When does Randori occur in Aikido?

[Darren Yeow]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering, if and when (if yes) Randori occurs in Aikido. I haven't done Aikido for an extensive period, but so far I was wondering if there would be a day when the Aikido equivalent of sparring would occur, if it does at all.

I personally think practicing the waza over and over again, is a really good way at becoming proficient at performing it, but is there a time during an Aikidoka's life when sponteneity becomes part of the regime, to build up split second adaptability in any circumstance.

Thanks, DY

[autrelle]

here is my personal thingy about aikido being effective in application: 1) in aikido you learn how to build the strength of your body and how to naturally use the body to generate power. 2) then you learn waza that corresponds with the methods previously mentioned. 3) then you learn strategies with which to apply the techniques. someone just beginning their aikido practice may noy appreciate the more "practical/adaptable" aspects of it because they won't have the training needed to perform the techniques as such. as far as matched contest between aikidoka, you should, if possible, refer to volume four and five of Saito Sensei's Traditonal Aikido Series. he demonstrates enough kaeshiwaza (reversal) and henkawaza (recovery) to ensure the aikidoka that standard practice should be hard enough if not harder tham contest between participants. he also notes that aikido "purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement." (vol 5 p16) aikido is designed so that we can practice even the most dangerous of technique safely. but in a match, you have to have rules to ensure safety. i agree with saito in another article i found on the web. he said, roughly "no rules, people get seriously injured, and with rules, there is no reality. neither of these have a thing to do with budo." i'll find a link and you can all read it for yourselves.

if you want my own personal advice on how you can gear your training toward a more realistic and applicable approach, here it is: 1) train very hard so that you get a really, really hard workout (don't forget to be safe). the easiest way to do this is to take lots of ukemi. 2) don't forget to train in a manner that will forge your spirit.

that's it.

strengthen your body in a manner that will lead to strenghtening your spirit. in actual confrontation, no matter how good your technique is, if you can't settle your mind when facing one person or perhaps several, your thoughts will be scattered and your technique won't help you. i have been in a few "real" altercations and i have been really fortunate in the fact that i was never seriously hurt at all, but i always noted afterward that if i compared the incident to a day of decent training, the training was always more strenuous. not more violent or heinous, just that it required more of me physically than any fight that i had been in. if you condition yourself in class physically and mentally, you'll be okay. at least that is my own opinion and experience. remember to train safely, though.

truly,

[Chuck Clark]

Yes, there is randori where the sente (iniative) can change and kaeshi waza happens until a technique can't be countered.

We do this practice a great deal along with sotai kata renshu in the Jiyushinkai. If you're interested, please go to our web site and read more.

I think any well developed learning system must have a way to "test technique" and problem solving skills. The difficult part is to eventually deal with the paradox of transcending victory and defeat. Randori geiko is different than shiai but sometimes the line is very thin.

Have a Safe and Happy Holiday Season.

[Aikieagle]

Of course there is Randori! in fact, my class has a Randori class once a week, we practice multiple attackers, applied techniques, and randori movement. I think it is very important that Randori be put into the cirriculum. if a student does not know how to use what he knows then what good is his teachings? if we were purely in it for the enlightenment then all we have to do is sit Zen for that. But as martial artists and budoka, we train in combat. Being that we train in combat, it is necessary to train in both teaching and tactical modes. If we go into either of these too deeply then we stray off the path; too much educational aikido can cause a fatique and weakness in technique(also, a false sense of reality), but if we train too much in practicality then we can never learn things such as footwork, extending energy, and etiquette. We must combine the two to learn basics, but making sure it works.
In most other classes in the dojo, we are breaking down what we do, not resisting, going with the movement, standing still until they do the technique. These things are important to learn a technique, but you can't stay that way all the time, you have to progress. Then there are the other classes, where there is no handouts, either you get me or i get you, simple as that. As an attacker, if you get the chance to attack, do it.
Multiple attackers is very much a "seizing chaos" moment, we are taught to "swarm" the defender. There is no room to go slow and careful, it is up to you to orchestrate the movements of the attackers. they are allowed to kick, punch, grab, bite, whatever happens happens. i remember once watching a person do swari-waza(seated technique) jiyu- waza (free technique) for his rank test, the attacker leaped up and kicked him from seiza!! Got him right in the mouth. It was funny to see b/c it was the most random thing i had ever seen in a test, but the point was well taken.....be ready for anything....anything can happen.
I saw another randori being done in rank test, the defender was not paying attention and was lossing focus b/c he was tiring, one attacker walked up behind him very slowly and struck him on the head three times before he turned him around. These werent full blows, just a small hit to wake him up. And i believe that sometimes we do need to be slapped in the face sometimes, to wake up. that is why learning to apply by being realistic is important, it is the physical way to wake us up. Otherwise we get lazy in our technique and we think that we are good, then one day someone comes along and threatens your lives, do you think you will be ready for that? Why risk it? Truth does not come out of cheating or laziness, the truth rings loud in your ear......or sometimes banging on your head when someone struck you.......

[MarkF]

Chuck can't help it, it is the judo background which can cloud the difference.:wave: Chuck!

I get the feeling that randori discussed here tends to lean in the direction of freefighting (easy) but in actuality, randori no kata would be a good description.

I am certainly open to being somewhat biased toward randori, since I do judo, and most of my exposure to aikido is shodokan ryu aikido. Actually, randori can be anything you want it to be, and the training in randori no kata should be no less important than any other kata. Kata, or better, waza, changes in a randori setting, but is no more or less important than repetitive excercise strictly by kata.

Randori should not be a test per se, but instead the ideal defense and offense should be practiced with the same intensity as anything. A new throw, an atemi never learned but suddenly becoming reliable, and then your weak areas practiced become as strong as ones strong points. Randori has never felt like shiai, and believe me, I've done a lot of both. Instead, fully resisting uke(mi) should almost always be included and a good randori session should, at the very least, bring questions of how to use your defense against certain nage, and vice versa.

There is an excercise in music which may be called "atonal." The object is not to repeat any note before it becomes impossible not to, and then, to change the notes repeated into a different rhythm, different key, and different timing. This is something which can also be done in randori, and sometimes, a little practice on using a totally different gaeshi against the same attack, or a different attack against the same defense. If you practice this a little, it is not only a good workout, but sometimes, the questions one may have had after an attack drill can be answered in randori.

Anyway, no matter how one does it, it is a great workout, some lasting for several hours without stopping, if the time is available. Even give and take will help your kuzushi, etc, and it is not only a valuable tool, it can be a heck of a lot of fun.

Sometimes, fun is what holds one to practice when you just don't feel like doing kata that day. Shiai is what held my interest through the lean years, and randori may do the same.

Just a thought.

Mark

[Darren Yeow]

Great answers, guys thanks. Ok now, can I ask another question, is there an equivalent of shiai in Aikido (as I knind of thought they were the same thing, sorry...)?

Thanks, DY

[autrelle]

that depends on how much you and your fellow students liek each other! that's a joke. anyways, in my very limited experience there aren't any matches as you are asking about. too many questions arise-one against one or one against many, weapons or not, etc. Aikido as i have been taught places no restriction on the response to an attack, whereas most matches, even UFC-type matches have rules, limitations, and referees to ensure that the match rules are adhered to. what type of parameters would a person set on an Aikido match?

http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/saito1.htm

that is the link where you can read the comments Saito makes about match fighting.

happy holidays to everyone!

[MarkF]

Good reading material concerning randori and shiai in aikido is "Judo and Aikido" by Tomiki Kenji Sensei. Tomiki style aikido definitely includes shiai, but not all Tomiki stylists include shiai. However, nearly all include randori. There are some who do tanto shiai, etc.

Randori and shiai vary greatly, IMO. "Free" randori must be limited to what is relatively safe, but not all shiai is so safe, thus the difference.

While during randori, the goal is to complete a waza which would give you the upper hand, no one wins, and the lesson is obvious, to both parties. Also, one must rise quickly to do it all again. You'd be surprised what muscles get a work out that one may not notice until the next day.:)

Shiai may be winning and losing, but both should include mutual welfare, and still an area of weakness to practice. One may win for a day, but you all are the same in the dojo, and in life. If you can accept the premise of attack and defense, freestyle, then you should have no problem accepting winning or losing, as the loser actually takes away the "lesson" taught.

The best shiai/events I've been to have been kendo shiai. The general "wa" is excellent, and when awarding prizes and such for winning, usually it is something of use, as in the last I attended, where one winner received a new shinai and a certificate as "most improved kendoka." This was no "karoddy tournament."

Do a search on Google.com. and use their cache feature. Inputting words such as "Tomiki Shodokan Shiai" bring up a days worth of results on the benefit, how to manage a shiai, and also why shiai should not be part of aikido training. You will find articles about the value of shiai to judo, but more and more, traditional judo is making a comeback in a big way. There is a difference between a game and a learning environment, and Shodokan shiai are quite nice, really.

So why am I posting on Christmas morning, you may ask (or not)? Well, no one wants to work on a holiday, there are few hospital admits (except through the ER), and I can earn enough on a twelve hour gig to get me through nicely for a month or so.:D

So Happy Christmas, and "what have we done?" To a prosperous New Year, everyone!:santa:

Mark

[Karl Kuhn]

Glad to see the very thoughtful responses to the question. Time does not permit me to add much at this point, but I would like to mention a few things.

There are Aikido Shiai (actually we call them Friendship Games these days). Shodokan Aikido as developed by Prof. Tomiki includes various levels of "free play" that include Randori, as has been well described, and Shiai (ok, Friendship Games). There are national events in the US, the last of which was in VA in August.

There are also International events, the next being Osaka in Oct 2001. This will be the centenial of Prof. Tomiki's birth and should be the largest and best expression of these events to date.

I believe there is talk of a national summer seminar in preparation for the event that will be open, as they all are, to everyone.

For some reason the Shodokan home page is erroring out, but the JAA USA page is

http://www.sni.net/tomiki/

Look for the articles by Tomiki, well worth the read.

Hope this helps.

Karl

[TIM BURTON]

In Britain we (the British Taiho Jutsu Association) receive training from sensei Brian Eustace in Judo from the school of Abbe and Otani and in Aikido from the school of Tomiki and Oba. This is along side the Taiho Jutsu system that does not have Shai in the strict term of the word, more like two people going for it whilst padded up in fist suits or the equivalent.
Our randori and shai come from the Judo and Aikido elements mentioned above, However the BTJA has created a hybrid of both to incorporate the separated ma ai of Tomiki Aikido with the closer conditions of Judo and the inclusion of ground techniques which include leg locks. This was created to allow a police officer to experience simulated combat where distance and levels can change against an uncooperative partner. The teaching point is then to expose the person to Taiho Jutsu and its principle of Sen or taking the initiative immediately in order to stay on top of the encounter. They are reminded of the lessons they have learnt in the Randori/shai phase, where by they are defeated by the constraint of the rules, stamina, strength, reaction time etc. Taiho Jutsu can then viewed with more understanding by an officer. It is then that the truth of Taiho Jutsu or any martial art becomes clear. In order to survive you must be first, first to recognise an attack, first to act, first to finish.

[kusanku]

'When does randori occur in Aikido?'

In my own experience, admittedly limited in Aikdo, when you least expect it.:D

Kusanku