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Doc-G
18th December 2006, 20:47
Hi people,

I'm putting aside a little fund to get a really nice iaido sword (I already have an OK one for class but I guess I'm looking for something a little more special). Hopefully by the time I move up a couple of rankings I will be able to reward myself with something really nice. I have been looking at the Thaitsuki Nihonto custom (available here: http://www.roninsupplies.com/) versions that are available here in Australia (you pick all the fittings etc) for around $600-$700 Aussie dollars (around $500 US).

Firstly, does anyone know if this is a good deal?

Secondly, does anyone know if these swords are any good?

Thirdly, am I better off spending my money elsewhere?

Thanks for all advice,

George

Maro
18th December 2006, 21:20
Buy a Japanese made Iaito, they are the gold standard.

Thaitsuki aren't "Nihonto", that's a brand name. Besides, you won't need a Sharp sword for Iai yet.

Doc-G
18th December 2006, 21:47
Hi Maro,

Thanks for the advice. Thaitsuke also do 'non-sharp' blades or practice blades or whatever you want to call them with all the custom fittings. After seeing some photo's of accidents you can have with a live (sharp) blade, I dont want one for as long as possible.

So anyway, who in Japan makes the 'gold-standard' non-sharp ones? There seem to be so many out there.

Again, all advice appreciated.

George

Maro
18th December 2006, 22:24
No worries George!

There are many manufacturers so you get a good choice (most of the blades are generic but the fittings vary for preference).

The most popular seem to be Meirin Sangyo, Tozando and Nosuiyado. Personally I have a Tozando that has seen me over 4 years and I'll replace it with the same but realistically, there are no massive difference between manufacturers - it's a bit like the Ford or Holden choice!

The only other thing I'd do is print off the fittings of the ones you like and show them to your instructor. Sometimes, there are preferences for styles studied that might not fit your style.

Enjoy!

Kayden
20th December 2006, 01:54
Once again as I posted else where, I don't know what you need for an Iaito but these are the best sword makers I know of.

CAS Iberia Hawani (Spelling?) makes the best practicle Katanas. The price is good for the quality and they will hold up well for your life if you are just doing kata, or for a good couple of years if you are doing cutting demo's and competitions.

http://www.casiberia.com/casiberia/...&cat2=Practical

The next link I happen to prefer but might be out of your price range.

http://www.museumreplicas.com/webst...nese_items.aspx

Keep in mind what you are going to be using it for. I trained with a crappy show peice wrapped in electrical tape and held together with apoxy.

Only recently did I buy a more expensive one for doing live steel, and I went to a custome sword vender.

http://www.badgerblades.com/

Maro
20th December 2006, 02:25
Kayden, not to be rude but none of those blades are suitable for Iai or are "tiptop Iai blades" as requested.


EDIT: I've seen kaydens other suggestion in another thread.............. :rolleyes:

Brian Owens
20th December 2006, 07:11
...EDIT: I've seen kaydens other suggestion in another thread.............. :rolleyes:
Me too.

Museum Replicas may be a good source for European-style blades (I said "may be" -- I don't know), but the examples of their Japanese-style swords I've seen were junk, in my opinion. I can only assume that Kayden has little experience in traditional Nihon Budo/Bugei as related to swords and swordsmanship.

"I trained with a crappy show peice wrapped in electrical tape and held together with apoxy [sic]." Please! This isn't a SCA or TFA forum. This is E-Budo: Koryu Bujutsu: Sword Arts. The key words are "Budo" and "Koryu."

gendzwil
20th December 2006, 14:41
Once again as I posted else where, I don't know what you need for an Iaito but these are the best sword makers I know of. If you don't know what a iaito is, why are you even posting? Nothing you suggested is suitable for iaido.

You can find nice iaito from bogubag.com, tozando.com, swordstore.com and others. Online, probably the most customizable are the ones from swordstore.com.

Kayden
21st December 2006, 01:55
My apologies for my confusion. I jumped in with knowledge I thought was relevant when it was not. I was in a rush when I posted and did not have much time to look into what Mr. Ujvary actually wanted in a blade. I wanted to provide links to the quality blade makers that I know of and simply cut and pasted them from another post. As Mr. Owen pointed out I have little experience in traditional Nihon Budo as it relates to anything much less swords and swordsmanship. My dojo gave very little in history lessons and focused much more on technique, kata, and application. I have been studying traditional oriental martial arts for but four years and most is still very far from my grasp. Where as I have been studying Modern and European martial arts for going on twelve, my knowledge base and truthfully my preference still falls to them.
After doing some research and following links that others posted I am still slightly confused. From what I have discovered and Iaito is a light practice sword that is usually made out of a blend of aircraft Aluminum or folded steel. The blade is ALMOST always unsharpened, and USUALLY has the balance point set further up the blade, but in all other ways is IDENTICAL to the traditional Katana. After doing this research I can understand why Badger and Museum Reps would be unsuitable, but why Hawani? You can get the folded steel blades unsharpened. And barring that Hawanni blades say you could use them for cutting drills where as most of the Iaito which I found expressly suggest against it, I fail to see what the difference is.

Once again sorry about the confusion.

Brian Owens
21st December 2006, 05:42
...After doing this research I can understand why Badger and Museum Reps would be unsuitable, but why Hawani? You can get the folded steel blades unsharpened. And barring that Hawanni blades say you could use them for cutting drills where as most of the Iaito which I found expressly suggest against it, I fail to see what the difference is.
The upper-end Hanwei/Paul Chen blades are pretty nice. Bugei Trading carries them, for example, and they make sure that the swords they sell fit the bill.

But some of the lower end Hanwei offerings, at least in the past, had blades that weren't well balanced, hilts with wrapping that came loose with much use, etc. Things may have improved across their entire line by now, but the main problem is that they are steel blades, and therefore illegal in Japan. Since one can get a non-steel iaito of equal or better quality for the same or lower price, it's usually better to start with than a steel blade. If one isn't going to cut with it, one doesn't need a steel blade anyway, so having a bladesmith dull a steel blade is sort of like putting a Volkswagen engine in a Ferrari.

Better to get a standard, Japanese-made iaito in the beginning, and then save up for a nicer shinken later.

BTW, I have a Paul Chen sword, a kogarasumaru tachi replica, that I like very much. I cut with it a few times, but it now sits as an art sword in my living room. Very nice, but not suitable for Iaido/iaijutsu.

gendzwil
21st December 2006, 14:40
The Hanwei (not Hawani or Hawanni) swords in the price range of iaito have poor fittings not suitable for iaido. The most important thing in a iaito is the quality of the fittings, especially a strong correctly wrapped tsuka (hilt). The upper-end ones usually have tsuka that are too long, and are sharp.

The blade is another issue. If you want a iaito for regular practice, most people want it a little lighter than a steel sword. Repetitive strain injury is a real issue for iaido. So getting steel is not necessarily better than the alloy blades.

Not only that, but the OP asked for choice. If you order from a place like swordstore, you can choose the material and colour of the ito, the material and colour of the sageo, the finish on the saya, the material and style of the menuki and other metal fittings. Most importantly, you can get the correct blade length, as they offer pretty much any length you might need in .5 sun increments (1 sun == 1.2"). There are thousands of possible combinations. That's way more choice than the handful of Hanwei models available.

kdlarman
21st December 2006, 16:17
Swordstore has some great options for customization.

At the high end of the market for iaito any of the major iaito (mogito) makers from Japan have very, very, very nice swords. You won't go wrong with any of them on the very high end.

Tozando, Swordstore, Bogubag, Meirin iaito, etc. all have great stuff on the high end. As a matter of fact most of these makers (possibly all?) get their blades from the same places. Heck, there are also only a few places making the variety of fittings. It's about who puts them together and how. The top end models from all of them are uniformly very nice in my experience.

Just be prepared to spend appropriately. Quality tsukamaki, fittings, saya, etc. costs money. Doesn't matter if the blade is a nihonto or a piece of modern non-sharp metal -- quality in mounting simply costs money.

Good tsukamaki can cost you a couple hundred for one tsuka. Good lacquer work can costs many hundreds more. Good fittings cost hundreds. It adds up.

But... If this is your training tool it is important that it be the best. Cost often isn't about something being "snazzy" but about it being done well. Sometimes a simple fitting can be very expensive. No gold, no inlay, no carving. Just quality and time and subtle shaping.

Brian Owens
21st December 2006, 21:56
...If this is your training tool it is important that it be the best.

...Sometimes a simple fitting can be very expensive. No gold, no inlay, no carving. Just quality and time and subtle shaping.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

"Kids" (of any age) are most often attracted by showy pieces and extravagant advertising; but the practicing Budoka usually has a more refined taste, putting substance above style in his or her priorities.

The fit, finish, and feel of a sword are critical to not only successful training, but also to safety. Once one has been in training for a while, and has looked at and handled a number of swords, he will have a better grasp of what the important qualities are, but until then getting advice from one's sempai and sensei is a wise choice.

If you look around, you'll probably see that the vast majority of Iaido students have swords in "basic black." Nothing showy, just plain and functional...as it should be.

Maro
21st December 2006, 22:16
Agreed, hopefully people have learnt some things from this discussion.

Doc-G
22nd December 2006, 05:28
Thankyou to all for all your great replies. They were certainly very helpful.

When I'm ready to purchase, I shall certainly heed the advice given.

I couldn't agree with you more regarding the appearance vs quality issue and that is why I asked the questions. As a beginner, when I see everybody with 'basic black', it makes me even more confused because they all 'look' the same.

Quality first...bling bling second!

;)

George Ujvary

Kayden
23rd December 2006, 06:52
All of the Iaido Practitioners I have talked to speak of the fittings like they are something static. With all of my swords one of the main points I look for is they HAVE to be able to be dismantled. This is doubly true for Katanas where all of the BASIC cleaning and sharpening instructions I have read for them include taking the sword apart. Is this not done with Iaito? And Why? Balance and feel of a sword are personal; before I dismantled my Katana it was clunky and rattled a bit. Now after re-wrapping and adding some talcum to the handle it holds great. One of My rapiers was unwieldy when doing pommel strikes, so I changed the steel handle for an oak and drilled 1/8th of an inch out of the pommel it worked great, till I broke my hand and had to pour a little bit of lead into the hole to make it butt heavy enough for my lagging pinky.
Does no one do this for Iaido? Most of the Mentality that I have run into with oriental swordsmanship is that the sword and wielder are ONE. If one doesn't deconstruct his (sorry ladies) or her sword how can one hope to wield it well? Is this something that is lost in either the globalization of Oriental Martial Arts or is it something that is absent in just Iaido? Or in how its modern practitioners speak of it?


Slightly concerned. . .

Brian Owens
23rd December 2006, 10:54
...before I dismantled my Katana it was clunky and rattled a bit. Now after re-wrapping and adding some talcum to the handle it holds great. One of My rapiers was unwieldy when doing pommel strikes, so I changed the steel handle for an oak and drilled 1/8th of an inch out of the pommel it worked great...

...Is this something that is lost in either the globalization of Oriental Martial Arts or is it something that is absent in just Iaido? Or in how its modern practitioners speak of it?.
First, if the swords you speak of were made by "the best sword makers [you] know of" I'm wondering why they were aparently so poorly made to begin with.

Second, it is clear that you haven't spent much time around traditional Japanese-style sword arts. Japanese swords are designed to be dismantled, and part of the training includes how to do this. There is a formal ettiquette to cleaning and examining swords that is taught within the arts, so I don't know where your impression that it has been "lost in ...the globalization of Oriental Martial Arts" or is "absent in just Iaido" comes from.

To be honest, both your last post in this thread, and your last in the other Iaito-related thread smack of a sour grapes attitude by someone who has been caught with his foot in his mouth and is resentful for being called on it.

Kayden
27th December 2006, 21:09
To be honest, both your last post in this thread, and your last in the other Iaito-related thread smack of a sour grapes attitude by someone who has been caught with his foot in his mouth and is resentful for being called on it.

Sour Grapes: No
Foot in my Mouth: Most definitely

The above post was me asking questions and expressing concern for my lack of knowledge and possibly mistaken impressions that I received from speaking from Iaido practitioners. Yes I admitted early on that I jumped in and spoke with out knowing what we were actually discussing, now I am trying to get my impressions corrected and build a better knowledge base so the next time someone asks "I want a Tiptop Iai Blade. . ." I can say, "I have no clue where you can buy one, I do not use Iaito, but let me ask some people who practice and know more than me."

As for the question of the quality of sword makers I put fourth. They are the Best sword makers I know of, depending on what you want the sword for. (Keep in mind when I was originally posting I was thinking swords, not Iaito) If you want a weapon I would always say go to Badger, you may have to go through half their stock till you find one balanced as you like(I actually put of buying from them for several years because I didn't find one suited for me the first dozen or so time I went to buy, but when I did, it handles like a dream) If you want a training tool, I would recommend Museum Replicas, their swords are heavy, sturdy, and cheap(this is the blade I had to rewrap to stop it rattling, it rattled only after my having used it for six months)

"First, if the swords you speak of were made by "the best sword makers [you] know of" I'm wondering why they were apparently so poorly made to begin with."
What I was doing to my swords was custom fitting them to me or up keeping them after basic wear and tear, and say nothing of the quality of their make. To expect a sword to be perfect right out of the forge would be like buying a $2000 designer suit but not taking it to the tailor shop to get it fitted or an antique ring to the jewelry shop for a cleaning and remounting.


I have been buying swords for ten years, as with most of those interested at a young age the first few I bought were $#!+. As I got more and more involved, interested, experienced, and resources I started to learn what crap was and what was good. I now (though this discussion) have found a large gap in my education and am taking steps to rectify that.

My other Iai related post is getting close to one of my major sticking points in traditional martial arts and will be addressed there. But suffice to say that many of the ways the Traditionalists view things and the way I view things don't match up. The Sour Grapes Aspect of my posts is probably, in truth, my bitterness on that subject showing through. In this post I tried not to let it because of the amount of information and good discussion involved. For what ever reason in the other topic I felt the need to be on the defensive.

Always inquisitive,