Has anyone studied Krav Maga?

[Darren Yeow]

Hi I love all martial arts and see something to be gained from all of them, no matter how minute, or vice versa.

Recently, I came across a new term of Krav Maga, the official Isreali martial art, which has been derived from multiple MA, and is very effective for self defence (or indeeed offence), and has been taught to military around the world.

I tried searching for illustrated techniques on the net and in book stores but as yet, I've come up fruitless.

Has anyone done Krav Maga, and how is it as a combat system from your personal standing point?

Thanks, DY.

[shinbushi]

http://www.kravmaga.com/ . they have an interactive section.

[Jeff Cook]

One of my yudansha, J. Nicole McDargh, also holds a black belt in Krav Maga. You can reach her at jnmcdargh@hotmail.com. If you try to contact her and don't get a response, let me know.

I can tell you she was a hell of a fighter when I first met her. She's even more dominating now!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[samurai]

The book "Krav Maga: Defense Against Armed Attackers" is due out in Febuary. It is being printed in Israel and due to the political situation there, the book as delayed.
I have been told (from someone that has seen a proof text) that it is well worth waiting for. You can contact Frog Publishing for more updates.
Thanks
jeremy bays

[Joachim]

I haven't studied Krav Maga, but I have their videos. Their basic work looks alot like Muay Thai. They just add a very straigtfoward block for punches and knife attacks that one obviously wouldn't need in Thaiboxing.

[Benjamin Peters]

I tried searching for illustrated techniques on the net and in book stores but as yet, I've come up fruitless.

A little late I know Darren, but through another thread in the Aikido forum, I've been researching krav maga and have come up with the following links to online-videos:
http://mapage.noos.fr/philkm/video.htm
http://mapage.noos.fr/philkm/VIDEO2.htm
http://mapage.noos.fr/philkm/gif.htm
http://mapage.noos.fr/philkm/tech2.htm
http://kravmaga.com/interactive/index.html
http://images.radcity.net/5467/246996.mpg
http://kravmaga.com/Home/Talk_about_KM/talk_about_km.html

Hope it helps.

[BigJon]

I know this might piss some people off...but I went to a Krav Maga school and watched a few classes. I didn't see anything that I hadnt seen before. It looked like typical striking with jujutsu grappling.(term is used loosely)
I know someone will be upset at my evaluation, but well thats how it looked to me. And yes I have studied martial arts before going there...it was like trying to improve on a cookie recipe...it was all there, the sugar, the water, the chocolate, just in different doses and combinations.


I am sitting here waiting to be ripped in half verbally...:D :D


Jon Gillespie

[stanley neptune]

Big Jon

I agree with you whole heartedly. First let me say Krav Maga is probably very effective when taught by the right people. Israeli soldiers are legendary brave.

Secondly, and here comes the big but, Krav Maga in the U.S.A right now is being mass marketed in McDojos nationwide. Most "studios" see it as revenue enhancement. They add it as an extra class beyond their main curriculum, at an additional fee of course.

The school I checked out required that you purchase the official KM wrist wraps, t-shirts, and sweats. (The school's main art is Tae Kwon Do another favorite of the McDojo, mass marketeers.) Look at the advertisement in Black Belt Mag. There are new schools opening up weekly. "Over 10,000,000 Krav Maga served!"

When a MA becomes commercialized it becomes watered down. The brave freedom fighters of the Haganah (sp?) should be respected for their courageous defense of their homeland. But someone has latched on to one of their hand to hand combat systems and have peanut-buttered it across the USA faster than you can hum the Big Mac jingle.

Stanley Neptune

[BigJon]

I agree. I would never speak poorly of Israeli soldiers, and talk about combat proven....yes, they might know something about that.:)

I just saw nothing knew in the krav maga class that I watched. I love dthe ads in martial art publications with the pissed off lady in the wrist straps, it is funny! The school I went to is primarily a TKD svhool too. There are only so many ways to kick, and so many ways to punch, thats all.

Jon Gillepsie

[Arthur]

I studied some Krav Maga a little over ten years ago with a gentleman who had taught it to elite units in Israel. We studied in his parking lot. There were no wrist wraps, logos, sweats, trademarks or marketing then.

What we did was distinctly different from boxing, Muay Thai, Ju Jutsu or any other commercial martial art out there.

On the other hand, IMO it didn't resemble the stuff I saw in most of the clips listed above at all either. Some of the things I saw on those clips, would have surely gotten us "spoken too" in class had we done them.

Consequently, I'm starting to think its impossible to have much of a conversation about "Krav Maga" on the net, as it seems the definition of the term is in a bit of flux.

FWIW, a few months ago I came across a site called kapap.net (Kapap is the earlier term used for Krav Maga) which sounded a lot more in line with where my instructor was coming from.

Arthur

[stanley neptune]

In my mind the current Krav Maga proponents are promoting it like Tae Bo was mass marketed several years ago. Tae Bo plus!

For further proof I went to the Krav Maga website. I am from the Boston area so I am interested in schools in Massachusetts. One of the schools listed on the KM website can be found at www.eastcoastkarate.com.

Peruse this site and tell me if you agree. Although they don't mention the fact that they teach KM.

Arthur's training was probably the way it was meant to be taught originally, by a former Haganah or Mossad member. He is very lucky to be taught the unwatered down, or original version. Arthur experienced the Guinness of KM versus the Coors Light version being taught today.

Stanley Neptune

[Arthur]

Your in Massachusetts? Oh, small world. Me too. I live in Brighton. You should come by the school sometime and I can show you some of the differences between what I learned and what seems to be shown these days. Heck I can show you how the stuff relates to Soviet special forces stuff too (Systema is what I teach) if your interested.

At anyrate feel free to call about goinf gfor beer at the least. I like to meet my cyber-neighbors.

Arthur

[jellyman]

check out Nir Maman www.israelikrav.com

[mt2k]

Originally posted by Jon G.
I know this might piss some people off...but I went to a Krav Maga school and watched a few classes. I didn't see anything that I hadnt seen before. It looked like typical striking with jujutsu grappling.(term is used loosely)
I know someone will be upset at my evaluation, but well thats how it looked to me. And yes I have studied martial arts before going there...it was like trying to improve on a cookie recipe...it was all there, the sugar, the water, the chocolate, just in different doses and combinations.


I am sitting here waiting to be ripped in half verbally...:D :D


Jon Gillespie
Not from me. My Swedish Police friends have extensive training in the system. Both from and in Israel. I have worked with them, and I have seen all the tapes. And I am not impressed. Neither was Rex Applegate, btw. Your first impressions were the same as mine.
I figured that maybe the stuff actually taught in Israel was different, so I wrote to Eugene Sockett, who is a firearms instructor over there.
His response..S.O.S. (same old stuff)
As am martial art, it is more pratical than most. But it is still a martial art.
If you want to see the yang to this ying, order the second tape by Carl Cestari.
Matthew Temkin

[Benjamin Peters]

I recognize fully your qualifications in training and teaching. I understand that through your own knowledge you have assessed Krav Maga (either good or bad). Out of the interest of my own personal research, can anyone explain what they feel that Krav Maga lacks? As an illustration, a popularly seen technique of Krav Maga is provided: please post your thoughts on this technique or any others you may have seen in your view and illustrate why Krav Maga is bad or good. With all due respect here, but if Krav Maga (military form, law enforcement form or civilian form) is so bad, then why do certain special forces like the french GIGN and the Israeli army choose to adopt it? Other depts too [/url]like these (http://www.kravmaga.com/Home/Talk_about_KM/FAQ/Who_is/who_is.html) : Drug Enforcement Administration Arrest & Control Unit. Why would they use it if it were 'bad'.

http://www.gign.org/galleries/photos/g-images/krav/priseskrav.jpg

The link for the above picture is: [url]http://www.gign.org/galleries/photos/g-images/krav/priseskrav.jpg

[jellyman]

The problem with techniques in general (for me), is that there are too many "what if"'s attached. This is especially the case when the tech is shown as a series of stills. All kinds of questions such as relative speed of movement become an unknown. And of course one series of movements isn't going to tell you everything. Not knowing the philosophy of Krav, I can only interpret by contrasting with what I know.

Nevertheless, I'll pitch in my 2 cents:

1 - 2 rather than seeking to directly block the attacking limb, he cuts off the avenue of attack. That's a good thing, as it requires less precision. His stance is ballistic in a forward direction (not sure if that's really a good way of putting it), but that could simply be because he's doing what amounts to a high shoot. Because he is high, and on one foot though, he's vulnerable to lateral and forward imbalancing, but again, that's a 'what if': the KM practitioner may be well aware of this and have contingencies in place, I don't know.

2 - 3 the attacker had his left hand up, presumably for blocking. This phase seems to rely on that block not working, which seems optimistic. There may be a subtlety I am missing, of course. The wrapping motion of the defender's left arm is sound.

3 - 4 This is good movement, whole body against one arm, to a posture of stability.

4 - 5 Not entirely sure what causes the guy to let go, unless the idea is the cane is levered out of his grip using the bicep as the fulcrum? Or maybe the defender's right hand raps his knuckles too? To really get this one, I'd have to have it done to me. It doesn't seem to be going against the thumb, is all.

5 - 6 So how does the defender switch the club from his armpit to his right hand, catch the loose right hand of the attacker with his left hand, in order to apply the kote-gaeshi? This seems to be a complex movement that also relies on you doing 3 movements while your attacker does very little. Also, catching a wrist out of thin air is a rarity - I would tend to make contact with the arm closer to the trunk, and slide down to the wrist - a detail, whihc, if present in the technique, should be made apparent. Of course, since this is free info, perhaps it's just a case of caveat emptor.

Also, this motion seems to interrupt the forward momentum built up in 4-5. It would have made more sense to me to apply the wrist lock with the right hand, as that was travellling to the attacker's hand anyway.

As well, the kote-gaeshi itself seems flawed in that the hand is about as far from the defender's trunk as it is from the attackers, making it more reliant on superior strength.

Lastly, the attacker is frozen from frame 4. While it's reasonable to expect a blow to the head to rock someone away from it, I wouldn't expect him to not move afterwards. So this sequence seems unrealistic, or reliant on superior speed.

Perhaps it make more sense as a video clip.

I don't know how representative this is of Krav, nor do I take this as a general indication of how someone skilled in Krav would actually fight.

[mt2k]

Not a bad combo. But why punch when a chin jab/knee up or chop would be more effective?
And why waste time taking the weapon away? Just take him out and let the weapon fall where it may.

[Benjamin Peters]

:cool: Hi there, I guess we can critique choices in utilization of techniques (which is what I asked for BTW so it's no knock on your contributions guys) but from your first hand accounts from visiting the studios what can we distinguish from Krav Maga technique that is 'poor'? I've seen many strategies with different opinions - but I guess Krav like to do the disarm thingy (view here http://mapage.noos.fr/philkm/VIDEO2.htm) as a removal of threat. It comes from a (seemingly) very agressive striking basis. Reading from the net, the punch placed to the chin is utilised to stop forward momentum (can't reference where sorry...)

(Krav) looks weird to me, but I just can't seem to pinpoint 'what is wrong' as such. Please help. Here are a few more techniques for your review and comment. The techniques may look a little weird, but are they effective (ie the bicep dirarm)? Are we suffering from martial artist racisim?

Perhaps a better version of the previous technique is the stick defense as below.

http://www.krav-maga.net/images/karate_3.jpg
http://www.krav-maga.net/images/karate_2.jpg
http://www.krav-maga.net/images/karate_1.jpg

Again, as it has different styles (ie military, law enforcement and civilian), why would it be adopted by so many if it were not good or ineffective?

(Above pictures were linked by URL to http://www.krav-maga.net/karate.htm)

[mt2k]

Now that is more like it...except for the punching..at least IMHO.

My interest in K.M. stems that,

1)I am Jewish and a big fan of Israel.

2) I have studied WW2 combatives (along with many other systems) for over 30 years.

3)Some of Rex Applegate's instrucors went to Palistine after the war. In fact, the gent on page 51 in KILL OR GET KILLED later became a general in the I.D.F.

But the stuff I have seen suffers the same fate as many other martial arts...too many techniques. Not enough mental attitude.
It is also, at least IMHO, not possible to teach a bona fide combat system in a commercial setting.
Since we are not privy to what is actually being taught to Israeli Special Forces units, it is hard to say what hardcore KM really is.
Still..if the only pratical school in an area was teaching KM, I would recommend it.

Matt Temkin

[Benjamin Peters]

Good point re the mental attitude. I think in the Krav book that is available on Amazon, that the psychological aspect of starting and continuing a counter attack to an assault is discussed.

As for the mental attitude, it seems as though they are very much agressive in their striking techniques and the like (on the on-line videos). As for the 'real' Krav, I guess there ain't none - I suspect that Krav is different according to who it's taught to: Military (more tactics with guns and sub-machine guns, and knife?), Law Enforcement (less striking, some gun tactics), Civilian being the studio type which we see most of (common assault scenarios and counter attacks). Interesting point you raise.:beer:

[jellyman]

That was a better sequence. The disarm is still a bit fuzzy to me, but that seems to be a specialty for KM, so I'd probably have to have it done to me to understand it (that's just how I learn).

[BigJon]

I am Jewish and a big fan of Israel.


LOL! Well I hope so...:)

Jon Gillespie

[BigJon]

These are quicktime, so if you have binoculors-they're enjoyable!


http://www.kravmaga.com/interactive


Jon Gillespie

[ktuck]

Please allow me to jump in here and post my $0.02 worth. I studied Krav Maga for about six months at the Chinese Boxing Academy in San Francisco, CA and have read about it fairly extensively. My personal opinion is that KM is a very effective system of combatives. I enjoyed the training and found the techniques to be useful and direct. The studio where I studied had a minimum of BS and everyone seemed a lot more focused on training than posing.

However, KM is very clear that it is not a martial art. It doesn't claim to be one and comparing it to one is unfair, in my opinion. Krav Maga was originally designed to take someone with little training and make them combat effective in a short period of time (about six months). The basic techniques are direct, relatively easy to learn and combat proven. There are more advanced levels of training (which I have not done) that progress from police restraint-type stuff through special forces CQB, sentry neutralization and even assassination.

Nor do they make any claim to originality. Imi Lichtenfeld, who developed the system, swiped effective techniques from any martial art or sport or military training he could find. If KM looks like ...insert your favorite martial art or combative sport here..., that is probably because it draws, at least in part, from that system. This, in my opinion, is its strength. The techniques continue to be refined, and new techniques are added all the time.

If you want philosophy, look elsewhere. But if you want effective combatives, KM is a good option.

[mt2k]

Originally posted by Jon G.



LOL! Well I hope so...:)

Jon Gillespie
Do not laugh, my friend. There are many self hating/anti Israel Jews here in NYC.

[Bradenn]

There are self-haters here in England as well.
Y'mach shemeihem.

[kage110]

Hello all,

I thought I would throw my hat in the ring and let you all know of my very humble opinions!:p I know very little of Krav Maga other than I have come across a couple of books in my study of combat martial arts. Krav Maga is derived from a variety of sources so there are moves from many different MAs contained within the framework of KM. Also there are a limited number of ways in which a human can cause damage to anther human so it is not at all surprising that the same techniques crop up time after time.

I am not aware of the KM frenzy in the USA as we have, fortunately, managed to avoid this in Scotland, but the points that have been made about the dangers of watering down for commercial reasons are very well founded. Another thing to bear in mind, and again something we do not have to contend with so much in the UK, is the risk of legal repercussions for damaging someone in a class environment and the likelyhood that the harmed student will sue the instructor. If I was the instructor I would be damned sure to make all my moves safe!

KM is, as far as I know, a good system for turning soldiers into reasonably effective hand to hand fighters but it is not really about turning out a well rounded MAist who can mix it with other trained people. Remember, the military always rely on firearms and h2h is the really last resort. Also, if you think military h2h is the best there is your are sadly mistaken. The one thing military training does have in its favour is that the idea of instilling agression is fundamental to all training and there is no risk of the trainees sueing the trainer!

To critique the photos and video clips posted earlier: My main concern with them all is that there is so very little movement of the body below the waist an no closing of the distance between the attacker and the defender. Any student of the Takamatsu-den arts will know what I mean. The first series of photos shows the attacker making a very half-hearted attempt to smash the scull of the defender with a 2 foot bar - come on, my dead grandmother moves more agressively than that! - and if I was the defender I sure as hell would like to be out of the way (moving forwards and sideways) to ensure that even if my blocking move missed at least I would be out the of road. The follow up punch really lacked any intention or appearance of force and to top that, why would you try and 'finish' the attacker with a wrist lock (which is questionably demonstrated anyway) when you have just punched him in the throat/chin and could follow up much more effectively by taking the momentum of your reposte through him (if you catch my drift).

I can easliy go on in the same vein but I will return to my first point: there is no sense of dynamic movement shown here - from either the attacker or the defender - in the series of photos or in the video clips posted later, just a lot of stand up punching.

I would like to finsh by saying two things: 1) I think that what has been illustrated here is either not 'real' Krav Maga and has been produced by someone who has read a book or two and learnt the style from there or that it a a poorly performed version of the real thing. Either way, steer clear if you are really interested in effective combat technique. 2) It is very difficult to demonstrate dynamic techniques in a series of still shots (though I have seen a lot better demonstrations) so it might be unfair to tar all KM with the same brush so the only thing left is to go along to a training session, keep your eyes wide open and really watch what is going on and, last of all, keep you mind open and avoid the hype.

There, that's my lot!;)

Hugh Wallace

[Usagi]

Well, as you asked...

In my opinion, KM concentrates too much in using "the most efficient techniques", but uses then out of the related perspective.

A punch to the face is very efficient...everyone will agree (no one wants the take ukemi for a punch) :)

The big problem is IF YOU DON'T HAVE CONDITIONATED your fists, you will hurt your hand (badly) and your punch will not have enough power to knock your opponent down (but will make him get even more angry) .

The same for the "kick the groins".

Very easy to hit in a friend, but hard to acomplish in a fight (male body is always ready to protect the "jewels").

Eyes coghing (same as above, specially the nippon nukite type).

I have the magazine above (a french magazine special with tons of "how to" self defense techniques) and the worst thing for me in the KM techniques (and most of the other MA presented too)was that I didn't see the need for martial arts training to defend from those attacks :)

Visiting a KravMaga Studio in Rio my impression was that they do a great kalisthenics and that, if you are fit and has fighting spirit, KM you give you an extra edge.

To me Krav Maga is more a collection of techniques then a martial system.

Forgive me for being harsh; i am being utterly sincere in my present feelings towards this self defense method.

Maybe i just didn't have the chance to see Good Krav Maga

[Arthur]

Krav Maga is undergoing the same thing that happened to many martial arts... with popularity the question of "what is Krav Maga" becomes a big one. Is it what Imi invented and taught, or is it what is now popular and taught in the "majority" of Krav Maga schools.

I'm sure Jigoro Kano wouldn't recognize what's being taught in modern Judo schools and Azato wouldn't know what to make of rank tests, dogi and the like. Yet if you opened a Judo school that emphasized kata equally, spent time teachinig people how to punch and kick and doing other things Kano thought were important... the majority of Judo schools and lay people alike would tell you that what "you" were doing was not Judo.

So which is Judo... which is Krav Maga. I know when studied Krav Maga 12 years ago, we were specifically told NOT to pucnh someone in the face. We were then given a list of reasons why it wasn't a good idea. Yet if I walked up to someone whose trained from Krav Maga video tapes or been to Krav Maga "studio" and I told them that Krav Maga does not generally advocate punching someone in the face, they'd look at me like I was an idiot. Heck they can show me the magazine articles above, and video tapes, and seals with copyrights on them.

So whose right? It seems thename Krav Maga has come to mean something a little different than it did 10, 20 or 30 years ago. as a result you see people who are doing what use to be done, refering to their art by other names now. Krav magan, Kapap,etc. This is the same thing you see with other arts who've lost their original identity.

Some Karate people refer to their art as Tode or Uchinadi and you'll find Judo people who use the alternate pronunciation Yawara No Michi, all to make a statement, at least to those initiated, that what they do is older and less commercial.

So whether we are speaking of Karate, Judo, Krav Maga or any other art, until we can rely decide on the definition of the terms... the discussion won't bear much fruit.

Arthur
PS Usagi I thought there were some relly good points in what you said.

[BigJon]

Well, After reading many posts here...I agree with Arthur. The Krav Maga class I witnessed was in a TKD school. The "instructor" had a yellow belt in KM, bb in TKD. He wasnt even qualified to teach the material...but he was. Its becoming a case of quantity over quality, and im sure that the "real deal" KM guys don't like whats happening to the image of their art.

Jon Gillespie

[carly]

After six months of Krav Maga, he was feeling much more confident about his ability to defend himself.
The other day he met up with another acquaintance, a guy who used to do judo, and the two played around a little bit.
The Krav Maga student ended up feeling very diappointed - his techniques were very specific, and the judoka could easily counter whatever the Krav Maga student did - it was the difference between someone who had learned moves by numbers, and the judoka who had internalized all the principles and could respond to any situation fluidly and intuitively. Just an observtion.
Carly B.

[tmanifold]

Principles will win out over specific techniques everytime. For strictly SD purposes it is always best to have a few techniques backed up by solid principles and a superior mindset.

[mamboking]

To be fair, how long did the one guy do judo? I know after six months of judo I was not ready to use it to defend myself.

[Usagi]

Mamboking is right.

We cannot judge the "efficiency" of KM based on the results of a match between this two exponents (even if we had enough data).

A duel is not a "self defense" cenario (no element surprise, no commitment, no real intent,etc..)

And, after all, who among us didn't felt like BatMan or James Bond after the first two months (or untill our first "fight")?

In the beggining, we don't believe.

After feeling, we believe.

Trying to do and missing, we lose faith.

Being able to "do it right" (at least in our imagination), we regain faith and start to build our confidence :)

First "test drive" we fail miserably and fall from grace :)

In my opinion this is part of martial arts natural progression.

What i feel about most of the so called "martial artists" is that they have never faced one real combat/self defense situation.

They've never breaked their knucles punching someone in the faced or cutted their hands in somebody's teeth.

They've never got elbow hitted in the temples by someone twice their weight.

They never got distracted by a street punk while a second one attacked them in the back with a bat.

All "self defense classes" teach about how to defend from a "challenger" who comes to telegraphicly attack from the front or grab from the back (since when attacks from the back are forbidden in the streets?), but never teach how to recognize potential assailants or keep the guard up 24/7.

To me, martial art's techniques are the same as walking armed with a gun or knife.

Unless you have the combat behaviour and strategy to access the weapon in time and use it, it is useless (will end up killing you instead of the attacker).

Thank you for the compliment Arthur! :toast:

[Jock Armstrong]

Nobody has said it was bad, just that it didn`t seem overly different from many other MA. Relax. As far as the picture sequence goes, I wouldn`t be as scrunched up as the defender is but that may just be me. His balance point seems a little far forward but the entry and sliding parry look like standard Arnis/kali interception move as does the "strip" of the stick. I wouldn`t have bothered punching- just kept straight in and head-butted him- but thats a tech choice and doesn`t mean that the punch was a bad thing.
I am interested in how [or why you would bother] to apply a wrist twist from that position when it would be easier to smack nine shades of poo out of the baddie with the stick in your hand.

Does this now make me an anti semite?????

Some folks is mighty sensitive out there......