialect that you are used to hearing, then I'm afraid you chose to spell it wrong. I think you'll find there are many words in various languages that are not spelled the way they sound. The reason for this is because people have different accents depending on which part of a country they live, and pronunciation tends to morph over time. That is why there are dictionaries, which you may notice contain only one way of spelling a word. I highly recommend the use of them (and spell-check).

The other problem with randomly spelling romanized Japanese words however you like is that the Japanese language is based on kanji and kana (which contain the meaning), not the spoken or romanized language. So without the addition or kanji and kana (and knowledge of how to read them) in a translated text, the only way we can guess the intended meaning of a romanized Japanese word is by the spelling. For example, if someone else in the English speaking world did not know what "Shimoku" was supposed to mean, and tried to look it up in a dictionary using your spelling, they would not find anything. Don't take my word for it - ask your professional translator. ;)


In any case, even if Takeda Soke DID award him the menkyo, he did it for political reasons, because Kondo Sensei was richer and better connected than our teachers, who are very good technically and as human beings but never wanted to expand the art or have political compromises to increase it. They're without doubt (always in MY OPINION) the true "technical" heirs of Takeda Soke, but still they live in very small country and sea-side towns of Hokkaido.

Not to get off subject, but even if you exclude the menkyo kaiden, Kondo Sensei still holds higher dan ranks, densho, and positions (like Soke Dairi) than anyone in the Daitokan group, and everyone recognizes these ranks and positions as being legit. Or are you saying that all these are political too? If so, then your group is basically saying that Tokimune issued ranks, licenses, and densho based for reasons of political positioning. And even if this was true, he still left Kondo Sensei in charge, and the ex-Daitokan students all chose to disregard their teachers wishes in favor of doing their own thing. After all these discussions and debates, I still don't see it coming down to anything else but this.


The official position of Kato Sensei on the matter os succession you can read on pages 57 to 59 of our book.

Yeah, I read the whole book, and like I said, there is plenty of unsupported political posturing in it, even if specific names were not used.


And as a last question: why was it that also the Administrative board of Takeda Soke's Association, in the person of Mr. Yamada Michio and Mrs. Nakagawa Ise, long time friends of Tokimune and President and Vice-president of the Daitokan and DRAikibudo association, remained with Kato Sensei and didn't go with Kondo Sensei, if he really was the "official" new headmaster?

I dunno - maybe they knew the Daitokan people much better and for longer than Kondo? Maybe they assumed (or hoped) the senior Daitokan people knew what they were doing, or, felt sorry for them for being stepped over in favor of Kondo? As far as Yamada and Nakagawa, I understand they were supporters of the art, but don't understand why their opinions about the politics of the art should be held in such high regard. Wasn't Yamada someone from the Yamada Fisheries, where Tokimune first taught? Nakagawa met Sokaku while she was a young girl, studied DR a bit, and was friendly with Tokimune. Does meeting Sokaku as a child give you some kind of special power or insight? It's great these two were friends with Tokimune and supported his efforts, but why should their opinion hold any more weight than the people currently training in the art under Tokimune who are directly affected by such things?


Why even all his (of Kondo Sensei) best long-time collegues and students, like for instance Ishibashi Sensei (who was also student of the Soke) broke off from him?

You'd be surprised how many people break away from a dojo or art once they find that they have been passed over for a promotion or for succession of a system. It is very common. The fact that members local to the area who knew the Daitokan members and didn't know Kondo as well quit is really not all that shocking. What is shocking is selecting a name like "Seishinkai" (pure-hearted group) and claiming that they are following the "true will" of Tokimune by going against his daugher and appointed representative. But anyway, if you want to discuss this again, let's move over to the succession debate forum and leave this forum open to further book discussions.

BTW, the next time you guys are writing a book you also might think about applying for an ISBN and Library of Congress number. These will allow stores to better catalog the book and be added to things like libraries. It's not hard to do, and there are instructions online.

Regards,

johan smits
22nd February 2007, 12:47
I have not read the book yet, but I will order a copy.
There is something I would like to share, actually nothing new - nothing what has not been written before but still.

I think it is in the book - The name of the Rose - by Umberto Eco in which it is stated - ' books are not to be believed but to be subjected to inquiry.'
This is a healthy attitude. The internet and all sorts of communication make it much easier for people to share information and to react critically towards authors. This is not neccesarily a bad thing when it is done with care and good intentions.

I remember reading some time ago critical statements about the books by Donn. Draeger - The martial ways of Japan (3 vol's) in which it was plainly written that he could and should have done better research on some subjects. But that was written some thirty years after publication. Other authors have been given similar critical statements.

Me, little friend of all the world, thinks it is wonderful when someone with a lot of experience in one of the arts takes the time and the trouble to publish a book on it and wants to share photomaterial and information.
I quess more people than we think are doing research and some of them wait with publishing until they got all the facts right - proven beyond a doubt.

Sadly these are the researchers who will never publish anything at all. The perfect book does not exist. What do exist are books with admittedly probably errors. This is not a bad thing - since research is an ongoing process these books can be used as stepping stones so to speak for further research.
Anyone who does not understand that is well - let's say shortsighted.

Best regards to you all,

Johan Smits

Scott Harrington
22nd February 2007, 15:25
My two cents on the book, “Daito-ryu Aikibudo: History and Technique” by Antonio Certa – great book.

Now on to other things…….

To Nathan, Buddha said it best. Moderate. Moderate the e-forum and moderate the tone. Yes, you bring much to the discussions, but remember it’s e-budo aikijujutsu forum, not Nathan‘s super right opinions page. (writer’s note: have met Nathan and he is a good guy – there.)

To Giacomo, you guys hit it out of the park. A few quibbles here and there, but Certa sensei and the team (putting the book together and translating) should be proud of themselves! Just tell me there is going to be a second book – please!

So, what is my review?

1. Appearance is excellent, cover and quality of printing is first class. Pictures inside are nice and bright, with a mix of instructional shots (yeah, yeah!) to personal shots of training in Japan.
2. Material in the book is topnotch. A combination of material from the Daitokan newsletters, personal experience, and that valuable commodity – explanation. This volume gives an overview of the curriculum, atmosphere, personalities and history of the Takeda Tokimune branch.
3. Weak point is the translation. A good extensive run through in Word (English) would have smoothed out readability. Live and learn. Still not bad.

Some comments have come out about the book, so this is my rant.

Start off on the translation. Mentioned the use of Word, I even caught an Italian word that had been passed over at the bottom of one page. But consider the task here. Go to Japan, train hard, gather material in a very xenophobic language, translate into Italian this material and then compile and write about it. Take the step farther and translate into English, and publish. Wooah. You guys bit off one hell of a piece, and still hit a homerun. I bet there are some good beer-drinking stories about this enterprise.

To Nathan on the translation, I agree on the readability. On the fine points of kanji, get a life! I am reminded of two tales of wonder and delight. The first is “Canon of Judo” by Mifune which is unbelievably great (the original – which I have and you readers don’t!) I have never seen such a hatchet translation into English in my life. But still a classic.

The second concerns the must have series of “Sword & Spirit” edited by Diane Skoss. She or her husband had written a review (AJ) of Lovret’s “Budo Jiten” and pointed out what were essentially nitpicking things about kanji this and in use it would be this instead of that and so on. Out comes her excellent first volume and soon after on their webpage (I don’t know if it is still there) comes out an extensive list of kanji errors found in the book.

There is a reason Japanese is not the language of the world (besides losing WW II). They have three “alphabets’, need one for foreign words, need one of them to put cheat codes on to know how to pronounce uncommon words, have changed meanings over time, and have dialects making it difficult for even native speakers to understand. (I’ve trained with a guy that was on the mat with O’sensei and said his presentation was as difficult to follow as his new age other worldly philosophy.)

On price of this book. Well, what do you expect? I have dropped some big change on videos, DVD’s and books to get a better idea of Daito-ryu. Come on! It’s a small market for Daito-ryu (talk to Pranin about that) and the laws of economics have something to say here. For what you get – reasonable cost. ‘Nuff said.

On the succession issue and such. For Nathan (the fine TV star), just imagine if someone went and trained with Obata Sensei only in Aikijujutsu and no sword and then said he’d mastered the system, not mentioning or knowing Shinkendo, I think you would raise an eyebrow. Kondo sensei is great on the mat but I have never seen him do Ono-ha Itto-ryu (he may very well know it). From Certa’s account in this book, not only did they do this often, but kept in both original and Takeda Sokaku henka (variations) in the curriculum. Seems pretty extensive and essential there for the art.

Regarding Kondo sensei and succession, the book is actually quite tame. In a perfect world, Takeda Tokimune would have had a big party, Pranin taking photos, and transferred the ryu to one man (or perhaps many). He did not do this due to poor health. We (the e-budo forum guys) were not there and also we should have no particular input either. (But it makes great dish.)

It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.

Having never met Certa Sensei myself, on his skills I cannot comment. But from the book, it seems he had done quite a lot of Aikido before making the leap. Just imagine putting on the white belt, starting a new climb up the mountain where there were remarkable similarities and strange differences to what he’d known before. He had more background in Aikido (whether a weathered down version as some claim or merely a spinoff from Daito-ryu) than Ueshiba had when he began his studies and got his first scroll in record time.

In closing, “Daito-ryu Aikibudo” should be on the shelf of every Aikido and Daito-ryu student if he wished to be fully aware of the art that Takeda Sokaku left. And like Waldo, find that loose Italian word at the bottom of a page.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

George Kohler
22nd February 2007, 17:11
Moderators have opinions too, as do most people who post here on E-Budo. Is Nathan not allowed to have an opinion and post it here?

miguel angel ib
22nd February 2007, 17:54
Mr. Certa's book is already out and is a very interesting read. Hea shares plenty of quotes from Tokimune Takeda to back up many of his statements and it is chock full of photos. Definitely worth it, at least for me.
miguel ibarra

Scott Harrington
22nd February 2007, 20:28
George,

We all have opinions. There's also a saying about opinions ---- so value mine accordingly. I also value Nathan's (he has kept this forum nicely active). Just saying don't be too critical. As forum leader he has a little more weight, pro or con.

Thanks for the feedback, I did say it was a rant on my part.

Scott Harrington
co-author of "Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido"

George Kohler
22nd February 2007, 22:08
Just saying don't be too critical. As forum leader he has a little more weight, pro or con.

Ok, now I understand.

Ted Howell
23rd February 2007, 03:04
I hadn’t planned on posting anything regarding the book, but since the thread has regained some life, I will make a few brief comments. I purchased the book out of curiosity, with the hope it would clarify some issues. Overall, the book was interesting and I will not note all of the inaccuracies and errors I found throughout. I believe Nathan has already pointed out most of the issues, but I wish to clarify a few things.

Needless to say, the book is pretty much what I expected and it actually shed some light on certain past discussions / claims made by the Daitokai. Giacomo implied that the information contained in the book regarding legitimacy would be enlightening. I found that not to be the case. Although I searched, I failed to find any “smoking guns.”

Scott,
“It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.”

I find it quite interesting that Giacomo supports Certa Sensei’s position by stating that he trained intensively while at the Daitokan and includes the time he trained outside the dojo, while at the same time has always discounted Kondo Sensei’s training outside the Daitokan…hummmm. Regarding Certa Sensei’s rank (kyu) diplomas; by showing them to the world, you perfectly outline one of the underlying reasons Kato Sensei’s group was asked to stop training while Tokimune Sensei was absent. That is just one example of how rank promotions were being handed out liberally, jeopardizing the integrity of the art.

For example, it took Kato Sensei two years to obtain shodan; training every day under Tokimune Sensei. But Certa Sensei obtained ikkyu in three months! Also, I would like to point out the claim / statement: “Antonino Certa Shihan, student of Takeda Tokimune and later of Kato, Sano and Arisawa Sensei.” As has been clarified before, even by your own group, Tokimune Sensei had already stopped teaching before Certa Sensei arrived in Japan. Technically, the statement is just another stretch of truth as he was a student of Kato Sensei (overseen by Tokimune Sensei) from the beginning. The two are very different, as you imply that Certa Sensei was a direct student of Tokimune Sensei that later studied under Kato Sensei. It is interesting that although the book is replete with pictures, none of them is of Antonio Certa and Tokimune Sensei.

In regards to Kato Sensei’s biography information, I am extremely pleased that so much time was invested in explaining his background. In the past you have “lumped” Kato Sensei in with other senior students. Well, I was waiting for something substantive, but the book does not deliver. Actually, the book shows the public yet another perfect example of your flawed claims. The biography actually shows that Kato Sensei is not only Kondo Sensei’s junior in Daito-ryu, but also as a member of the Daitokan. I also failed to locate anything about Kato Sensei serving as an uchideshi (for 9 years). If I missed it, please let me know where it is noted.

judasith
23rd February 2007, 19:43
Dear Ted,

I'll try and answer at my best ability and patience.

1. Certa Sensei's ikkyu
It is true that Kato Sensei got his Shodan in 2 years, but he was without any experience at the time, never having ever practiced martial arts; Certa Sensei had 40 years, and began practicing at 15 years, so he had 25 years of Aikido practice under Fujimoto, Tada, Nemoto Senseis and others, 7 years of Karate with Shirai Sensei and 5 years of Kendo with Kim Tae Jun Sensei. So he DID pick up things a little easier than without having any experience. In any case the Shodan was awarded him after about two years of practice, in 1993.

Takeda Soke lived beside the dojo and sat at every lesson, correcting here and there all the students, including Certa Sensei. So he DID was a direct student of the Soke, even if the biggest part of the teaching was conducted by Kato Sensei and Arisawa Sensei, but of ALL the students of the Daitokan.

2. Regarding Kato Sensei, he was uchideshi since, as you may read on the biography pages on our book, he practiced every day even during mealtimes!
I don't know what an uchideshi is if not that!
I don't frankly believe Kondo Sensei trained even near the time Kato Sensei did...

I don't know what else we should have wrote on the book MORE than we did... we posted unpublished material by Takeda Soke, including parts of his compiled manual and his HANDWRITTEN one (we published the photos of the first pages of both the typed and the handwritten one), A LOT of photos, including many diplomas and certificates, we showed some of the more advanced techniques of Daito-ryu, including some never as of yet shown in ANY other source.... In all truth I agree on the critics oon some parts of the translations, but I really don't on the content: there never was and is to my knowledge a book with that much content on mainline Daito-ryu, and the news is all we wrote is SUPPORTED by documents, photos, eimeroku translations, Takeda Soke quotes etc. etc. etc.. You wanted background on our teachers? There's an entire chapter with photos, interviews, certificates!

What did you want more?

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

Steve Delaney
24th February 2007, 12:00
2. Regarding Kato Sensei, he was uchideshi since, as you may read on the biography pages on our book, he practiced every day even during mealtimes!
I don't know what an uchideshi is if not that!
I don't frankly believe Kondo Sensei trained even near the time Kato Sensei did...

Giacomo Merello

Giacomo,

Since Takeda Tokimune's last will and testament and the will of his daughter preside over this, isn't that really a moot point?

Takeda Tokimune sensei chose someone dependable to carry on the tradition, in order with his father's guidance and teachings. (Remember from interviews with Takeda Tokimune, he revealed that Takeda Sokaku didn't really trust that many people.) You've also got to remember that Kondo was taught originally by Hosono Tsunejiro and then by Yoshida Kotaro.

That being said, not everyone's learning aptitude is the same - Some people will take months to get their ukemi right and others will be able to do the same thing in a matter of weeks, therefore the length of time served in the greater scheme of perserving and promogulating a martial tradition, is not really relevant.

Respect,

Nathan Scott
26th February 2007, 06:36
Hi Scott,


To Nathan, Buddha said it best. Moderate. Moderate the e-forum and moderate the tone. Yes, you bring much to the discussions, but remember it’s e-budo aikijujutsu forum, not Nathan‘s super right opinions page. (writer’s note: have met Nathan and he is a good guy – there.)

Thanks for the advise. I don't remember shutting down anyone else's opinions though. Like other threads, all sides of the discussion are welcome, as long as they are backed by something of substance. BTW, I spent quite a bit of time checking the translation of the book and backing up my "opinion" with examples of the errors, and in some cases, suggestions on how they could have been avoided. If after reading the list of errors you still feel the book is worth the $$$, then more power to you.

I would have been happy to give this book a good review if it was warranted. In fact, I was optimistic in my first post based on the first impression I got from the good quality printing and photo reproduction.


To Nathan on the translation, I agree on the readability. On the fine points of kanji, get a life!

You've got to be kidding me?!? You can't talk about a book based largely on translation from Japanese language and then tell me to get a life about the "fine points of kanji". Kanji IS Japanese language. The opinion part of my posts is based on personal experience with the transliteration and self-publishing of a book, and experience with professional translation, so it's not like I'm just talking out of my rear-end based on anal retentive tendencies (ART, tm).

In regards to the Canon of Judo, yes, the original translation was virtually unreadable. But since it was largely a photograph driven technical manual, and a classic book already in Japanese with no other translation available, it was still considered a valuable resource. The latest translation is a welcome relief.

I don't know why you are looking so hard to find excuses for the myriad of mistakes in Certa's book, but we are in a time when poor translations can be avoided with far less effort than that which was required 20 years ago. There are far more resources available to us, and far more people (and martial artists) that are competent to translate. If there were the usual typos and mistakes here and there, I would have pointed them out while at the same time recommending the book. As I said before, what was frustrating about reading the book was how many mistakes *could have been easily avoided* with just a little more effort and time.

Japanese is a difficult language to translate, but for the most part, not impossible. A professional translator could have done a much better job. I've read professional translations, and I've read translations by native Japanese speakers who are not fluent in a second language. If the book would have only cost $10.00, it would have been much harder to complain about the content of it. But for a paperback book well over $40.00, I feel critiques such as mine are more than warranted. Sorry you disagree.


On the succession issue and such. For Nathan (the fine TV star), just imagine if someone went and trained with Obata Sensei only in Aikijujutsu and no sword and then said he’d mastered the system, not mentioning or knowing Shinkendo, I think you would raise an eyebrow.

Studying the sword was not a requirement for Sokaku's DR Aikijujutsu, and it is not a requirement in Obata Sensei's Aikibujutsu either. It did seem to be a requirement for Tokimune's Aikibudo though, so maybe that is why Kondo received MK in AJJ and has been using the titles Honbucho/Somucho instead of Soke?


Just imagine putting on the white belt, starting a new climb up the mountain where there were remarkable similarities and strange differences to what he’d known before.

I guess that could be tough. Or, it could not be. I guess it would depend on the individual and what kind of training they had. ;)


It’s interesting that Nathan comments about how much time Certa trained from Italy but the same rationale doesn’t apply to Kondo who commuted from Tokyo. Or Seishinkan guys who didn’t commute at all.

Yep. It's equally interesting how personally you're taking a valid critique of someone elses work!

Maybe Tokimune issued all ranks for political reasons? Certa has prior aikido experience, and Kondo prior DR experience. Maybe Tokimune took one look at Certa and decided he was clearly the right choice for the art and started signing certificates accordingly. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to receive my first two kyu ranks in the same month. But in any event, facts are facts, and the facts are that Tokimune favored Kondo in terms of succession and authority in the art over his own local students.

Part of why I brought up political issues here is because Giacomo has been promising for years that the the former Seishinkai group was going to translate a book (originally we were under the impression it was going to have been written by Kato Sensei himself) into English that would contain all kinds of proof showing why the Daitokai members are the legitimate "honbu" for Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. While there was some useful insight into the atmosphere at the Daitokan and the dojo structure, none of the claims that have been contested were supported. As one of the persons who was deeply involved in these discussions, I've been patient for the last 7 years giving them the benefit of the doubt. Looks like we nothing has changed in this regard.

Happy reading,

judasith
26th February 2007, 11:46
Dear Nathan,

While I agree on the ITALIAN to ENGLISH translations problems, mainly concentrated in a single brief chapter, I don't agree on the Japanese translations. I consulted with Miyazaki-san, which IS a professional translator, and she says the translations are right; they're not ALWAYS literal, because Japanese, as you know, is a sincopated language, and sometimes you MUST add or remove a single particle or word to make it sound right in italian and in english. This said, the translations are faithful in words and meaning to what the Soke wrote, we have (and we've shown them in picture) the original texts.

Different talk about the names of the martial artists: as you know it's VERY difficult to know how to write a Japanese name in romanji, and how to read it, since Kanji may sound very different. The names we could verify we wrote right, the others were guessed by the translator based on the most common reading. If some of the readers (you included) may rectify some of the names based on documents, we'll certainly correct in a future second edition.

Third point about translation is how did we (actually she: the translator) choose to write the KANJI sounds in ROMANJI. We chose the common form we use in Italy for it, which is mostly based on phonetics; italian and Japanese have almost completely identical pronunciations of the vocals (in english they are completely different).
So she chose to write Shimoku instead of Shumoku, Aizu instead of Aidu (which is formally more correct), Daito-ryu instead of Daitouryu; whether you find this right from your academical point of view I care up to a certain point - we chose a method and applied it from page 1 to the last, and the translations are right.

There is a typo on the Tanomo Saigo's poem, but it's not on the translation, it's in the writing in kanji which was mispelled during impagination and printing phase of the book. The translation in italian/english is correct, as was translated not from that, but from the original document.

Regarding succession issues and you apparent dissatisfaction about it, I only say this: for years, you and the US Kondo students, criticized me and my association because we talked bad about Kondo Sensei. My answer was, in the book, NOT to go on on a futile and sterile discussion which is not solvable by either one of us, but to simply concentrate on the INTERESTING part, history, techniques, original photos and great content on Daito-ryu Aikibudo/aikijujutsu THE ART, not THE POLEMIC.
I believe that was the right path to choose, talk about what you know, and what you do, and share the knowledge and information with other people... what better way there is to prove your legitimacy? We talked about Daito-ryu, the Soke, the Daitokan, our teachers, the principle and techniques of Daito-ryu Aikibudo, which includes Ono-ha because the Soke stressed this point in a very strong way (as everyone who also read mr. Pranin's book does know).
Why should have I based a book on Daito-ryu on criticizing other people, teachers, and associations? What THAT would have contributed to the art as a whole?
We based the book on what we are, we do, and we practice on TATAMI every day...
I believe that showing all of this and the BIG amount of content (ORIGINAL content) we DID help shed light on our association, which I hope it is clear and peaceful is legitimate and genuine Daito-ryu mainline. I don't care and neither I recently wrote and NEITHER the book have said we're the ONLY mainline, nor the ONLY heir to the Soke's legacy. Despite my personal opinions (sometimes also backed up on some evidence!), I DO respect Kondo Sensei, and his students, as another reality of Daito-ryu, I just find funny how HE stresses the point he's the "only one", showing his menkyo kaiden in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, while the Soke taught Daito-ryu Aikibudo (which is his systematized hiden mokuroku - also adopted later by the Takumakai, plus Daito-ryu bukiwaza and Ono-ha Itto-ryu).

We chose and prefered to talk ABOUT the art, enriching the culture and knowledge of everyone interested, sharing rare photos and couments, instead ENPOVERISHING everyone by starting an even bigger flame.
Let me be clear we COULD have added a couple more photos which would have shed even more light on Kondo Sensei and Kato Sensei relationship (of them being toghether, of dedications, of Kato sensei's biography in Kondo's own Japanese published book when he was just a Sandan, ETC. ETC.), but WHO would have profited from this? Certainly not the art, neither we (who would have received yet again critics for only talking bad about others and not talking on what we do), also including the fact that we really didn't like LEGAL actions on a book we wrote for developing the art in its complex.

We are happy if after you read the book you decide to go training, interested by the art we presented with so much care and content, to Kondo's dojo, or to Okamoto Sensei's dojo or to the Takumakai, as well as in our Daitokai.
So what do you want from me, from us? Another flame that would only make bleed our (meaning "daito-ryu practitioners") already small student base?

We presented the art we practice, Daito-ryu Aikibudo, its origins (Takeda Tokimune Soke), its legitimacy, its principle and its techniques, we backed this up with lots of evidence and documents; we're are a genuine and legitimate in every way Daito-ryu association. We train and teach very seriously and very hard, as any of our students can testify; we don't pull anyone's leg or try to fraud people using their ignorance like the Canadian Daito-ryu or Sogawa Kazuoki of the Saigo-ha do; the book's purpose was just this, and not else: explain what the art taught by Tokimune was and is today as is practiced by us in the same way it has been practiced in Abashiri at the hombu in the last 40 years, we don't care at all about who is the ONE and ONLY supposed heir of the art. You want to go studying Daito-ryu under Okabayashi? Go! Under Kondo? Go! Under Sagawa? Go! Our purpose was only to prove, as it is without even the slightest doubt, that our teachers are every bit as legimate as these are, and the art we teach and practice is genuine and serious.

If you like Daito-ryu, practice it, in every one's dojo (of course only if it has a traceable origin), and talk about it and its history, principle and technique how long as you like.. if you don't practice or don't like it, why the hell try to add fuel and arguments in a "only one heir" succession issue which is at best 16 years old now? We lost interest in that, believe what you will. I still believe, despite some small defects, that we did one hell of a job with our book to actually say something real, concrete and genuine about Daito-ryu and help expanding and sharing what the art is in the world.

In faith,

Giacomo Merello


P.s.

Regarding the high price, it was set freely by Budovideos.com, we sold it to them at a very different price, albeit already high - you don't translate, make professional photos, travel to japan back and forth for nothing, you know? This book for us is not on profit, is just on par with the covering of the costs. Sorry if it costs 45 dollars including shipment, but sincerely, since it's a one-time buy and Daito-ryu books in english with this amount of info and details are not properly falling from trees, it's not a SO incredible high cost, especially if you compare it to the other similar, but waaay different book supposedly about Daito-ryu in Budovideos.com same page as our own.

Nathan Scott
26th February 2007, 15:46
Giacomo,

In regards to translation, I wasn't talking about literal translations vs. functional translations. I'm talking about simple mistakes in translation, omissions, and romanizing problems. I already listed the biggest ones, so I won't go through it again.

If Japanese is romanized totally different in Italy, and the terms in Japanese to Italian dictionaries are spelled as you have done, then that is worth noting. However, if the Italian version was to be translated to English to be sold to English speakers, my point is that most will be confused by the alternate spelling. In many cases, to the point of not knowing what the meaning is. So the translation and meaning of Tokimune's writings for us English speakers is still not clear.


Different talk about the names of the martial artists: as you know it's VERY difficult to know how to write a Japanese name in romanji, and how to read it, since Kanji may sound very different.

I think you'll find that is the one part of the translation I didn't fault you for, because it is almost impossible. The only thing I might have done would be to include one or two of the other most likely readings in case a name were to come up at some later time in the future. But that is just a publishing preference (a bonus), and not something I would expect.


There is a typo on the Tanomo Saigo's poem, but it's not on the translation, it's in the writing in kanji which was mispelled during impagination and printing phase of the book.

Thanks for clarifying that.

As far as succession issues, who said you had to make a fight out of it? Publishing various documents is not the same thing as calling people names and saying that they suck. You published documents like Kato's Hiden Mokuroku and 5th dan certificate, but nothing else that supported some of the contested claims from our discussions in 2000. I brought it up because it was something you specifically said would eventually be addressed by the Daitokai when a book was published. Publishing pictures of Kondo and Kato together is not the type of evidence we had discussed. Nobody has stated that Kato, Sano, and Arisawa were not senior students at the Daitokan, or that they did not assist with instruction and management of the dojo. In any event, I'm glad your group is no longer interested in making claims to succession and are moving on to other things.

Again, good luck with the book, and future books, and happy training.

Chris Li
26th February 2007, 17:22
I consulted with Miyazaki-san, which IS a professional translator, and she says the translations are right;

I'll note, as a professional translator, that the general rule is that you always translate into your native language, so if Miyazaki is native Japanese then she really shouldn't be translating Japanese into Italian. There are certainly different styles of romanization, although they are fairly standardized - in any case, the "shi" and "shu" are just different, under any system.

Best,

Chris

Ted Howell
26th February 2007, 19:43
Giacomo,

“I believe that was the right path to choose, talk about what you know, and what you do, and share the knowledge and information with other people... what better way there is to prove your legitimacy?”

May I pose that you, who fueled the fire on so many occasions, have single-handedly jeopardized the claims of legitimacy made by your group. YOUR statements have shown to be contradictory and inaccurate time and time again. Now in print, past claims continue to ring out to be from someone who did NOT have the facts. I don’t believe anyone disputes your group’s long history or the connection they had with Tokimune Sensei. But the number of claims that have been shown to be inaccurate and / or completely false make people wonder what statements / claims are true.

A sample of past statements / claims:

1988
“Since the beginning of this year and until his death, Takeda Tokimune Dai Sensei didn’t teach anymore to anyone, but only supervised the lessons, sitting in the kamiza position when present, and demandating Shigemitsu Kato Sensei (nominated Kangicho, second- in- line of the school, in 1980) the honor of conducting the lessons on his behalf.”

“since for the last 11 years of life Takeda Sensei didn't actually teach”

“My teacher, Certa Sensei, was a direct student of the late Soke for two years.”

“In the summer of 1990, there were only three foreigners in Daitokan dojo: Alain Floquet, Antonino Certa and another student, a canadian that never went on with practice after that.”

“After many months of debate regarding the various succession issues of many Daito-ryu branches, I think we're finally getting to a point. Actually I'd like to ask for an interview Kato Sensei, ex-Kangicho and Honbucho of the Daitokan (and direct student of Takeda Tokimune since 1955).”

“He studied DIRECTLY under the Soke everyday from early '60s, also LIVING as uchi-deshi in the dojo for 9 years.”

“Kato Sensei was an uchi deshi and lived in the Daitokan for 9 years.”

Good luck with the book.

judasith
27th February 2007, 09:01
To Chris: Maybe you're right. Here in Italy we use commonly many different translitterations of the japanese "u" and "i" sounds; examples: jujutsu - jujitsu; jutte - jitte; also shumoku - shimoku. Probably this is wrong from a strictly literal and grammatical way; we are used to it, since here that's the norm, but probably we should have, considered that in english speaking countries there is a difference.

To Ted: the solution is very simple, I had been wrong on various occasions, even though not THAT wrong. I said '55, then '60 and it actually was some five years later. The book's purpose was also this: what's in the book HAS been verified and on most occasions proved by photos and documents. Don't worry I've been remprimanded by Abashiri for being at times too much "aggressive"... In any case my past blanderings do not in any way change what there is in the book, which is exactly what happened and when happened. In the book you have something verifiable, with references and accurate; of course it's a bit *pointless* to compare what a student writes sometimes in a forum (actually YEARS ago) to what the book says and holding the book's author or association to what the student (me) said at times. I'm sorry. In any case regarding Certa Sensei and Tokimune, my statements are still true: he IS a direct student of the Soke, but it IS true most of the teaching was conducted by Kato Sensei. Takeda Soke watched, stayed for half an hour, sometimes maybe corrected a beginner or a yudansha, then went away. This, and the fact that he WAS the Soke, he DID sign the kyu ranks of Certa Sensei is quite certainly saying the latter WAS a direct student of the Soke, even though MOST of the teaching was done by Kato Sensei.

Chris Li
27th February 2007, 14:55
To Chris: Maybe you're right. Here in Italy we use commonly many different translitterations of the japanese "u" and "i" sounds; examples: jujutsu - jujitsu; jutte - jitte; also shumoku - shimoku. Probably this is wrong from a strictly literal and grammatical way; we are used to it, since here that's the norm, but probably we should have, considered that in english speaking countries there is a difference.

"Jujitsu" and other like transliterations have been used in the US as well in the past - they're not used anymore because they were incorrect.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
27th February 2007, 15:27
Also as far as an "uchi-deshi" goes, someone who goes to the dojo every day and practices long hours, extra hours, on non-training days, etc., is NOT considered an uchi-deshi. Uchi-deshi traditionally are students who either LIVE in the dojo, with the teacher/headmaster, or someplace on the grounds adjacent to either. They might help cook, clean, fix things at the dojo, garden, run errands, give the teacher a bath, drive the instructor to and from various places, etc. Uchi-deshi will in turn receive serious instruction and attention and usually additional training regular students do not get. But heavy regular training - even if it is far more than everyone else at the dojo - does not make one an "uchi-deshi". Personally, I use the term "disciple" for those people to seperate them from the regular students, but I've yet to come across a perfect translation.

While being a disciple as I've described is the next best thing to an uchi-deshi though, it is not fair to those who have actually endured being an uchi-deshi to use the same term to describe them.

Regards,

Ted Howell
27th February 2007, 16:25
Giacomo,

I appreciate that you admit to have been wrong (many times). I understand that must be difficult to do publicly. But the problem that continues is many inaccuracies have been introduced into the book as well and now the public has to sort through them. How is one to know what is truth and what is not?

“the solution is very simple, I had been wrong on various occasions, even though not THAT wrong. I said '55, then '60 and it actually was some five years later.”

No, actually you were very wrong, as the correct date is seven years later than the second date you provided. Your explanation, “it was actually some five years later” is actually incorrect as well. The actual date as listed by Kato Sensei is 1967.

“what's in the book HAS been verified”

“what there is in the book, which is exactly what happened and when happened”

Really, I found numerous incorrect statements throughout. For example, on page 206, it is written, “ His faithfulness to the Honbu dojo was so deep that in year 53 of the age Showa (1978) the Soke gave Kato Sensei the assignment of General Secretary of the Honbu dojo, a role that he maintained, being constantly elected every other year, for the following 14 consecutive ones (which is, until at the end of the year 4 of the age Heisei, 1992).”

How can this be? Kato Sensei left the Daitokan in December 1991.

“it's a bit *pointless* to compare what a student writes sometimes in a forum (actually YEARS ago) to what the book says and holding the book's author or association to what the student (me) said at times.”

Well, isn’t your name listed on page 221 as the one who wrote the text?

judasith
27th February 2007, 16:49
Listen, Ted, I know you won't even consider any other explanation than one that supports Kondo Sensei, as I would expect from all of his students... but you are really talking about "angel's sex" as we say in Italy.

In our book there's more genuine and original material than in every other book ever published on the topic, including PHOTOS, DOCUMENTS, Takeda Soke direct QUOTES, TECHNIQUES up to all the curriculum. It's really easy in so vast and deep work to find this or that minor flaw, this time in translation, the other in discussing when the 4° year of Heisei begins and ends; and why do you do this? Simply because there's a sheer amount of things you can't criticize or discuss because they're real, they're there and you are not knowledgeable in them.

We never wrote or said in the book that Kato Soshi or the Daitokai is the only heir to the mainline tradition neither we wrote that Kondo Sensei isn't. We presented a book loaded with original material to talk ABOUT Daito-ryu, its history, its principles and its techniques, and almost every statement is backed up by a photo, a document or an excerpt from the Soke's writings.

If you are interested in Daito-ryu and practice it, I believe you should be happy to have read our book, if you didn't I'm sorry. Frankly I don't care much; with the amount of material we published I really don't believe our existance and importance as one of the biggest legacies of Takeda Tokimune Soke is in doubt any more.

As I said, if you like Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu and you have the opportunity, you may as well come to us or go to Kondo Sensei or to Okabayashi Sensei. My quest wasn't ever and still is not to prove we are the only one, but just to make even the most critic of Kondo's followers that we're here and are every bit as legitimate as he is.

Are you interested mostly in Aiki? Go practice with the Roppokai, Kodokai or Sagawa dojo... In complex blocks? Go to the Takumakai. If you're interested in the complete art of Daito-ryu AikiBUDO, come to us. If you're interested only in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, without weapons and Ono-ha, go to the Menkyo Kaiden Kondo Katsuyuki.

But do please stop to criticize our association with no reason AFTER we published a CLEAR book where we say who we are, what we do, where we learned it and how we teach it.

I don't believe talking now and again on sterile succession issues that frankly most people don't understand/want to understand/care will help developing the art, regardless of WHICH association teaches it.

I used to do like that, but 5 more years have passed, and I myself don't care anymore. We are what we wrote (and showed more than well) on the book, my quest now is only to have people learn genuine Daito-ryu, of any REAL association, instead of going to complete frauds as there are too many.

By all means, simply enjoy the book for what it is, the best (at the moment) source for mainline Daito-ryu, THE PRACTICED ART, not the POLITICS, with material from the Soke, photos, and big backgrounds of our teachers.

Good reading and best regards, I hope to meet and practice with some of you on tatami when we'll come to the U.s.


Giacomo Merello

Ron Tisdale
27th February 2007, 18:43
I hope I don't get myself into trouble with this, but,

Giacomo, it is obvious that you have matured quite a bit in the ensuing years.

Best, and good luck with the book,

Ron

Raff
2nd March 2007, 15:51
Dear all,


While reading the whole thread, I suddendly realized, how we, students of the Daitokai, are actually lucky. If it were not for Certa sensei's efforts, there would be almost no Daito-Ryu in Europe. What Certa Sensei did is truly amazing, he could have found hundreds of (good) reasons for carrying on studying Aikido instead of switching off to Daito-Ryu. Selling your appartment, leaving your country and your job to study a martial art virtually unknown in the Western world at that time is not something very common to say the least.

I'm amazed to read that people who have never met directly Certa Sensei or felt his technique tend to assume to he got a little too quickly his Kyu rankings. Talent in martial arts and more specifically in Daito-Ryu is not the exclusive property of Mr Kondo.

It is always easy to criticize people, but I guess that many people browsing this thread must also realize that it is far easier to study Daito-Ryu quietly in one's home town (with the "very valuable help" of some video tapes) than moving to Japan to learn and bring some very genuine skills back home.

There is something truly wonderful about the Daitokai. Thanks to the study of Daito-Ryu, I have met outstanding people from many different places in Europe and elsewhere, every seminar is also an opportunity to get new friends and this would have never been possible without Certa Sensei's contribution.

In other words, I feel very happy to have the possibility to learn such a wonderful martial arts as Daito-Ryu under the supervision of a genuine teacher instead of wasting time with one of the numerous made up jujutsu styles available today.

Thanks for the book, and many thanks to my friend and Keikopartner Giacomo for his more than valuable contribution on this web site.

Good Keiko to everybody.

john_lord_b3
5th March 2007, 07:30
As I said, if you like Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and Ono-ha Itto-ryu and you have the opportunity, you may as well come to us or go to Kondo Sensei or to Okabayashi Sensei. My quest wasn't ever and still is not to prove we are the only one, but just to make even the most critic of Kondo's followers that we're here and are every bit as legitimate as he is.


Yup, after years of reading your post I must agree with this too, Giacomo.



Are you interested mostly in Aiki? Go practice with the Roppokai, Kodokai or Sagawa dojo... In complex blocks? Go to the Takumakai. If you're interested in the complete art of Daito-ryu AikiBUDO, come to us. If you're interested only in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, without weapons and Ono-ha, go to the Menkyo Kaiden Kondo Katsuyuki.


Thank you for the information!



I don't believe talking now and again on sterile succession issues that frankly most people don't understand/want to understand/care will help developing the art, regardless of WHICH association teaches it.

I used to do like that, but 5 more years have passed, and I myself don't care anymore. We are what we wrote (and showed more than well) on the book, my quest now is only to have people learn genuine Daito-ryu, of any REAL association, instead of going to complete frauds as there are too many.

By all means, simply enjoy the book for what it is, the best (at the moment) source for mainline Daito-ryu, THE PRACTICED ART, not the POLITICS, with material from the Soke, photos, and big backgrounds of our teachers.

Good reading and best regards, I hope to meet and practice with some of you on tatami when we'll come to the U.s.


Giacomo Merello

I must say, I really enjoy reading your post. I hope there will be no more mutual hostility between all factions of Daito-ryu in the future. Good luck and have fun training to all.

judasith
5th March 2007, 09:15
I hope so too... AND that actually WAS the purpose of the book not pouring yet more fuel on the topic. We thought best to talk about the art then go on with politics.

Best regards, and I really hope to be able to see some of you in one of our upcoming seminars in the US!

Giacomo

morpheus
5th March 2007, 13:40
Giacomo,

I look forward to training with you all whenyou make it to the US. Please keep us informed as to when this will happen.

thanks
Jeff

kuoshu
8th March 2007, 15:55
If this book discusses anything prior to Sokaku Takeda then it is simply a work of fiction.
People, please.
It is exactly the same situation as the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.
There was no "Daito Ryu" until Sokaku Takeda made it up in the 1890s.
Both Ninjutsu and Aikijujutsu are modern gendai arts that were made up by a talented and good fighter. But the problem is that they both gave it a false history.

Nathan Scott
9th March 2007, 04:35
If this book discusses anything prior to Sokaku Takeda then it is simply a work of fiction.

Thanks for the valuable insight. You might take a little more time to read some of the other threads in this forum before posting next time.

Kendoguy9
9th March 2007, 05:13
Dear Paul,

I'm curious what part of Daito-ryu history that Takeda Sokaku sensei gave us is false? The lineage he offers is his own family lineage. While I think it is true he included Takeda Shingen, who was a many-great-uncle and not a many-great-grandfather in the lineage, clearly trying to add some prestige, there is no false history that I know of. The problem I see with Daito-ryu isn't a false history, it is holes in the history.

Peace,

john_lord_b3
9th March 2007, 05:19
If this book discusses anything prior to Sokaku Takeda then it is simply a work of fiction.
People, please.
It is exactly the same situation as the Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.
There was no "Daito Ryu" until Sokaku Takeda made it up in the 1890s.
Both Ninjutsu and Aikijujutsu are modern gendai arts that were made up by a talented and good fighter. But the problem is that they both gave it a false history.

(joking mode on)

Yes, that is one very interesting thought, and should be a good discussion topic for years to come (read as "we shall see no end of it") :)

I think it has something to do with the culture where they grew up? Let's imagine this imaginary conversation between Takeda sensei and a police chief.

TAKEDA: "You and your men should train with me. I have created a new fighting style based on my experience fighting with thugs and construction workers.

POLICE CHIEF: "Naah. We'd rather train with a Soke with a high reputation".

That should give a good idea for Takeda sensei to construct a long and illustrious lineage to the art which he "revived".

Or this imaginary conversation between Takamatsu sensei and a burly young Judoka.

JUDOKA: "You carry a stick, are you a fish peddler"?

TAKAMATSU: "No, this is my practice stick, a Rokushaku Bojutsu. I practice Kukishin-ryu, a Koryu".

JUDOKA: "Isn't Koryu stuff a bit old-fashioned these days? All the weapons are obsolete. I'd rather study something useful, like Judo, and that new import from Ryukyu, that Kenpo thing which Kano sensei spoke so highly about.."

TAKAMATSU: "If you are interested in unarmed fighting, I also teach a Jujutsu art, called Takagi Yoshin-ryu".

JUDOKA: "Hah, that is a waste of time. Kodokan Judo is the best Jujutsu in all Japan. We defeated all other Jujutsu schools, why should I bother training in an ancient, finished tradition?"

And that should give a good idea for Takamatsu sensei to focus on different, more interesting aspect on his ancestral arts... :)

Off course, it's all just speculation, and my imagination running wild. I must ask the doctor to give me another shot of that tranquilizer drug. Ouch!

(lying down unconscious on the ground with a tranquilizer dart embedded on my butt).. :D :D :D

(joking mode off)

judasith
9th March 2007, 16:08
In any case, regardless of what any of you might think, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is officially recognized by the Nihon Kobudo association in Japan, while ninjutsu it is my understanding is not.

Other than that (which sounded a little "lawyerish"), it is true indeed, in my opinion as practitioner of the mainline art and student of its history, that Takeda Sokaku Sensei certainly remolded the art also with his own techniques, experiences and knowledge. However he certainly used for the most part a great deal of material which was handed in his family. This is VERY different from the reorganization of jujutsu made by Jigoro Kano, for instance.

Kano Sensei in remaking the old tried to make something new and completely different, giving birth to a true "gendai budo".

Takeda Sensei just further developed and modified (and taught) a koryu art giving birth to a.... koryu art. Everything in Daito-ryu is koryu bujutsu (aside from some of Ellis Amdur's exotic thoughts on the matter).

This is the difference between a gendai budo like Judo and a much older koryu bujutsu that was diffused in the Meiji era like Daito-ryu.

Yet there is still a difference in my opinion between Daito-ryu and other koryus like Takenouchi or Araki-ryu; it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance. AND that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu.

I always say, take a good judoka and put him against a Kiraku-ryu practitioner, or take a good kendoka and put him against a Katori Shinto-ryu practitioner, I *do* have some doubts on the outcome.

Martial arts, even VERY OLD ones, should have as first purpose to be effective, otherwise is much better to spend your time in the range with a .45 ;)

Regards,

Giacomo

Dan Harden
10th March 2007, 13:25
Giacomo

First up, I for one, enjoyed the book. I laud the attempt. While there were many errors in it I looked past them and tried to view the whole of it to get a glimpse of the intent. I found Tokimune's take on Aiki and In-yo interesting.
I'm not interested in who did what to whom when and where. Airing dirty laundry on a forum is never wise, and never turns out well..

As for Daito ryu and Koryu. Your inference is that it more or less changed with Takeda, but more or less is still koryu -due to feel and intent (not the defining factor BTW). While that alone is a defining error that can be detremental to your argument on at least two different fronts-lets leave that be.
The next part is confusing in that you infer that although it wasn't changed like Judo-(implying superiority over it) you go on to suggest that Judoka would win over koryu jujutsu! And then Kendo would win over TSKSR. I take it that your mini-rant about koryu adepts being dead in feel implies that your branch of DR is more alive and viable then us poor Koryu chaps. I'd suggest you be a bit more careful in what you say. You may meet someone face to face who happens to be willing to show you how alive their practice is.

FWIW I see this
You opened with a validaton that DR is recognized as Koryu by the Nihon Kobudo association in Japan then go on to valid it as such.
Then crap all over other Koryu and their adepts by inference for BEING Koryu and infer they are inferior to both gendai and Daito ryu to boot!

Here's a tip
Don't sh!t were you eat. It draws flies, leaves everything and everyone around you with a foul oder. And Giacomo, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those who may eitherwise support you.
In one post you managed to alienate everyone outside your group.
a. It's not true
b. It's not wise
c. It's paints you into a corner with all against you.

For an art that prides itself on "Not leaving any openings" you just threw open the barn door and offered your back!
Surely you can do better.

Dan

DDATFUS
10th March 2007, 17:57
Yet there is still a difference in my opinion between Daito-ryu and other koryus like Takenouchi or Araki-ryu; it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance.


Giacomo,
It is very, very dangerous to judge any art by what you see in the Nihon Kobudo series. The way that you do your techniques in front of the camera and the way that you practice them with your senior students at the dojo are two entirely different ballgames. I recently watched the Nihon Kobudo video of a particular koryu kenjutsu, and then watched members of that ryu practicing the techniques. On the video, the sword movements were highly stylized, formal, and lacked all life. It almost put me to sleep. But when I saw them done in practice, they were aggressive, fierce, and loaded with intent. The difference was breathtaking.

I find it very interesting that you mention Takeuchi Ryu and Araki Ryu as examples of the koryu jujutsu that have lost their heart. In your post you mention Ellis Amdur; have you read any of the articles he has written on the Araki Ryu that he practices? He describes freestyle training with bokken in which the blows were pulled at only the last second, and all-out fights with shinai and no bogu (http://koryu.com/library/eamdur2.html). If your Daito Ryu branch practices with any more "substance" than this, you must have crippling injuries on a fairly regular basis.



I always say, take a good judoka and put him against a Kiraku-ryu practitioner, or take a good kendoka and put him against a Katori Shinto-ryu practitioner, I *do* have some doubts on the outcome.

Well, once again that depends on a lot of things-- I've seen videos of Katori guys that left me extremely impressed, particularly with regards to intent. I don't know about Kiraku Ryu, but once again, it depends on a lot of things, including how the koryu guys train and what the "rules" of the engagement are. Judo might be an extremely effective art, but my limited experience with it suggests that the average judoka does not expect the guy that he is pinning to stab him in the ribs in lieu of trying to bridge out of the pin. There are some koryu that seem much more concerned with that possibility.



Martial arts, even VERY OLD ones, should have as first purpose to be effective, otherwise is much better to spend your time in the range with a .45 ;)


That a .45 is a more effective means of self-defense than hand-to-hand (at least in a lot of circumstances) goes without saying. Actually, the way you word your post makes it sound as if you think that Daito Ryu is a more effective way of self-defense than a .45. Hmmm. Do you actually think that? Because any time you're in the States, you're more than welcome to test Aiki against a 1911. Just give me a call.

PictonMA
11th March 2007, 15:24
Altho I don't train in Daito Ryu (or anyone Koryu for that matter) I find these threads very informative and interesting. Without derailing this thread too much I have a question about:


Giacomo,
It is very, very dangerous to judge any art by what you see in the Nihon Kobudo series. The way that you do your techniques in front of the camera and the way that you practice them with your senior students at the dojo are two entirely different ballgames.

Why is that?

In my humble opinion , the way you train is the way you train and should be the way you perform and the way you would expect to respond in a crisis situation.

Anyone familiar with the cliche that we don't rise to our expectations but fall back on our training?

What benefit is there in practicing one way and performing another?

Dan Harden
11th March 2007, 16:13
Jason
It's both simple and complex. Suffice to say that it is rather a given that Ko ryu routinely don't show real application of their training in public. They will show certain things here and there at the perogative of a teacher, but by and large it remains very dicey to judge. Targets , cuts, timing, and intent may not be, what you are given-to see. Sometimes it is hilarious what experienced men think of an arts methods-only to find that ain't what was going on anyway. So if experienced men can be confused what about a neophyte?
Cheers
Dan

Kendoguy9
11th March 2007, 18:59
Giacomo,

You wrote:

"save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance. AND that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu."

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post.

Does Mr. Kato, Mr. Certa and the rest your organization feel this way? In the past you have said:

"In any case, even if Takeda Soke DID award him the menkyo, he did it for political reasons, because Kondo Sensei was richer and better connected than our teachers"

Since Tokimune sensei wanted to spread Daito-ryu, clearly he made a good choice in Kondo sensei. It would have been very hard to join the koryu organizations and spread the art if he sent Mr. Kato, to the various embu, with such a poor attitude towards other ryu.

Steve Delaney
12th March 2007, 02:46
Yet there is still a difference in my opinion between Daito-ryu and other koryus like Takenouchi or Araki-ryu; it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance. AND that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu.



*best Bugs Bunny Voice*

He don't know us vewwy well do he?!?

judasith
12th March 2007, 08:47
Ok ok guys, here's something *must* have been misunderstood... I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still, maybe it's my english, sorry if someone felt offended by it.

It wasn't a "rant" of any kind!

Only two points:

1) Daito-ryu is a Koryu, by its history, by its official recognition in the official institutes of koryu bujutsu in Japan, by its principles, by its practice. Full Stop. Then again certainly Takeda Sokaku changed the previous art, buy that doesn't make it a gendai budo like Judo, since he didn't apply ANY of the principles of modern arts.

2) Gendai Budo, like Judo or Kendo are, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, more effective than most "koryu" arts, of course with their pros and cons. I made examples of this of that art but only to give an idea of what I thought, not as a "rant" of anyone's art.

3) In the end it's the man that makes his art good, and not viceversa; and I DO KNOW you can't judge anything by watching videos. These are two already agreeable common places (on which I do agree) I didn't think necessary to explain more.

Sorry if some of you felt offended it wasn't AT ALL my intent!

Guys, you should really be a little more at ease with yourselves and not take everything from a "legal standpoint"...!

DDATFUS
12th March 2007, 16:23
it seems to me, based on the superficial view of videos of these arts (the Nihon Kubudo series) and other koryu jujutsu that save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way, without heart and without the purpose to be effective as an ACTUAL self-defense system, they seem to me, as most koryu bujutsu seems to be, just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance.



and I DO KNOW you can't judge anything by watching videos.


I'm sure you can see how people might have misunderstood.


I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still


save from Daito-ryu most of the others are practiced in a very "historical", "cold" way.... just a repetitive practice of almost empty forms, without any real substance.

Once again you can probably see why people misunderstood-- it sounds like you are saying that Daito Ryu is superior to these arts. Apparently that was not your intention.



I never meant or implied that Daito-ryu is superior to anything or that other arts are superior to others still



that is probably one of the whys the gendai budos, while technically waay simpler, managed to surclass almost in everything koryu bujutsu.

See, I read that to say that gendai budo are superior to "almost everything koryu." Apparently that isn't what you meant. My mistake.



you should really be a little more at ease with yourselves and not take everything from a "legal standpoint"...!


I'm a bit confused-- how are we taking things from a "legal standpoint?" I'm just riled that you imply that the art that I study is practiced "without heart" and "just a repetitive practice of empty forms." This has nothing to do with anything legal.

judasith
12th March 2007, 17:05
Dan, why are you taking this so personal? I simply said, doing wrong to make citations of possible examples, that, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, despite ancient origins and "koryu snobbery" probably some koryus are less good as PERSONAL DEFENSE than most gendai budos.

That means, it is not necessarily true that a koryu, simply because it's OLD also means it's better than a gendai, it depends on how it is still practiced today that counts.
For Daito-ryu I can say it is still like this, I can't sincerely say the same for other koryus, at least from the VERY SUPERFICIAL things I saw on videos on various demonstrations.

That said, I chose wrongly the names of the arts, just said the first I had in mind as an example, I'm certain that whatever you do practice you practice with heart and is good and substantial as a self-defense practice.

DDATFUS
12th March 2007, 19:14
Dan, why are you taking this so personal?

Giacoma, I'm not entirely certain if you're mean this as a message to Dan or to me and since I'm the one whose post you seem to be following, I'm guessing you just got the two similar names confused.

Anyway, I'm not really taking this personally (I promise-- no foam at the mouth at all as I type this). My apologies if I come across that way. You have a right to your opinion-- I just happen to think that your opinion is dead wrong and based on, shall we say, an imperfect knowledge of the facts. Then again, that's just my opinion-- which is worth exactly what you are paying for it.

I would agree with you that some koryu ARE worse for personal defense than some gendai budo. But in your original post, you seem to strongly suggest that gendai is almost always better than koryu, and you base your opinion on what I consider to be very shaky reasoning. I think you are correct when you say that what matters the most is how the art is practiced today-- I just think that you are in error when you assume that most koryu are "just going through the motions." I'm just trying to debate your point of view based on what I have read and on the little that I have seen first-hand.

wagnerphysed
13th March 2007, 00:45
No offense Gioccamo, but your a little confused with Gendai and Koryu. Arts aside, the mere fact that you bring up the effectiveness of the .45 shows a lack of in depth study of the stopping power of ballistics. Sometime ago the argument between the stopping power of the .45 and the 9mm was all the rage with hand-gunners. The short reply is that a gentleman, whose name escapes me at the moment, did an in depth study of the fatality of actual shootings occurring with both calibers and found that neither had a decided edge over the other. In fact, there were some amazing incidents were .45 caliber bullets were stopped by the large back muscles and a tense rib cage (latisimus dorsi and intercostals) and some hard heads seemed to cause bullets to ride the scalp without ever penetrating the bone (probably based on the angle of entry). Anyway, most people with handguns these days would argue in favor of the 40 Smith and Wesson over both of these venerable rounds. So, the .45 is really Koryu. Still effective in the right hands, but definitely Koryu.

oh yeah! I call BS on your supposition and response to it after the fallout! Sounds like back pedaling to me.

Raff
13th March 2007, 10:55
I would agree with you that some koryu ARE worse for personal defense than some gendai budo. But in your original post, you seem to strongly suggest that gendai is almost always better than koryu, and you base your opinion on what I consider to be very shaky reasoning. I think you are correct when you say that what matters the most is how the art is practiced today-- I just think that you are in error when you assume that most koryu are "just going through the motions." I'm just trying to debate your point of view based on what I have read and on the little that I have seen first-hand.


I think that the progression in Gendai Budos is much faster than in Koryu Bujutsu. If we take two complete beginners, one starting Judo, the second one the Koryu of your choice, and if we compare their level after a couple of years, not in actual figthing, but in a fight with rules and a referee, let's say a kind of competition, the Gendai guy would certainly "defeat" the koryu one.

We know that the Kodokan Judo defeated most of the top Jujutsu schools at the end of the 19th century, and to be totally honnest, I sincerely think that today, the best Judo players would still defeat any old school Jujutsu guy during a competition with precise rules.

This does not mean that Gendai is superior to Koryu, it simply means that as far as we are talking about sport and competition, a guy specifically trained and prepared for a competition has an enormous advantage, and the only way to compare skills safely is going through some kind of competition, you have no choice.

Everybody talks about self defense those days, but once again beeing able to deal with a "real" situation is extremely complicated and beeing a martial artist, Gendai or Koryu, does not automatically imply that you will get out of the situation unharmed and without damages. Sad to say but the black belt you are wearing comfortably in your Dojo does not protect you outside.

Dan Harden
13th March 2007, 12:39
Interesting point
Things do benefit from testing. And I agree that training for specific competitions like the Judo guys do is an advantage. But why did you stop there?
How about having the Judo guys train for venue that Koryu is designed for?
Armed conflict.
You also placed kory practiioners facing the best judoka
So what if we have the average judo-joe facing the best swordsman/jujutsuka in Koryu with weapons and armor and see who walks away... :rolleyes: These Discussions are silly.
The point is that there are many viable lessons in koryu.. All of which can be used in rolling and banging. You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools. On another level I play with BJJ, MMA and Judo men using Koryu jujutsu and do just fine thanks.
Who says Budo people don't presume.
Dan

Raff
13th March 2007, 19:36
You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools.


I do not remember writing that Koryu men don't play. I just said that it takes more time to reach a good level in Koryu than in Gendai. I'm fascinated in Koryu generally speaking even though I started with Gendai. I'm a Koryu guy and I do play a lot as well. As for following MMA, many watch and enjoy the show, but very few have the skills to compete and become if not a champion at least a decent fighter.




On another level I play with BJJ, MMA and Judo men using Koryu jujutsu and do just fine thanks.

Congratulations :)

john_lord_b3
14th March 2007, 06:52
Interesting point
Things do benefit from testing. And I agree that training for specific competitions like the Judo guys do is an advantage. .... You are greatly mistaken in thinking men in Koryu don't play. In fact many I know follow Pride and UFC, and go to local fight clubs and BJJ schools.

Most Jujutsu systems I learned are not exactly Koryu (a version of Hakko-ryu and a reconstructed syllabus of Takagi Yoshin-ryu to be exactly), and we don't have free sparring in the official syllabus. That's why my friends and myself play Judo and Sambo. Also, I practice Wado-ryu, and we have both Sport Karate and Koryu Jujutsu-based self-defense Katas in it. We try to balance between archaic re-enactment of combat and modern training methods to improve ma-ai, timing and balance. The result is a realization that we are massively incompetent in sport Budo, and we need more training, and more fitness training, and that we don't have time to become full-time athletes.

So, we get our butts kicked when we try out sparring with sparring experts, that's a fact, but then it shows that we have enough determination and willingness to improve ourselves, so much that we came to them to play their game, that means we respect gendai, while most sports martial artists I know mostly look down with unbridled contempt upon any martial art with no sparring.. :)

john_lord_b3
14th March 2007, 07:05
That means, it is not necessarily true that a koryu, simply because it's OLD also means it's better than a gendai, it depends on how it is still practiced today that counts..

I think gendai artists are much better than Koryu artists if the Koryuids try to play the game of gendaids :) (another half-assed attempt to mangle the Anglo-Japonica language).


I'm certain that whatever you do practice you practice with heart and is good and substantial as a self-defense practice.

Here you and I differs a bit, Giacomo. I don't practice Budo for the self-defense value. I practice them to fulfill my spare time and to improve myself, both mentally, physically and spiritually. I don't care whether I can defeat Mike Tyson or not using my Budo. I don't care whether I can defeat Royce Gracie or not using my Budo. Rather, I care about improve my frail physical conditions. Hakko-ryu and (non-sport) Wado-ryu does wonders because it has such a fine natural progressions systems for fine-tuning our physical condition. I am sure Daito-ryu does wonders as well.

As for self-defense, If I am confronting 8 thugs who carries 16" machetes, I'd rather run than try to use my Budo skills. I am not Takeda Sokaku, I am Ben Haryo, I don't have that Samurai do-or-die attitude, I have the attitude of a statistician (1 vs 8 = disaster) ;)

PS: Giacomo, English language is very difficult, especially for nonverbal communications such as this. Sometimes people misunderstood our true intentions. That's the unfortunate fate for all of us whose English is not a first language.

Raff
14th March 2007, 09:11
Excellent post Ben, I totally agree with you.

john_lord_b3
16th March 2007, 05:47
Dear Raphael san, thank you for agreeing with me.

Raff
16th March 2007, 16:00
Dear Ben San,

This is a pleasure to read your posts and a privilege to be a fellow member of this community.

Take care.

Steve Delaney
16th March 2007, 20:51
Gentlemen, kindly stay on the topic of the thread.

Thank you.

johan smits
19th March 2007, 09:22
"I am not Takeda Sokaku, I am Ben Haryo,"


Ben, this is the best line I have read in quite a while.



There is a question in general:

Why do we not applaud a serious and well intentioned feat like publishing a book on a very interesting subject?

And then instead of bickering on someone who does, publish a book yourself on this subject without all those faults you find. But we can't can we?

best,

Johan Smits

Steve Delaney
19th March 2007, 12:31
"I am not Takeda Sokaku, I am Ben Haryo,"


Ben, this is the best line I have read in quite a while.



There is a question in general:

Why do we not applaud a serious and well intentioned feat like publishing a book on a very interesting subject?

And then instead of bickering on someone who does, publish a book yourself on this subject without all those faults you find. But we can't can we?

best,

Johan Smits

Do a search and see what it's all about Johan. There's a significant backstory.

Cheers,

johan smits
19th March 2007, 13:53
Hi Steve,

I know there is a backstory - but then again - why not applaud a serious and well intentioned undertaking despite it's flaws?
Books are not to be believed but to be subjected to enquiry, this should be done with the intention to learn from them, not with the intention to burn it's author.

best,

Johan Smits

DDATFUS
19th March 2007, 15:25
I know there is a backstory - but then again - why not applaud a serious and well intentioned undertaking despite it's flaws?

If I remember correctly, the posts at the beginning of this thread, before things got off-track, all said things like "interesting book, very good first effort, it's fascinating to see so many documents published, but it also has some flaws that need to be taken care of."

As someone who likes to expand his private martial arts library, I was very happy to read the evaluations of Nathan and others. This book is rather expensive, and based on Nathan's evaluation, it is not something that my library can't do without at this time. That doesn't make it a bad book, just something that isn't a priority for me. If people only posted glowing reviews, giving out "A's for effort," and not mentioning the flaws that they found, it would be hard for people like me to decide whether or not we can justify the expenditure.

johan smits
19th March 2007, 15:36
David,

You are correct and I agree with most that you write here. Point is it is very difficult to write reviews (I am not trying to belittle those who did in this thread!).
Maybe I am getting old, feeble and kindhearted but I felt the author was getting a lot of negative comments - as if it is so easy, doing research and publishing.

Best to you all,

Johan Smits

wagnerphysed
24th March 2007, 12:19
Maybe I am getting old, feeble and kindhearted but I felt the author was getting a lot of negative comments - as if it is so easy, doing research and publishing.

I'm getting old as well. However, if a person is willing to share their opinions as well as write them down (not just in a book, but in an active forum) then people will respond and it won't always be positive. Yes, Giacommo is taking some flak for his comments here on the forum and his lack of consistency (this revolves around past statements and how those statements are addressed in the book - but as you said, you are familiar with this) and research within the book he published. That's the way it goes when people make polarized statements.

Giacommo has split this thread into two groups, those who are knowledgeable of all that a koryu has to offer (this group doesn't just include koryu practitioners) and those who very clearly demonstrate their limited knowledge of the koryu (everything about it, including training methodologies and transmission of skill and knowledge) with every additional statement they post. For some of us, it's enough to sit back contently and allow these individuals to ramble on in the forum and in published text, knowing that they couldn't hit the ground with an 8 pound shot put no matter how hard they were to throw it (to be read, they don't know what they are talking about). For some of us , we feel the need to dispel the nonsense they are posting or at least provide them with a modicum of the information they are missing.

Then there are those well meaning individuals who feel the need to make everyone feel good, help everyone to get along, or worse try to make peace by ignoring the very fabric of the issue at heart. Therapy for codependency may be the best prescription for these individuals who can't seem to tolerate conflict in any form (and the fact that these people practice martial arts is a wholly different mystery), but I'm not a therapist so I can't really say with any degree of authority.

Bottom line, if you don't like the opinions you are hearing, then don't share yours. :smash:

Raff
26th March 2007, 15:59
Mr Wagner,


It really seems to me that you are looking anxiously for any kind or track of errors in wathever we write or publish. But I do not see any consistency in your comments either. Just a deliberate will to criticize, I'm sorry if I do break any rule in this forum, but I think that your behavior is truly pathetic.

Please note that I'm only expressing a very personal opinion.

Good keiko to everybody. :)

Steve Delaney
27th March 2007, 04:43
Mr Wagner,


It really seems to me that you are looking anxiously for any kind or track of errors in wathever we write or publish. But I do not see any consistency in your comments either. Just a deliberate will to criticize, I'm sorry if I do break any rule in this forum, but I think that your behavior is truly pathetic.

Please note that I'm only expressing a very personal opinion.

Good keiko to everybody. :)

Sir, if you aren't going to provide anything useful related to the topic at hand, kindly refrain from posting.

johan smits
27th March 2007, 09:16
"Then there are those well meaning individuals who feel the need to make everyone feel good, help everyone to get along, or worse try to make peace by ignoring the very fabric of the issue at heart. Therapy for codependency may be the best prescription for these individuals who can't seem to tolerate conflict in any form (and the fact that these people practice martial arts is a wholly different mystery), but I'm not a therapist so I can't really say with any degree of authority. "

I really can't stand people like that.

On the other hand it is not so strange that people who spend much of their lives in an environment where they are encouraged to embrace a sectarian worldview find it very difficult to see things in a broader perspective.
That's me, older and a bit more kind than I used to be.
Much nicer - really.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Raff
27th March 2007, 12:17
Sir, if you aren't going to provide anything useful related to the topic at hand, kindly refrain from posting.


Then kindly apply your nice piece of advice for yourself as well as I'm still looking for something interesting to read from your side, Sir.

Steve Delaney
28th March 2007, 04:22
I really can't stand people like that.

On the other hand it is not so strange that people who spend much of their lives in an environment where they are encouraged to embrace a sectarian worldview find it very difficult to see things in a broader perspective.
That's me, older and a bit more kind than I used to be.
Much nicer - really.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Well Johan,

It's not really a sectarian world view.

Let's take a simplistic view on this, at the same time not insulting anyone's intelligence.

Two singers. They look similar, sound similar. On occaisions they dress similar, but one isn't what he seems.

http://static.flickr.com/55/117841057_ea69b0252b_m.jpg

http://www.rickvirga.com/images/rick-satin_sm.jpg


Which one is the real King?

Now cheeseburgers aside, let's get back on track with Daito-ryu.

1. The prior headmaster, Takeda Tokimune's last dying wishes and will were observed and witnessed by several well respected budo scholars and practitioners and carried out by his legal representative (His second daughter).

2. One of the telling facts that Takeda Tokimune singled Mr. Kondo out was the fact that he performed the main demonstration at the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai Nihon Budokan Kobudo embutaikai in front of Takeda Tokimune. This is basically advertising the fact to other members of the NKK that "this is the person I am grooming for succession". It's a common practice seen at embu. (This was when Mr. Kondo was )

3. Another fact, Mr. Kato and Mr. Arisawa (deceased) and others resigned from the Daitokan dojo collectively, and formed a "seishinkai" two whole years before Takeda Tokimune's passing. (Not a great example of loyalty there to be honest.) Their letters of resignation are still on record. With this in mind, the individuals who resigned haven't been members of Daito-ryu for over

4. The practitioners who did not resign from the Daitokan dojo, as well as other members from different dojo nominated Mr. Kondo as Hombu-cho and Somu-cho of Daito-ryu.

5. Whether you like it or not, Mr. Kondo has both Kyoju Dairi and Menkyo Kaiden. This has been attested by many. Mr. Kato only recieved 5th dan and some form of mokuroku.

So who's the real Elvis?

johan smits
28th March 2007, 07:26
Hi Steve,

What can I say, your ARE a teacher. I really liked your last post. To be quite honest my first impression was your example was about travestites. Shame on me but..."Two singers. They look similar, sound similar. On occaisions they dress similar, but one isn't what he seems." .. until I saw the pictures then the coin dropped.

I do not doubt a word you write about Daito-ryu and you explain it very well. Anyone remotely interested in Daito-ryu will know what you write is correct.\

It is just this - when I read a book I take it for what it is - the view of it's author on a subject. Or the accumulation of facts or knowledge by that author. Period. That is why I do not get my knickers twisted (trying for my hakama to twirl instead) when someone publishes a book in which they give a different view on a subject than mine.

Some years ago we had a huge and heated discussion here on the forum on Katori Shinto-ryu in which Sugino sensei with the wispy beard and the people who studied his line were treated in a non to friendly way by followers of the "true faith".
They were bad, naughty, not the real thing, etc. Now the same people I knew than and trained with than are now members of the Katori Shinto-ryu and train under Otake sensei. And you know what? Word is they aren't half bad either in what they do.
So a lot of bad blood, heated discussion, and ugly words were - looking back - a lot of spend energy without a positive outcome.

And isn't that what we martial artists are about? A positive outcome with a minimum of effort, whether it is by means of an elegant twirl of the wrist or by means of a boot in the teeth. Have to keep everybody happy.

But as you said, back to Daito-ryu, I am however going to pm you and shamelessly am going to ask for a lot of information on other subjects.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Raff
28th March 2007, 07:41
Two singers. They look similar, sound similar. On occaisions they dress similar, but one isn't what he seems.

Sorry, Mr Kondo does certainly dress a much more expensive Keikogi.



5. Whether you like it or not, Mr. Kondo has both Kyoju Dairi and Menkyo Kaiden. This has been attested by many. Mr. Kato only recieved 5th dan and some form of mokuroku.


We have read this thousand of times and to be honnest, nothing more. This is your only argument: Mr Kondo has a Menkyo Kaiden so what he says, does, feels should be considered as the Holy Bible.

I really like the "Mr Kato only received 5th Dan", would you mind telling me which rank you have reached so far? Would you tell me how many years you have spent on the mat or how many students you have under your brilliant technical supervision? How many years have you practiced Daito-Ryu? Have you only practiced Daito-Ryu once in your life? What makes you feel that you have the authority or the knowledge to decide who does the "real ultimate Daito-Ryu"? Do you feel that despite his various titles Mr Kondo can be compared technically and realistically speaking to Sokaku Takeda? Sokaku Takeda was the best Bujutsuka of his time, can we tell the same about Mr Kondo? Does the whole Budoworld come to the Shimbukan to train and learn from him?

By the way, did you take the time to read the book a couple of times? Have you ever participated to one of our seminars around Europe? If you take the liberty to judge people who have spent more time on the mat than you have spent living your own life, you must be a phenomenom!!!

I still do not understand why, non or occasional practioners of Daito-Ryu, are posting on a thread about a book written by one of the very few Westerners who really studied Daito-Ryu, when they obviously know nothing about it.

johan smits
28th March 2007, 07:59
"I still do not understand why, non or occasional practioners of Daito-Ryu, are posting on a thread about a book written by one of the very few Westerners who really studied Daito-Ryu, when they obviously know nothing about it."


Dear Raphael,

This probably has got to do with the fact that this is a discussion board.
As soon as an author publishes a book he or she get's involved in a relation so to speak with the readers of the book. Whether you like it or not that is what happens. That is what books are about.

Your question does puzzle me by the way. The book is written for a larger audience and not just Daito-ryu practitioners is it not? So I think it is not strange that people who do not practice the ryu discuss it.
Unless you mean when you don't train in it, you know nothing about it and cannot and should not discuss it (as in sectarian world view, we are the best, all the others stink and should shut up).

But the last is not the case I quess.

best regards,

Johan Smits

Raff
28th March 2007, 09:34
Your question does puzzle me by the way. The book is written for a larger audience and not just Daito-ryu practitioners is it not? So I think it is not strange that people who do not practice the ryu discuss it.
Unless you mean when you don't train in it, you know nothing about it and cannot and should not discuss it (as in sectarian world view, we are the best, all the others stink and should shut up).

But the last is not the case I quess.

best regards,

Johan Smits

Dear Johan,

This is obviously not what I meant. All the others don't stink. Of course, this is a discussion board and everybody has to right to express him or herself. What I dislike is the deliberate will to criticize others simply because because they do not belong to the same group. Discussing about a Ryu you do not pratice is all right as far as I'm concerned, but discussing not having strong one sided, sectarian, opinions without even knowing the individuals involved.

Anyway, I would feel very uncomfortable criticizing a given group practicing Yoshin-Ryu or Shosho-Ryu for instance without having experienced their techniques first hand. But this is just me.

Naturally, anybody is welcome to read this book. I'm currently working on the french translation and I can tell you that many people can't wait to read it even though Daito-Ryu has not a very strong following in France.

I understand that you can not please everybody, I feel that we are another expression of the Art, not the black sheep some people want us to be.

johan smits
28th March 2007, 11:07
"I feel that we are another expression of the Art, not the black sheep some people want us to be."

Raphael, very well said - I especially like the 'another expression of the art'.
The French are very budo-minded and some of the best work on budo comes from them. I think the book in French can count on a large reading.

Long time ago I trained in a lot of things until I met a teacher who told me that you can also train in one thing and try to become very, very good at that. His advice fell on deaf ears for quite some years, only later did I realize how good that advice was. And today I am still trying to become.... you know what I mean.

I wish you well.

best,

Johan Smits

johan smits
28th March 2007, 11:34
I quess my some lines of my previous post will not make sense if I do not also say that although you cannot train in all the arts you can read about them.

That is why I applaud in general serious efforts to publish books on the arts.

Back to work,

best,

Johan Smits

Steve Delaney
28th March 2007, 16:21
Sorry, Mr Kondo does certainly dress a much more expensive Keikogi.

Funny, the last time I saw him demonstrate a few years ago at the Nihon Budokan, he was in a karategi and hakama. Yeesh, I guess he really broke the bank there.


We have read this thousand of times and to be honnest, nothing more. This is your only argument: Mr Kondo has a Menkyo Kaiden so what he says, does, feels should be considered as the Holy Bible.

Well considering he is hombu-cho and somu-cho, that makes him, for Daito-ryu head hon-cho!

Raff
29th March 2007, 15:52
Long time ago I trained in a lot of things until I met a teacher who told me that you can also train in one thing and try to become very, very good at that. His advice fell on deaf ears for quite some years, only later did I realize how good that advice was. And today I am still trying to become.... you know what I mean.

I wish you well.

best,

Johan Smits

Dear Johan

The same happened to me until I met my teacher, he really helped realize a lot of things.


Thank you fot your open mind, it is refreshing.

Take care.

Godfrey
4th July 2007, 20:56
I just got back (Monday) from attending a Summer Daito Ryu Intensive Course and International Seminar in Italy. We trained morning, afternoon and evening (Jujutsu, Kenjutsu and Oyo-waza) Although the training was hard, it was very refreshing to train with people so passionate about Daito Ryu. Certa Shihan, Roberto Bucci & students were extremely helpful and kind. They made me feel like I was part of a large family, and I was sadden to leave. This was truly an excellent experience, and I am looking forward to the next one.

Godfrey Knowles

judasith
9th July 2007, 15:03
Dear Godfrey,

I'm verry sorry we couldn't meet since I was unable to attend to this last seminar. I hope we can meet in the future either in the next winter Seminar (which will be held in Milan, a much nearer trip!) or in your Country if you'd ever organize something there.

I'm happy you enjoyed the practice, the Intensive Course is a very exacting experience!

Best regards,

Giacomo

Godfrey
9th July 2007, 18:46
Dear Godfrey,

I'm verry sorry we couldn't meet since I was unable to attend to this last seminar. I hope we can meet in the future either in the next winter Seminar (which will be held in Milan, a much nearer trip!) or in your Country if you'd ever organize something there.

I'm happy you enjoyed the practice, the Intensive Course is a very exacting experience!

Best regards,

Giacomo

Dear Giacomo,
I really enjoyed both the Intensive Course and International Seminar. I am planning to return next summer or organize something here. I learned a lot and realize I definitely have a lot to learn. Say hello to everyone for me (and let them that I am practicing). I hope to meet you.

Godfrey Knowles