Does anyone want to help me with an interview?

[Red Ink]

I'm doing a school project and need to have an interview. If you would be so kind, I'd like to ask some questions on this forum. Is that ok?

[Prince Loeffler]

I'm doing a school project and need to have an interview. If you would be so kind, I'd like to ask some questions on this forum. Is that ok?

Go ahead and Make their day ! :)

[Red Ink]

The japanese sword was typically made of tamahagane, correct? How does it differ from iron, if at all?

[Brian Owens]

The japanese sword was typically made of tamahagane, correct? How does it differ from iron, if at all?
Tamahagane is steel (steel being an alloy of iron, carbon, and other elements).

Specifically the term is used for steel that was made by smelting iron ore -- often in the form of a black sand, called satetsu -- together with charcoal in a smelter called a tatara.

The design of the tatara was such that the levels of oxygen, carbon, carbon dioxide, etc. produced a steel that was as close to perfect for sword forging as could be achieved at the time.

Pure iron (the element Fe) would be too soft to hold a good edge. As iron ore (iron oxide -- Fe2 O3) is smelted, oxygen is removed and carbon added, creating steel. As carbon content increases the steel becomes harder. But too much carbon results in a steel that is too brittle.

In the tatara, impurities in the iron ore melt off as slag, and are removed; but rather than producing pure iron, as some types of smelters do, in the tatara the iron combines with carbon from the burning charcoal to produce fragments of steel, different fragments having different carbon percentages.

The sword smith can then take the sorted tamahagane and combine the different types in the ratios he deems ideal for his purpose, and then in his own forge and at the anvil, heat and hammer the fragments into blocks of sword steel. This process is called tsumiwakashi.

Some swords were made of only one type of steel, and then heat treated in such a way as to change the composition of different sections of the blade. Others were made by using different steels for different parts of the blade, and making various types of "sandwiched" constructions of the different types -- a process known as kobusegitae.

In kobuse forging, the smith will select from steels known by such names as hagane (edge steel), shingane (core steel), and kawagane (jacket steel), although not all forms use all types.

This is probably more information than you wanted, but I hope it is helpful.

[urbalte]

Definately more than I thought I eer knew, but still interesting none the less. Thanks fo rthe info, Brian. Love your posts, BTW.

[Brian Owens]

Thank you.

My work hours are such that my off hours allow lots of time for reading and other solo pursuits. While other members, like Dan Harden and Keith Larman, are actually out there making swords and fittings, I just read and write about them -- standing on other's shoulders, as it were.

'twill have to suffice for now.

[Red Ink]

Thanks, that's fine. Alright, on to the next one. How do blades typically differ in curvature and shape?

[pgsmith]

Hi Nicholas,
For lots of information on Japanese swords, read Rich Stein's extremely informative Japanese Sword Guide here ... http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
Lots of what you are looking for can be found on the following pages ...
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/glossary.htm
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/terms/terms.htm
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/niku.htm

Here's the quick answer ...
First, I'll touch on curvature. This is primarily decided by the maker. While there have been "trends", it is mostly a matter of what the maker feels like doing, and how the steel reacts to the quench. In older feudal times when tachi were in use (sword hung cutting side down from hangers), they tended to have a bit more curvature to them. Swords have tended to have less curvature over the last hundred years or so due to the influence of iaido. It is easier to learn proper nukitsuke (draw and cut) and noto (resheathing) with a sword with less curvature. Once you've learned though, it doesn't really make much difference.

Next I'll hit on blade shapes. There are not many different blade shapes for the Japanese sword.
Shinogi zukuri is by far the most common. It has a distinct shinogi (ridgeline) that separates the curvature of the cutting edge from the burnished flat area leading up to the mune (spine). It also has a distinct demarcation called the yokote, between the main body of the sword and the kissaki (tip).
Shobu zukuri is not uncommon in daito (long swords over two feet). It has no yokote, and the shinogi extends right out to the kissaki.
Hira zukuri is very uncommon in daito, but is seen quite a bit in tanto (less than one foot blade length) and occassionally in wakizashi (one foot to two feet blade length). Hira zukuri shape has no shinogi, and there is a pretty straight line from the mune to the ha (cutting edge).
Unikobi zukuri can be occassionally found in both daito and wakizashi lengths. This is where the kissaki curves up to be higher than the mune of the blade. These are almost always from naginata (halberd) blades that have been cut down to sword size. Unikobi zukuri is a pretty much standard shape for naginata blades.

[Brian Owens]

If I may add to Paul's excellent post:

The blade's curvature is called sori, and the depth of the sori and where on the blade the greatest amount of the curve occurs is one of the main distiguishing characteristics of a sword. Different smiths, or schools of smiths, and different eras in sword smithing, tended to favor one type over another, so this can be helpful in determining the provenance of an antique blade.

The depth of sori is measured from the lowest point on the curve to an imaginary line drawn from the munemachi to the kissaki -- the same imaginary line that defines the nagasa, or length, of a blade.

If the deepest part of the curve occurs near the middle of the blade, it is called toriizori (torii sori) because it resembles the curved top-piece of the torii gates at a Shinto shrine.

Katana most often have toriizori.

If the deepest part of the curve occurs in the bottom third of the blade, it is called koshizori (waist curve).

If the deepest part of the curve occurs in the upper third of the blade, it is called sakizori (upper curve).

Many swords from the Muromachi period had sakizori.

A straight blade is said to be muzori (no curve). Some katana were muzori, and this type is the prototypical sword of the ninja of popular myth. But there were also very old tachi made without curvature, which were a symbol of the nobility.

The double-edged ken -- the oldest type of Japanese sword -- is also muzori.

Purhaps the rarest type is the uchizori (inside curve). In this form, the back of the blade curves downward, rather than upward, resulting in an edge that is usually fairly straight; but if the degree of curvature is large, then the edge, too, will have a "reverse curve." Other than in myth and in anime, this type is often thought not to exist, but I know of at least one example of a very old sword, probably ceremonial in nature, that is enshrined in a Shinto shrine in Japan. (The name escapes me at the moment, and I'm at work, without my reference materials.)

Another aspect of blade shape is the style of back, or ridge, called the mune.

In Shinto, Shinshinto, and Gendaito blades, the most common type is the two-surfaced iorimune (roof-shaped back).

If one were to flatten part of the ridge of an iorimune so that there were now three surfaces, one would have an example of mitsumune. Swords of the Soshu-den are among those using mitsumune.

One rarely seen style is the rounded mune called, plainly enough, marumune (round back).

The next component of shape is the type of side ridge -- the shinogi.

I'll give someone else a turn at that one.

[Red Ink]

Alright, what about the shinogi?

[SLeclair]

I'm doing a school project and need to have an interview.

Is it just me or does this "interview" sound more like people from the forum doing your homework?

I'm all for providing links to help you research (and there were some good ones provided), but I feel the research itself should be done by the person wanting the information, especially in an academical setting. For example, you ask about the shinogi, yet the links provided earlier do contain information about it. A google search would not be amiss either.

But maybe I'm just cranky, so please don't mind me.

[Red Ink]

No, this is for my grad project. They said I could interview a forum if I wasn't able to find someone locally. A loophole of sorts. That's all.

[pgsmith]

No, this is for my grad project. They said I could interview a forum if I wasn't able to find someone locally. A loophole of sorts. That's all.
However, it is fairly obvious from your last question that you didn't bother to read the information that I provided links for. Also, despite the fact that some very knowledgeable people have taken the time to give you good information, your only expression of gratitude was one quick "thanks" as you asked your next question. So, these facts being evident, why should we waste any more time trying to help you out? You answer a question for a change! :)

[Brian Owens]

However, it is fairly obvious from your last question that you didn't bother to read the information that I provided links for.
Sorry, Paul, but I think you're missing the point.

His assignment, according to him, wasn't to do a research paper on swords, it was to interview someone about something. Providing a link isn't the same as answering the question; it's like Barbara Walters asking Bill Gates what his plans are for the next decade, and Bill saying, "Barbara, go read PC World magazine."

I'm happy to answer the questions, and I'd say, "Let's take it to Private Messaging" except that if I say something really stupid I want others to jump in and correct me.

So, Red Ink, I'll try to add more later, about shinogi, but I'm heading to work now. Give me a day or so if no one else chimes in first.

[Red Ink]

Thank you, and sorry if I sounded ingrateful. It was a quick thank you because I was kind of busy at the time.

[pgsmith]

His assignment, according to him, wasn't to do a research paper on swords, it was to interview someone about something. Providing a link isn't the same as answering the question; it's like Barbara Walters asking Bill Gates what his plans are for the next decade, and Bill saying, "Barbara, go read PC World magazine."
I disagree Brian. Anyone doing an interview on any subject, has to be at least minimally conversant with the subject matter. Barbara Walters would NOT interview Bill Gates without researching to find out what are the latest things going on in the world of Microsoft. If you don't know anything about the subject, how can you know what questions are pertinent? I personally don't consider "what about shinogi?" to be a well thought out question, and it indicated to me that the gentleman asking hadn't bothered to do any research of his own. It would be akin to Barbara asking Bill ... "what about DLLs ?".

Just my opinions though. I tend to be a serious stickler for young people putting in the work.

[Brian Owens]

...I personally don't consider "what about shinogi?" to be a well thought out question, and it indicated to me that the gentleman asking hadn't bothered to do any research of his own. It would be akin to Barbara asking Bill ... "what about DLLs ?".
Well, yeah, I can see where you're coming from on that. Although, to be fair, it was in response to my earlier comment, "The next component of shape is the type of side ridge -- the shinogi. I'll give someone else a turn at that one." So he was asking for others to chime in, since it had been several weeks.

I was also giving him some leeway because I don't know what his level of experience is -- in martial arts or interviewing. "Grad project" could be something for his graduate degree in journalism from a university, or it could be his graduation project for high school. My niece did something similar for her senior project, where she interviewed my mom about what it was like growing up during the Great Depression. SHe didn't do much research on the subject, probably didn't know what the WPA was, or maybe even who FDR was; but the point of the assignment was to talk to someone of a different generation about what their life was like when they were children.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand: anyone want to wax elloquent on the subject of shinogi?

[Mark Murray]

Don't know shinogi but wanted to say thanks for posting. I'm learning something new. The links were great, but were info overload. Lots of stuff, so it was nice to see the short posts putting some of the pieces together. So, thanks Brian and Paul for taking the time to do so.

Mark

[pgsmith]

Well, yeah, I can see where you're coming from on that. Although, to be fair, it was in response to my earlier comment, "The next component of shape is the type of side ridge -- the shinogi. I'll give someone else a turn at that one." So he was asking for others to chime in, since it had been several weeks.
Ah! Must have missed that statement in your post, so I retract my complaint, and apologize for general bitchyness! :)

Apologies Nicholas, your question wasn't as vague as I thought it was, given Brian's statement that preceded it. Unfortunately, I probably won't have a chance to get to it until Friday if someone can get to it before then.

[kdlarman]

Here's something about shinogi fwiw.

Early in the history of the Japanese sword there were a couple shapes that were prevalent. Hira zukuri and some of what were called katakiriha style shapes. Basically the hira zukuri is a "flat" design -- no ridge at all. But to have the mass you need for a good cut meant the blade got rather tall from back to edge. This was great for cutting soft targets at this thinness made for a very thin and razor sharp edge. The problem came about that the blade was more fragile and the edges took damage easily and the blades would get bent if anything was off angle. The katakiriba had a sort of ridge line but it was very close to the edge. Stronger blade but sometimes the cutting was odd and the edge wasn't that great. Over time the shinogi zukuri style came about. This accomplished a couple things. The ridge line (at about 1/3 down from the back of the blade) meant they could thicken the blade reducing the width from back to edge without adding additional weight. So think taking the back and edge and pushing them towards each other with the blade now bulging out at the ridge. So same mass, different distribution. Having the ridge high on the blade allowed them to keep a relatively sharp edge. Basically what you are looking at is evolution of a design. And the balancing act formed while trying to increase thickness for overall blade strength, minimizing adding additional weight, and keeping a sharp edge angle. And with shinogi zukuri the blade remained relatively thick all the way up through to the tip. But this left a very short tip.

So to the kissaki (or tip). If you keep the monouchi healthy with a wide ji surface for both slicing soft tissue and hacking at harder targets you now have to "end that blade" rather abruptly. Also remember that the katana was often used for thrusts (tsuki). So the tip actually had to perform a number of functions. It had to be able to slice but also thrust. But it was a rather thick end point. So the "fanned" shape of the tip emerged as seen on shinogi zukuri. So here you have an incredibly complex surface. It can slice with a shallow slicing cut. It has optimal edge support for both those tip cuts and for forward thrusting. Even the heat treatment on the edge with the turnback (as well as the forging of that area, but I digress) is done to ensure hard material supported by soft. And also so that the blade could be reshaped later if necessary should part of the point be snapped.

So shinogi zukuri is really (imho) a great example of the ultimate compromise of virtually every need the users had. It balances a dramatic number of variables in an amazingly complex and subtle way. Which is why some of us more anally retentive guys get so frustrated with poorly shaped blades... Most don't realize how critical all those little "froo froo" details are to optimizing the weapon. And that's what it is all about. An optimized weapon.

Shobu zukuri is another style with a ridge. But it lacks the kissaki shaping you see on shinogi zukuri. And you often see it defined as a shinogi zukuri without a kissaki. The problem with that is that it is really a misleading statement (although true in some respects). Shobu is like an iris leaf gradually tapering to the point. Usually with a strong diamond shaped cross section (meaning the shinogi are high -- thicker than the mune). This changes the blade dynamics considerably. And makes for a faster blade but a blade with less mass at the tip. Meaning cutting changes a lot. And it is not seen extensively historically in katana lengths. And I think that is because it doesn't balance out the needs most swordsman have very well. For some it might be perfect as it has some advantages, but many other disadvantages.

But for now... Gotta go take the kid to see Santa. More later if I get time. But priorities are priorities. And the kid comes first.

Oh, if you want to see a really interesting tanto I have an Osaraku tanto up on my Moderntosho site right now for sale by a modern japanese smith. It is a fantastic blade. Take a look at that thing and try to figure out what the design is all about. Most look at these things without ever trying to figure out exactly what problem they were trying to solve with all the subtle details of the shape, design and style. The Osaraku is an interesting piece. Let me also say that sucker is thick...

http://moderntosho.com/sale/TatsuyoshiOsaraku.htm

I'll come back to that "post-santa" visit.

[Ron Tisdale]

Marvelous site, exquisite work.

Thanks for that,
Best,
Ron

[kdlarman]

I just reread my post... Have to correct one thing... Crummy spelling...

Osoraku. I don't know why I can't spell that right...

[kdlarman]

Anyway, Osoraku tanto are a rather interesting topic. One I haven't looked into nearly enough yet myself. They are relatively rare, actually, the first one being made by Sukemune and apparently owned by Takeda Shingen. I'll attach an image of that piece.

The term osoraku simply means "perhaps" or "probably" (one of the language fellas could probably clarify it better than me). The joking about it among collectors is that when it was made the shape was just so different they called it "perhaps". As in perhaps this, perhaps that. Who knows. Kinda interesting really.

They really weren't done very often although they've gained popularity today. They are an unusual shape, they are imposing, and the one we have would probably make a very large mess as a vicious thrusting weapon. And it really is a gorgeous piece in terms of craftsmanship and execution. But a long tip that can easily pierce deeply through armour... Nasty looking beast. And I wonder if that isn't part of the appeal of it as well -- it just looks mean.

Anyway, the first one had the word "osoraku" on it. And it stuck. Kinda cool...

[kdlarman]

Oops, forgot the picture. Or I can't figure out the attachment doohicky.

http://summerchild.com/Original_osoraku.jpg

[kdlarman]

Marvelous site, exquisite work.

Thanks for that,
Best,
Ron

Thanks, Ron. Of course it doesn't hurt to have work by really good smiths... ;) Inspiring to me too. The benefit for doing what we're doing is that I get to closely study stuff I really can't afford to keep...

[Ron Tisdale]

I wish I could afford some of that work. Man, hope I don't get canned during this latest reorg. Maybe in a couple years...

Best,
Ron

[Red Ink]

I see what you mean. Once again, thanks for the help.

[Red Ink]

Alright, thanks everyone. I've heard a lot about the different shapes the sword has taken. So, what about the more detailed features of the blade, like the hamon? Judging from some sites I've been on, there's a large variety of different patterns. Once again, I'd certainly appreciate it.

[Brian Owens]

Hamon is often incorrectly called the "temper line," but they are actually formed during the heat-treating stage of hardening, not tempering, so a more accurate term would be "hardening pattern."

Early hamon were marked by a rather straight line between the harder and softer sections, a pattern called suguha.

It was later found that if small soft sections were extended down to the edge, like widely-spaced teeth on a giant comb, chips on the edge were less likely to propagate along the length of the edge -- sort of like the way rip-stop nylon fabric works. The way the clay was applied to the blade to achieve this effect governed the resulting shape of the pattern, and different smiths developed their own distinctive shapes, with names like "large wave," "small wave," "clove bud," etc.

As much an artistic device as a functional one, these various hamon are one of the most obvious aspects of a blade's features in art sword appreciation.

[Brian Owens]

Expanding a bit on the above...

Hamon fall into two broad categories: sugu-ha (straight pattern), and midare-ba (irregular pattern).

Midareba can be further subdivided into ko-midare (small patterns), o-midare (large patterns), and saka-midare (slanted patterns).

Another way of classifying them would be to divide them among suguha (the aforementioned straight patterns), notare (long undulating wave patterns), and gunome (short semi-circular wave patterns).

Then there are the many variations on the basic themes, all of which add up to more than a dozen major patterns and many more combinations.

[Red Ink]

Ah, I get it. Thanks again. Also, how does the grain of a blade vary? I've seen straight designs and others resembling wood grain. How does that happen?

[Brian Owens]

Ah, I get it. Thanks again. Also, how does the grain of a blade vary? I've seen straight designs and others resembling wood grain. How does that happen?
It depends on how the hot steel is folded.

Hammering the various layers will introduce "grain" into the steel as the blocks are elongated. If the steel is folded parallel to the lines each time, a straight-grain appearance will result, and if the metal is folded perpendicular to the lines in the later stages a burl appearance will result.

The number of folds, how each is hammered, the type of steel, the hardening process, etc. will all affect the appearance of the grain (size, intensity, etc.), as will the polishing method.

[Red Ink]

Well, I think that's just about it. Thanks to everyone who helped me. Brian, I've got to say, you helped out a lot. Thank you.

[Brian Owens]

It was my pleasure.

Once you've got it all put together -- or even after it's graded -- I'd be interested in reading the whole thing. Feel free to send it to me in a PM, if you care to.

Either way, let us know how it goes over with your teacher.