Knife vs knife schools/styles

[szczepan]

Hi all,

I'm not sure it's a right forum to post it.
I'd like to know more about knife vs knife methods fighting (as it seems it is impossible to defend a life with empty hands against a knife).
Any schools/styles with good reputation?

thank you

[Jeff Cook]

Just about any filipino art would be good for that. Kenpokido has excellent knife-fighting strategies as well.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Sochin]

Hmmm,

to hijack this thread for a moment and climb onto one of my favorite soapboxes, (and all caveats firmly in place) I've yet to be taught a practical approach to empty hand defense against a knife attack in a traditional karate class. Any technique that was taught that did have (imho) practical value was not part of a thought out practical methodology of defense but more a fortuitous accident. That is one of the reasons I now lurk in h2h mode!

As for training in the use of the blade for self defense against a blade you will find a lot in FMA, but I suggest that you should be aware of the following. FMA takes the 'art' of things seriously - you will explore a vast range of stuff that can be done in the safety of the dojo but which may not be there for you in the fury of the fight. Some teachers will stress that the moves are the same for a stick and a blade but they are different and must be used differently to get full advantage of what each has to offer.

Unless you live close (Florida, Colorado or Seattle) buy the vids from Bram (http://www.bladeforums.com/cgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&category=6&BypassCookie=true), Webb and Janich, (Panther?) and/or Keating (combattech.com ?) and Kelly Worden...they are all different in approach and personality and give good bang for the buck.

good luck,

[Neil Hawkins]

I agree with Ted, totally and am only going to add that there's FMA and then there's FMA, I have seen a number of styles and varients and many DO NOT teach effective knife defenses or knife vs knife strategies.

There is discussion on the various H2H boards about the validity of knife vs knife anyway, it is not all that common and if the guy knows how to use a knife you'll be dead before you can draw your own.

Regards

Neil

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Just about any filipino art would be good for that. Kenpokido has excellent knife-fighting strategies as well.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Well, my friend in Germany asked a few big escrima organisations, and got negatif response - they don't teach it, no free sparring at all( with plastic or rubber knive).


Originally posted Sochin

Unless you live close (Florida, Colorado or Seattle) buy the vids from Bram (http://www.bladeforums.com/cgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&category=6&BypassCookie=true), Webb and Janich, (Panther?) and/or Keating (combattech.com ?) and Kelly Worden...they are all different in approach and personality and give good bang for the buck.

thanks a lot!
I live in Montreal (Canada),any good schools here?

happy holidays to all

[Sochin]

Montreal hey!

I'm as far west as you can get and still be Canadian but my baguazhang teacher has a Montreal affiliation for internal Chinese martial arts but no practical application, especially no knife work! :( I buy vids.

Dave Walmsley runs the Cdn Combat e-group out of Toronto, maybe he has Montreal connections, try:
survival-defense-owner@egroups.com

And isn't Tony Blaur in Montreal? He's posting in the Ueichi forum now,

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/cgi-bin/Ultimate/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true .

I know some find him abrasive and a little something-or-other but his work seems good to me. I guess I don't really know that he teaches knife skills, tho.

Good luck,

[Sochin]

Montreal hey!

I'm as far west as you can get and still be Canadian but my baguazhang teacher has a Montreal affiliation for internal Chinese martial arts but no practical application, especially no knife work! :( I buy vids.

Dave Walmsley runs the Cdn Combat e-group out of Toronto, maybe he has Montreal connections, try:
survival-defense-owner@egroups.com

And isn't Tony Blaur in Montreal? He's posting in the Ueichi forum now,

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/cgi-bin/Ultimate/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true .

I know some find him abrasive and a little something-or-other but his work seems good to me. I guess I don't really know that he teaches knife skills, tho.

Good luck,

[Eric Cobb]

Good question and great posts thus far. I have some very definite opinions on this and could write pages but will try to keep my comments succinct.

I have studied "knife" systems and styles for at least the last 15 years including a variety of escrima, kali and silat. As mentioned above, in many cases what is taught doesn't work, period. The most realistic, commercially available work I've seen to date for surviving in the real world comes from Tony Blauer (who does live in Montreal BTW) and some of the newer material from Hock Hockheim. Guru Steve Plinck of Pentjak Silat Serak is also outstanding, but does not address this issue on tape.

Some of the biggest problems that exist in many knife systems today is the emphasis on too many drills emphasizing complex motor sets that ignore the effects of adrenaline on physical capacity. In addition, I have almost never encountered a system or teacher that really dealt with the gut level rage and blitz attacks that are more the norm on the street. Real people with real rage and a real desire to see you dead don't grip, move or slash or stab anything like what is experienced in the typical knife class. What is most interesting here is that should you ever be forced to protect yourself with a knife, the odds are very good that none of us will move as we do in class either! There are a number of excellent drills that can illustrate some of these ideas for you if you are interested.

As I don't know if it is appropriate to suggest particular materials on this forum because I am somewhat new to posting here, I would invite you to e-mail me at your convenience for my suggestions.

Eric Cobb

Tacticaldoc@aol.com

BTW: I am a coach involved with Tony Blauer's PDR program and one of the biggest reasons that I have spent the time and money involved to get to do this is because of what I have learned from him about the knife... I've not studied personally with Hock but have lots of his material and I have been a student of Guru Plinck for the last 8 years. I list this information so that you know a bit about my background as well as my biases! Happy Holidays!

[George Ledyard]

I would like to put in a good word for the videos offered by James Keating at ComTech.
http://www.combattech.com/default.cfm
I own virtually hundreds of instructional videos and his rank right at the top. He has an uncanny ability to make his presentation logical and understandable. Every time your are thinking "Yes, but what about..." he addresses precisely that issue.

Despite the fact that knife versus knife is one of the least likely self defense situations one might encounter, it is tremendous training as it develops great speed, relaxation, and coordination.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 12-22-2000 at 05:22 AM]

[Sochin]

When it comes to vids, Tony Blaur live has to be better.

Guru Plinck is highly regarded by the maniacs in Animals digest, and that says enough for me.

[JamesF]

- There is discussion on the various H2H boards about the validity of knife vs knife anyway, it is not all that common and if the guy knows how to use a knife you'll be dead before you can draw your own. -

Hi Neil,

What (where) are these H2H boards you talk of?

Also, how do i do the 'quote' thing :(

James.

[Jeff Cook]

Mr. Janczuc,

"Eskrima training includes the instruction of fighting with sticks, machetes, knives and other objects." - http://members.aol.com/DPEskrima/ENGL-02E.html. By the way, the above link is a German escrima page!. Pass it on to your friend in Germany.

From the Doce Pares website, http://www.docepares.com, "Eskrima, or Arnis as it is known in the northern areas of the Philippines (including Manila and most of Luzon island), is a martial art for both practical self-defense and for sport. In Eskrima, combatants fight with one or two fighting sticks known as olisi (also called garrotes) or with bladed weapons (including swords and knives) or barehanded."

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Neil Hawkins]

James

The major boards I lurk at re H2H are BladeForums (www.bladeforums.com/cgi/Ultimate.cgi?) and KnifeForums (www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Ultimate.cgi?). Like everywhere there is a lot of rubbish, but if you keep your eye's open there are some gems.

Another good source are e-mail lists, there are two major ones, CQC (www.egroups.com/group/cqc) and Combatives (www.egroups.com/group/combatives). You have to subscribe to these, although CQC does have an on-line archive that you can browse. Combatives is the better of the two, but both have a common membership and are fairly quiet at present.

For the quote thing, check out the FAQ at the bottom of this page, there is a script called vB that is usd to do quoting, url's, bulleted lists and italic, bold or underlined text.

Regards

Neil

[Sochin]

I just got Bill Bagwell's Bowies, Big Knives, and the best of Battle Blades and I'm sold!!!

Bowies rule!

:D

Actually it is a pretty good book, a little to may technical referenses to blade shape, edge shape and the making process that weren't explained but a good read. Quite a good sell on the use of the bowie too.

[47th ronin]

If you are still looking for a knife school in Montreal, beside Tony Blauer, try contacting Phil Gelinas. As with most Filipino fighters, he is awesome with sticks or blades. Check out his bio at http://www.dogbrothers.com/sledbio.htm. His phone number and e-mail can be found at http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com/contacts.html. Worth the trip downtown even if you are in the suburbs.

[szczepan]

thanks a lot for info!

Sorry for late reply,I was quite busy last few weeks (new computer, new job, same wife thanks god) :D

I'll try to find a time to visit T.Blaur, may be some seminars, hope so.