Daito-Ryu compared to Yamabushi Jujutsu

[jdostie]

From Izzyzx


Hello Roy, I have the videos and I have studied with Shihan Ibbara. The tapes, like any other training videos you have to be accompany them with hands on training. You can buy a video on how to build a brick wall, but unless to train and practice with a master mason (you may build a wall) your wall will look like crap.

Shihan Ibbara holds a number of seminars annually and he has a small dojo in NY. He has never turned away a martial artist looking for knowledge or looking to add some good effective techniques to their MA arsenal.

As for Aiki-Jujutsu, we live in America not in Japan. Japanese methods of training and movement are great if your final goal is to achieve some form of spiritual training. Shihan Ibbara has 10 active black belts training today and none of them would want to put their personal safety or the safety of others in Daito Ryu. It’s a beautiful art good for self-development, but in a street fight or arresting a crack head, Yamabushi Jujutsu is the most effective art.

With Respect

I did not want to get involved in the other thread, but this seems like an entirely different topic.

I'd like some comments from those knowledgeble about such things on this if possible without getting into a flame war. I know that there of course were evolutions of arts, thus different Ryu, but I was given to understand that many/most of the Jujutsu principals would be quite similar - though emphasized in different ways. And that Aiki-Jujutsu would add Another element (Aiki - hopefully I'll someday understand what that really is), at the higher levels.

Also, even within Daito-Ryu there are different organizations: Main-line, Kodoaiki, Rappokai - and others, and that even within these organizations there is quite a bit of difference in areas of emphasis or style - but that at the root it should (I would think) be very much the same art . . . Anyway, my point kind of goes both ways, at the root, it seems that all forms of jujutsu would have a lot of similarities. . . I've also heard it said that arts tend to diverge, but then come back together at the more advanced levels.
I don't know if this is true, but the point I am trying to understand is - is it possible to classify Yamabushi Ryu as better than Daito Ryu (in street effectiveness) as a generalization? Would not it need to be more specific?

Moreover, my guess is that one system might be more useful in a given situation (close quarters combat withhout weapons against multiple opponents for example) and another more effective in another situation (you name it), or perhaps it depends on the opponents skills.

Thoughts?

[Izzyzx]

Hello J.

My Thoughts are such: Shihan Ibarra would be the best person to answer your questions. But since you seem to be directing your question to me, I’ll attempt to answer you. The different between Classical Daito Ryu and Yamabushi Kai is like Ying and Yang (Survival vs. Tea Ceremony). Daito Ryu is trying to preserve tradition, Yamabushi Kai is trying to preserve your life.

I believe you are right in saying the Jujutsu is similar from Ryu to Ryu with some variations. If you have ever been to a large Jujutsu seminars you can see a dozen different systems, but they all have a basic foundation.

Yamabushi Ryu, has its foundation/roots Mi Yama Ryu, a Ryu which has its roots in Judo (just like Brazilian Jujutsu) and Sosuishi Ryu Jujutsu. But Yamabushi broke ranks with Mi Yama Ryu went Shihan Ibarra (already a master level) joined up with Shihan Yonezawa -- Kodo Kai the US representative* and blended AJJ in the system.

Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. Now you take Judo as a foundation an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc, which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beast... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system.

Now you add some of the most effective and practical Daito Ryu techniques and Shihan Ibarra you have Yamabushi Kai . Shihan Ibarra could teach pure Daito Ryu, but Law Enforcement personnel and Street Fighters don't want a Tea Ceremonial Art they what to survive an attack and inflict measured punsihment...

I hope I did not offend Shihan Ibarra with my over simplict explanation of Yamabushi Kai.

My two cents.


*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…

Israel Gelpi

[Chris Li]

*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…

That's romantic, but when I lived in Japan we used written contracts, just like anywhere else in the world. Historically, many martial arts schools would have you actually sign a contract before entrance. In any case, prior membership in a group or organization doesn't necessarily give you a right to the intellectual property of that organization once you have left.

Best,

Chris

[BigJon]

It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido.

Interesting(Joe Yang interesting).
I guess I only imagined injuries sustained in training jujutsu...oh and that black eye I had once once was fake too. :rolleyes:

[kenkyusha]

I believe you are right in saying the Jujutsu is similar from Ryu to Ryu with some variations. If you have ever been to a large Jujutsu seminars you can see a dozen different systems, but they all have a basic foundation.

That is because most of what is called 'jujutsu' in the states is hybrid Kodokan Judo/aikido/Shotokan Karate... not that there is anything wrong with that, but koryu jujutsu is a bit different in look and feel.


Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. snip

What Kano sensei (and subsequent members of the Kodokan) have removed from shiai was meant to be supplemented with kata. Though Kano sensei's ideas and methods were revolutionary in some ways is clear, but to imply that there are were/are no workable JJJ systems before 1882 is a bit silly, ne?


*BTW: I have seen the handwritten charter signed by Shihan Yonezawa establishing Yamabushi Kai as the NY Branch of the Kodo Kai. And that is why Shihan Ibarra has right to use the Kodo Kai in his patch. In Japan a man's handshake is his word, in the US it's documentation and Shihan Ibarra has both…
But was Yonezawa a shihan in Kodokai? If not, he was probably not able to authorize shibu (one imagines that sanction comes soley from the Menkyo Kaiden?). Even if it was all completely above-board, upon Yonezawa's 'resignation' from the organization, doesn't it stand to reason that in order to be considered a legitimate branch, there would need to be another charter from someone within the kai? Maybe it's just me...

Be well,
Jigme

[DDATFUS]

The different between Classical Daito Ryu and Yamabushi Kai is like Ying and Yang (Survival vs. Tea Ceremony). Daito Ryu is trying to preserve tradition, Yamabushi Kai is trying to preserve your life.


Hmmm... I've only seen a tiny bit of Daito Ryu, but I've read a little bit about the life of Takeda Sokaku. I somehow doubt that preserving tradition was his main goal. When he modernized/re-enovated/made up from scratch/whatever Daito Ryu, I suspect that he was trying to make the most effective combative art for real-life situations that he could. Isn't the desire to teach a real, practical fighting art the reason that he chose to focus on jujutsu rather than teaching kenjutsu? And based on the testimony of the police and such that trained with him, it sounds like he succeeded. Most of his contemporaries seem to have thought that Sokaku's Daito Ryu, at least, was a real life-or-death budo.

As far as "preserving tradition" goes, how many folks these days have as much hand-to-hand experience as Takeda S. had? It sort of makes sense to try and preserve what he did as closely as possible.

[Brian Griffin]

Now you take Judo as a foundationGood start, so far...

an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc
Whoops! Those already exist in Judo; no need to "add" them. Some of us even practice them.

Yes, really!


and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc, Yup...those too.

which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beastNo he didn't. And it's "Jigoro".

They've always been part of Judo. I learned them decades ago, from my teacher who learned them from Kawaishi, who got them from Kano.

... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system. Need I say it?
Judo has those, too. Always has.

[aikihazen]

Israel,

You are making a fool of yourself. Please...reconsider...it's getting painful to watch.

Best,
Ron

I agree.... I am laughing so hard my tummy hurts.

Especially at this "Yamabushi Ryu, has its foundation/roots Mi Yama Ryu, a Ryu which has its roots in Judo (just like Brazilian Jujutsu) and Sosuishi Ryu Jujutsu. But Yamabushi broke ranks with Mi Yama Ryu went Shihan Ibarra (already a master level) joined up with Shihan Yonezawa -- Kodo Kai the US representative* and blended AJJ in the system.

Judo is one of the most practical martial art/self-defense. It is very effective because your opponent's attacks are real and not staged/fake like in Jujutsu/Aikido. Now you take Judo as a foundation an you add controls techniques, such as ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc and joint punishment such kote gaeshi, gyaku kote gaeshi, kansetsu waza, shiho nage, etc, which were remove by Jigaro Kano to tame the beast... Finally you add striking, blocking, and kicking techniques (Kempo). And you have a typical Jujutsu system.

Now you add some of the most effective and practical Daito Ryu techniques and Shihan Ibarra you have Yamabushi Kai . Shihan Ibarra could teach pure Daito Ryu, but Law Enforcement personnel and Street Fighters don't want a Tea Ceremonial Art they what to survive an attack and inflict measured punsihment...

Seriously...Comedy can KILL! :)

How many times have I heard stuff like this before... from what little I have seen it's a great art...why ruin it by posting what you dont know about other Martial Arts???

William Hazen

[Chris Li]

You lived in Japan and learn nothing of honor... What a waste...

People are people - people in Japan, martial artists or not, are no more or less honorable, on average, than people anywhere else. If you check out your Japanese history you'll find that the samurai did not, historically, have what anybody would consider a very high level of "honor" - which is why the Tokugawa had to clamp such extreme methods of control on the country. Don't take my word for it, it's a matter of public record - for example, http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_hurst_0501.htm

Best,

Chris

[jdostie]

I seriously didn't want to stir anything up. Just an honest to goodness question.

With respect to "the tea ceremony," I suspect/hope/believe that it's possible to teach traditional ceremony along with a deadly art. The two don't seem mutually exclusive - unless I misunderstood and you are saying that by comparision to Yamabushi Jujutsu, Daito Ryu is a "tea party."

Knowing nothing of Yamabushi Jujutsu, and very little about Daito Ryu (still a newbie), but judging by your comments, it sounds like what you are saying is that Yamabushi is suprior because it does not have "staged" attacks. Still there must be some kind of "if this happens there are several options, and they are . . ." and then practice them. I don't know if Kodokai has randori, but it seems like that sort of principal must apply. Would not that, or whatever "sparring" or whatever there might be deal with that?

As a side note, I was looking for something about "use inside the palace" on the mainline site - I was going to ask about "arresting techniques" if you will, in case that's part of what you believe is superior. Anyway, I didn't find it, but the web site has been updated. I thought the readers might be interested: http://www.daito-ryu.org .

In any case, the question comes back to is it the techniques you think are superior, the way it is practiced, the overall system? From what I have gathered it seems to be mostly the notion of a "randomized attack," or possibly there are other types of attacks the have not been covered?

Respectfully:

[jdostie]

Hello J.

My Thoughts are such: Shihan Ibarra would be the best person to answer your questions. But since you seem to be directing your question to me, I’ll attempt to answer you. [/I]

By the way, I was not necessarily directing the question at anyone in particular, it was a question about whether one can compare one system to another in that fashion, or whether it would be better to compare certain aspects etc.

[Brian Griffin]

I understand Judo Katas. No, I'm afraid you don't.

If you had the tiniest inkling, you would be unable to post such tripe without having your head explode.

We practise them in Jujutsu... I find that extraordinarily hard to believe, but I'm willing to be proven wrong:
Just post a video of yourself practicing itsutsu-no-kata

I'll apologize when the laughter subsides...

Judo came from Jujutsu ..Da... Wait...didn't you just finish explaining how your jujutsu came from Judo???
Try to keep your story straight.

[kenkyusha]

Jigme Chobang Daniels What is your real name? I wanted to check your background to see who you trained with and who awarded you, your rank (I assume you have some rank) and I wanted to see who made you in charge of destroying Shihan Yonezawa legacy. And who appointed you to invalidate all his branches and nullified all the ranks he awarded.
Isreal my love,

That is my real name. If you want my training history, PM me and I'm happy to send it along (I'll tell you right now, I'm a nobody with modest ranks in a handful of things and active training in two arts).

Two things though:
1) I am asking questions on my own behalf. While I am certain that my primary instructor takes no issue with making honest queries, any foolish behavior is my soley mine and should not reflect poorly upon those who have spent time offering instruction in their arts.
2) I am not out to ruin Mr. Yonezawa's legacy or to 'nullify rank' (even if that were possible...), but suggest to you that your reactions are not representing your cause very well here.

Be well,
Jigme

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Dear William, The biggest joke of the century was when you were born...

Your Mama...


For those of you that have been on E-budo a long time does this seem like the resurection of our old friend Popie? Or perhaps the chap that claimed he designed the F-14 and hence knew all about aiki.......I can't remember his name.

Mark J.

[aikihazen]

For those of you that have been on E-budo a long time does this seem like the resurection of our old friend Popie? Or perhaps the chap that claimed he designed the F-14 and hence knew all about aiki.......I can't remember his name.

Mark J.

And in my experiance his time here will be short. This is a site for serious students of the Martial Arts and I am glad it's run like one. :)

William Hazen

[George Kohler]

Izzyxz has been banned.

[john_lord_b3]

Isreal my love,

That is my real name. If you want my training history, PM me and I'm happy to send it along (I'll tell you right now, I'm a nobody with modest ranks in a handful of things and active training in two arts).
Be well,
Jigme

-out of topic mode on-
Just out of curiosity, Mr. Daniels... are you a Tibetan?
-out of topic mode off-

I have some videos of Mr. Ibarra, by Panther Productions. I think his technique is very very good, think of it as Aikido/Jujutsu simplified for street self-defense/police arresting tactics. After all, he was a police officer. Mr. Ibarra has exchanged emails with me in the past as well. I think he is a legitimate martial artist with good skills. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Stanley Pranin wrote an entry about Mr. Ibarra in the Aikido Journal Encyclopedia. (www.aikidojournal.com)

[Ron Tisdale]

The thing is, that was never really in doubt. What people were asking about was his use of a certain logo, not whether or not he was skilled, or could kick butt.

As to our other friend, well, we tried to let him know how he looked...but apparently it didn't work.

If he should read this, I'm easy to find for anyone who cares to look.

Best,
Ron

[jdostie]

Thanks guys, but back to the original question - if just for a moment. Perhaps one reply on that would be sufficient.

Can one actually make a comparision of an entire system such that "Yamabushi is far more effective than Daito-Ryu", or would it be technique/situation dependant. (Excepting of course a truely poor system).

Thanks again.

[kenkyusha]

-out of topic mode on-
Just out of curiosity, Mr. Daniels... are you a Tibetan?
-out of topic mode off-

No, but my parents have been students of Tibetan Buddhism for some time, so both my younger brother and I ended-up w/Tibetan names.

That Mr. Ibarra is a good practitioner and teacher of combative arts was never in question.

Be well,
Jigme

[Nathan Scott]

Folks, just to give you a heads up -

While this thread has been quite entertaining, it is the kind of crap I don't like to tollerate on this forum. I'll be nuking most of it when I get a free moment, so if there is something you'd really like to have preserved for all eternity, please post here or otherwise let me know.

Regards,

[miguel angel ib]

For the record, I do not believe any one art, system, ryu etc is "better" than any other one. The difference always comes down to how a particular individual performs that particular art under different circumstances. ie: dojo, seminar, competition or the street. So to espouse one art as being better than another , to me,is a waste of time. [B]ALL of the arts have great value to the individuals who practice them and so should not be [in my belief] compared one against the other as to effectiveness. Each art also has different aspects which they emphasize at different times of one's training.

As to "ki or aiki". Tokimune Takeda has gone on record in interviews stating that "aiki" is not suitable for self defense but that jujutsu is. Keeping in mind that Daito Ryu defines aiki much defferntly than other arts if anyone would like to elucidate further on this thought I would appreciate hearing from them.

I have seen and trained with highly skilled individuals from many arts over the last 40 years.

As I've mentioned before I have footage of Tokimune Takeda and his mainline practitioners demonstrating Daito Ryu Aikbudo as well as Yonezawa Shihan[former Director of International Instruction for the Kodokai] and Shimpo Shihan, aslo from the Kodokai [Mr. Stanley Pranin has first hand knowledge of some of the issues regarding Yonezawa's true rank/titles if anyone would like to ask him]. I have asked my computer literate assistant to help me post some of this footage so that those individuals who have not seen them can at least get a taste of how these gentlemen demonstrated their respective arts.

Yes, judo contains within its scope all of the techniques shared by jujutsu/aikido practitioners. However, not all of the thousands of judo practitioners have extensive practice in these techniques since many of them are not allowed under competitive rules of combat. And yes some jujutsu practitioners do practice at least some of the judo katas which contain many of the defensive techniques common to all of us.[Goshin Jutsu, Kime-no-Kata, Nage-no-Kata, etc.] In Miyama Ryu, Shinan Pereira insisted that we practice and demonstrate same, in order to achieve our black belt ranks. As a 6th Dan in Judo he was always loyal to the Judo community.

Mr. Scott, I hope that this is more in line with what this forum is suited for and thank you and the other moderators for the opportunity to share a modest amount of experience within this limited area of martial arts practice.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone.
Miguel Ibarra

[kenkyusha]

Happy New Year to you as well.

Be well,
Jigme

[jdostie]

For the record, I do not believe any one art, system, ryu etc is "better" than any other one. The difference always comes down to how a particular individual performs that particular art under different circumstances. ie: dojo, seminar, competition or the street. So to espouse one art as being better than another , to me,is a waste of time. [B]ALL of the arts have great value to the individuals who practice them and so should not be [in my belief] compared one against the other as to effectiveness. Each art also has different aspects which they emphasize at different times of one's training.

Miguel Ibarra

Thank you sensei for your remarks here. That's precisely to the point of what I was asking, thought I was not sure what the answer would be, I had my own ideas, which you seem to confirm.

Happy new year to you as well.

[Grant Periott]

There are so many people talking DRAJ these days but few who have actually done much significant practice. I always find peoples assumptions about martial arts interesting I guess we all have our own idea of what it is.

Daito Ryu is foremost a martial art and beholden to all the things that go with that. Yes there is a spiritual side but it is not the focus, yes there is a self defence aspect but neither is that the only focus - DRAJ is a whole system which contains many levels of learning. Those who have spent many years practicing are obviously very competant at defending themselves. The thing is this competance takes time - I am a second dan in modern style of street defence jujutsu (a blend of Koryu styles and very technique based) and this took me 8 solid years training. I have however, put aside this training to study DRAJ because I can see and feel the depth in those I have had the priveledge to train with in DRAJ. A system of techniques is only as good as the practioner but an "art" develops the practitioner on a number of levels.

If you are just looking to learn arresting techniques quickly then that is what you should learn but if you seek to become a rounded martial artist then that takes time practicing the whole art.

Anyone else feel this way?

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

Just re-read this thread and wanted to apologize to the posters here for the abuse they took from "Israel Gelpi" (Izzyzx). I've been meaning to trim the majority of his BS posts out of here ASAP. Many of his responses can still be found in quoted replys, but editing all the posts is a bit ambitious.

Regards,

[Cady Goldfield]

You may want to re-check the "What is Aiki" thread he began, too. It probably could be canned entirely.

[Samurai Jack]

I don't remember where I heard or read this, but if you ask a Chinese MA what chi is you will get as many different answers as there are stars in the sky. The difficult thing is with chi, unlike stars, is determining which is the brightest (more powerful). This goes to say that chi does exists, as the oldest definition refers to chi as air/breathing, or what ever it is, but the most pressing question is in the determination or validity of it by those who say they exercise it in a martial art way.

After near labor pain suffering, I read through the Aiki war thread. I can't say that I was impressed by what I read. Reading people bicker ( mostly by many for posturing and politics) over such an abstract and unclear idea is very unattractive. The was no definitive expert or expertise, I felt, that existed in the thread to point at. I felt that a few posters like, Nathan, worked to the benefit of the thread. Yet others, insisted on forcing the idea that aiki was universal that everyone had it, well, infering that they did.

It is my understanding that the word aiki has a root connection with chi. I am sure Nathan can provide the history of that connection. I don't believe everyone has it as a skill, and I refer back to what I said about chi above. I am sure we all have it in its most non-martial application, but like any field of science or art there are levels of development. That is to say not everyone who paints is a master, a Rembrant. Not everyone who studys the cosmos is a Hawking. Sure you can appreciate or have some level of skill or understanding of such things, but it doesn't make you an expert.

The problem here is we as the general public and martial arts community have no tools to measure muchless define what aiki is or isn't. Nor do we have the tools or information to give us the ability of accurate precise judgement. We are at the mercy of our own senses. This leads to the opportunity of the old snake oil salesmen and the b.s.ers. Thus, nothing new to the martial arts world.

I guess it is buyer beware, which applies here with the idea of aiki.

[Samurai Jack]

I am skeptical by nature, and I look at martial arts like an art.


Aiki being an abstract concept that is rooted possibility in the ancient abstract concept of chi which has many meaning and applications it was planted in Japan; a culture vastly different yet similar. This makes it very difficult to pin down, define and evaluate what this thing called aiki. As I said before, there are no tools to help us to do so. I am sure there are levels that range from elementary to advance skill in its application and use. I believe the proportions of the multitude with elementary skill out weight tremendously the very few with advance skill. Therefore, I am very skeptical of those who claim they have it or understand it. I run gun shy of those who have commercial interests or personal agendas in stating such claims or understandings of what Aiki is or isn't.

I really this aiki is discussed by many who grasp at it as something like the cart coming before the horse. If you have notably outstanding skill that is almost incomprehensible to the top skilled martial artists ( not the newbies who are easily impressed by magic tricks cause we don't know any better), then you term your ability as aiki. FWIW.

[No1'sShowMonkey]

Mr. Robinson has centered on a very significant point in the aiki debate. Not only do very few people make demonstrative and definitive claims, but those claims by their very nature are making defined that which most claim as etherial at best.

Now, as I have stated in the past, I have trained for only a scant time (in aikido timeline terms) in aikido, have not done aikijujutsu of any kind that I know of and am simply a student of a goshinjutsu school. I am young and earnest, please bear with me.

Being a goshinjutsu practitioner, I feel that the directness and simplicity of the art that I study not only colors my analysis of the martial arts but also my analytical ability in general. I am concerned with that which I can reliably reproduce under "lab" conditions, where my lab is not a perfect vacuum, nor a test tube or a petry dish. My lab is a mat coated in decades of sweat, pounded on by so many bodies that to compare them is to find as myriad characteristics as the world can offer. We have thrown big guys, little guys, tough gals, wirey ones, small ones, fast ones, slow ones, tight ones, loose ones, the occasional bouncy person etc. All shapes, all sizes. They come fast, they come slow, they come however they come and we simply have whatever they give us.

The human body is built with a great deal of variety but a general plan, we all have the same joints (roughly), the same basic proportions etc. The variables of an attack are only so many: speed, angle, power and the like. Our techniques are founded in what is reproducable and effective, as should they have been found wanting when they were codified, the practitioners paid with their lives. At some point or another, our skills were tried in that crucible and we gain from their sacrifice, and pay with out own.

So, what is aiki, coming from hundreds of years of practice and toil? It is a skill of some kind that can be cultivated, from what I gather from Daito ryu reading that I have done. I would argue that I have cultivated it as best as I can, a kind of blind flailing, an intelligent guess. So, we have a skill.

What does this skill look like? Is it that which astounds us, seems almost unreal? Is it that special something that someone has that lets them do the nearly unnatural? If that were the entire truth, we not only are boxing ourselves in to an argument that is obscure, but also arcane and ultimately fruitless. We need to discuss the object itself.

Difficult, to be sure. Especially when I am so "ignorant", in a classical (aiki)educational sense. So, looking at the skill of an individual seems to spin off into the ghostly and ephemeral. Let us look instead at the intention of the arts, of combat itself. A martial art is a series of trainable skills that have as their goal the defeat of "the opponent", in some cases this is one man, armed or unarmed, others it is whole armies. But, all large conflicts boil down to micro levels, men fighting men, and thus this would seem our indellible basic component.

Defeat of the opponent relies on several constants. We must close with our enemy that we may destroy him, if that is our goal. Even if we are so altruistic as to say we want to harmonize with their aggression to neutralize it, afterall aikido is the way of aiki and we must keep such a philosophic view in mind, the result is that we must still enter, we must gain accesss to their body so that the attacker can not effectively engage us. He rendered unable through violence of action unable to overcome us.

Another, western view. Look to Clausewitz, if you will. The goal of a military action is to remove your enemies ability to make war upon us by deteriorating his will, destroying his arms and denying him the opportunity to make war. The martial arts all seek to do this. We must neutralize our opponents weapons with blocks, grabs etc. Our return techniques and strikes destroy their corpus, literally disarming at times and others explicitly disarming.

So, we have the time and place, the fight we are in, their attack (their arms, so to speak), and our removal of their ability to make war. Of the three major constituent parts mentioned before, this leaves the will.

I would contend that aiki is the study of how to deteriorate the will of your opponent in a very real and reproducable fashion as to facilitate the effecient, sudden and optionally violent resolution of combat.

So, we have a skill with a goal. What exactly does this skill do? What is "deteriorating the will of your opponent in a very real and reproducable fashion" mean?

By very real I mean that there are physical manifestations of this act; that one changes the time, place, speed and ultimately the tenor of the violence taking place so as to seize initiative and thereby render the opponent unable to continue making war.

We are large electro-chemical machines, and like any machine, if one part of our mechanics, electronics (in our case bio-chemistry, I guess) is monkeyed around with, the result will be wholistic. Without oil, an internal combustion engine does not break down only in those places lacking lubrication, the entire engine will rip itself apart and seize. There is a hermeneutic effect at work in such complex systems that is generally a constant throughout both analog (if you will) and biological machines.

This is a very simple and direct way of viewing the mental inertia, the causal intent and other very difficult to describe, nearly impossible to record, effects that are constantly running during martial practice. We are creatures designed with several basic bits of firmware in our brains (as opposed to software - experiential and learned tasks) and such programming includes phenomena like self preservation. To say that martial practices dos not interface on a very chemical level with the basic portions of our brains, I would think, is a very ignorant claim. In fact, the very concepts of mushin and emptiness present in many martial arts, the zen like hum that we attain when everything "clicks", is a result of our lower brain functions taking control and the cognative processes going the wayside. I digress.

So we are looking at a skill set that is able to reproducably and reliably modify the tactical conditions of the engagement in such a fashion that our enemy is defeated in as effecient a manner as is possible. This view allows for the manifold complexities that extend beyond the raw mechanics of "move joints as so to break" and the like. Whether or not aiki includes strategic level phenomenon such as choosing danger avoidance, interpersonal relationships not pertaining to violence etc. is debatable. I would begin discourse on this topic by saying that a thing may possess many traits of another object and be very similar but is not the object in question.

Now that we understand that aiki is something that acts on a mental (ultimately biochemical) level as well as the physical, it is prudent to understand how exactly one goes about this mental-physical affectation. Possibilities are endless, one can argue. I would not disagree. We are interested in results, and if carving a bokken out of a boat oar and very rudely showing up late to a duel constitutes the ability to change the chemical makeup of an opponent to render him unable to make war (ie, kill us), then this would technically fall under aiki. This is, however, specific and ultimately a strategic view of aiki, and as a martial skill pertaining to personal combat between two men, I would suggest that we restrict the argument to more tactical concerns (that which is reproducable). A few suggestions would include: footwork, subtle hand motions or changes of weight, off-speed timing, breaking of rhythm, "projcetion of intent" (thinking very hard and essentially letting your opponent know through body language and what probably amounts to animal language that we intend to kill or what have you), sudden pliability or hardness (in more philosophic terms: juxtaposition of expected reaction to actual action).

As mentioned earlier, we are concerned with tactical problems and thus short term. The aforementioned actions can be taken slightly before or during the engagement, even before physical contact is made. The point of contact itself being highly stressed. Our fastest method of stimulus is direct touch sensation (I think? can anyone back this up for me?), it would be impertinent and vulgar to say that the first moment of contact is not one where an incredible amount of sense data is synthesized between combatants, and it is generally at this point of contact that each participant has a "clean slate" of sorts with which to change the situation with the must subtle shifts that will produce the most significant changes in their opponent - this is to say, a decisive action.

The sensitivity required to perform such feats is incredible and took me years to become even aware of, the lummox that I am. Just being aware of such an opportunity does not in any way insinuate that I have the skills necessary yet to even exploit this resource. I would argue that this is a point (the nearly verticle learning curve, I guess) wherein a great deal of the mysticism related to aiki comes from. If a practice is difficult, it is easy to be idealized, demonized and changed from a simple issue that is at once basic and complex and turned into a great enigma, a grand narrative that self conciously creates purpose. I digress yet again.

So. We have a tactical concern that results in a series of often physical changes to the combat which allow us to remove or neutralize our enemy's ability to make war on us. This generally constitutes but is not limited precisely to basic physical and mental actions.

Aiki is begining to take shape.

It is a rough shape, with many empty signifieds. What I mean when I say this is that there are plenty of blanks in which a practitioner may insert whatever they please. This would explain the huge difference in opinion on the subject and at the same time gets at what is probably the most important art of aiki. Aiki is essentially a force which embodies a creative and motive force, it is that which is quite literally alive; quicksilver in our veins.

I am reminded of the Life Giving Sword. That an ultimately violent and life destroying concept terminates in a life affirming one is truly sublime. Sublimity by its very nature defies the limits of human conception, perception and reason. See A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful by Edmund Burke for further reading on the topic of the sublime.

It should not surprise us that aiki is at once a very real thing, we feel it, we perform it, we use it, it is not foreign to us. Yet at the same time, there is a tendency to discuss aiki in spiritual terms; in generally imprecise and emotive ways that are surprisingly uninformed by the simplicity and directness of the arts that we train in.

Martial arts seek effeciency and truth. There is no lying when under the edge of a sword, in the vaccuum before a bullet. There is a right answer and a wrong, a precise distance and failure. Life and death. We strive endlessly, tirelessly to cut the fat from our actions, to find what is truly essential. We seek the Truth. Aiki, perhaps, is that which finds the truth.

- Chris McGaw

[No1'sShowMonkey]

Anticipating several points of contention, debate and confusion:

Q: So after all that blabbing, what is aiki? Why that definition?
A: As I said: I would contend that aiki is the study of how to deteriorate the will of your opponent in a very real and reproducible fashion as to facilitate the efficient, sudden and optionally violent resolution of combat.

I choose the will because it is the least physical and concrete of the arms, opportunity and will trio. If I am speaking about the literal destruction of arms, where the steel meets the flesh, I am talking about kenjutsu or where the bones break, jujutsu etc. If I am concerned with the where and when of an engagement, the Opportunity to fight itself, I am concerned with a strategic element and am outside of the bounds of what combat between men is, as I see it.

The above definition remains broad enough to encompass many strategies at once, but still precise enough that it is not a mystery, platitude, aphorism, spritual object or the like. The above definition can produce a skillset which is practicable and thus transmittable from teacher to student, an important characteristic in lineage obsessed martial arts. There are instances that can be isolated and trained, responses ingrained and practiced that quite literally act on the will itself.

Q: Why the existential leap at the end?
A: I find it interesting that studying the kanji of iaido that I came across a definition of iai as sitting, to remain or stay. A [i]to be verb. It is concerned with what it is to exist, or to be present. I would say that the martial arts boil down to "not dying", and that this goal necessarily removes all of that which is in excess, unnecessary and wasteful.

If something were truly wasteful, at some point the bell shall toll for thee; there will be a fraction of an inch too far or too short and your life will leave you in a crimson stain. Suppositions: Obviously, everyone makes mistakes, but the ideal is to train to perfection, yes? The perfection of existence is existence rather than nonexistence, yes? It is better to be than not to be? It is nearly impossible to argue the converse as it results in pure self-abnegation. A silly task to set oneself to in terms of augmentation.

What follows, for me at least, is that martial arts (if iaido is a martial art? if the lessons of iaido are not purely a result of what iaido is but can be said to exist in other arts?) refine the ability of an individual to become present.

This is a very (literally) existential topic, one of several writers: Husserl, Heidegger (oh, Germans!), and Sartre for example. Phenomenologists and Existentialists, respectively.

Sub question: What does this have to do with aiki, then?

Everything. The philosophic turnings must have a physical output in the martial arts, or they are not pertaining to martial arts. Conversely, the physical aspects of the art thereby reinforce the philosophic portions. They are inextricably linked. The sensitivity to an opponent, the sixth sense of sorts, is touching that creative, motive, life affirming force in a way. One must affirm their own existence, become truly and completely present, to be able to do this well. Becoming more present cuts through the intense amounts of complete !!!!!!!! and !!!!!!ido that our brains create if they are allowed the freedom to run free for even a split second. Our minds get into the way of our martial practice, so we remove them: mushin. The same is true of raw presence: the mind categorizes, builds and orders where there were no lines, walls, rules or containers before. It is a very imperialistic animal, the human brain. It wants constantly to tell us "Here I AM! I am important! REASON IS WHAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE FOR!". This changes fundamentally the information that we are receiving, we process it... we (our personalities, the ego) change it. The excess that is the ego must be removed to become fully present.

Becoming fully present, then, is receiving data without any extra packing, no waste, no filth or fanfare. It is, essentially, the truth.

I am reminded of an anecdote about the legendary masters of Bagua who were so in tune with the Way, that they became creatures of immense power, at one with the Tao. Truth and fantasy not withstanding, there certainly seems to be a link?

Enough of this nonsense, I am off to bed. I realize that I am speaking mostly to myself, and this is intensely helpful, writing all of this down. Perhaps I should have chosen to keep this private? At a certain point, I need to put it out for colleagues and others to challenge to find out if I am crazy or on to something. :)

- Chris McGaw

[Ron Tisdale]

Yikes!

Best,
Ron

[Cady Goldfield]

I try to stay away from the keyboard when I've had too much sugar. ;)

[john_lord_b3]

This is a very (literally) existential topic, one of several writers: Husserl, Heidegger (oh, Germans!), and Sartre for example. Phenomenologists and Existentialists, respectively.

One must affirm their own existence, become truly and completely present, to be able to do this well. Becoming more present cuts through the intense amounts of complete !!!!!!!! and !!!!!!ido that our brains create if they are allowed the freedom to run free for even a split second. Our minds get into the way of our martial practice, so we remove them: mushin. The same is true of raw presence: the mind categorizes, builds and orders where there were no lines, walls, rules or containers before. It is a very imperialistic animal, the human brain. It wants constantly to tell us "Here I AM! I am important! REASON IS WHAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE FOR!". This changes fundamentally the information that we are receiving, we process it...

Becoming fully present, then, is receiving data without any extra packing, no waste, no filth or fanfare. It is, essentially, the truth.


Upon reading the interesting, thought-provoking pieces above, I instantly remind myself that the purpose of martial arts training is not (in modern times anyway) to fulfill the fantasy of becoming the modern-day version of Popeye, but to show the world that I exist, I exist through the training, whose goal is to improve myself, so that I am not merely exist, but alive and growing, evolving into a better (more or less) state of being.



Enough of this nonsense, I am off to bed. I realize that I am speaking mostly to myself, and this is intensely helpful, writing all of this down. Perhaps I should have chosen to keep this private? At a certain point, I need to put it out for colleagues and others to challenge to find out if I am crazy or on to something. :)

- Chris McGaw

Naah.. as a person with a little training in Psychology, I am sure you're not crazy.. yet :) At least you're as crazy as I am, which means that we're crazy enough to invite strange looks from our beloved friends, but not enough to land ourselves into a lengthy and expensive sessions with Sigmund Freud. ;)