The Bujutsu of Takeda Shingen?

[Todd Schweinhart]

Hey ebudo fans,
I recently purchased some densho and makimono during my trip to Japan, to add to my collection, and have a few questions to ask openly. One of the densho that I got was a school named Koyo Ryu. It has two volumes with various points about going into battle with a group or man to man. In this record it states several times a relation to Takeda Shingen. I can't find any good info about this Ryu in the sources that I have. Can anyone give me any other info? Thanks in advance!
Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

[Yamantaka]

Hello, Todd!

I found nothing about Koyo Ryu but you may have better luck with Meik and Diane Skoss at http://www.koryu.com
Contact them! They are acknowledgeable and educated people and they may have your answer.
Best regards and best keiko
Yamantaka

[Jimmy Francoeur]

Greetings to All

Does somebody know if there is a koryu called Takeda-ryu that come from Takeda Shingen?

I ask because somebody in europe teachy it and I was wondering if this is real or not.

Thank You very much
Jimmy Francoeur
:wave:

[Earl Hartman]

The only Takeda Ryu with which I am familiar is a school of mounted archery that traces its lineage back to Takeda Nobumitsu (I think) who was cousin of Ogasawara Nagakiyo, the founder of the Ogasawara Ryu, a school which specializes in mounted and unmounted archery and traditional ceremonial etiquette. Both schools are still active today and often give demonstrations of yabusame. Both schools are reputedly based on the family martial traditions of the Seiwa Genji clan.

[Jimmy Francoeur]

Hi Earl

Thanks for the info. The Takeda-ryu this person is supposed to teach is a kind of aiki-jutsu. So, I guest this is probably gendai and not koryu.

:karatekid
Jimmy Francoeur

[Earl Hartman]

I would assume, then, that this person is using the Takeda name to associate his art with Takeda Sokaku of Daito Ryu. I know next to nothing about AJJ, so it would probably be best to post this on the AJJ board and talk to people who are knowledgable about AJJ.

The Takeda family has an illustrious history and traces its lineage back to the Seiwa Genji clan, which was descended from the Emperor Seiwa. Takeda Shingen was, I believe, the 15th lineal descendant of this line. The Seiwa Genji warriors were famed for their martial prowess (the Azuma no Kagami lists many distinguished archers among them) and many martial traditions claim to trace their lineage back to the Takeda clan.

Jimmy,

You must be talking about Roland.....uh.... Marotaux (sp)..in France.

He was a Hakko ryu guy for some time and was later in some way associated either directly or indirectly with the Juko ryu. He started his own system for a while but I don't remember what he called it. He later associated with someone claiming to be from the Takeda ryu aikijujutsu (aikijujutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku). This style has no historically verifiable lineage much like other styles claiming similar origins called variously Saigo ryu, Saigo ha Takeda ryu, Saigo ha Daito ryu and such. Stan Pranin of Aikido Journal has done significant research into the claims of these supposed koryu and is of the opinion they are of unverifiable origins. Since no documentation supports the existence of these schools previous to recent times I believe the claimed lineages of these schools need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Toby Threadgill

[Jimmy Francoeur]

Hi Toby

Yes, I was talking about Roland Maroteaux who teach "Takeda-ryu....maroto-ha" (also Aiki-goshindo). I didn't name the person but Your guess was right. I ask because this individual write articles in a magazine I read "arts martiaux traditionnels d'asie" (which is still good anyway) and I was wondering if he teach a real koryu or a made up one. Do You have the reference of the articles in Aikido journal?

Thanks and have a nice day:wave:
Jimmy Francoeur

[Ellis Amdur]

The Takeda Ryu aikijutsu has been around for awhile - forty-fifty years at least. I can't recall the origin story, but the founder (whose name might have been Takeda) claimed to have learned the gokui in a dream - it may have been Ueshiba who visited him, but honestly, I don't remember.

It's an odd group. They practice the usual suspects of aiki-locks and throws, but specialize in a strange randori, in which one person (or both, jeez, I saw a film of this in the early seventies) wears a stiff leather gauntlet, and chops away at the other, who defends with aiki throws. In essence, chop-chop-chop, attempt at throw - chop- chop - tussle - throw - up again - chop - chop - chop, etc.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

[Jack B]

I know someone who studied "Takeda Ryu Aikido" in Japan about 20 years ago under the soke Nakamura Hisashi. The fellow was a rough tough karateka, not an aikibunny, so of course he joined the roughest aikido place he could find. (To "soften up" his karate, he said. It didn't work.) He said the workouts were very hairy, lots of full speed competitive randori, and everybody who had been there any length of time had bum knees, shoulders, elbows, wrists, etc. He said it looked like dance night at the Veteran's Hospital. He stayed a year to give it a fair chance, got Shodan, and said thanky very much bye.

I saw one of his old manuals -- it looked like a combination of aikido, kenpo and illegal judo moves. Probably effective in its context but ultimately not his, or my, cup of tea. Apparently Nakamura claimed descent from a student of Takeda Sokaku, but called his style Aikido (at the time).

Jack Bieler

[souran]

I am new to the forum and came accross a brief thread on Takeda-ryu while browsing through the koryu posts.

I am a practitioner in Vienna, Austria, and thought that I would post a bit about the art, or my experiences in it, for what they're worth.

First, the best source for information on the art is www.takedaryu.com, the school operated by Roland Maroteaux is not an authorised school of the organization (it's a long story, but not really important, to each his own).

Aikijitsu/aikido is just part of what we practice, we practice a "holistic" system consisting in total of aikijutsu, iaijutsu (with batto-giri), kenjutusu, jukempo, jujitsu, jodo (with time including bo, yari and naginata), shugijutsu and shurikenjutsu.

The system is "holistic" because all of these arts are based on an underlyding system/strategy. The overall Takedaru Nakamura-ha system is broken down into these arts for training purposes, to make it easier for us to grasp and tackle things.

The differentiations disappear with time. Each of the arts deals with fighting from a different angle, under different basic conditions and with different weapons. But no one in our school only practices one of the arts, and none of the arts is tought in isolation; on the contrary, we are expected to study and practice all of the arts in conjunction, if possible (and most of us do).

It is also important to note that the designations of the arts do not necessarily mean the same thing that is often associated with the art, for example kendo for us is fought without armor and includes throws, iaido practice includes a form of free sparring and is **not** completed primarily from seiza, etc.

I guess I'll stop here, the web site offers information on all of the arts that we practice, as well as a detailed lineage of the art, which can also be verified through independent sources.

I will be happy to answer any questions, if I can.



eric graham

[Daigoro]

[deleted]

[Nicki Gerstner]

Hello Eric,

Quote: "Aikijitsu/aikido is just part of what we practice, we practice a "holistic" system consisting in total of aikijutsu,
iaijutsu (with batto-giri), kenjutusu, jukempo, jujitsu, jodo (with time including bo, yari and naginata), shugijutsu
and shurikenjutsu. "

This surprises me very much, for I have heard a lot about the Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha since 1994, and I also saw it several times. But no one to whom I spoke between 1994 and, let´s say 1999 roughly ever said anything about Sojutsu, Bojutsu or Naginatajutsu. Once I got an official Leaflet about the Ryu, but also nothing about polearms to be practised. Is this a newly added art in the school?

Just very curious.

Best regards,

[souran]

Hi Nicki,

According to my senseis, these arts are closely related to jodo (as is shugijutsu), and are taught later in the curriculum. They are not included in the basic program.

All that I have seen of bojutsu up until now has been explanations during training of the differences and similarities between working with a jo and with a bo. And we are told that we will later train with longer weapons. But first we have to master what we are learning now :-).

If you are ever in Vienna, you may be interested in visiting our training.

regards

eric graham

[George Kohler]

Hi All,

Since we are talking about pole arms in Takeda ryu, there is a interesting tid bit about one of the soke of this school. Ohba Ichio, the 43rd soke of Takeda ryu, studied Kukishin ryu bojutsu. He studied this school from Kiba Koshiro, who was a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The bojutsu that Ohba learned was called kutsu no kata and kuji no kata. What is interesting about these forms is that these can be used with either rokushaku bo or jo. I believe that he also learned hanbojutsu.

Ohba also taught these bo kata along with Takeda ryu to Sato Kinbei sensei.

[George Kohler]

Hi Daniel,

Ohba is the only one that I have heard.

[cybermaai]

Hello all,

I was wondering if there was any type of bujutsu associated with the Takeda family.

Thanks,

[fifthchamber]

Hi Ted,
Not that close, but try this posting over in the Aikijutsu forum...The Daito Ryu is probably as close as it'll get since Takeda Ryu Heiho doesn't seem to exist anymore..The Daito Ryu claim ascendancy from the Takeda family...Through Shingen if I remember correctly..Or bypassing him but closely..
Regards..

[JNavarro]

Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, of which Sokaku Takeda is considered the reviver of the art. People disagree how much of this style originates in the Takeda family and how old it is. But at least a portion of it is believed to come from a Takeda family martial art. You can find plenty of information in the Aikijujutsu forum. Hope this helps.

[fifthchamber]

......And if Mr. Navarro had posted any closer to mine I'd be looking for some hispanic links in my own family tree...
Hehe..
Regards.

[cybermaai]

Cheers guys. Will try there over there.

[fifthchamber]

Ted, I reckon the lineage would be pretty well documented online if you wanted a search on Google.com...They claim a line running straight through the Takeda family back to Shinra Saburo...The head of the Takeda lineage pretty much...Interesting line to follow..Next time I see you I'll see if I can point you to some good books to read on it...
You could try any of the series by Stan Pranin from Aikijournal and maybe some of the books by Kondo Sensei about the art...
There are others too...But I'd start with those...

[JNavarro]

Great minds think alike. I was pretty surprised to see your post as well. And you can just call me Jose.

[cybermaai]

Guys, get a room.

Seriously, thanks again.

[fifthchamber]

Ted....You're only saying that cause you've seen me in a skirt... :p

[cybermaai]

Yeah, and you looked so cute that you had to fight off your sempai with a large stick. :)

[fifthchamber]

Heh...No comment...
How are things down there? Well I hope?
Best to all next time you see them eh?

[glad2bhere]

Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, of which Sokaku Takeda is considered the reviver of the art. People disagree how much of this style originates in the Takeda family and how old it is. But at least a portion of it is believed to come from a Takeda family martial art. You can find plenty of information in the Aikijujutsu forum. Hope this helps.

There is a key distinction to be made here. Its is one thing to represent that one practices an art, and quite another to represent that an art is what one practices. Pranins' book identifies that TAKEDA Sokaku taught something and was induced to name it DAITO-RYU by YOSHIDA Kotaro. However, we can't know how much of what TAKEDA Sokaku taught was original to the Takeda family or the Aizu clan, for that matter. Would this then past muster as an "art"? Guess thats a very individualized sort of conclusion.

Flipping the coin over, we know that historically there was an art which is documented and identified as "DAITO-RYU" and there has been not a little time and energy spent by folks wanting to show a connection between this old practice and what TAKEDA Sokaku taught in the 20th Century. Again conclusions seem very individualized.

Personally, I think that the Aizu estate was a "hot-house" of experimentation and amalgamation among a variety of sources including Ueyshiba, Takeda, Funakoshi, Yoshida and perhaps, even Toyama and others. However, what came out of those efforts in the first third of the 20th Century is almost roundly represented as having old, old provenance which is about par for the course among Asian traditions, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kendoguy9]

Dear Mr. Taylor,

Daito-ryu might be the closest thing to a Takeda Shingen martial art alive today.

There is a ryu called Takeda-ryu that does archery and yabusame. I saw them at the Meiji embu and they are very good! I do not think they are related to the Shingen branch of the clan though. They have an English website here: http://www.yabusame.com/

There was a book published in the 1600's about Takeda family budo called Heiho Okugisho. It was translated into English by Obata sensei of Shinkendo fame. Mr. Obata is a decendent of the Takeda general Obata Nobusada (I think?). If memory serves they will be republishing the book soon as it is sold out and has been for a while now.

Daito-ryu includes Shingen in the lineage of the ryu, but it was actually his younger brother Kunitsugu that formed the Takeda of Aizu clan. The main Takeda line of Shingen died out with his son Katsuyori. So Shingen is an uncle of the Daito-ryu lineage. If memory serves me I think Shingen may have studied Kashima Shin-ryu sojutsu. You should check out Dr. Friday's book "Legacies of the Sword," for more detail.

I hope this helps a little :)

[DRooster]

Flipping the coin over, we know that historically there was an art which is documented and identified as "DAITO-RYU" and there has been not a little time and energy spent by folks wanting to show a connection between this old practice and what TAKEDA Sokaku taught in the 20th Century. Again conclusions seem very individualized.

Personally, I think that the Aizu estate was a "hot-house" of experimentation and amalgamation among a variety of sources including Ueyshiba, Takeda, Funakoshi, Yoshida and perhaps, even Toyama and others. However, what came out of those efforts in the first third of the 20th Century is almost roundly represented as having old, old provenance which is about par for the course among Asian traditions, yes? Thoughts?
Bruce

Great post.
Is that true?
If so, then can it be argued Daito-Ryu has similar 'roots'/historical authenticity to such modern arts as Bartitsu...?

[Rick3127]

Hi Guys

I saw mention of Takeda Ryu on the following website (http://www.jujutsu.com/jujutsu/html02/n-english.htm) .
Does anyone know anything about this branch?

Regards

Richard Dias

[glad2bhere]

Great post.
Is that true?
If so, then can it be argued Daito-Ryu has similar 'roots'/historical authenticity to such modern arts as Bartitsu...?

I wish we could get something definitive but the fact is that this portion of Japanese history has some pretty unsavory connections to the ultra-nationalist movement as well as efforts by certain conservatives to undermine the development of the democratic process in Japan in the first half of the 20th Century. Since one can't really dredge-up one subject without uncovering the other, I think most folks are more than willing to leave things to "oral tradition" (aka: "teacher says...").

For folks like me who practice Korean traditions we run into the same thing albeit concerning organized crime and collaboration. Different "unsavory-ness", to be sure, but still enough to dissuade in-depth examination.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Ames]

If so, then can it be argued Daito-Ryu has similar 'roots'/historical authenticity to such modern arts as Bartitsu...?

It could be argued. But here's the thing, most people have very little training in Daito Ryu. They've seen some videos, attended some seminars, and read the few books that are in any way reputable. However, I don't think that anyone has presented enough evidence for the fact that Daito Ryu is no older than Sokaku Takeda. There is only the absence of documentation. However, this being a martial art, we can also study the PHYSICAL evidence, which, in this case, are the techniques.

Using your Bartitsu examply (or another modern hybrid art), I think that depth of Daito Ryu, the complexity of the techniques and principles, and the singular logic behind its strategy, present good evidence that one man, however talented, could not have just made the entire art up.

[glad2bhere]

"...Using your Bartitsu examply (or another modern hybrid art), I think that depth of Daito Ryu, the complexity of the techniques and principles, and the singular logic behind its strategy, present good evidence that one man, however talented, could not have just made the entire art up...."

If at all possible it may be worthwhile to rein-in some of the gneralities.

"Complexity" is an assessment rather than a state so it may not follow that one would constuct a complex system as much as people following after would percieve the system as complex, yes?

Further such things as "singular logic of strategy" could just as easily be artifacts rather than concious efforts. As I write this I am thinking about the YANAGI-RYU of YOSHIDA Kotaro, the SHORINJI KEMPO of Doshin So and the SHORINJI-RYU Kempo of Richard Kim. Each of these might well be identified as unique systems. They also might be amalgams of varying amounts of other arts. As with the Rorschach plates, one will project onto a system what one wishes to see. Would anyone here disagree that a person will identify the gestalt of a shape depending on the overall pattern of a series of dots?

In the Hapkido arts we have seen repeatedly in the traditions of CHOI Yong Sul projections by folks who are committed to seeing in the practices of many of CHOI's students those tradtions one wishes to see, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Tony Wolf]

Did someone say "Bartitsu"? ;)

There is still some debate about to what degree Bartitsu was ever systematized, versus being a process of cross-training/experimentation between the major martial arts taught at Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club during the heyday of 1899-1903. That list would include the basics of Tenshin-shinyo Ryu, Shinden-Fudo Ryu and pre-reformation Kano/Kodokan jiujitsu (via Barton-Wright's training in Japan), elements of the various jiujitsu ryu-ha introduced by Yukio Tani and Sadekazu Uyenishi, "street savate" and walking stick fighting as taught by Pierre Vigny and a pot-pourri of catch-as-can wrestling tricks via Armand Cherpillod, all of whom were employed as instructors at the Club.

Considered separately, each of these styles was of varying vintage/heritage/lineage. For example, Vigny's savate and stick methods drew from Swiss and French military, rural and urban traditions of unrecorded lineage, but he was an innovator and a critic of the current state of these arts as they were typically taught to the middle classes during the late 1800s. He may also have been influenced by the stick-fighting sport of kalinda, which is of African descent and was practiced in French colonies in the Caribbean. It's safe to say that the Vigny style itself was historically, culturally and technically eclectic.

We know that there was a two-four year period of very intense cross-fertilisation between the Japanese, Swiss/French and English systems, actively encouraged by Barton-Wright himself, in which case the Bartitsu Club in London's Shaftesbury Avenue might well parallel the Aizu estate in Japan in several respects.

Personally, I think that Barton-Wright probably would have developed a specific Bartitsu training syllabus if the Club itself had prospered beyond 1904. What actually happened, as far as we can tell, was that his students were expected to master each of the "source arts" well enough that they could use them against each other if they needed to. Amongst the by-products was a selection of specific jiujitsu vs. boxing techniques, recorded by Uyenishi's student William Garrud in his "Complete Jujitsuan" (1919), the addition of jiujitsu waza to the Vigny stick fighting style, and ultimately the whole genre of combined Japanese/European self defence systems that enjoyed a boom-time during the first two decades on the 20th century.

It was a fascinating confluence of old-world combatives brought together in the creative hot-house environment of Edwardian London; not ko-ryu, but old-school ...