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View Full Version : Shinai hasuji & iaito hasuji



ichibyoshi
9th November 2006, 09:59
I've just started iai in addition to kendo. I must say that my first discovery is that it has really straightened up my shomen. Not that it was crooked, but it has somehow sharpened up my basics. The shinai really seems to run in a very nice groove after doing iai.

But I have also found that I consistently have bad hasuji. It's slightly out of whack. Not quite plumb. What I feel, or rather what my hands feel should be vertical is slightly off vertical: about two minutes past 12 to be precise. And consistently so. The same goes for kesagiri. My grip is always rotated a little clockwise, whether it's migi or hidari. ??

I realise that I just have some recalibrating to do, especially after 20 years of using a shinai, but I was just wondering if anyone else going from kendo to iai had come across this problem, or if it is just me...

b

rottunpunk
9th November 2006, 18:11
though they should be the same, the grip on a shinai tends to differ to that of iaito.
i found from doin iai, that holding a shinai was awkward due to the tsuka shape and the use of kote.
its just something you will have to get used to.
get your teacher to show you the correct hand position, and then do a cut (without shifting the position of the hands and see what this does)
left hand position and use is very important
also, try not to put any power in with the arms, but especially dont put say more right than left arm in.
though the use of tenouchi and shape differ slightly between the two arts, the basic ideas are still the same.
good luck,
and dont get too frustrated :D
now ill leave it to the experts to more elloquently write what i am trying to express
:p

Maro
9th November 2006, 21:21
It takes a long time to get the swing right in Iai. Although you have a little bit of insight from kendo, you're still a beginner so don't worry about it.

Kuri788
9th November 2006, 22:08
First time I used an iaito, I could feel, and even see the blade twist at the end of a cut due to poor hasuji. It didn't take long to correct it. It's great how the sword can provide you with instantaneous feedback. :)

ichibyoshi
9th November 2006, 23:38
What other answer did I think I was going to get? Practice, practice, practice. Many thanks guys. I suppose posting is really just an excuse to think about practice when I can't physically go and practice.

Thanks for signing up just to give me some of your experience Chris! ;) I couldn't wait until next Monday...

It IS great how you get that instant feedback from the sword. And also how iai and kendo really compliment each other (K:"nice sword!", I:"Thanks! Love your skirt!") :P

b

Ken-Hawaii
10th November 2006, 01:01
As these answers indicate, practice with your iaito is really the key to improving your hasuji. As a long-time kendoka, Ichibiyoshi, I'm sure you remember the first few thousand swings with your shinai, & it's no different with your iaito.

Unless it's pouring rain, I get out & do 1,000 suburi each & every day, & that's really what you need to work up to. The kinematics of performing your swing perfectly & consistently take a long time to develop, & you want to get things right the first time around, so getting your sensei involved is a necessity.

At my last dan exam, I had the extreme pleasure of having a hachidan tell me that my swing was "beautiful" - that made all the time & sweat well worth it!!

ichibyoshi
10th November 2006, 11:50
Ken, what fantastic feedback to get! I have so much to learn about the swing, and not just that but even the sequences of the kata are yet to be properly ingrained in my muscles. It's really salutory to be a beginner again.

b

Maro
12th November 2006, 22:13
Be careful with the Iaito though - 1000 suburi is ok if you are doing it correctly. If you're not, the weight will cause you some pain and it will be a wasted exercise.

Incorrect hasuji with a iaito can also stress it detrimentally.

ichibyoshi
13th November 2006, 04:25
Thanks Mat. I'm not going to do 1000 with my iaito just yet... I do 1000 with shinai & bokken for kendo, partly for technique, partly for fitness/endurance, partly to stay in touch when I can't get to training. My technique with the iaito is a long way from being able to do 1000 suburi productively. I'd probably end up with muscle tears in my right forearm. o.0

b

Maro
13th November 2006, 04:55
I have some right now - my own fault for rushing into it after 3 weeks holiday and not enough Suburi. Damn! :rolleyes:

Ken-Hawaii
13th November 2006, 05:49
You're right, of course, about not starting out with 1,000 iaito suburi, & maybe not even 100. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has had some really wonderful muscle pulls when I first started iaido...! Interestingly, most everyone in our dojo had strained muscles in our left forearms -- never figured that one out, especially as our sayabiki isn't all that extraordinary. But handling your new iaito is a very necessary chunk of your learning process, with lots of guidance & advice from your sensei.

A good part of handling the iaito has to do with your grip on the tsuka throughout the waza. Three of the best articles I've seen were written by Kim Taylor at http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor2_0100.htm & http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor1_0300.htm, & another by Hyakutake at http://www.hyoho.com/inte3.html. I refer our new students to these within the first few weeks of them starting iaido practice. Hmmm, and as we had two of our dojo students pass their kendo shodan exams this morning, which makes them eligible to start iaido, I guess it's time to send them those URLs, too.

You're a very experienced kendoka, Ben, & of course understand the concept of tenouchi in kendo. There isn't a whole lot of difference handling an iaito, I've found, except that you have to change your grip several times in most iaido waza for nukitsuke, kirioroshi, chiburi, & noto. Obviously the more times you (correctly) practice each waza's sequence of motions, the better your body will remember the kinematics, until they become almost automatic.

It's that "almost" that becomes critical as you learn & improve. I've probably done at least 100,000 Mae waza, but each & every one of them is just a little bit different. This may sound like a contradiction, but I really believe that iaido is a "living" technique, Ben, & that it's almost impossible to do exactly any waza exactly the same way twice. Beginners find that getting their timing just right is a never-ending battle, while we slightly more experienced types find that we often can't get our minds perfectly focused, our balance perfect, or our teki visualization precise enough for each waza.

So I think you'll find that your hasuji will evolve constantly as you understand each waza better & better. I perform my suburi in front of a large mirror (my wife & I were lucky enough to be able to build an outside dojo on our second floor after the floor blew off in a storm two years ago), & I do my best to watch each & every swing to ensure that my kamae is as straight as possible, that I'm always reaching out as far as possible (which also gives that nice "whooooot" sound via the bo-hi), & that my tenouchi is as consistent as I can make it. Yeah, it's lots of work, but I really feel that it's paid off in the dojo.

Have fun!!

ichibyoshi
13th November 2006, 10:45
Thanks for all that info Ken. I'm interested to know that about the changes in hand-grip during waza. I'll take this on board as general background however, as the iai that I study is not related to seitei or MJER. I'm yet to know the bones of it so I can't comment at all on how exactly it might differ.

The fact that each kata is always different is also an interesting notion. I know I can't do them the same way twice, but I put that down to my newbieness.

A friend and I were corresponding about the similarities between kendo jigeiko (free-sparring) and improvisational jazz duet: how if both participants give freely to the process without ego, something new and unexpected can be created. Last night while practicing kata, I thought about how kata are like classical music. You follow the score exactly, practicing the notes as written in the correct order and tempo, without inserting anything of yourself except the act of performance. Over time you memorise the score, and only then you learn to play without worrying about what comes next, but concentrate on the expression.

b